Guest mormonmusic Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I am unable to quote anything at this time, but I have heard various ideas from various people that even to hell there is an exit. Punishments happen, but once you've learned your lesson, so to speak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 As far as I know, the answer to that question has not been revealed to us. Of course, that doesn't stop us from speculating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 It just seems a little strange to me that this life is the ONLY time we have for spiritual advancement. What of those who will be given opportunities after this life? Is it possible that could extend into the kingdoms? And yes, this is just speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 There's a first judgement after we die, where we are sent either to spirit paradise or spirit prison. There is still opportunity to repentance and change there, prior to the final judgment. The final judgment is, by its very definition, final.Besides, "this life is the time for men to prepare to met God." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan6329 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 All I know is that if you are sent to spirit prison that pretty much means you had gone through a pretty long period of darkness in your life that you refused to get out of and spent years denying God and his teachings that you at one time knew were right. In spirit prison you haven't had your final judgment yet but you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom through Spirit Prison. The most you have to look forward to is a Terrestrial Life, which is of honorable people brighter than the Telestial Kingdom and hell, but still not with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr T Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd think final also even though we have different beliefs about heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 All I know is that if you are sent to spirit prison that pretty much means you had gone through a pretty long period of darkness in your life that you refused to get out of and spent years denying God and his teachings that you at one time knew were right. In spirit prison you haven't had your final judgment yet but you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom through Spirit Prison. The most you have to look forward to is a Terrestrial Life, which is of honorable people brighter than the Telestial Kingdom and hell, but still not with God.Or, you lived a good and honorable life but never had the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.Why must you be so negative about everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamjet Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 One way to look at it is it's where you will be comfortable. At the judgment bar of God, all knowledge of out earth live, pre-earth life, everything will be restored and we will essentially self-judge ourselves to our final destination. If we have died in sin, rebellion, or halfheartedly keeping Gods commandments, we will know and we would be uncomfortable being in the highest kingdom. So if the terrestrial kingdom is where were comfortable, that's where we will be. And I say comfortable in place of we know better and know what it is we deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarysnoozer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?I would think it is permanent because the body that one receives pertaining to that specific Kingdom is never to be separated from your spirit again. For the Celestial Kingdom there is one body comparable to the glory of the Sun and the Terrestial also one body comparable to the moon in its glory and for the Telestial there are various bodies as one star varies in brightness from another. ... paraphrased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 A friend of mine said to me the other day "I don't believe in a God who only rewards the fast learners". Believes that there will be progression eternally. May not be exhaltation but progression. That was their belief. Ben Raines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) I've always taken D&C 132:17 to be indicative of there being a point (or points) where you have essentially passed up your opportunity.For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."to all eternity, and from henceforth... forever and ever" sounds pretty darn final to me. Edited January 21, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan6329 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Or, you lived a good and honorable life but never had the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.Why must you be so negative about everything?What is not negative of not being able to inherit the celestial kingdom?Maybe the terrestrial life is good enough for you, so I guess that is where you're gonna go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mormonmusic Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) I've always taken D&C 132:17 to be indicative of there being a point (or points) where you have essentially passed up your opportunity."to all eternity, and from henceforth... forever and ever" sounds pretty darn final to me.That's what I've always believed. Plus, it motivates us to do all we can before final judgment. However, how do you reconcile that scripture, with this one, which implies the concept of endless punishment is there more to motivate us, rather than to be actually permanent:"4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my cleft hand.6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not." Edited January 21, 2011 by mormonmusic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) That's what I've always believed. Plus, it motivates us to do all we can before final judgment. However, how do you reconcile that scripture, with this one, which implies the concept of endless punishment is there more to motivate us, rather than to be actually permanent:Because that scripture is talking about Hell (in the context of Spirit Prison)*. At any rate if one believes that even the Telestial kingdom is a reward (it's a better state than we currently exist in). Those who can't abide the law can't abide the Glory associate with it. So for someone who can't abide a Celestial Glory is putting them there a reward any more than me tucking a fish into my bed is a reward for my fish?* Yes I know, people talk about anything other than exaltation as Hell but cosmologically that isn't the case.P.S. I'm not saying I have some definitive answer here. I think it really does boil down to your thought process involved. Is one punished into something other than exaltation? Or is one rewarded to exaltation? Edited January 21, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 What is not negative of not being able to inherit the celestial kingdom?Maybe the terrestrial life is good enough for you, so I guess that is where you're gonna go.Think what wing is saying is that Spirit prison is for those who didn't have the gospel, those awaiting ordinances. While your post concentrated on the sinners.The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.So spirit prison would include both Ted Bundy, and Mother Teresa. MLK, and Joseph Stalin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan6329 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 What I was informed of is that those who are in spirit prison cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. So why should people like Mother Teresa be punished just because she did good elsewhere instead of in our religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Is the final judgment permanent? Meaning, if someone is consigned to the terrestrial kingdom (for example) is that person stuck in that kingdom for eternity? Or can they jump to the celestial kingdom after meeting certain conditions?there is no scripture that says otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I am unable to quote anything at this time, but I have heard various ideas from various people that even to hell there is an exit. Punishments happen, but once you've learned your lesson, so to speak...NOt quite there are 2 hells:the first is spirit prison, the second is outer darkness.Depending on what you have done in this life in spirit prison you can be left to the torments and buffetings of satan... but this one is temporary (the one that gets destroyed according to revelations).At the final judgement when all are brought before God those who have accepted christ to whatever degree will be freed from such... however those who still choose whoredoms over christ will be cast into outer darkness. I have seen nothing that indicates in any way that there will be any way to leave this situation after the final judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 What I was informed of is that those who are in spirit prison cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. So why should people like Mother Teresa be punished just because she did good elsewhere instead of in our religion?I don't know about that. We do temple work I.E. Sealing, for people who would not "qualify" for Paradise. Yet as far as i know this is only valid for Celestial glory. So we would be wasting a lot of time, if being in spirit prison was an instant disqualification for celestial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan6329 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I don't know about that. We do temple work I.E. Sealing, for people who would not "qualify" for Paradise. Yet as far as i know this is only valid for Celestial glory. So we would be wasting a lot of time, if being in spirit prison was an instant disqualification for celestial.It could have been misinterpreted by my teacher when I was in Young Men than.I just thought that maybe consider spirit paradise isn't a free ticket to the Celestial Kingdom that you didn't have to be baptized into the church just to go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 It could have been misinterpreted by my teacher when I was in Young Men than.I just thought that maybe consider spirit paradise isn't a free ticket to the Celestial Kingdom that you didn't have to be baptized into the church just to go there.AFAIK you do have to be baptized, with proper authority to go there, that is why we have the temples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan6329 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Afaik??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Afaik???As Far As I Know=AFAIK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 One way to look at it is it's where you will be comfortable. At the judgment bar of God, all knowledge of out earth live, pre-earth life, everything will be restored and we will essentially self-judge ourselves to our final destination. If we have died in sin, rebellion, or halfheartedly keeping Gods commandments, we will know and we would be uncomfortable being in the highest kingdom. So if the terrestrial kingdom is where were comfortable, that's where we will be. And I say comfortable in place of we know better and know what it is we deserve.I like this idea. I once heard the notion that anything but the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is hell and I thought "that must suck". I like to think that whoever has earned whatever degree is satisfied and dare I say very there there. A friend of mine said to me the other day "I don't believe in a God who only rewards the fast learners". Believes that there will be progression eternally. May not be exhaltation but progression.That was their belief.It's an interesting idea. I have difficulty wrapping my head around the concept of a total end to learning. It's foreign to me. So perhaps whatever glory you receive may be it, but that doesn't mean there can't be progression within that glory. What I was informed of is that those who are in spirit prison cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. So why should people like Mother Teresa be punished just because she did good elsewhere instead of in our religion?I highly doubt this. This, to me, goes against the entire concept of God and goodness. By this logic, someone who was born before/after the gospel during the Dark Ages would be lost to Celestial glory just by chance of birth. It would also go against our belief that works do help us out.The only things that would prevent Mother Teresa, IMHO, from the Celestial Kingdom, are refusing the gospel and failing to get her ordinances done.My grandma liked to say that the last Pope would have been a Mormon save for the fact it wouldn't look too good to have the Pope convert to Mormonism. She was sure that after his death he went right up and accepted the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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