Unrest in Egypt

[Saldrin]

American Thinker: The Story of the Egyptian Revolution

[Saldrin]

Mubarak supporters are now attacking the protesters i guess they are protesters it seems to me they are a mix of people with agendas stirring the pot mixed in with people who want to just demonstrate.

Chaos in Cairo as Mubarak backers, opponents clash - Yahoo! News

[prophetofdoom]

I don't think the problem is "democracy." The real question is this, is the United States willing to accept another people democratically electing something not in line with US interests? The US continues to support many dictators worldwide because they align themselves with US interests BUT abuse their people. Perfect examples can be all of the meddling down in South America to help support military dictatorships even though the people wanted to elect people with more socialist tendencies.

Do we really support a peoples' right to choose their own government or is it just lip service?

[NeuroTypical]

The real question is this, is the United States willing to accept another people democratically electing something not in line with US interests?

We did in Iraq. The first guy elected, was not the US first pick, or even our second. We certainly didn't get the staunch pro-American ally out of Iraq that we were hoping for.

I mean yeah, I see your point, and I'm not specifically disagreeing with it. I don't know if Iraq was the exception or the model. Maybe neither.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[FunkyTown]

You're only partly correct. When millions of Iraqis dodge bullets to show up at the polls and vote and then proudly dip their fingers in ink, exposing themselves to further risk, it speaks of a hunger for democracy that words can never justify. While it can't be said that everyone wants democracy, there is a growing trend of moving toward more liberal forms of government. South Korea's communist regime will fall within the next 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next 5. Reagan, Thatcher, and Pope John Paul II have taught us to look for the invisible cracks that are the harbinger of a toppled regime.

What's missing in your analysis is the seeds of change just under the surface. While you may have become so jaded with democracy that you even exhibit a barely concealed contempt for it, or at least an imperative that it spreads no further, others are crying out for it and are willing to take to the streets and fight, even die, for it. They see what others have and they do not; the prosperity vouchsafed by the free market and the ability to live under a government of the people's choosing, and they are willing to do what it takes to attain it.

Thanks for the input, SMDT, but let's take a left off of the self-righteousness turnpike and pull on to reality boulevard.

There is a difference between a Democracy, which as I pointed out is enjoyed even in Iran, and a Liberal Democracy, which is the westernized equivalent.

Now that's out of the way, let's look at this a little further:

The Soviet Union broke up. This is true. Why did it break up?

They went broke. People lost their livelihoods and families were jeopardized. This is the same thing, by the way, that created the Soviet Union.

Secondly, while I applaud your enthusiasm, I would suggest we look at the facts.

The following revolutions of the 20th/21st century resulted in a more liberal-Democracy

The Rose Revolution

The Orange Revolution in the Ukraine

The Overthrow of the Soviet Union

The Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia

The Romanian Revolution where the Genius of the Carpathians was killed.

The Singing Revolution

The following revolutions of the 20th/21st century resulted in less Democracy:

The Boxer Rebellion in China - Kung Fu didn't beat American, British and Russian guns. Very sad. I won't get in to it. You can read on the Boxer rebellion if you want to.

The October revolution - Formed the Soviet Union

The overthrow of the monarchy in Iran - Pro-western Shah gets overthrown and a gradually liberalized society is immediately halted and thrown in to a theocracy. It is a theocracy that is voted by the people and certainly is a Democracy.

The Palestinian Revolt - Created a slum under martial law for an entire group of people.

People's Republic of Congo

Cambodia

The Shi'ite Uprising in Iraq

The Naxalite Insurgency in India

Almost every uprising in Africa, ever.

And of the two of us, who is the one making assumptions, FT?

That would be you. Did I get the answer right? Was that what you were looking for?

Are all Arab nations the same and is their no outcry against the daily injustices inflicted by theocratic governments?

There certainly are. In Iran, there were several protests last year. All focused in the city. Most of Iran's populace lives in the rural areas and the rural areas overwhelmingly vote for the theocratic government. I'm unsure if you're aware of this, but here is the definition of a Democracy:

majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

The majority vote for theocracy. If the revolution in the city, which is a minority of the populace succeeded, that would be the antithesis of Democracy. It would be an Oligarchy, in fact, instituted by the few.

Did you know there is a popular ski resort in Iran? Yes, there is snow in the desert! My point? Assume nothing when it comes to Iran. They are not happy pigs wallowing in the mud of religious oppression.

That's... Not really a great point, SMDT. Having a ski resort in Iran isn't really a point for either of us. I could point out they also have a bunch of falafel shops. I'm uncertain where I'd be going with that one, but it makes about as much sense as bringing up a ski resort.

Perhaps it bears saying that some of the most devoted haters of Western society are those ensconced in its blessings.

That's true. I'm uncertain what your point is, however. Is this another one of those 'Ski Resort' arguments? If so, then, I will come back with an equally irrelevant observation.

Lessee... Perhaps it bears saying that bears themselves poop in the woods. Or in meadows, but mostly woods. The pope doesn't. But bears aren't Catholic, so it evens out.

Ultimately, we will see what we see in the next few months. The military has said it wouldn't fire on its people, which is often the end of any Tyranny - The military leaving the dictator leaves a very lonely dictator. Who he's replaced by will be decided soon. Then we'll see whether it's good for the world or not.

[Guest]

Just a side-note... Iranians are not Arabs... or at least, most of them aren't. So, it's safe to say, Iran is not an Arab nation...

[NeuroTypical]

Yep - Iranians are Persians. They spend a lot of effort trying to convince the Arab world that Iran is reliably Muslim and shouldn't be thought of as an enemy. They're going so far as trying to become a hub of fundamentalist Islamism.

Stratfor's take on things:

There are four outcomes possible. First, the regime might survive. Mubarak might stabilize the situation, or more likely, another senior military official would replace him after a decent interval. Another possibility under the scenario of the regime’s survival is that there may be a coup of the colonels, as we discussed yesterday. A second possibility is that the demonstrators might force elections in which ElBaradei or someone like him could be elected and Egypt might overthrow the statist model built by Nasser and proceed on the path of democracy. The third possibility is that the demonstrators force elections, which the Muslim Brotherhood could win and move forward with an Islamist-oriented agenda. The fourth possibility is that Egypt will sink into political chaos. The most likely path to this would be elections that result in political gridlock in which a viable candidate cannot be elected. If I were forced to choose, I would bet on the regime stabilizing itself and Mubarak leaving because of the relative weakness and division of the demonstrators. But that’s a guess and not a forecast.

-The Egypt Crisis in a Global Context: A Special Report | STRATFOR

[pam]

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak will not seek re-election, a senior Obama administration official tells CNN.

A story that is breaking news right now on CNN.

Mubarak tells ABC his resignation would cause chaos - CNN.com

[GeneC]

Obama Egypt Plan Includes Role for Muslim Brotherhood

Obama Egypt Plan Includes Role for Muslim Brotherhood

Thursday, 03 Feb 2011 08:48 PM

The Obama administration is secretly crafting a plan for Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to leave office immediately – a plan that includes a place for the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood to be in an interim government, The New York Times reported Thursday night.

. . . . . . .

[prophetofdoom]

I have been looking more into this "Muslim Brotherhood" and I believe we are not getting the accurate narrative on them. It appears as though they have had links to British Intelligence and that they could be using this "crisis" to intentionally destabilize the Middle East. This idea of the "radical muslims" taking over the Middle East fits perfectly with the clash of civilizations that is being fomented. I do believe that there is a lot underneath the surface that we are not being told by the media...

[Saldrin]

I have been looking more into this "Muslim Brotherhood" and I believe we are not getting the accurate narrative on them. It appears as though they have had links to British Intelligence and that they could be using this "crisis" to intentionally destabilize the Middle East. This idea of the "radical muslims" taking over the Middle East fits perfectly with the clash of civilizations that is being fomented. I do believe that there is a lot underneath the surface that we are not being told by the media...

I agree, Egypt Jordan Syria Tunisia all have the same the same riots over the same thing at the same time, and all apparently tied to the Muslim brotherhood. I am sure there are some democracy proponents when the protests started but they may have been co-opted and devolved into a pure riot now.

[prophetofdoom]

I agree, Egypt Jordan Syria Tunisia all have the same the same riots over the same thing at the same time, and all apparently tied to the Muslim brotherhood. I am sure there are some democracy proponents when the protests started but they may have been co-opted and devolved into a pure riot now.

It just seems a little to coincidental that all these countries explode all at once. That being said, I know that there is anger from the rising food prices worldwide. I think there is something to the "secret combinations" talked about in the Book of Mormon. There is a reason that we were told about these secret combinations that brought about the downfall of the Nephites. I believe we now have modern forms of secret combinations acting to bring about a destruction of freedom worldwide and loot the world at the same time.

[GeneC]

Two good videos to watch which will enlighten much about what is happening in the Middle East.

Brigitte Gabriel, President of Act! For America, appeared on FOX's "Hannity" to discuss the situation in Egypt. She appeared with Mike Ghouse of the America Together FDN.

From a woman who KNOWS!

(4.5 mins)

(5.7 mins)

[GeneC]

Muslim Brotherhood Front Group Trains Airport Screeners

by Connie Hair (more by this author)

Muslim Brotherhood Front Group Trains Airport Screeners - HUMAN EVENTS

The Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) has completed training for 2,200 Transportation Security Officers (TSOs) at the Los Angeles International Airport according to a press release found on the MPAC webs . . . . . . . . .

and

Act! for America - Jordan's powerful Muslim opposition warns that Arabs will topple US-allied Mideast leaders

Jordan's powerful Muslim opposition warns that Arabs will topple US-allied Mideast leaders

[Excerpt: "The leader of Jordan's powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States."]

Edited February 5, 2011 by ThankGodForRepentence

[volgadon]

I agree, Egypt Jordan Syria Tunisia all have the same the same riots over the same thing at the same time, and all apparently tied to the Muslim brotherhood. I am sure there are some democracy proponents when the protests started but they may have been co-opted and devolved into a pure riot now.

Lets see, a riot begins in one area. The disaffected in another react to it by copying it, and in all these countries the goverment is disliked and there are members of the Muslim Brotherhood in every country in the Middle East. You are reading too much into this. Rioting is the traditional and typical stress reliever for the masses in the Middle East. The Muslim Brotherhood is taking advantage of this.

[Saldrin]

Lets see, a riot begins in one area. The disaffected in another react to it by copying it, and in all these countries the goverment is disliked and there are members of the Muslim Brotherhood in every country in the Middle East. You are reading too much into this. Rioting is the traditional and typical stress reliever for the masses in the Middle East. The Muslim Brotherhood is taking advantage of this.

No I am not.

[volgadon]

It seems that you are. First of all, these did not take place simultaneously. Riots began in Tunisia. Once they cooled down, people in Egypt started rioting. A few days into this, there were riots in Jordan. The Muslim Brotherhood has shown itself to be better organised in the past.

[Saldrin]

No, It seems that I am not. Your not reporting an accurate time line as these event are happening simultaneously. You can say the other spots have cooled down but all the news coverage says otherwise. Jordon happened after Egypt started and Egypt is still going on. day 12. there are reports that there are stirrups in Lybia and Yemen and i have heard of no cooling in Tunisia. Sorry I am not going to buy it.

[pam]

Egyptians erupt in joy as Mubarak steps down - CNN.com

Mubarak steps down.

[Saldrin]

It's a hysteric moment

[pam]

Hysteric or historic? I suppose it could be both. haha

[GeneC]

I'm only hoping that all this is in preparation for Egypt's conversion to the Gospel of which Isaiah spoke of. Like the song says we could all use a 'little good news'.

[NeuroTypical]

Whenever you can have a bloodless coup disguised as a voluntary release of power, I guess that's better than a bloody violent coup where lots of people die.

We'll see if the military shares power with the civilian leadership. We'll see if they still allow the elections to go through like they promised. We'll see if they are elections, or "elections". We'll see if the military remains basically independent, or if it becomes a tool of the muslim brotherhood. We'll see if this isn't the precursor for "Ding Dong the Shaw is gone" redux.

LM

[volgadon]

All I can say is yikes.

[GeneC]

Ex-Israeli Official: Mideast Dominoes Point to War

Friday, 11 Feb 2011 06:56 PM

By David A. Patten

George Birnbaum, an international political consultant who once served as chief of staff to former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is warning that a domino-style collapse of moderate Arab regimes could lead Israel to war.

Birnbaum, an expert in global politics, cited Friday’s collapse of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt and the growing turmoil in nearby Jordan as ominous signs for Israel.................

-----------

Obama Faces Diplomatic Nightmare After Mubarak Debacle

Even as chants of “Egypt is free! Egypt is free!” rocked downtown Cairo on Friday, President Barack Obama moved to limit the diplomatic damage stemming from the administration’s response to Egypt’s unexpected lurch toward democracy.

After weeks of criticism that his policies were either too bold or too timid in support of pro-democracy throngs teeming into Cairo’s Tahrir Square, Obama firmly sided with the Egyptian protesters on Friday. ............

[secretary of State] Hillary Clinton’s first comment was that the Egyptian government is stable. And everyone living in Egypt could see loud and clear that it was by no means stable at all.”

Said attributed the administration’s vacillation to “a myth” that the Muslim Brotherhood would take over Egypt if Mubarak fell.