Would the church accept me?

[Dravin]

In Jesus time wern't Chapels and Temples the same thing??

They would have been synagogues, but no a synagogue would not have been (and still isn't) the same thing as the/a Temple.

[todd520]

Hello everyone.

A few months ago I was lured out of a fast food restaurant by a pair of LDS who took me to their temple and attempted to convert me. At first I was very skeptical but before long I was impressed with the extent to which LDS doctrine agreed with my own independent conclusions I had drawn since I left my birth religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) and began studying the Bible independently. After this initial meeting, I went to a kind of 'catechism' class where I learned more with some other potential converts. The elder who was teaching us said he couldn't believe that, given my beliefs, I had never been involved with or studied the LDS church. He wanted to convert me on the spot, but I told him I had to wait. He suggested I pray over the matter.

Are you certain you met with LDS? You would not be 'lured' from a restaurant and taken to the temple. For the rest of the reply, I will assume you just used the wrong terms.

1. Gay marriage should be banned.

2. Kids and teens should not masturbate.

3. Drinking tea is sinful.

I cannot participate in making others feel guilty for doing these things for the simple reason that I do not believe them to be sinful.

I urge you to consider the following and then speak to the local Bishop about your questions. In no way should you become baptized until you are ready.

• Since Gay marriage has not been allowed historically, are you asking for it to be made legal? Are you concerned about civil union legalities or full recognition as a married couple?
• Have you studied the concept of Natural Man? SSM and masturbation fall under this teaching.
• There is nothing explicitely sinful about drinking tea or coffee. The sin for a mormon is if they made a promise to follow the Words of Wisdom and then broke that promise.

Again, please meet with the local Bishop and please attend the weekly bible study after sunday service, to ask your questions of other members. Edited February 7, 2011 by todd520

[pam]

Again, please meet with the local Bishop and please attend the weekly bible study after sunday service, to ask your questions of other members.

Needing some clarification. What weekly bible study after sunday service?

[todd520]

Needing some clarification. What weekly bible study after sunday service?

The second hour, after the sacraments meeting. I found it presented a great opportunity to meet and question other regular members, beyond the missionaries.

[Dravin]

The second hour, after the sacraments meeting. I found it presented a great opportunity to meet and question other regular members, beyond the missionaries.

I imagine Pam's confusion stems from her (like quite a few others I imagine, myself included) considering all three hours (Sacrament, Sunday School, and Priesthood/Auxiliary) to be all part of the Sunday Service.

[Traveler]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

Just to clear up a few things:

I am not in support of forcing any religion or sect to bless gay marriage. My endorsement of it is simply in secular terms. I believe the government should extend whatever legal benefits it gives to commited heterosexual couples to homosexual couples as well.

...

Just wondering why or the logic to how this will improve society. Do you support Gays demonstrating on our private worship grounds? Should some one that is attracted to children be granted all the same rights to be happy? My point is - if society does not benefit why say it is equal? Do you really believe gay marriage is as important and necessary to society as families that provide children?

There is now a movement to remove biological parents as responsible for their children. Gays are paying proxies to provide them children so they can have families. This assumes that biological parents really do not have right and responsibilities. Do you support this movement as well?

The Traveler

The Traveler

The Traveler

[JohnnyRudick]

Backroads why are you so fixated on that one part??? There was so much said and your still stuck on that

Maybe might think seeing a little of something else in the

sugar that looks like sugar but is not?

[JohnnyRudick]

I imagine Pam's confusion stems from her (like quite a few others I imagine, myself included) considering all three hours (Sacrament, Sunday School, and Priesthood/Auxiliary) to be all part of the Sunday Service.

I know my head gets to spinning by the third hour:eek:

[todd520]

I imagine Pam's confusion stems from her (like quite a few others I imagine, myself included) considering all three hours (Sacrament, Sunday School, and Priesthood/Auxiliary) to be all part of the Sunday Service.

Yea my language was not clear.

In my experience I've found investigators frequently leave after the first hour, thus missing bible study

[Origen]

Just wondering why or the logic to how this will improve society.

I believe that gay marriage would serve the same roles that heterosexual marriage does:

1. Encourage gay couples to commit to stable, monogamous relationships which, it is hoped, would slow down the spread of HIV.

2. Provide a social framework in which children could be raised. Of course, homosexuals cannot concieve (without outside help), but they can adopt and while some might not consider having 2 daddys or mommy's the ideal I am absolutely certain that it is far better than growing up in an orphanage or foster home. Speak to someone who has grown up an orphan and they will probably tell you that the foster home industry is riddled with pedophiles and child abusers. I want these kids to have real families, even if it means other kids laugh and make fun of them because their parents are queer.

Do you support Gays demonstrating on our private worship grounds?

No. No more than I support God Hates Fags picketing funerals. Homosexuals who picket churches are no better than the worst of bigots.

Should some one that is attracted to children be granted all the same rights to be happy?

Are you talking about pedophilia? Well, first of all I don't think a pedophile would be interested in making a lifetime commitment to someone who will be unattractive to them in a few years. Now if you mean something like what went on in the FLDS with girls being married off in their early teens then I would say no. The only exeption would be if the girl (or boy) WANTS to get married, if she (or he) is not being coerced into the marriage. Now, I personally do not think it is a good idea to get married in your teens. Statistics show that the later in life a couple gets married, the longer the marriage is likely to last. But it is not for me or anyone else to impose upon another's free choice just because we think we know better. Life is a learning process and no learning can occure unless there is freedom to make mistakes.

I would say the same thing about polygamy, by the way, just in case you are curious.

My point is - if society does not benefit why say it is equal? Do you really believe gay marriage is as important and necessary to society as families that provide children?

Providing children is fine. But I still think that gay couples would do a fine job at raising them.

There is now a movement to remove biological parents as responsible for their children. Gays are paying proxies to provide them children so they can have families. This assumes that biological parents really do not have right and responsibilities. Do you support this movement as well?

Legally, this is a very thorny subject and as far as I know there is no consensus as to how responsible a biological parent is once they have renounced their parental rights. I heard of one case here in the U.S. in which a man offered his sperm to a lesbian couple. A few years later, the couple split up and the mom who got custody demanded child support from her sperm donor. She won! So this man, who presumably has no parental rights, now must shoulder parental responsibility for a kid he never wanted. Tough break. But that's what can happen when you get involved in something for which there are few (if any) legal precedents.

I really don't know. I'm not a lawyer or a judge. What I do know is that there are men out there who will be happy to provide lesbian couples with sperm regardless of what the law says on the matter. If lesbians want to have kids this way there is no stopping them. So it all comes back to what happens to the children who are born from this practice? I say give the lesbians their marriage certificate, with all the rights and responsibilities attendent to it.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Origen

[Origen]

Todd:

Are you certain you met with LDS? You would not be 'lured' from a restaurant and taken to the temple.

My failed attempt at humor But yes, it actually did cross my mind, as I stepped into the SUV with them, are these guys really mormons? What if they kidnap me? Not the smartest thing I have ever done.

And yes, I suppose I really should just talk to someone with authority on these matters. I just don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm going to be a hell-raiser or a rebel who will constantly question authority. I'm really not like that at all. Other people are as entitled to their opinions as I am. I would just like to know if I am free (or not free) to express my opinions in a friendly manner should the topic arise naturally in a conversation. You see, I made this mistake as Jehovah's Witness (assuming I had the right to disagree) and if I had been baptized, I would have gotten disfellowshipped for it. As it turned out, I was simply shunned instead; which is really just as bad.

[Matthew0059]

And yes, I suppose I really should just talk to someone with authority on these matters. I just don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm going to be a hell-raiser or a rebel who will constantly question authority. I'm really not like that at all. Other people are as entitled to their opinions as I am. I would just like to know if I am free (or not free) to express my opinions in a friendly manner should the topic arise naturally in a conversation. You see, I made this mistake as Jehovah's Witness (assuming I had the right to disagree) and if I had been baptized, I would have gotten disfellowshipped for it. As it turned out, I was simply shunned instead; which is really just as bad.

JAG is right: many disagreed with Prop 8 and haven't received official repercussions. I think where the line is drawn as far as disagreements go is do you actively affiliate and/or support with any group or organization that explicitly advocates and promotes gay marriage.

As for masturbation, I can give you my testimony and life experience as to why it is a very bad idea and GOD frowns on it, although I agree with others' stated opinion that it isn't on the level of other sexual sins.

As for tea, it might be helpful to peruse some of the topics on the Word of Wisdom from this board. I know we've had good discussions on it in the past.

Ultimately, the truth of the Church is learned through spiritual means- that is, a receipt of a testimony from the Holy Ghost. This comes through following the commandments GOD has set to receive a testimony, which include study (which you seem to have done extensively) and prayer (which you seem not to have attempted yet). Until you pray, you won't feel a convincing power motivating you to set your doubts aside for the moment and move forward with baptism.

I think it would be wise to meet with "an authority" as you so eloquently state. Your local ward's bishop would undoubtedly suffice.

Doubts and disagreements happen with everyone- some of the strongest apostles from day one have had them. I think the best way to approach it is as if you were building a brick wall from bricks of all shapes and sizes: sometimes you come across a brick that doesn't fit anywhere, but if you keep building you will find a place to put it.

Good luck and GOD bless. :)

[unixknight]

I have a few thoughts on this, if I may.

I believe that gay marriage would serve the same roles that heterosexual marriage does:

1. Encourage gay couples to commit to stable, monogamous relationships which, it is hoped, would slow down the spread of HIV.

So does abstinence, and marriage isn't required for monogamy. I remember about 20 years ago or so the prevailing "wisdom" we were hearing from the left was that marriage was obsolete and unnecessary. Now, suddenly, it's become the most important thing in the universe if you're gay.

2. Provide a social framework in which children could be raised. Of course, homosexuals cannot concieve (without outside help), but they can adopt and while some might not consider having 2 daddys or mommy's the ideal I am absolutely certain that it is far better than growing up in an orphanage or foster home. Speak to someone who has grown up an orphan and they will probably tell you that the foster home industry is riddled with pedophiles and child abusers. I want these kids to have real families, even if it means other kids laugh and make fun of them because their parents are queer.

If I'm reading you right, this is saying that ANY social framework is preferable to an orphanage. Now, I didn't grow up in an orphanage or a foster home so I won't presume to be an expert on them, but I'd hesitate to draw the blanket conclusion that a gay couple would, in all cases, be a better option than any foster home.

No. No more than I support God Hates Fags picketing funerals. Homosexuals who picket churches are no better than the worst of bigots.

Agreed.

Are you talking about pedophilia? Well, first of all I don't think a pedophile would be interested in making a lifetime commitment to someone who will be unattractive to them in a few years. Now if you mean something like what went on in the FLDS with girls being married off in their early teens then I would say no. The only exeption would be if the girl (or boy) WANTS to get married, if she (or he) is not being coerced into the marriage. Now, I personally do not think it is a good idea to get married in your teens. Statistics show that the later in life a couple gets married, the longer the marriage is likely to last. But it is not for me or anyone else to impose upon another's free choice just because we think we know better. Life is a learning process and no learning can occure unless there is freedom to make mistakes.

I would say the same thing about polygamy, by the way, just in case you are curious.

The problem is that if someone takes on the stance of "people should be able to marry whomever they want" then you're opening the door for a lot of side effects. In our society we already have restrictions on who is available to marry based on a wide variety of factors. For example, I can't marry my sister, even if we're both consenting adults. I can't marry a woman who's already married to someone else unless she first gets divorced. I can't marry a man. I can't marry someone who's underage. I can't marry someone who's mentally unable to enter into a contract. The reasons for each of these varies but you see what I'm getting at. "I really love that person and want to spend my life with them" is not reason enough to force a societal change.

Providing children is fine. But I still think that gay couples would do a fine job at raising them.

Could you elaborate a bit on why you think so? Psychologically, children turn out emotionally more stable and successful when raised by a mother and a father, because each parent provides a different perspective. It also means the child will always have access to a parent who can guide them through things like puberty. I have 2 sons and 2 daughters. When my sons needed to learn to shave, how to pee standing up, how to take care of their personal hygiene, get advice with girls, etc they come to me. When my daughters need guidance with things like buying a bra or how to handle their period, they go to their mom. Conversely, when my sons need a more maternal source of emotional support or my daughters need a more paternal source, they have the parent available to fit those needs. A gay couple, by definition, can only supply half of that support without calling in outside help that may or may not be consistent and available.

Further, in this rush to push gay marriage and gay adoption, nobody's actually stopped to do some research into the impact these things will have on our society and on the kids who grow up in gay households. We hear a lot of "Oh it'll be fine gay couples are very stable" but I have yet to hear about any scientific study to support that. In fact, I have heard of studies that found quite the opposite, but those findings tend not to see the light of day in the media.

Legally, this is a very thorny subject and as far as I know there is no consensus as to how responsible a biological parent is once they have renounced their parental rights. I heard of one case here in the U.S. in which a man offered his sperm to a lesbian couple. A few years later, the couple split up and the mom who got custody demanded child support from her sperm donor. She won! So this man, who presumably has no parental rights, now must shoulder parental responsibility for a kid he never wanted. Tough break. But that's what can happen when you get involved in something for which there are few (if any) legal precedents.

Good point, and in my humble opinion a sign that things have been pushed too far. When things start breaking like this, that's usually the point where you know things are out of hand. It's a little like the abortion laws in most places. A man who gets a woman pregnant has absolutely no say whatsoever over whether or not she aborts, yet his life can be irrevocably impacted by her decision. If she chooses to abort, he can't stop her even if he wanted to be a dad, and will have to live with that sadness. If he didn't want to be a dad and she choose to have the child, she can get child support from him even if he never anted to be a father. In some places a man can legally give up his parental rights and avoid child support at the cost of ever being involved in the child's life, but that's not universal.

I really don't know. I'm not a lawyer or a judge. What I do know is that there are men out there who will be happy to provide lesbian couples with sperm regardless of what the law says on the matter. If lesbians want to have kids this way there is no stopping them. So it all comes back to what happens to the children who are born from this practice? I say give the lesbians their marriage certificate, with all the rights and responsibilities attendent to it.

I like that you said "rights and RESPONSIBILITIES." We hear a lot about rights, rights, rights but rarely do people talk about the responsibilities that come with them. But now let me ask you, what responsibilities would you associate with a lesbian couple who wants to raise a child?

[mnn727]

Hello everyone.

A few months ago I was lured out of a fast food restaurant by a pair of LDS who took me to their temple and attempted to convert me. At first I was very skeptical but before long I was impressed with the extent to which LDS doctrine agreed with my own independent conclusions I had drawn since I left my birth religion (Jehovah's Witnesses) and began studying the Bible independently. After this initial meeting, I went to a kind of 'catechism' class where I learned more with some other potential converts. The elder who was teaching us said he couldn't believe that, given my beliefs, I had never been involved with or studied the LDS church. He wanted to convert me on the spot, but I told him I had to wait. He suggested I pray over the matter.

.

really?