Purpose of free agency?

[Chango]

This may seem like a silly question to many, and perhaps it is, but it is one of many "weird" thoughts I have had from time to time. If God being all knowing and all powerful and all "happy" as He is, desires us to become like him, why are we then given the free agency to choose anything but this? In other words, could it be that some truly would not be happy if they were to use their agency and choose to be like God our father?

Could becoming like God for some be compared to say choosing a sport? Could God be just like an earthly father, who we'll say is happy playing baseball and loves baseball. Therefore he wants all of his sons to play baseball, but knowing they may not all feel the same way about it as he does gives them the option of say playing Tennis, or playing basketball. Hopefully my thinking here is making enough sense, thanks in advance for any responses. -

[Gramajane]

Wow, what a limited concept of God seems to be in your analogy!

To me, God is so inclusive of all that is good, wonderful, knowledgeable etc, that we can't even get a scope of it, we barely get to glimpse like one bud of a leaf of a whole humongous tree!

--- The VERY fact of free agency, or moral agency- is that we GET a choice (many choices!)

Satans plan was that he would force everyone to lock step, and not make ANY mistakes and thereby nobody would make any "wrong decisions". To some, that might seem comforting (because to me they don't see the whole picture- and THIS would be limiting like you have in your baseball dad)

--- But with Jesus Plan, we get a voice and a choice, and we get help from the Spirit of Christ when we are born, plus we have the gift of the Holy Ghost after we are baptized, and still we have SO MANY choices, that we can still mess up.

-- To me a better analogy would be like to say --

Free agency helps us gain - the glory of God which is intelligence and choice

- while without choice or chances of learning- what choices have we? to remain ignorant that we don't have choices? (there are many who seem stuck like that-- and to me it is like communism etc)

[pam]

Could becoming like God for some be compared to say choosing a sport? Could God be just like an earthly father, who we'll say is happy playing baseball and loves baseball. Therefore he wants all of his sons to play baseball, but knowing they may not all feel the same way about it as he does gives them the option of say playing Tennis, or playing basketball. Hopefully my thinking here is making enough sense, thanks in advance for any responses. -

Actually I kind of like this analogy. Perhaps because I love sports and can see how this could apply.

We know what Heavenly Father desires of us. To learn, to progress and to return to Him. The joy in the plan of salvation is that we do have agency to make our own choices.

Let's take your analogy a bit further. If loving baseball and playing baseball can be likened to the steps we need to follow to return to Him then of course our Heavenly Father would want us to follow and play that game. We hit the ball and if we follow the course of the bases we make it back to home plate.

But there are many of us, including myself, who have chosen to play the game of tennis or basketball instead at times throughout our lives. In playing those games, I've had extreme disappointments and extreme downs during my life. Participating in those kinds of activities have taken me away from the comforting arms of my Father in Heaven. Not because Heavenly Father has withdrawn those arms but because I have not allowed Him to put his arms around me.

In learning through those disappointments and downs, it is hoped that we will once again return to the game of baseball so that we can follow the path that will lead us back to Him.

That's the whole idea of agency. To allow us to learn from our mistakes, to become stronger, to gain a testimony on our own. How much more the joy that we learn these things on our own than to be forced to do them. What do we learn by having agency withheld from us? Nothing. The rules of baseball are simple and straightforward. It's up to us if we want to be a team player or allow ourselves to follow another sport.

Keep in mind that our Heavenly Father has unconditional love for us no matter what sport we choose. He is saddened and grieves for us when we choose another path that takes us farther away from him. Yet that is the choice we made in the pre-existence when we chose the Savior's plan.

Heavenly Father allows us to choose another sport, knowing what the outcome may be, but He loves us so much that he has given us our agency to choose. Much the same with earthly parents. We can teach our children all the correct principles to follow. It is ultimately up to them to make their decisions. Even as earthly parents we can't force them. As much as we would like to sometimes.

Edited January 15, 2011 by pam

[Traveler]

Sometimes it can be hard to understand the challenges of this life and think that we really have much of any choice. In essence we cannot determine the most important possibilities that seem to affect us. For example we cannot choose to stay young or grow old. We cannot choose to live or die - some may think differently but our only actual option is to eventually die.

Even the choices we seem to have are in reality limited. For example we cannot marry anyone we choose without our partners choosing the marriage as well; therefore we can only select to marry those also interested in and wanting to marry us. And currently it seems that many “change their mind” concerning the choice and opt out of their chosen marriage for a divorce. For most, the reality is not really a choose whatever you want but rather a very small cross section of those we know or associate with that are even actual prospects. We all cannot all have the jobs we may want or earn the salaries we most desire. No one chooses their children in advance - in essence we are stuck with whatever we can get - if we get any at all. As one friend said to me, “Having children is a crap shoot; you have no idea what you are going to get or what you are in for”.

What then is agency? What is it that G-d has given us? The truth is that we in reality only have one of two opposing options. We are involved in a game if you will that has only two possibilities. En essence the deck is stacked and it is not a matter of “winning” or “loosing”. The only two options boil down to two things:

The First is to realize whatever is really you and yours and then to desire to sacrifice that and discipline self for the greater benefit of all.

The second is to realize whatever is really you and yours and then to desire to indulge in whatever is available to satisfy self.

Our agency is a choice between disciplinary sacrifice and self indulgence. Making a certain choice will draw us closer to that G-d that himself was disciplined in sacrifice for our sins. The other choice will take us down a path where we will become his eternal enemy by our nature - what is called the natural man.

The Traveler

Edited January 15, 2011 by Traveler

[slamjet]

There is one aspect of free agency that get's missed that's of the utmost importance: To give it up. In the Addiction Recovery Manual put out by the Church, it has a quote in it from Neal A Maxwell (past Apostle of the Church):

"The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. It is a hard doctrine, but it is true. The many other things we give to God, however nice,that may be of us, are actually things He has already given us, and He has loaned them to us. But when we begin to submit ourselves by letting our wills be swallowed up in God's will, then we are really giving something to Him." (pg 13)

Free agency is an eternal principle. It was exercised by us in the pre-mortal life, now, and in the hereafter. It is a principle that's so eternal that when the alternate plan was put forth, it was rejected because (and this is the gospel according to Slamjet) it would not work. It would not satisfy, nor be able to replace the need for grace to counteract the fall of Adam. In other words, it is not enough to pull us out of this earthly existence to celestial glory.

It is the one thing that was bestowed upon us just by the virtue of our creation. It could not be given since it can not be taken away from us. It is truly the one thing that God did not give us. Thus, it is by giving our free agency to God that we show that we put our full faith and trust in him and truly become a disciple of God. It is by giving the one thing God didn't purposely give us that we show just how devoted we are to Him.

As for a Sports analogy, I don't have a good one, other than he provided us a stadium. We chose to enter the stadium, played the game as honestly and fairly as we could. We heard all the taunts and jeers of the audience but concentrated on listening to God, our coach through the din. So when we learned to block out all the noises, we could hear the calls he called out and we played exactly as we were instructed. So when we walked off the field, we walked straight to his dugout without any embarrassment on how we played.

[pam]

As for a Sports analogy, I don't have a good one, other than he provided us a stadium. We chose to enter the stadium, played the game as honestly and fairly as we could. We heard all the taunts and jeers of the audience but concentrated on listening to God, our coach through the din. So when we learned to block out all the noises, we could hear the calls he called out and we played exactly as we were instructed. So when we walked off the field, we walked straight to his dugout without any embarrassment on how we played.

I really like this. It goes along so well with my response.

[MrShorty]

If God being all knowing and all powerful and all "happy" as He is, desires us to become like him, why are we then given the free agency to choose anything but this?

One interesting thing I noticed the last time I read the creation/fall in Genesis was the mention of "becoming like God." How did Adam and Eve become like God? By partaking of fruit, they were put in a position to know good from evil. It seems that an essential part of becoming like God is to know good and evil (and choose the good, of course).

[pam]

One interesting thing I noticed the last time I read the creation/fall in Genesis was the mention of "becoming like God." How did Adam and Eve become like God? By partaking of fruit, they were put in a position to know good from evil. It seems that an essential part of becoming like God is to know good and evil (and choose the good, of course).

If we were forced to always choose good..would we have ever really learned what was evil? The plan of salvation as we know it would not exist. There would have been no need for it. No need for the atonement. Something about that just doesn't sound comforting to me.