Predicting The Rapture

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

There are fundamental differences in how evangelicals and certain Christians view what is called the Rapture from what the LDS understand. Evangelicals teach (Prisonchaplain can correct me if I am wrong) that several years before the second coming - all worthy Christians will be removed from earth and not suffer any of the trials just prior to when Jesus will return. The LDS view is that as Jesus manifests himself in power and great glory - the covenant saints that have remained loyal during the worse of trials will be caught up in the glory of Christ’s coming to meet him in his full glory.

The Traveler

That sounds an awful lot like what we believe. The pretribulation rapture, aside from being responsible for this May 21 rapture lunacy, robs the saints of the opportunity to stand for Christ when it counts the most, under the most horrendous of persecutions. Where are these people's trust, the ones that want to be whisked away before they experience any cost for standing for Christ? I have absolutely no fear of the coming tribulations because I know I will never be abandoned and I know who will win.

[prisonchaplain]

That sounds an awful lot like what we believe. The pretribulation rapture, aside from being responsible for this May 21 rapture lunacy, robs the saints of the opportunity to stand for Christ when it counts the most, under the most horrendous of persecutions. Where are these people's trust, the ones that want to be whisked away before they experience any cost for standing for Christ? I have absolutely no fear of the coming tribulations because I know I will never be abandoned and I know who will win.

Where is my trust??? It's in Christ! You seem to imply that believing in the Rapture is escapism. However, if the Great Tribulation is viewed as a time of God's judgment, then why would his prepared church have to be a part of it. If we have become that bride without spot or wrinkle, washed in the blood of the Lamb, then, of course, we would be spared God's wrath upon the earth. Additionally, we do believe that many who have observed the faithfulness of God's people, will repent, following the Rapture, and that they will indeed stand for Christ. Those who convert during the Tribulation will likely face decapitation for standing true to Christ, rather than giving in to Antichrist worship. So, it's not as if the world will not have a witness. BUT...the faithful will not be judged, for they are innocent, due to Christ's blood.

This is not triumphalism or escapism. It is our understanding of Scripture--of Christ's promises. I'm a bit disappointed at the subtle accusation that I lack trust because I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Where is my trust??? It's in Christ! You seem to imply that believing in the Rapture is escapism.

That's the word I was looking for, Reverend, thank you. The pretribulation belief is escapism.

However, if the Great Tribulation is viewed as a time of God's judgment, then why would his prepared church have to be a part of it.

Since when is it a time of judgement. Are the bowls of judgement being poured out here? It's a time of testing.

If we have become that bride without spot or wrinkle, washed in the blood of the Lamb, then, of course, we would be spared God's wrath upon the earth.

I take great comfort in knowing I will be spared the wrath of God that will befall humanity after the tribulation. There's one thing that's missing in Protestant eschatology, and that's the concept that we are a royal priesthood. You know and cite the verse from Peter's epistle, but you don't fully understand what it means. We are part of the ancient priesthood of the New Covenant according to the order of Melchizadek of which Christ is high priest. Our priesthood is superior to that of Aaron to the point that even Abraham paid tithes to Melchizadek. We plead for the sins of the world before the Father, being enjoined in Christ's ongoing intercessorship and we represent God to the world. That's what a priesthood does. Now what happens if you remove the priesthood that intercedes for the world?

Put another way, what happens when you remove the priesthood that stands the gap between a sinful world and the wrath they so richly have incurred?

This is exactly why Jesus compared the last days to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Once the righteous are removed, the wrath of God falls undiluted. The reprobate at that point have no representation. Abraham is no longer pleading the cause of Sodom.

Additionally, we do believe that many who have observed the faithfulness of God's people, will repent, following the Rapture, and that they will indeed stand for Christ. Those who convert during the Tribulation will likely face decapitation for standing true to Christ, rather than giving in to Antichrist worship.

. Tribulation Force? Sounds like that statement was taken right out of the Left Behind books.

This is not triumphalism or escapism. It is our understanding of Scripture--of Christ's promises. I'm a bit disappointed at the subtle accusation that I lack trust because I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

Yes, I do view it as a lack of trust. And moreover, nothing in Scripture backs up the pretrib, dispensationalist position and in fact it's quite deftly refuted in 2 Thess chapter 2, a chapter that pretribs studiously ignore. Pretribbers will come to the truth when they realize that the tribulation is happening and the Lord still tarries. Will it shatter their faith, or will they finally learn to trust?

[JohnnyRudick]

. . .

Yes, I do view it as a lack of trust. And moreover, nothing in Scripture backs up the pretrib, dispensationalist position and in fact it's quite deftly refuted in 2 Thess chapter 2, a chapter that pretribs studiously ignore. Pretribbers will come to the truth when they realize that the tribulation is happening and the Lord still tarries. Will it shatter their faith, or will they finally learn to trust?

I am sometimes guilty of using the Scripture too much,

Well, Here I go again:cool:

I think that this chapter rather backs up your case up to this point.

Of which I agree with also.

I will place 2 thess. Chap 2 here and make a few comments

with a few added

verses to try to back me up if I can.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming

of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This is when He comes for us to take us "out of the way".

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be

troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from

us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and

shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were

not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,

when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all

that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God

sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a

beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,

and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of

blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a

leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth

as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and

his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded

to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world

wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power

unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is

like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking

great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to

continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against

God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that

dwell in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with

you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what

The Priesthood

withholdeth that he

The Man of Sin.

might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already

work:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye

have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many

antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

only he who now letteth will let, until he

That lets (holds back)

be taken out of

the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and

shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working

of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of

unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not

the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them

strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That it was the evil who were removed?

and that he is christ?

Why do you think John wrote about

"The Lords Christ"?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were

great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are

become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall

reign for ever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed

not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to

God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from

the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of

the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to

the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold

the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our

epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and

God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us

everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in

every good word and work.

Looks to me like 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 supports a Pre-Great Trib Rapture of the Saints.

OK now somebody help me out with this one, Huh?

Edited January 14, 2011 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought on conclusion

[Elphaba]

That's the word I was looking for, Reverend, thank you. The pretribulation belief is escapism.

I take great comfort in knowing I will be spared the wrath of God that will befall humanity after the tribulation.

That sounds like escapism to me.

Elphaba

[Jacobi]

That sounds like escapism to me.

Elphaba

Yeah, James, I have to concur with Elphaba on this one. Both viewpoints seem a bit escapist to me.

[FunkyTown]

Where is my trust??? It's in Christ! You seem to imply that believing in the Rapture is escapism. However, if the Great Tribulation is viewed as a time of God's judgment, then why would his prepared church have to be a part of it. If we have become that bride without spot or wrinkle, washed in the blood of the Lamb, then, of course, we would be spared God's wrath upon the earth. Additionally, we do believe that many who have observed the faithfulness of God's people, will repent, following the Rapture, and that they will indeed stand for Christ. Those who convert during the Tribulation will likely face decapitation for standing true to Christ, rather than giving in to Antichrist worship. So, it's not as if the world will not have a witness. BUT...the faithful will not be judged, for they are innocent, due to Christ's blood.

This is not triumphalism or escapism. It is our understanding of Scripture--of Christ's promises. I'm a bit disappointed at the subtle accusation that I lack trust because I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

Don't be too disappointed in people who imply a lack of trust in God with the whole 'Believing in the rapture' thing.

It's not like they're the ones judging your heart.

Ultimately, I'm one who doesn't believe in the rapture. There can be arguments made both ways. I hope you're right, PC, and even pray you are. This is one thing I would love to be wrong on. I would cheer, as a matter of fact.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Yeah, James, I have to concur with Elphaba on this one. Both viewpoints seem a bit escapist to me.

Or perhaps I'm misunderstood here. I'm proposing that we are not going to escape the tribulation, but we will ge going through these trying times. It's the pretrib belief that thinks the church will be whisked away before anything bad ever happens. But to believe we will participate also in the time of God's wrath is simply unscriptural:

Matthew 13:

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;

25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.

27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’

28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’

29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

At the separation of the wheat and tares, the righteous will be separated from the wicked and the wicked burned with unquenchable fire. It's not escapism to not be a part of this because we're referring to the final judgement here, not the tribulation.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I am sometimes guilty of using the Scripture too much,

Well, Here I go again:cool:

I think that this chapter rather backs up your case up to this point.

Of which I agree with also.

I will place 2 thess. Chap 2 here and make a few comments

with a few added

verses to try to back me up if I can.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming

of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This is when He comes for us to take us "out of the way".

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be

troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from

us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for

that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and

shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were

not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,

when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all

that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God

sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a

beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,

and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of

blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a

leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth

as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and

his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded

to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world

wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power

unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is

like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking

great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to

continue forty and two months.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against

God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that

dwell in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with

you, I told you these things?

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what

The Priesthood

withholdeth that he

The Man of Sin.

might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already

work:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye

have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many

antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

only he who now letteth will let, until he

That lets (holds back)

be taken out of

the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and

shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working

of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of

unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not

the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them

strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That it was the evil who were removed?

and that he is christ?

Why do you think John wrote about

"The Lords Christ"?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were

great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are

become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall

reign for ever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed

not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to

God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from

the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of

the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to

the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold

the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our

epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and

God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us

everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in

every good word and work.

Looks to me like 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 supports a Pre-Great Trib Rapture of the Saints.

OK now somebody help me out with this one, Huh?

Wha wha what??

You need more than some help. Even an angel descending from heaven cannot turn error into truth. Here you look at a direct refutation of the pretrib position when Paul says that our gathering to Christ cannot precede the rise of the Son of Perdition, the antichrist that is commonly associated with the tribulation. Even mid tribbers cite this scripture and point out that the Church must be on earth to witness the ascendency of the antichrist and certain things he will accomplish.

No, this is a naked example of taking the plain meaning of scripture and twisting it to mean something else; in this case the exact opposite.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Don't be too disappointed in people who imply a lack of trust in God with the whole 'Believing in the rapture' thing.

It's not like they're the ones judging your heart.

Ultimately, I'm one who doesn't believe in the rapture. There can be arguments made both ways. I hope you're right, PC, and even pray you are. This is one thing I would love to be wrong on. I would cheer, as a matter of fact.

If he's right, then 1800 years of Christians are wrong, because the whole pretrib nonsense didn't pop up until the Great Awakening in the 19th century. Just to put things into context.

But this issue of judging someone's heart...obviously I know and understand the piety of not judging what is inside of someone, but I think it's being used as a shield to ward off my larger point that the pretrib position is one that arises from a lack of trust. Those who hold this view may have an intimate trust in Christ, but they hold a belief that implicitly confounds that trust. We humans often harbor such juxtapositions in our minds.

[JohnnyRudick]

Wha wha what??

You need more than some help. Even an angel descending from heaven cannot turn error into truth. Here you look at a direct refutation of the pretrib position when Paul says that our gathering to Christ cannot precede the rise of the Son of Perdition, the antichrist that is commonly associated with the tribulation. Even mid tribbers cite this scripture and point out that the Church must be on earth to witness the ascendency of the antichrist and certain things he will accomplish.

No, this is a naked example of taking the plain meaning of scripture and twisting it to mean something else; in this case the exact opposite.

Just lookin' for reactions:)

My point was a reaction to the claim that this chapter is

a plain refutation of a pre- great Trib Rapture and I was only

pointing out that [not to well either I must admit.

I could have done better many years ago]

there is a reading that does not make it so clear.

Thanks for yours:cool:

Any other ideas out there:o

Edited January 15, 2011 by JohnnyRudick
Another fleeting thought ;-)

[bcguy]

The only issue that I have of this is some times, there are fear mongering teachings in our ward. one member said that a increase in earthquakes are a sign of the end times and I just shook my head. Earthquakes have been a part of natural forces ever since the earth was conceived. All humans are floating on a sea of magma beneath are feet some 30 miles beneath us. Magma pushes on the crust as a result of currents. when those plates stick, pressure builds up and a release of energy called a earthquake is created. I just had to shake my head in disbelief. Yes, there are perhaps more people getting killed over time..but there is alot ALOT more people on the planet in the last 100 years in these earthquake prone regions and its natural forces, not the end times as a indicator.

[bert10]

God shakes the Earth. Natural forces are controlled by the Spiritual. Just like the sin of Gluttony will destroy us with diabetes, high blood pressure, heart diseases, strokes and cancers so is the earth affected by Sin when nations step over the bounds and sink into gross wickedness. I use the sin of gluttony because being overweight cannot be hidden and explained away neither can the diseases that come because of it. And the people who are afflicted by this sin do go to the grave with much earlier with afflictions and pains and sorrows.

Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Do not be deceived when righteousness is on the earth. Nature is regulated by the angels in charge of the spiritual forces that controls nature.

Psalms 82:5 - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course

Hebrews 12:26 - Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Much more is coming. The ancient religion of Enoch that Israel rejected would have been very useful today in learning how things actually work. But men shall trust the explanations of Science more than seek the wisdom of GOD.

bert10

[Traveler]

Where is my trust??? It's in Christ! You seem to imply that believing in the Rapture is escapism. However, if the Great Tribulation is viewed as a time of God's judgment, then why would his prepared church have to be a part of it. If we have become that bride without spot or wrinkle, washed in the blood of the Lamb, then, of course, we would be spared God's wrath upon the earth. Additionally, we do believe that many who have observed the faithfulness of God's people, will repent, following the Rapture, and that they will indeed stand for Christ. Those who convert during the Tribulation will likely face decapitation for standing true to Christ, rather than giving in to Antichrist worship. So, it's not as if the world will not have a witness. BUT...the faithful will not be judged, for they are innocent, due to Christ's blood.

This is not triumphalism or escapism. It is our understanding of Scripture--of Christ's promises. I'm a bit disappointed at the subtle accusation that I lack trust because I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

It is my personal opinion that we may not be seeing the donut because of the hole. In essence the purpose of the atonement and sacrifice of Christ is that innocence and even goodness and righteousness can and will suffer because of the evil and sin of others. But more importantly that through the discipline of such suffering and sacrifice that good can be realized and brought forth in others.

For some salvation is merely the shedding of their sins and receiving glory at the hand of the mercy of G-d for that which they do not deserve because of their sins. For others salvation is more - that having undeservingly received the kind mercy of G-d in the pardoning of their sins as with the first; they then give their innocent selves to suffer because of the evil and sin of others and thus it is that they are willing to suffer with Christ. And to suffer with Christ is a true trial of all that claim to believe in him must be willing to endure.

I have no doubt my friend PC that you will gladly accept whatever the L-rd ask of you. Be it to meet him without trial or to demonstrate his light through the most challenging trial. But I must be fully honest here concerning myself. If there is just one left behind (for example my son or daughter) to suffer because of the evil of others - it is my desire to be with them - in the midst of the worst of it than to have to observe only from a far and unable to offer any assistance.

And as you desire not to be seen as less of a saint for your belief and wish to fulfill your destiny - So do I.

The Traveler

[bcguy]

The end times should have been WWI when hundreds of millions of people died which in historical terms, is the highest casualty rate in human history in a short time span World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

But if you look at the the human population curve, seems that humans are a resilient bunch, and just keep on mass producing over its entire life span especially in the last 200 years Human Populations

If a cataclysmic event would occur, it would most likely be a massive meteor strike, the down curve of peak oil "petroleum", a shift in the intensity of the magnetosphere that would then allow dangerous forms of UV light to pass to the earth surface or all out nuclear war. Global warming is so ever making life on earth more miserable. But not sure if that will play a huge role in the decreasing world population. Even then, There will be survivors.