Was Job free of sin?

[LDSChristian]

When we think of someone being free of sin obviously we think of Jesus Christ. However, I thought of this yesterday. All of Job's life he was protected from Satan by God. Even when God allowed Satan to try to tempt Job, Job still didn't give in. Since Job was always protected by God from Satan does that mean Job was also free of sin?

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

When we think of someone being free of sin obviously we think of Jesus Christ. However, I thought of this yesterday. All of Job's life he was protected from Satan by God. Even when God allowed Satan to try to tempt Job, Job still didn't give in. Since Job was always protected by God from Satan does that mean Job was also free of sin?

Job refused to reject God when he was tried by Satan and suffered many terrible things. His faith in God was of herculean proportions. He was still a sinner for all have fallen short. I can guarantee that he had sinned before this great trial and still committed the occasional transgression afterwards.

Only Christ was perfect, no one else. if Job was perfect then he wouldn't need salvation.

Remember that the Book of Job only covers a small portion of Job's life!

[hordak]

Came in here expecting a discussion on careers .

[bert10]

It would well if you understood what happened with Job from a little higher point of view.

Job was not perfect in love..because He had fears. In the NT we are given that love and fear cannot co-exist together.

God tricked Satan into giving Job everything he had feared his whole life. First of when Satan came in with the Sons of God...the LORD pointed out Job to Satan by extolling him. And Satan took this as a challenge and rose and took the bait. And God said to Satan...that he could do all things to Job except take his life.

And when these things happened to Job....He exclaimed...The thing that I greatly feared is upon me.

Job fears became a reality...not only did he face them now that they were upon him, he overcame his fears by faith and thrust in GOD. After his trials...Job was made perfect in Love and as a True Son of GOD entered into the Lord's rest. For GOD restored Job to a greater height than he had before the trials. Even his daughters were said to be the fairest of the land.

Was Job free to sin? No. He would have first to break the bands of righteousness that he had girded himself with throughout his life. Could Job sin if he wanted to? yes. After he had broken the bands of righteousness.

IT is also the same reason why a wicked man cannot do Good until he has broken the bands of wickedness by repentance. Can a wicked man do good? Eventually, Yes if he chooses to first to repent.

The righteousness of our actions and thoughts and words that come out of us at this very moment is based on Repentance and after walking in the Spirit. God said when sin is conceived in our hearts...it must bear fruit. So whatever we plant in our garden with intent and desire will bear fruit over time. And the fruit of wickedness is always bitter though it may look beautiful.

As an Example Adultery is never an accident. It has to have been conceived in the heart first. An Adulterous heart is necessary before the act can occur.

bert10

When we think of someone being free of sin obviously we think of Jesus Christ. However, I thought of this yesterday. All of Job's life he was protected from Satan by God. Even when God allowed Satan to try to tempt Job, Job still didn't give in. Since Job was always protected by God from Satan does that mean Job was also free of sin?

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the NT we are given that love and fear cannot co-exist together.

God tricked Satan into giving Job everything he had feared his whole life.

bert10

"God tricked Satan"? really?

...love and fear can co-exist, these polar opposites create a gradation of varied reasons to be motivated to do right, it isn't black or white. In the end, one will hate one master and love the other, but in this life people can have two masters for a period of time. Eventually, one will win out over the other. Afterall, we are dual beings, our body may say one thing while the spirit says another.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Job refused to reject God when he was tried by Satan and suffered many terrible things. His faith in God was of herculean proportions. He was still a sinner for all have fallen short. I can guarantee that he had sinned before this great trial and still committed the occasional transgression afterwards.

Only Christ was perfect, no one else. if Job was perfect then he wouldn't need salvation.

Remember that the Book of Job only covers a small portion of Job's life!

Even if he sinned before, couldn't he be perfect through repentance? Or, do you think the redeeming power of Christ doesn't make us totally "perfect" (not perfected) and our sins are really remembered, we are left with permanent scars forever despite repentance?

The refiners fire of this life is a perfecting process not a scaring process.

How about those under the age of 8, are they sinners? How about those that have diseases like trisomy 21, are they sinners? Just because one falls short, they have fallen short because they have taken on mortal life, doesn't mean they are sinners, then. What would you call those individuals then, they aren't sinners and they aren't yet perfected.

[bert10]

Read the account yourself and reflect on it...It is God who initiate the conversation with Satan and points Job out...and Satan then reacts..from the point of view of darkness. That Job only acts righteous because he is afraid of GOD.

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 - Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Read the entire account several time remembering...this teaching

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

To have torments is to be in hell. Many on this earth are already in hell by their fears they have raised hell on this earth. It is time that people learn to bring down heaven on it instead of raising hell on it.

The light dawns on Job eventually...as he realizes....

Job 3:25 - For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 3:26 - I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

David in Psalms speak a great truth by the Spirit....Job was not at this level of faith yet. For he had fears.

Psalms 23:4 - Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

By allowing Satan to give to Job everything He feared...God allowed Job to be able to live a life of love without fears. Again it is written a man cannot be made perfect if he has fears. Which is also called darkness. Fears is the opposite of faith. Faith is action...and fears is a paralyzing force and it also pervert and confuse the right way of GOD.

Yes, it is Light or darkness. If a man or woman goes into the grave with a spot on their garment...they shall rise with that same spot. There is no substitution for victory..

One of the reasons why we are here on the earth is to subjugate the lust of the flesh to the Spirit of GOD. The natural will be destroyed and it shall not enter into the kingdom of GOD for the natural man is an Enemy of GOD and His righteousness.

bert10

"God tricked Satan"? really?

...love and fear can co-exist, these polar opposites create a gradation of varied reasons to be motivated to do right, it isn't black or white. In the end, one will hate one master and love the other, but in this life people can have two masters for a period of time. Eventually, one will win out over the other. Afterall, we are dual beings, our body may say one thing while the spirit says another.

[john doe]

It's thought by many bible scholars that Job was not a real person, but rather the story is more likely to be allegorical.

[Wingnut]

It's thought by many bible scholars that Job was not a real person, but rather the story is more likely to be allegorical.

Like half the rest of the Old Testament?

[HiJolly]

Like half the rest of the Old Testament?

Just so.

HiJolly

[prisonchaplain]

I take the story of Job to be literal and historical. Likewise, Job was a very righteous individual. God was proud of him. I am a bit sensitive to accusations against Job, basedp upon his "the thing I've feared has come upon me," quip. A heresy arose in the 1980s using that very interpretation. They claimed that Job's great sin was not having faith. Not believing. Not claiming his children for God, declaring it so, by faith. I found this so twisted and perverted at the time. Sure enough, this teaching has largely been rejected, though some still cling to "prosperity gospel" teachings.

On the other hand, Job surely did have sins in his life. He was human, and a product of the Fall, like us all. This aspect of his life was not germaine to the story. Only Christ was sinless.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Even if he sinned before, couldn't he be perfect through repentance? Or, do you think the redeeming power of Christ doesn't make us totally "perfect" (not perfected) and our sins are really remembered, we are left with permanent scars forever despite repentance?

The refiners fire of this life is a perfecting process not a scaring process.

How about those under the age of 8, are they sinners? How about those that have diseases like trisomy 21, are they sinners? Just because one falls short, they have fallen short because they have taken on mortal life, doesn't mean they are sinners, then. What would you call those individuals then, they aren't sinners and they aren't yet perfected.

Cab you please clarify what you are saying you confuse me..

[Seminarysnoozer]

Read the account yourself and reflect on it...It is God who initiate the conversation with Satan and points Job out...and Satan then reacts..from the point of view of darkness. That Job only acts righteous because he is afraid of GOD.

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 - Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Read the entire account several time remembering...this teaching

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

To have torments is to be in hell. Many on this earth are already in hell by their fears they have raised hell on this earth. It is time that people learn to bring down heaven on it instead of raising hell on it.

The light dawns on Job eventually...as he realizes....

Job 3:25 - For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 3:26 - I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

David in Psalms speak a great truth by the Spirit....Job was not at this level of faith yet. For he had fears.

Psalms 23:4 - Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

By allowing Satan to give to Job everything He feared...God allowed Job to be able to live a life of love without fears. Again it is written a man cannot be made perfect if he has fears. Which is also called darkness. Fears is the opposite of faith. Faith is action...and fears is a paralyzing force and it also pervert and confuse the right way of GOD.

Yes, it is Light or darkness. If a man or woman goes into the grave with a spot on their garment...they shall rise with that same spot. There is no substitution for victory..

One of the reasons why we are here on the earth is to subjugate the lust of the flesh to the Spirit of GOD. The natural will be destroyed and it shall not enter into the kingdom of GOD for the natural man is an Enemy of GOD and His righteousness.

bert10

Where does is say, though, that fear is a sin? I think you are equating the final outcome of "being made perfect in love" with being perfect which cannot be the case. Because as you said in your last line, the natural man is an enemy to God. If one believes Jesus was man and yet we say that He was perfect then it is possible to be perfect even though man can never become like God without being made perfect, or what we call exalted or perfected. You are right that we cannot continue in fear when we are made perfect in love through the process of resurrection and exaltation. That is what is meant by, coming into His rest. When we pass from this world then we can come unto His rest and not have to fear anymore because we will be free of this body that naturally has fears. Either Jesus experienced similar challenges that we do in this life as a man or He did not. I don't think you can have it both ways. So if there was even one ounce of "man" in His physical body here on Earth, than He had fears, that were overcome by His spirit but they were fears none the less when they were generated by His natural body.

If humans did not fear, our ancestors would not have lived, they would have all walked into the lions den a long time ago. Our bodies fear, just like they have hunger, thirst, sexual drives, aggressiveness, self-centered drives, etc. Did Jesus ever hunger or thirst? And yet we call Him perfect. To have fear in this life does not preclude one from being perfect. At death, fear will be removed if we are righteous, perfectly righteous. ... as you said by Psalms 23:4. If we have to be "perfect", like what you are suggesting a "perfect love" before we are perfected in Christ, then nobody will ever be perfected in Christ. What kind of impossible plan would that be?

Edited February 2, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Seminarysnoozer]

Cab you please clarify what you are saying you confuse me..

Repentance comes before Baptism. Before you were Baptized, then, if you were fully repentant what sin did you carry with you into the waters of Baptism? Then after Baptism you were washed clean and at that moment you were made perfectly clean. .... unless you think that somehow the process of repentance and Baptism and following all the commandments and covenants doesn't really make one clean and perfect.

There is a difference though between perfect and being 'made perfect' which is 'exalted' or perfected. If one is perfected in this life than they are translated beings or resurrected beings. If you want to call someone who is repentant still a sinner, then I am confused about what you think the process of repentance actually does. Does it not make one clean? perfectly clean? then, in a not commonly used sense of the word we could call that person 'perfect' similar to what I would say about someone under the age of 8 or someone who has conditions like trisomy 21. They are not sinners which goes against what you were suggesting, 'since all fall short we are all sinners'. I believe repentance takes away the title of "sinner" where you are suggesting it doesn't.

[LDSChristian]

Came in here expecting a discussion on careers .

lol wow.

[rameumptom]

Job was chastised by God at the end of the story for his pride. He was guilty of sin, just not of denying and rejecting God. And because Job was basically good, he was blessed. But he was not perfect.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Job was chastised by God at the end of the story for his pride. He was guilty of sin, just not of denying and rejecting God. And because Job was basically good, he was blessed. But he was not perfect.

Then why does President Monson describe him that way?

Thomas S. Monson, "They Marked the Path to Follow", Ensign, Oct. 2007, 4–9, “Job was a “perfect and upright” man who “feared God, and eschewed evil.” Pious in his conduct, prosperous in his fortune, Job was to face a test which could have destroyed anyone. Shorn of his possessions, scorned by his friends, afflicted by his suffering, shattered by the loss of his family, he was urged to “curse God, and die.” He resisted this temptation and declared from the depths of his noble soul, “Behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.” “I know that my redeemer liveth.”

Job became a model of unlimited patience. To this day we refer to those who are long-suffering as having the patience of Job. He provides an example for us to follow.” And in that same article our Prophet, then the first counselor said; “A just man and perfect in his generations,” one who “walked with God,” was the prophet Noah.”

And …

Moses 8: 27 ”And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.”

D& C 107:43 “Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age.”

Our Prophet calls these men “perfect”. Yes, it’s not the same as Jesus’ perfect but here are examples of them being described as perfect, by Joseph Smith and President Monson and Moses. I think that the word 'perfect' has varied meanings as most words in the scriptures. But because of that we shouldn't assume that it means without a history of sin.

[bert10]

Bible Scholars are the modern day Scribes. They are are much in error as the scribes were in the days of Jesus.

Job was a real person. Perhaps the Era is in error, but nevertheless if one listen in his heart...he will know that it is a real account.

bert10

It's thought by many bible scholars that Job was not a real person, but rather the story is more likely to be allegorical.

[Dr T]

Interesting question. Why do you think "God protected Job from Satan"? God asked Satan if he considered His servant Job? He was called righteous but I don't think that meant without sin.

[Dr T]

Sorry PC and Ram. I read your posts after I posted mine above. I agree with you PC. I almost gave you a thanks Ram but because I don't believe he was basically good I didn't. I still appreciated what you had to say in your last post. I believe Job was basically evil but did "good".

[volgadon]

Bible Scholars are the modern day Scribes. They are are much in error as the scribes were in the days of Jesus.

bert10

So many good ones to choose from. "Takes one to know one." "Thus it is written in the Book of Bert." "A modern Mormon Ozymandias." "Unintentional irony." "This is rich, considering the source."

Oh, the dillema, oh, the choices.

[volgadon]

And on the topic of scribes, don't you know about old and new?

[bert10]

Fear paralyzes and faith is power to move. How many times does God warn men to not fear?

Is it not written that without faith that it is impossible to please GOD?

Have you read the scriptures that fear cannot exist with Love and has torments attached to them?

That without Love one cannot be made perfect and we cannot have boldness in the day of Judgment.

1 John 4:17 - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Perfect love casteth out fear...and if we have fears it is impossible we have perfect love. And fear hath torment.

And where does one find torment?

To have torments: is to be in hell. One does not have to die to be in hell. We make our own hell or heaven by our choices.

Matthew 8:29 - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Jesus lived a life of perfection as an example to them that loved Him. To them Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

<> He wasn't kidding when he gave that commandment and He also gave men the faith and hope that they can fulfill it. The blind and the wicked teach that we cannot fulfill this commandment.

<> "Entering into the Rest of the Lord" I believe this was the "Promise Hitherto Unknown" that President Benson in the eighties tried to teach the LDS. In his last year he did not teach on this anymore. For the Lord had commanded him to cease. The LDS were not listening.

Entering into the Lord's rest is given here in Hebrew. : one has to hear the voice of GOD in our hearts.

Hebrews 3:7 -Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Hebrews 3:8 - Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hebrews 3:9 - When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Hebrews 3:10 - Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known

my ways.

Hebrews 3:11 - So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

How fear kept Isreal from becoming the Light of the World.

When the Lord brought Israel to Mount Sinai...He ordered the people to cleanse themselves for three days in preparation to meet their GOD.

GOD was already in the top of the mountain. There was a ring of fire and it rumble and there was the sound of the trumps. As they got nearer to the mountain... their fears and lack of trust in GOD just kept growing. As they got nearer...the rumblings and shakings of the mountain with the fire got more ominous. And they could not get anymore near it...their fears got the better of them...and they all ran away from their GOD.

You see all the miracles that were performed for them were acts of nature and did not give them the faith necessary to endure and trust that God would save them. They murmured after each miracle and threatened to take the life of Moses.

Then they said to Moses to go and get the words of GOD and the promised to obey them. Of course they could not obey the laws perfectly no one can. They would not learn that there is no substitution than hearing GOD in ones heart. That it is always better to walk by counsels then by commandments. Because if we fail a counsel the penalty is not as great as actually breaking a commandment.

And the commandments came written on a Stone Tablet which made the commandments as hard, and rigid and unyielding as a stone. And in the following months ISrael received about 600 commandments, statutes etc.

As you can see how fear can stop spiritual growth even of a whole nation...it is a sin For GOD said fear not many times.

As for you lion example...by faith Daniel walked amongst them unharmed even when they were starving.

bert10

Where does is say, though, that fear is a sin? I think you are equating the final outcome of "being made perfect in love" with being perfect which cannot be the case. Because as you said in your last line, the natural man is an enemy to God. If one believes Jesus was man and yet we say that He was perfect then it is possible to be perfect even though man can never become like God without being made perfect, or what we call exalted or perfected. You are right that we cannot continue in fear when we are made perfect in love through the process of resurrection and exaltation. That is what is meant by, coming into His rest. When we pass from this world then we can come unto His rest and not have to fear anymore because we will be free of this body that naturally has fears. Either Jesus experienced similar challenges that we do in this life as a man or He did not. I don't think you can have it both ways. So if there was even one ounce of "man" in His physical body here on Earth, than He had fears, that were overcome by His spirit but they were fears none the less when they were generated by His natural body.

If humans did not fear, our ancestors would not have lived, they would have all walked into the lions den a long time ago. Our bodies fear, just like they have hunger, thirst, sexual drives, aggressiveness, self-centered drives, etc. Did Jesus ever hunger or thirst? And yet we call Him perfect. To have fear in this life does not preclude one from being perfect. At death, fear will be removed if we are righteous, perfectly righteous. ... as you said by Psalms 23:4. If we have to be "perfect", like what you are suggesting a "perfect love" before we are perfected in Christ, then nobody will ever be perfected in Christ. What kind of impossible plan would that be?

Edited February 3, 2011 by bert10

[bert10]

I deal with Christians and their Scriptures all the time...and their biblical translations from so called Scholars are horrendous.

And the book of Bert says: And this is from a country where yesterday snowstorm as affected on 1 on 3 citizens.

The Lord's warning for repentance are increasing in the USA and why is that? Does it have to get as bad as Australia?

bert10

So many good ones to choose from. "Takes one to know one." "Thus it is written in the Book of Bert." "A modern Mormon Ozymandias." "Unintentional irony." "This is rich, considering the source."

Oh, the dillema, oh, the choices.

[Dr T]

There are some bad scholars, I'd agree, but there are plenty of great Biblical scholars.