Surety of salvation? or can Christians really not lose their salvation?

[MrShorty]

I expect there are many who will jump to quick conclusions about this question. Please read on and let me explain the question before jumping to conclusions.

I was listening to James McDonald's radio show this morning ("Walk in the Word"). Commenting on Hebrews 4:14, he highlighted the phrase "let us hold fast our profession." I hope I'm not misrepresenting what he said, but he seemed to be saying that one needs to "hold fast [his] profession" or "persevere in the faith" to obtain salvation -- those who don't (those who allow faith to die or otherwise aren't diligent in their faith) will be turned away.

I have frequently reflected on how outright denial might affect salvation. There's a certain logic in my mind that, if salvation is obtained by faith, then a denial of that faith ("I no longer believe that Christ is my Savior and reject his sacrifice for my sin.") would cause a Christian to lose his salvation. Scripture teaches that, if we deny Christ, He will deny us (2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 10:33).

I guess my question comes down to this: Is it enough to have had sufficient faith in Christ to be saved at any point between birth and death and what happens to our faith before or after that point is of no consequence as far as our personal salvation? Or can salvation be lost if our faith atrophies/dies/falls below a threshold? Can salvation be lost if we deny Christ after having accepted Him as Savior?

[prisonchaplain]

From my non-LDS, "free will" POV, salvation can be lost, just as you suggest--by denying or neglecting to death the faith. On the other hand, scripture also tells us that God will go after us, wooing us back. So, truly losing salvation is hard. You almost have to work at it. The most dangerous track would be to neglect salvation--to take it for granted. God will invite us back, but He will not force us.

[rameumptom]

I think PC said it very well. Also, in LDS teachings we believe in levels or kingdoms of salvation. We may at one point in our life be faithful enough to enter into the Celestial Kingdom, but then if we drift from that faithfulness and commit grave sin (adultery, murder, etc), then we may lose the greater glory.

But we may also strive to regain our faithfulness through prayer, repentance, and diligently seeking the Lord.

While PC may not believe in multiple heavens, many traditional Christians believe there are many levels of rewards available to the saved. He may agree with this viewpoint, as well.

[MrShorty]

PC, How prevalent would you say your view is among Evangelical Christians? I ask because it seems that the view I have been presented on this subject has almost always been a "once saved always saved" kind of view. Is "once saved always saved" more prevalent, or just more vocal?

[prisonchaplain]

I recently read that amongst ministers the view I expressed is a slight majority one. Not so in generations past. When my denomination joined the National Association of Evangelicals, back in the 1940s, one of the marks against us was our free will perspective. Today, we are the largest denomination in that movement. Also, my observation is that most non-denominational churches agree with me.

Those that ascribe to "Once Saved Always Saved" tend to be known as Calvinist or Reformed. I understand that this perspective is gaining some ground amongst Baptists, though many of them are still free will.

I am surprised that you are encountering these other folk more, though. Usually those that follow the OSAS doctrine, also believe that God predestined who would be saved. So, I would expect that it's the free will Christians who are the most outspoken about trying to save souls.

[MrShorty]

I am surprised that you are encountering these other folk more, though. Usually those that follow the OSAS doctrine, also believe that God predestined who would be saved. So, I would expect that it's the free will Christians who are the most outspoken about trying to save souls.

I should admit that my social circle has never included many Evangelicals. The few I have talked to personally about religion were trying to "evangelize" me (if that is the right phrase), so it seemed that there whole purpose was to strongly "highlight" the differences between Mormons and Evangelicals in hopes that I would deny Mormonism. As such, I'm not sure my impressions from those kind of conversations are very accurate. Outside of that small sample, what I hear on this kind of topic is filtered through other Mormons and, just as I see Mormon theology "misrepresented" or "misunderstood" in Christian circles, I don't completely trust other Mormon's to objectively, accurately, and clearly give an accurate picture of Christian theology. I guess that's why I like this forum here on LDS.net. It's a relatively safe place for me to ask these kind of questions so I can disabuse myself of those misconceptions.

[rameumptom]

PC,

My Baptist minister friends tell me that most of their seminaries now teach Calvinist theory. It seems that we'll be seeing more and more of the TULIP variety as things go along.

[ashleybstarr]

From a former Baptist/Pentecostal view( which also seems to vary from church to church in different areas) Salvation is never lost unless you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. As it has been explained to me by church elders ( though this explanation varies too) this is to mean that you know that Christ died for your sins, you know it is the way to salvation and you reject it. So in my area ( BC Canada) most here that I know of do not believe you lose your salvation. I personally don't know what I believe but that is why I am here :)

[LDSChristian]

I'm looking up this very thing so I thought I'd answer. I wouldn't say you can't lose your salvation. Someone brought up blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. If you proclaim Christ as your Savior but later blaspheme against the Holy Ghost you lose your salvation because Christ taught this is an unforgivable sin.

2 Sam. 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

[MrShorty]

"Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" seems to be an interesting topic. As Ashley suggested, I'm not sure how much consensus there is. For example, among the references Google gave were some who felt that Christ has to be physically in front of you in order to commit this sin (which means no one is capable of committing this sin at present). Others had other ideas.

[prisonchaplain]

The understanding of blaspheming the Holy Spirit that I have is that it is a repeated rejection of the Holy Spirit's calling/wooing to the point where the heart is so hard it can no longer even hear the Spirit. Thus, when Jesus mentioned this sin--to Phariseees--he was being cautionary. Even these enemies of his, who had just accused him of casting out demons by using demonic power, had not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Rather, Jesus said they were in danger of doing so. This is why I say losing salvation is hard. It generally comes with repeated rejection, not a one-time failure.

[jayanna]

When I think about the 'once saved always saved' belief, I always here the following scripture ringing in my head:

Matthew 7:21 (also found in 3 Nephi 14:21)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Here is something else I have found on this topic in the New Testament: please read along in your scriptures, so you know I'm reading what I say I'm reading:

in Acts Chapter 8 There is a man named Simon, who had previously performed sorcery and fooled the poeple...in verse 13 we read that Simon believed the gospel and was baptized...

Later he saw the Apostles giving someone the Holy Ghost and offered them money to buy this gift, in verse 18...

And then Peter tells him to 1. repent in verse 22, and 2. ask for forgiveness After he had been baptized...this shows an example that one can sin, repent, and recieve forgiveness after having been baptized and confessing a belief in Christ.

[prisonchaplain]

From a former Baptist/Pentecostal view( which also seems to vary from church to church in different areas) Salvation is never lost unless you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. As it has been explained to me by church elders ( though this explanation varies too) this is to mean that you know that Christ died for your sins, you know it is the way to salvation and you reject it. So in my area ( BC Canada) most here that I know of do not believe you lose your salvation. I personally don't know what I believe but that is why I am here :)

Would that make you bapticostal?

BTW, here is the official statement from the Assemblies of God...which would likely be identical to the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4178_security.pdf

[jaiotu]

As a confessional Baptist (1689 London Confession,) I hold to the view that Regeneration and Salvation are states from which no true Christian can ever be divorced from. These are solely the gifts of God that are unmerited. Just as we can do nothing to earn Salvation, we can do nothing to loose it since we never deserved it to begin with.

God, who perfectly saves, also grants those whom he saves with the perseverance to continue to walk according to the spirit... not that the Christian cannot temporarily enter into a state of Sin that might cause him or her to question their own salvation... but God uses these circumstances to bring the Christian back into a state of repentance and relationship with Him.

There are those, however, who give the outward appearance to being a Christian who have never truly repented and been regenerated by God. These false converts were never truly saved. Many people express a desire to be saved from Hell but they never have a true desire to be saved from their sin and submit to Christ as Master. The Sheep and the Goats, the Wheat and the Tares, etc.

[jaiotu]

What is the Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit?

I think that it is the rejection of the Spirit's testimony that Jesus is the Christ.

All those who die without believing the Spirit's testimony of the Son have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are under eternal condemnation. No one whom God has saved can blaspheme the Holy Spirit and no one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit could ever have truly been saved.

[madeleine1]

We cannot save ourselves. Christ died for all, reconciling all of humanity to the Father. This is irrevocable. Jesus Christ is triumphant.

We are commanded to love God, but this will never be forced, as what kind of love is forced? We have free will, and are free to follow Jesus Christ in truth and love, or not.

[rameumptom]

Madeleine,

I think we all agree that we cannot save ourselves. That said, do you believe, as some Christians do, that "once saved, always saved"? Can a person fall from grace? Or is Calvin's irresistible grace in play, where those chosen have no choice but to be saved?

[madeleine1]

Madeleine,

I think we all agree that we cannot save ourselves. That said, do you believe, as some Christians do, that "once saved, always saved"? Can a person fall from grace? Or is Calvin's irresistible grace in play, where those chosen have no choice but to be saved?

hi-

All of humankind has been saved. All will be judged according to what they do know, understand about God and how they live according to their understanding.

For the idea of "falling from grace". For Catholics we repent of our sins and ask for God's forgiveness and through the Mercy of Jesus Christ are reconciled. This is not a "re-saving", as Christ died once, for all. It is a reconciliation.

[jaiotu]

Madeline1;

If you believe that all of human kind HAS been saved, do you therefore believe that everyone will go to heaven? If not, then what has everyone been saved FROM? If so, then what about Jesus' own extensive teachings on Hell? Your answer has me confused...

[madeleine1]

Madeline1;

If you believe that all of human kind HAS been saved, do you therefore believe that everyone will go to heaven? If not, then what has everyone been saved FROM? If so, then what about Jesus' own extensive teachings on Hell? Your answer has me confused...

We have been saved from death. The Christian doctrine of original sin:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Christ died for all....

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

2 Corinthians 14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

We are then called to be free from sin in order to stand clean before God. But we cannot do this alone. Through Jesus Christ, we are forgiven of our sins, and strengthened by Him.

Who will be judged to be with God in heaven? That is up to God, when we stand before Him at judgment day. Catholic theology certainly holds to the teachings of Jesus', that He will separate the sheep and the goats. However, there have been more than one Catholic theologian who held a well-thought out opinion that by the grace of Jesus Christ, hell would be empty. As an example, Jesus prayed that those who killed him be forgiven. Certainly we believe the Father gives what is asked of by the Son. In this, we see the abounding grace of Jesus Christ. But as I said, we can't say as we are not the Judge.

Edited March 15, 2011 by madeleine1

[jaiotu]

Madeline1;

Paul's statements in Romans 5 seem to indicate that some are dead in Adam, while others are alive in Christ, not that those who are dead in Adam are also alive in Christ. You seem to be equivocating around the question of universalism. Regardless of what some Catholic theologians have states regarding universal salvation, what I am asking is "where do you stand?"

If all men are saved, and Hell is emptied, then what is the profit of Christ's Great Commission to reach the lost? If the lost are actually saved, then why even reach them with the message of Salvation in Christ?

[madeleine1]

That is your thoughts on Romans.

Not equivocating. It is clear that Christ established the Kingdom of God on earth. Entry is through baptism, yet, it is also clear that all we be judged according to what we know. ie, we can't be judged for something we are not aware of.

It should also be understood that Catholics are very community centered. God has shown that he works through a chosen people. The Hebrews were saved as a people. Those who are baptized are the people of God, yet, we are clearly taught there is no such thing as "other".

Christ died for all of humanity. Everyone. No one is exempt from God's love. This is Catholic doctrine.

So the question then becomes one of judgment. With a view to the graces given to us by Jesus Christ, universal salvation is not that great of a leap. The Church takes a view that it cannot be ruled out, as seen on the statement on the possibility of salvation for infants who have not been baptized. There are tensions seen, such as, baptism is required for entry into the Kingdom of God, yet, the affect of Cross cannot be reduced to "rule following".

Catholic doctrine is based on what has been revealed and what has been handed on from the Apostles through time. Jesus Christ is our definitive Revelation.

The final thing for myself, since you ask is, I adhere to the teachings of the Apostles. Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. No, I am not perfect, but I believe Jesus has given many gifts to us. I look to the Church He established and the Sacraments and graces of the Holy Spirit. So I rely on Him, seeking to do His will, as preparation for the day of my own judgment.

Why reach out to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ? In order that people may be brought to the Love of God, and become part of His Kingdom, a chosen people, under the reign of Christ, our King. That is the great imperative, the building of the Kingdom of God on earth. Turning all hearts and minds to Jesus Christ.

Peace.

Edited March 15, 2011 by madeleine1

[jaiotu]

Madeline1;

Thanks for the reply.

Of course, as a Reformed Baptist, I disagree with many of your views (and the Roman Catholic Church's views.)

But I do find it interesting to hear opposing viewpoints.

I've read the Catholic Catechism regarding Hell, and I can find no way to read it in which Universal Salvation can be the remotest of possibilities. The Catechism seems to affirm the reality of Hell and that those whom die in Mortal Sin will be imprisoned there for eternity.

It seems that to do away with the doctrine of Hell is not only contrary to the teachings of the Apostles, but it is Contrary to the teachings of the Saviour Himself as we see recorded in the Holy Scriptures.

As the Catholic Catechism states, "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, 'eternal fire.' The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

That seems to be the official teaching of your Church... so I'd ask you if that is what you believe, or do you believe that the Catholic Catechism itself does not reflect the teaching of the Apostles and that you must look to some other source for that teaching?

Bless

[madeleine1]

jaiotu-

I assumed I was not speaking to Catholics here, on a LDS board. :) Catholics walk a line in between assuming God will forgive them for everything, or, assuming God can't forgive them for 'X (or anything)'. The latter, an assumption that God cannot forgive, is a sin against the Holy Spirit. So that is indeed, very grave. We also don't assume, in our faith journey, that we can do whatever we like and just go to confession, as that in itself is the sin of presumption.

We accept the graces of God, fully, and find healing in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But then we let it go, understanding and believing that God has forgiven us. (When a person is unable to believe they are forgiven, they may be suffering from scrupulosity. But that would be a different subject for another day.)

We understand very well that when we sin, again, it is by the grace of God that we are forgiven through Jesus Christ. We need Jesus Christ, in our lives, as we cannot perfect ourselves.

For non-Catholics, it is a different matter, since how can someone who has never been taught be culpable for something they do not know? How can a person be in a state of mortal sin if they are not aware that 'X' is a sin?

As I said, it is Catholic doctrine that all will be judged according to their understanding of God and how they follow this understanding. This includes Catholics. This teaching is stated in the CCC.

Last, I recommend this address from Pope John Paul II:

All Salvation Comes through Christ

Peace.

Edited March 16, 2011 by madeleine1

[jaiotu]

Thanks Madeliene1!

I appreciate your taking the time to clarify. Being Reformed, my understanding is quite opposite from yours, so I wanted to take the time to understand what you are saying more fully. Honestly, I'm not quite sure I understand where you're coming from, but I appreciate your taking the time to address my questions all the same.