Is the final judgment permanent?

[rameumptom]

Joseph Smith taught that it is doctrine only when a prophet speaks as a prophet. Brigham Young once spoke in General Conference much of the morning. In returning that afternoon, he got up and said, "this morning you heard Brigham Young's thoughts on the topic. This afternoon, we'll learn the Lord's will on the topic."

Just like us, the prophets do not know everything, and they must struggle as we do to obtain the will of the Lord. Then, it does not mean the Lord has given all the info available on a certain topic, but gives it out line upon line.

At the Church website, it establishes that there is a difference between core doctrine and the occasional teachings or beliefs of a General Authority. Our core doctrine are the things clearly taught in the scriptures, official proclamations and declarations. All of the books that GAs bring out are not doctrine. They can help us understand doctrine, based upon that GAs current understanding of the gospel.

Our current GAs have moved away from the times of publicly sharing their personal assumption, which were very prevalent from the times of Brigham Young until the 1980s. Now, the GAs stick to the pure doctrine. Most of the speculation is now done by members, which is just fine. As we discuss "what ifs" there is no danger of any particular belief to be viewed as doctrine, simply because it is spoken by an authoritative figure.

Through all of this, Volgadon is correct. None of this affects the core doctrines of the gospel. A person can be exalted by following the GAs, even if some things are not 100% perfect. The priesthood authority, ordinances, atonement of Christ, and other key doctrines do not change.

[pam]

Through all of this, Volgadon is correct. None of this affects the core doctrines of the gospel. A person can be exalted by following the GAs, even if some things are not 100% perfect. The priesthood authority, ordinances, atonement of Christ, and other key doctrines do not change.

Volgadon hasn't responded in this thread. Did he say that on another thread or did someone else say it?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Easy. Some progressed farther in the pre-mortal world of spirits and did not need this life as much.

I certainly understand what you're saying. What I fall back on is that I know I have changed, and I know I have seen others change. The word repentance means to turn or to change. The purpose for this mortal existence is to see if we will keep God's commandments when outside His presence. The spirit and body are joined together, and we are introduced to evil, and thus opposition. Evil can be enticing, and all subject themselves to a taste of it (all but One). We must learn to overcome the desires that are inherent in having a physical body, and choose to keep God's commandments. Maybe this requires little chance for some, but for others it requires a complete and total change of the heart.

It's like courage... it's not the lack of fear, but the ability to rise above fear when confronted with it. In fact, you can't have courage without fear of some kind. Similarly, these desires of the flesh are there, and they will be as long as we have a physical body, mortal or immortal. The desires will possibly different when immortal, but physical desires are part of having a physical body. The ability to rise above those desires and choose the good is what we're striving for, IMO.

I agree that we are striving to show our interest in spiritual matters over the desires of the flesh while in this world. And that this is very important for us that have been given that challenge so that we can show where our loyalty lies. And from that we will "say" through our actions which Kingdom we want to be in.

But to learn to overcome physical desires is not needed to be a Celestial being, period. That idea is false, in my opinion. Otherwise, many souls, who have died before the age of 8 will somehow have to come back to this world while Satan is around to learn that lesson. If they don't have to, then it is not necessary to become a Celestial being. One's level of spirituality, however, is a measure of how well one overcomes temptations of the flesh in this life. That level of spirituality is formed before this life. Here, we reveal it by living this life.

If a person passes the first estate, then by definition they are ready for the second estate. Would you say that some that came to their second estate test were not ready for the test? Then they falsely passed the first estate? Who did that? I don't believe any person who passed the first estate did it by accident or by not understanding their choice. I don't believe in a God that would put people in that serious of a decision without having all the knowledge and training and growth at their disposal to make such a decision. I think people that believe in the possibility of transitioning from one Kingdom to another after this life must at some level believe that people that are taking the 'second estate' test were somehow not ready for the test. That, to me, is a lack of understanding (testimony) of what happened before this life. Everyone here, born into this world, expressed belief in God and Christ and his plan for happiness, everyone! They all believed 100%, no doubt or wavering or sense of rebellion. In fact, we all jumped for joy at the thought. That is what is necessary to qualify for the second estate test. What more preparation or practice or whatever could have been expressed at that moment?

You say that you have changed in what way? From disobedience to obedience? What I am saying is it depends on from what mark you are starting. Before this life you were obedient and now you say you have changed to obedience. Changing from obedience to obedience is not change. If you are just looking at this life and recognize that we start out in a fallen condition and when accountable make poor decisions in this state that we call sin and therefore need to change from that fallen state, then there is a change from that fallen state. But there is not a change from the original state, except advancement. By going through repentance there is a type of spiritual growth that was not available in the premortal world. This type of growth would be better categorized as a 'make up' exam or 'extra credit' for some but not as a core requirement.

This life is more like after an athlete makes the team (passing the first estate), the few more rounds of practice (second estate) to determine what position the person is going to play. We have all made the team, but not everyone is going to play quarterback or be team captain. There are some, expressed by their actions here, don't want to play quarterback. And that aspect of their character is not going to change a bazillion years down the road. Could they grow and learn in their own positions over time, yes, but not to the point of suddenly not liking their position and wanting to be something they are not. Even though we all wanted to be on the "team" (all the Kingdoms, kept the first estate) not everyone wants to be quarterback (be in the Celestial Kingdom, kept the second estate).

[Maygraceabound]

Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?

God (Jesus ) said in Mat. 25:46

46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

God says that hell is everlasting and so is heaven. I hope this helps.

[jayanna]

Whoa, 16 pages. There is a chapter on this in Gospel Principles. Yes, the final judgement is...final. I don't know how much more clear it gets actually. We Will each inherit a (not multiple) kingdom. Either you are prepared for a kingdom or you are not.

Here is the link, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, it is not particularly complicated doctrine.

Gospel Principles Chapter 46: The Final Judgment

Your inheritance doesn't change, you are only prepared for one kingdom, or else why would there need to be three kingdoms if everyone was going to end up in one anyways?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Whoa, 16 pages. There is a chapter on this in Gospel Principles. Yes, the final judgement is...final. I don't know how much more clear it gets actually. We Will each inherit a (not multiple) kingdom. Either you are prepared for a kingdom or you are not.

Here is the link, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, it is not particularly complicated doctrine.

Gospel Principles Chapter 46: The Final Judgment

Your inheritance doesn't change, you are only prepared for one kingdom, or else why would there need to be three kingdoms if everyone was going to end up in one anyways?

Amen. (.... we've tried to mention it, and explain it.)

[bay2boy]

Can I get a clarification? What do you mean by physical separation?

As far as physical separation..there is a separation between spirit paradise and spirit prison. God and Jesus Christ will not visit those in spirit prison. So there is that separation.

Maybe there isnt a separation but there are places like temples in the spirit world where the Lord can go and visit his spirit children in paradise. Long shot?