Issues with Brigham Young

[Suzie]

Suzie, I realize you're taking a break, so no rush to respond to these. Hope you're doing well.

Thank you! :)

If we had written records of one John Q. Reubenite living in Israel in 800 BC who desperately wanted the priesthood as it existed at that time and in all other respects lived an exemplary life - would that change your perception of Moses' Levites-only priesthood policy?

I really don't know. However, let me clarify that the topic is of great interest to me. Just because I believe there is a possibility of an "error" (as President Kimball ALSO pointed out) doesn't mean I have bad feelings towards Pres.Young, I just do not agree with a lot of things he said with regards to blacks.

Anecdotes like the ones you provide are inspiring and powerful; but I'm not sure they're really germane to the bottom-line question of whether the priesthood ban came from the Lord or not.

The intention of sharing the story wasn't about answering whether or not the priesthood ban came from the Lord or not but merely share a powerful story of a faithful saint that was denied the blessings we all enjoy today.

I agree that it matters whether the ban came by revelation/inspiration/whatever other processes go into the day-to-day decisions of the church leadership.

I'm just not convinced that it matters which leader received that particular (alleged) revelation. I worry that this "it was Brigham, not Joseph" (and the other side's "no, it was really Joseph") betray a "Joseph Smith was a 'more reliable' prophet than Brigham Young" mentality that I think is unhealthy.

I think it matters purely on historical study. I agree that it shouldn't turn into a war between Smith and Young however, for those of us who like to study this topic it's very important to determine when it started and who was in the Presidency at the time. My research points clearly to Brigham Young, others may disagree.

On the other hand--do we subject, say, the decision to build more small temples, or the establishment of the Perpetual Education Fund, to the same kind of scrutiny that we apply to the priesthood ban issue?

Why, or why not?

You tell me... Do you? I think this is one of those things that each individual person decides. For some, maybe an issue and for others it isn't.

Oh, and by the way - what leads you to imply that those who disagree with you on this, are the ones who have not sought/obtained a confirmation on this matter?

I didn't know I implied such a thing but hey, investigators pray about the Church sometimes and they said they received a confirmation that the Church is NOT true while others prayed and received a confirmation that the Church IS true. Hence, I believe in a balance between study and faith. I can only seek confirmation for myself and continue looking for the answer.

[Suzie]

Margaret Young posted two blog entries at BCC about the Priesthood Restriction and different opinions:

All God?s Critters: Some Thoughts on the Priesthood Restriction and Differing Opinions By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Second part:

All God’s Critters: Some Thoughts on the Priesthood Restriction and Differing Opinions, Part II By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

Also Jonathan Stapley shared his thoughts about Teaching The Priesthood Restriction:

Teaching the Priesthood Restriction By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

I thought maybe some of you who have studied this topic or are simply interested in learning more may enjoy Margaret's remarks. We covered many within this thread some months ago.

[Justice]

Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Origin of the priesthood ban - FAIRMormon

This is a good read.

[Suzie]

If you don't have the DVD, PLEASE check tomorrow, Tuesday, July 26th ( 8:00pm - 10:00pm) they will premiere "Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons" (Documentary Channel). EXCELLENT work of Margaret Young and Darius Gray. I HIGHLY recommend it!

[Guest Sachi001]

I just want to say that I am an LDS Member so this isn't an anti-Mormon comment trying to drive people away from the religion.

The only problem I have is that something is out of place with the teachings of Brigham Young. Shortly after he took leadership he revoked all the priesthood blessings of the Black members in the church and he also revoked the temple rights for all the members. He also had taught against mixed marriages. What bothers me is that I have been a member of the LDS Church for 13 years and I still believe that Brigham Young failed as a prophet and there were also rumors that he was involved in a massacre.

I understand that a lot of what him and other prophets said could be considered questionable, but the fact is that he approved of the writings of the Journal of Disclosures and helped along with the sale of them once they were written.

What I think is that Brigham Young is at fault for many of the Anti-Mormons that are out there because he put the church through a period of corruptness which hadn't been brought back into balance until years later when polygamy was ended and then until we had not used race as a reason to deny someone the same blessings.

I'm with MarginofError. I think your being a little rough on the old man. You need to understand, and put your Presidents both past, and if and when future, into a better perspective. They are men though qualified by HF to lead the church. They were appointed, and the Lord knows they are not perfect in nature. Therefore mistakes can be made.

Moses put it into the right perspective:

Deut 18:22

22When a aprophet bspeaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now I can be critical myself on PH ban on blacks, and teachings to men on the moon, etc... as pointing what a failure BY was. However I don't look upon such. I look upon BY as "was he qualified to lead at the time". Leaders lead right or wrong. This is apparent in why the Lord is no respector of persons. Especially when BY, via the 12 apaostles, was called to lead, and not JS Smith's son. When Moses passed the staff to Joshua. Moses didn't give it to any of his sons. Joshua also made many questionable decisions just like Moses. Heck even Moses failed by breaking the tablets. Your gonna say he failed as a prophet? Many times the Jews called him a failure even after leading them out of Egypt, and was the anointed prophet. You yourself are falling in this category with your judgment.

Fact is BY had the realization of being faithful and listening to the spirit to lead the Saints out of the Mississippi area and head west. Overcoming many obstacles and picking a very good spot to build the future of Zion. I seriously doubt any other man would have had the drive and ambition to do such should they have been selected. The Saints and their church could have been wiped out if they had stayed. In fact you just alluded to many things you deemed as failures, but failed (how ironic) to mention all the good things he has revelated and done.

It's easier to be critical as an arm chair quarterback then to be there on the spot and make decisions. Perhaps one day when you learn to forgive as the Savior instructed in Mark 11:25, 26 then you can have that discussion with BY himself.

Therefore if you want to judge him as a failure based on some decisions he reached as a prophet that you deem questionable. It may have been the right thing to do at the time. It's a matter of perspective. However if we are adamant to judge failure. then I guess you need to start examining your life first, and how many times you failed before sitting on judgment of BY. Heck in fact you can just about put the failure label on everyone of us on that were born. Else we would not need the Plan of Salvation. I suggest walking in his shoes first.

You better quit judging lest be judged yourself. I didn't say this. Christ mandates such.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Sachi001

[Guest tbaird22]

I think you should worry about yourself not BY.

[Guest Sachi001]

I just realized I posted to a thread that is 8 months old. Speaking of failure I have got to start checking dates better.

[JohnnyRudick]

I just realized I posted to a thread that is 8 months old. Speaking of failure I have got to start checking dates better.

I think a few of us still have been checking it out.

Some of us must still be interested at least a little;)

[MormonMama]

I still believe that Brigham Young failed as a prophet....

If he had failed as a prophet, do you really think the Lord would have allowed him to be the prophet until the day he died?

[JohnnyRudick]

If he had failed as a prophet, do you really think the Lord would have allowed him to be the prophet until the day he died?

Brigham Young completed the Job the Lord had for him to do.

I Thank the Lord for Brigham Young, Prophet of God.

[Blackmarch]

Posting a response to a question in another thread that touches upon this thread's subject.

Do we know for a fact the policy was inspired and by revelation as you state?

OR, as I also stated, done just by use of the proper authority... however if only the proper authority was just used without any direction from God whatsoever we are left with a quandary- Why did it take so long for someone else with the same authority to reverse the decision (priesthood ban)?

Do we have a "God said that he said to BY to do such and such" revelation to the church? no, God doesnt do that sort of thing very often, beyond personal revelations. The closest we have to that is the Manifesto.

- It took many prayers and years before a prophet got the revelation to change it.

I'm not left with much wiggle room as to what conclusion to take in this case.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Guest mormonmusic]

Someone once said "the sooner you get on your own clock, the happier you'll be in the Church".

This for me, means it's irrelevant whether Brigham Young said some controversial things. If a prophet, either modern or historical, says something that I find hard to accept, then I'm going to have to run it through my own inspiration, prayer, and personal revelation to decide exactly what it means to me -- whether to accept it wholesale, whether to partition it as a man's opinion, (not necessarily inspired), or to modify it to have meaning in my unique life circumstances.

We've even seen prophets of modern times soften the statements of past prophets, applying this principle.

The one that stands out the most is Gordon B Hinckley on Larry King. Larry King asked "Do you believe as man is, God once was?". GBH replied something to the effect of "I don't know that we teach it, I don't know that we emphasize it". Those statements are somewhat ambiguous, but they certainly represent some kind of present-day distancing or softening from the first half of the couplet uttered by a prophet decades earlier.

Spencer W. Kimball was quoted as calling the priesthood ban a "possible mistake", which implies that the person who accepts everything we hear over the pulpit, without applying for personal revelation themselves, may well be on shaky ground. We also see statements by GA's disappear gently from new Sunday School lesson manuals, like the statement a parent would rather see their child buried than be subject to sexual violation (or some other form of sexual impurity, I don't remember which).

I had the first inkling of this when I was new member in my early 20's. My staunch girlfriend at the time made the comment "Brigham Young said a lot of things that have gotten us in trouble". At that point, I realized just how much room there is for individual prayer and inspiration on talks given in the Church, even by prophets. We don't always know when a prophet is speaking as a prophet, or as a man, are they rarely state explicitly which hat they are wearing. So, it behooves the individual to do the sorting in communion with God.

I have long thought that the presence of prophets doesn't mean we have to give up our brains and individual lifelines to God.

As one GA was quoted to have said "there just aren't enough GA's to do the thinking for the general membership of the Church". We might modify this to mean "thinking and inspiration-seeking for the general membership of the Church" -- lest we leave God out of it, which is a mistake.

Edited September 28, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Suzie]

Hi Blackmarch, thanks for replying. :) We discussed that point on this same thread and we theorized a few points. From not receiving the correct answer (even Spencer W. Kimball is quoted on this thread as an Apostle mentioning a "possible mistake" with regards to the ban) to the Lord allowing the ban to continue (which is different from the Lord being the one behind the placement of the ban in the first place).

[Blackmarch]

Hi Blackmarch, thanks for replying. :) We discussed that point on this same thread and we theorized a few points. From not receiving the correct answer (even Spencer W. Kimball is quoted on this thread as an Apostle mentioning a "possible mistake" with regards to the ban) to the Lord allowing the ban to continue (which is different from the Lord being the one behind the placement of the ban in the first place).

which is part of the second part of my post; it would be a case of the Lord respecting the use of the authority that one is given- which introduces different questions, but is still doubtful that it was a total blunder.