Loss of Blessings?

[Mute]

The fact that a horrible outcome isn't always the result, is sufficient justification to not be against something? Does that hold true for other things like espionage and child pornography? Those things don't always end up with a universal situation which applies to everyone who does it either.

And I'd also like to point out that yes indeed, just about every single child out there born out of wedlock, was also conceived out of wedlock. Not all, but most.

LM

No. It's more complicated than that. I don't believe many things are wrong unless they cause harm to someone other than yourself and even then there are circumstances where I would not view it as wrong if you did harm someone else. There are circumstances for each situation to take into account as to whether I'd view it as wrong or not.

Does the fact that a horrible outcome is always the result sufficient justification to to call something a sin or wrong? I wouldn't tell someone to touch an electric fence but I wouldn't consider it wrong if they did. Touching a hot stove isn't wrong. It's unwise but it's not wrong. There are consequences and high risks involved. You could end up losing your life if you touch an electric fence or end up with a severe burn if you touch a hot stove.

It is not the act of premarital sex which I find wrong. However, I might find some of the actions some people may take prior to or following premarital sex as wrong. For example, if someone failed to tell their partner they had a std or lied about being single when really they were married, I'd find that wrong. From my understanding, the man in the link you gave did not bother to find out if there was a child born. That action I would find wrong.

Eating too many french fries or not brushing your teeth often enough, can have bad outcomes. I don't find it a sin to do it though. I don't consider it wrong. I consider it some what unwise. It has risks involved. You might gain a cavity or gain too much weight. It's still your choice and it doesn't affect others.

As far as espionage goes, I don't really consider that wrong. I don't know why you would either considering they did that in the Book of Mormon.

Alma

Chapter 43

30 And he also knowing that it was the only desire of the Nephites to preserve their lands, and their liberty, and their church, therefore he thought it no sin that he should defend them by stratagem; therefore, he found by his spies which course the Lamanites were to take.

Child pornography I would consider wrong. I would consider it wrong because the child isn't developed enough to even want to participate in those actions unless an adult tried to force them to for their own selfish pleasures. It has no benefit for the child that I can see. Children are not old enough to make a choice like that imo unless someone over "encouraged" them or forced them. It's not consenting people. You're taking advantage of a child 100% of the time. However having consenting adults does not always make something ok imo. Child pornography is honestly not a subject I've really put a lot of thought into. It's not a controversial subject except among child molesters in NAMBLA. Virtually everyone agrees that it is wrong.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Mute
Fixed a typo

[Angel_eyes1980]

Hi I am not sure if I can say something here.. if it is wrong please feel free to delete this.

My friend who I needed the advice for, is one of the nicest loveliest people I have ever met, she spent nearly ten years trying for a family and was eventually blessed with twins, that she conceived with medical help. She is not rich and had a modest home, but she donated her time and craft skills to help those less fortunate.

She had forgiven her husband for his indiscretions, the full extent of them were not known to her. She never ever knew that there was a child involved. And 16 years later she finds out her husband was not entirely truthful and her whole world has fallen apart.

And she feels like she is the one being punished for something she never knew about.

If you could see my beautiful friend who used to light up the room with her presence, her kindness and generousity of spirit today, you wouldn't have to ask the question why is pre-marital sex wrong. Her whole spirit is so crushed. And she feels like she has been lied to for 16 years.

But God is not a vending machine... he doesn't give you this because you have done that. If that were true my friend wouldn't have to go through this horrible pain.

How would you feel if your future husband admitted to you 16 years after the event that he might have a child by another woman that he has never seen or made any attempt to see, and then blamed it on you and your church?

It is so tragic and could so easily been avoided...

[rameumptom]

Often in the Old Testament, you'll see comments regarding kings of Judah and Israel, who were good to the people, but not unto themselves spiritually.

So there are levels of good and evil. We need to ensure we not only treat others properly, but also ensure we are serving God for love of God and love for ourselves.

[Mute]

Hi I am not sure if I can say something here.. if it is wrong please feel free to delete this.

My friend who I needed the advice for, is one of the nicest loveliest people I have ever met, she spent nearly ten years trying for a family and was eventually blessed with twins, that she conceived with medical help. She is not rich and had a modest home, but she donated her time and craft skills to help those less fortunate.

She had forgiven her husband for his indiscretions, the full extent of them were not known to her. She never ever knew that there was a child involved. And 16 years later she finds out her husband was not entirely truthful and her whole world has fallen apart.

And she feels like she is the one being punished for something she never knew about.

If you could see my beautiful friend who used to light up the room with her presence, her kindness and generousity of spirit today, you wouldn't have to ask the question why is pre-marital sex wrong. Her whole spirit is so crushed. And she feels like she has been lied to for 16 years.

But God is not a vending machine... he doesn't give you this because you have done that. If that were true my friend wouldn't have to go through this horrible pain.

How would you feel if your future husband admitted to you 16 years after the event that he might have a child by another woman that he has never seen or made any attempt to see, and then blamed it on you and your church?

It is so tragic and could so easily been avoided...

I'm not sure I entirely understand your post. When did your friend's husband have relations with another woman? Was this at the start of your friend's marriage to him? Was it while they were dating or was it before they had even met? If it was while they were dating or while being married, then I would most likely not think it's ok for him to have had sexual relations with another woman. People generally have an understanding in a relationship that you are not supposed to cheat on the other if you want that relationship to continue. Unless both parties in a relationship consent to allowing one another to have sexual relations with another person, then I would consider that cheating and there for wrong and disrespectful.

If your friend's husband had this child with another woman before he even met your friend, then I would not consider anything he did wrong other than neglecting to find out if there was a child born. I feel he should have tried to find that out and told your friend about it before being married. I would want to know something like that before I made the choice to marry someone especially if your friend asked him about it before marriage. If he knew about it and lied then the lying I would find wrong too. However, the woman he had sexual relations with, you said was unwilling to tell them who the father was. So you may never know if your friend's husband is the father or not. So what's the point in worrying about it until the lady is willing to reveal who the father is?

[Backroads]

I guess I would see, in that case, that a wife might want to know about any prior children. It's something of a lie of omission. A man has another kid that he knows about and doesn't tell a prospective partner? That's a little weird to me.

However, I agree with Mute that if the child had happened before he had began dating her, I don't think he did anything wrong to her.

I guess I really do agree with Mute on a purely secular level. I know many religions, Christian and not, who do believe in chastity before marriage for various reasons, but if that's not an issue, then responsible sex comes into play.

I do not approve of teenagers having sex. I don't care if they are using protection or how much they love each other. Things can STILL happen and I don't think teenagers are ready for that. Don't have sex if you can't handle the worst-case scenario. I also do not think abortion is an acceptable form of birth control. I do not think cheating on a significant other is okay. I do not think recreational sex is okay (again, are the people of a one-night stand ready to accept the worst-case scenario?)

I do not think Mute ever once here advocated any kind of irresponsible sex.

[SaturdayLove]

Sorry... I haven't been on here for quite a long time, Due to end of School Exams and other things... I have been reading through these posts now and one of them ..... I have to find it again did mention something I wanted to know.....

[SaturdayLove]

I think it's a mistake to think of God as a vending machine. "I do something right, I get a blessing. I do something wrong, I don't get a blessing." It misses the point of complying with God's will and making the most of the plan of salvation. It also makes no sense in the light of what you observe around you.

Fundamentally, the objective of our experience on earth is exaltation. How am I going to transform my natural self into an exalted woman? How do I access the atonement? How will I become more like God?

What you see also exposes the idiocy of the idea that righteousness will bring worldly success. Getting a great job isn't always a blessing from God. Being popular isn't always a blessing from God. Some things just happen because of the nature of the world. The other side of this is that crappy things aren't punishments from God. Lost your job? I don't think God did that to you. Lose your boyfriend? I don't think God did that to you. Get sick? I don't think God did that to you.

I find more peace when I focus less on getting, and more on becoming.

I don't see God as a vending machine. Though I do think it's unfair that even though I follow God's rules most of the time... I find my self in worse positions than those who are atheists... I think that people who are Christians, particualy Mormons should get the best of EVERYTHING... since we are Latterday saints... I guess in some ways on top of all other religions... and those who don't believe in God should suffer.... I mean if the Atheists are better of than Christians... what's the point of believing in God... The whole point of praying and believing is that you can receive that what you want... and if there's those who get everything with out believing in God .... than really... what's the point... In that case you're much better off in making your own luck aren't you?? Like robbing a bank or Marrying a rich man.... I don't know... I just think that the whole Point of Following God is that you're suppose to be rewarded more and are better than those who don't believe

[ryanh]

I don't see God as a vending machine.

In my mind, the above snip doesn't quite mesh with the snip below.

I just think that the whole Point of Following God is that you're suppose to be rewarded more and are better than those who don't believe

Why are you praying for “things” and otherwise so focused on your comparative position to others? It does seem that you think God is a vending machine there to hand out temporal blessings in immediate response for obedience.

I generally try to be as kind as thoughtful as I can on these boards. Sometimes though, I really want to grab someone by the shoulders and speak bluntly as it seems a poster isn't otherwise going to grasp it. Your post Saturday is just such a post.

What I see is an immature and selfish "what's in it for me" whining attitude. It seems to me that your heart is very much set upon the things of the world.

Elder Maxwell used to point out that the "thou shalt not" commandments are protective commandments. In other words, God gave them to us to shield us from pain and difficulties. Either you believe that God is real, and does care about us, and therefore following His commandments is in our best interest, or you can decide you don't believe in God, and know better for yourself.

But I fear for you as it seem you misunderstand, or do not have a testimony of, what God is, what the purpose of this life is, and how to find true happiness.

If you want to sleep around, go for it. No one here is going to say you can’t choose for yourself. But, you have already been warned of the spiritual dangers. It may not hurt tomorrow, it may not hurt next year, but eventually, the day of reckoning will come, and you will pay the price. Some people are wise enough to learn from others. Yet other people are not so bright and have to fall themselves to learn that others were right. I hope you figure that out while you still have a chance to repent.

[NeuroTypical]

It's not about being better than other people. It's about being a better person than you were yesterday.

And part of this life is trials and tribulations. They can be good for us.

[SaturdayLove]

But I fear for you as it seem you misunderstand, or do not have a testimony of, what God is, what the purpose of this life is, and how to find true happiness.

you must know everything,... please feel free to fill me in on them

[mightynancy]

To repeat, it's not about what you get, it's about who you become.

K, I'm a pretty good person. I wanted more than anything to have a baby. It took a long time, I suffered losses of pregnancies that were slow in coming. I was heartbroken. I could have asked, "Why is this happening to me when I'm keeping the commandments?" and made myself miserable, because there is no answer to that. What I did do, and I'm glad I did, was ask myself, "What gifts will this experience bring to me?" Now, I'm not exactly glad that I went through that, and it was still a painful experience, but I am indeed glad for the changes the experience brought to my character.

The idea that obedience brings immediate temporal blessings is thin ice. Because if you believe that, then you'd have to believe that trials are a result of disobedience. Some are, but the majority of the time, it's just crud that happens as a result of how this world works. Our job is to use them to refine our souls.

[Avrham]

I find when you start following other peoples standards or expectations(worldly or habits)it tends to direct my thoughts else where(on others) instead of what is in front of me especially being grateful for what I do have>The only standards that really matter is my realtionship with Christ:):)