Why Does Hell Have To Be Eternal?

[prisonchaplain]

Judgement. Punishment. Hell. Eternal damnation. Horrific words and phrases. A concept difficult to digest. LDS theology has mitigated this teaching, by resigning to hell–or the outer darkness–only the most reprobate and apostate. Nevertheless, the idea that even one human soul would have to spend an unending eternity in hell is one that needs explanation, and perhaps even defending.

C.S. Lewis is known to have said that while he find the doctrine of hell detestable, the question to ask is: “Is it true? I'd argue that if hell is true, we’d best digest and embrace what this reality does to our beliefs.

Scripture does seem clear on the matter:

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Matthew 25:46

God, “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; Romans 2:6-9

God is just: He will pay back trouble to shoe who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

And the devil, who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:28-29

All verses are from the New International Version.

My own thought on the eternal nature of hell: Jesus is not like us. His memory is beyond time, and it does not fade. Therefore, his life of suffering and rejection on earth, his beatings, and those moments of separation from the Heavenly Father–these are all burned into his memory for all eternity. In effect, Jesus lives hell for us for all eternity. He took eternal hell and damnation upon himself at Calvary. Those who reject his love and forgiveness must thus take the everlasting punishment upon themselves.

[Christos]

Excellent post!

I believe that Hell is the eternal seperation between man and God.

When God knows you not.

N.I.V.

Matthew 7:21

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Eternal seperation from God is worse than death, so incomprehensible to us.

As there will be NO presence of God, there will be nothing good.

There will be no hope of escape because those persons have been judged and will not be known by the Lord.

It astounded me how liberal the Mormon view is on Hell. The idea that after life you can be baptised. Also the idea that you can be freed from Hell .

Hell is something that is not to be taken lightly, it is the ultimate place of destruction.

And by the way. Hell is not where the devil reigns . Satan was cast from the Heavenly host. He now walks about Earth. He will be bound in the abyss for a thousand years, freed and then defeated.

If Satan were in Hell....we wouldn't know him and there would be no sin.

[Ray]

Our [LDS] idea of hell is basically the idea of feeling guilt for not doing better or the best we can do in our lives, no matter where we live or how "almost perfect" we become, and we will always have that feeling because we will always be eternal, unless we repent, and do better, and receive forgiveness from God, who will then wipe away those bad feelings from our lives.

[Christos]

No man is perfect.

One sin is just as condemnable as a thousand.

The word "sin" was used by the greeks in javellin competition and means "to fall short of the mark". God uses no learning curve.

Mormons are very nice people and they have a reason to be. But even the cleanest of people can hold the filthiest of sins.

No man can become God.

Hell isn't a sort of custody. A time for reflection on our transgressions. It is the very state of non existance.

Hell is the existance of non existance (and that isn't an oxymoron)

It seems to me that the LDS faith is a very emotional faith, always seeking for warm or cold emotions.

"When you find the truth you get a warm feeling in your bosom"....if you've been taught to have that feeling, you will. Warm feelings can be invented by the mind.

We are taught to feel good when we give a charitable gesture and to feel bad when we transgress, but are emotions a good measure for goodness?

I have a friend who has just left paganism and he used to get the most wonderful feelings when a spell he cast would perform. Is this good?

Basically what I am saying here is that emotions are not something to consider when we think about eternity. Eternity is black and white, you are either saved or you are not.

Lets just hope we're on the right side of the fence.

[Ray]

No man is perfect.

One sin is just as condemnable as a thousand.

The word "sin" was used by the greeks in javellin competition and means "to fall short of the mark". God uses no learning curve.

Mormons are very nice people and they have a reason to be. But even the cleanest of people can hold the filthiest of sins.

No man can become God.

Hell isn't a sort of custody. A time for reflection on our transgressions. It is the very state of non existance.

Hell is the existance of non existance (and that isn't an oxymoron)

It seems to me that the LDS faith is a very emotional faith, always seeking for warm or cold emotions.

"When you find the truth you get a warm feeling in your bosom"....if you've been taught to have that feeling, you will. Warm feelings can be invented by the mind.

We are taught to feel good when we give a charitable gesture and to feel bad when we transgress, but are emotions a good measure for goodness?

I have a friend who has just left paganism and he used to get the most wonderful feelings when a spell he cast would perform. Is this good?

Basically what I am saying here is that emotions are not something to consider when we think about eternity. Eternity is black and white, you are either saved or you are not.

Lets just hope we're on the right side of the fence.

We [LDS] believe that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all of Mankind can become perfect by being cleansed from their sins as if they never sinned, and then go on to becoming even more like Jesus Christ.

If you choose not to believe that, then that is your right, but someday you may regret not learning that.

[Christos]

We too believe in a repentance of our sins. Washed in the blood of Jesus Christ.

[Ray]

We too believe in a repentance of our sins. Washed in the blood of Jesus Christ.

That's good. I enjoy seeing us being able to agree more than disagree, and hopefully, someday, when we don't disagree with each other about anything anymore, and when we totally agree with each other and God about everything, we will all be one. :)

Heh, and while "you may saayay I'm a dreamer... I'm not the only one."

[Christos]

It is better to agree than to disagree or at the very worst, to agree to disagree.

I can't see the non-LDS churches joining with the LDS church due to doctrinal issues but as humans we can be as one...though doctrinally differ.

Equally as you want a union of all Christians to the LDS church, I want a union of all Christians to the Church. The way.

The one Holy Catholic* and Apostolic Church.

* this comes from the Greek word which means union, or whole, not a reference to the Roman church which has adopted this name.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Mormons are very nice people and they have a reason to be. But even the cleanest of people can hold the filthiest of sins.

No man can become God.

But they can become perfect, else why Jesus's "impossible" command to be perfect as our Father in heaven?

It seems to me that the LDS faith is a very emotional faith, always seeking for warm or cold emotions.

"When you find the truth you get a warm feeling in your bosom"....if you've been taught to have that feeling, you will. Warm feelings can be invented by the mind.

Sure. They can also be delivered by the Spirit, as here:

"And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" (Luke 24:32)

We are taught to feel good when we give a charitable gesture and to feel bad when we transgress, but are emotions a good measure for goodness?

A Book of Mormon writer said it best: "Wickedness never was happiness." I refuse the idea that we only feel bad because we're taught to feel bad. When the pilgrims to Jerusalem heard Peter testify on Pentecost, the book of Acts records that they were "pricked in their hearts." So someone taught them to feel a pricking of conscience? Or they were convinced of the truth and "felt" it keenly? I vote for the second.

I have a friend who has just left paganism and he used to get the most wonderful feelings when a spell he cast would perform. Is this good?

You're confusing terms. When we say confirmation of the truth "feels good," we don't mean in a sensual way only (that is, related to the senses). It is Spirit speaking to spirit, a still small voice that doesn't have to pass through our eardrums to be heard. This phenomenon (Spirit leading into truth) produces "feelings" that are very, very "good" or "pure" or "holy" that the devil simply cannot counterfeit. He may try to convince us that physical pleasure is a measure of right or wrong, but we judge truth by the presence or absence of the fruits of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5.

Basically what I am saying here is that emotions are not something to consider when we think about eternity. Eternity is black and white, you are either saved or you are not.

This seems entirely unjust. For there to be one line dividing heaven from hell is to rob the obedient and reward the lazy. What I mean is that if someone does the minimum requirements of getting into heaven, and someone else sacrifices of themselves much more and serves God much more, and they receive the same place in heaven, why would anyone want to "do good" except to feel good? We know you believe feelings are not a good measure of goodness, so what other incentive is their to "be good?"

We know from the New Testament that apostles and prophets have been caught up to differing degrees of heaven (seven for example), so there must be divisions of glory and eternal rewards.

All that aside, where I think you're mistaking LDS doctrine, Christos, is in equating the LDS concept of the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree of glory) with every other church's conception of Hell. This is inaccurate. LDS do believe there is a place of eternal punishment, in every sense of the word, cut off from the influence of the Spirit, Son and Father completely. This is what we call "outer darkness" and equates to what you're describing as Hell.

One more clarification: Just because someone can receive proxy baptism after they're dead, they still have to go through the same process of repentance and submission to God that all of us do on earth...no one cuts corners on a straight and narrow path without corners.

[prisonchaplain]

Our [LDS] idea of hell is basically the idea of feeling guilt for not doing better or the best we can do in our lives, no matter where we live or how "almost perfect" we become, and we will always have that feeling because we will always be eternal, unless we repent, and do better, and receive forgiveness from God, who will then wipe away those bad feelings from our lives.

Ray, is hell hot or not? Is the Lake of Fire real or figurative? Will there be wailing and gnashing of teeth, or is hell merely a place of regrets?

Excellent post!

Thank you.

I believe that Hell is the eternal seperation between man and God. When God knows you not.

While I agree with this, I'm wondering if you're willing to go further? Is hell hot? Is it torment? Is a place of painful punishment, or merely one where sinners regret their rejection of God?

It is better to agree than to disagree or at the very worst, to agree to disagree.

I can't see the non-LDS churches joining with the LDS church due to doctrinal issues but as humans we can be as one...though doctrinally differ. Equally as you want a union of all Christians to the LDS church, I want a union of all Christians to the Church. The way. The one Holy Catholic* and Apostolic Church.

I think a fair compromise would be for you both to come over the the A/G. Ray could continue to enjoy the leading of the Holy Spirit, he'd get a lot more enjoyment out of the singing (we not only have 'mechanical instruments'--we 'jam for Jesus'), and Christos could find a good melding of ancient doctrinal tradition with very contemporary religious practice.

Hey...this dreaming thing is kinda catchy!

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Our [LDS] idea of hell is basically the idea of feeling guilt for not doing better or the best we can do in our lives, no matter where we live or how "almost perfect" we become, and we will always have that feeling because we will always be eternal, unless we repent, and do better, and receive forgiveness from God, who will then wipe away those bad feelings from our lives.

Ray, is hell hot or not? Is the Lake of Fire real or figurative? Will there be wailing and gnashing of teeth, or is hell merely a place of regrets?

Heh, am I speaking to someone who has never felt "guilt", or the pain of a "seared" conscience?

Yes, when you feel that kind of pain, it is very real, although the "Lake of Fire" isn't an actual lake of lava or some kind of bubbling fire.

Try thinking of what our Savior felt when in the garden of Gethsemane, which caused Him so much pain that He actually swet with drops of blood... and yes, that actually happened, whether or not you actually believe it.

[prisonchaplain]

This seems entirely unjust. For there to be one line dividing heaven from hell is to rob the obedient and reward the lazy.

I have to start here, because this thought--that a doctrine appears to make God unjust--is the core issue of this string. C.S. Lewis is right--it's either true or not, and our faith must comply with God's revealed truth, no matter how unfair it may seem at first glance, through our "dim glass" (ref. 1 Cor. 13--we see through a glass, dimly).

What I mean is that if someone does the minimum requirements of getting into heaven, and someone else sacrifices of themselves much more and serves God much more, and they receive the same place in heaven, why would anyone want to "do good" except to feel good? We know you believe feelings are not a good measure of goodness, so what other incentive is their to "be good?"

First, to verify your summary--the parable of the laborers in the field, some hired in the morning, some at noon, some at 3:00, and some one hour before the close of day--where all are paid the same wages, and the early workers are told not to complain, because they got what they were promised, and it's not there's to be concerned with how much the master pays the later workers.

As for incentive for obeying God, how about relationship and gratitude? My God sent his Son to die for my sins. I can't possibly begin to pay him back. But, out of thankfulness, I pray that the Spirit of God will so fill me that I might live a life worthy of his great sacrifice.

BTW, I do believe that within the one heaven, those who've been martyred, and those who have produced the 100-fold harvests will be recognized. However, I love the story as to how this might happen. We bring our gifts (lives, sacrifices, hardships, good works, etc.) before the Master. They are placed in the fire. That which is worthy comes out as gold. That which is not, as chaffe. We then bring our gift to him. Who wouldn't want to bring a precious gift of thanksgiving? While none will be shamed, for all at least embraced Christ's love, those who 'gave it all' will receive their rewards 100 times over.

We know from the New Testament that apostles and prophets have been caught up to differing degrees of heaven (seven for example), so there must be divisions of glory and eternal rewards.

We have wandered into an area of speculation, but I believe many Christians could imagine within heaven, varying rewards based on one's faithfulness, sacrifice, obedience, etc.

Heh, am I speaking to someone who has never felt "guilt", or the pain of a "seared" conscience? Yes, when you feel that kind of pain, it is very real, although the "Lake of Fire" isn't an actual lake of lava or some kind of bubbling fire. Try thinking of what our Savior felt when in the garden of Gethsemane, which caused Him so much pain that He actually swet with drops of blood... and yes, that actually happened, whether or not you actually believe it.

I don't disagree about guilt being painful. However, I'm trying to ascertain whether you believe hell is physical place, where the suffering will be physical, as well as emotional and spiritual. I don't want to be morbid, but, if hell is real, it is a place to be feared. God is smarter than us, and I fear that sometimes we (and I am lumping all branches of Christianity here) downplay the horror of hell, by describing it in purely emotional, psychological terms: separation from God, a place of guilt and regret, etc.

I gotta go with the old country preachers on this one: hell's hot and heaven's real.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I have to start here, because this thought--that a doctrine appears to make God unjust--is the core issue of this string.

If a doctrine appears to make God unjust, maybe it's because it does...which makes it false. :)

First, to verify your summary--the parable of the laborers in the field, some hired in the morning, some at noon, some at 3:00, and some one hour before the close of day--where all are paid the same wages, and the early workers are told not to complain, because they got what they were promised, and it's not there's to be concerned with how much the master pays the later workers.

This comparison is a defective one. The point of the parable is that whether someone gave their all for five years or ten years...whenever they had the chance to understand, accept and serve the Master, their reward is the same for they gave their best (regardless of duration).

On the other hand, my comparison was to two people who both had the same amount of time to serve the Master, the same opportunity and knowledge, and one gave all while the other gave "just enough." In that case, for both workers to get one penny is unjust, and God is very just. A better parable to compare to my views is Jesus' parable of the talents, where three servants have the same amount of time to add to their stewardship, and each is rewarded depending on what they did with their opportunity.

I think we agree more than either of us thinks. I'm talking about degrees of reward and eternal felicity. Whether that takes the shape of degrees of glory or more satisfaction for serving God more, my point is that justice requires a reward to match the sacrifice.

As for incentive for obeying God, how about relationship and gratitude? My God sent his Son to die for my sins. I can't possibly begin to pay him back. But, out of thankfulness, I pray that the Spirit of God will so fill me that I might live a life worthy of his great sacrifice.

Well spoken. I agree. The difference is that LDS believe there are a discrete number of covenants and commandments (some received in the Temple) given to define the relationship between man and God. Those who keep certain covenants qualify for different degrees of intimacy with the Father hereafter. We don't earn it, because that implies giving something of equal value and we are forever indebted to God. However, I certainly believe in a God who rewards obedience, and different amounts thereof.

While none will be shamed, for all at least embraced Christ's love, those who 'gave it all' will receive their rewards 100 times over.

Sounds the same as receiving a greater reward for more sacrifice. That's what I've been saying.

...I believe many Christians could imagine within heaven, varying rewards based on one's faithfulness, sacrifice, obedience, etc.

That sums up the LDS view. So where's the difference? <he asked rhetorically> I know there's a difference, no need to set me straight, it just strikes me how similar our views are at their core. To modify a phrase: "How Semantic the Divide." :)

God is smarter than us, and I fear that sometimes we (and I am lumping all branches of Christianity here) downplay the horror of hell, by describing it in purely emotional, psychological terms: separation from God, a place of guilt and regret, etc.

I agree to a point. As great as God's love is, equally awful His displeasure must be.

I think many of us will be surprised at how merciful God will be, and many of us will surprised at how stern He will be. I think that Hell (read: outer darkness) is a physical place because Paul teaches in Corinthians that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. In other words, everyone will receive a resurrected body of flesh and bone after the pattern of Christ's (though not necessarily as glorious). So it follows that a place of punishment for those with physical bodies must be a physical place.

To get a little personal here: I have a chemical deficiency. I treat it with medication. It is not perfect treatment. My experience is that from time to time it prevents me from feeling the Spirit/God's love regardless of my obedience. I use the comparison of a solar-powered house. My solar cells might be working fine, but if a cloud blocks the light for a time all functions and appliances in the house cease to operate even if mechanically they are sound.

In my darkest hour, I have felt like tearing my hair out by the roots, scraping my face off with my fingernails, bashing my head against a brick wall and other equally unpleasant and indescribably horrible things. Glad to say I haven't disfigured myself in the throes of madness, but I have often reflected that if I had to feel that forever, with no end to the eclipse of my soul, I would indeed be in a Hell worse than flames charring my resurrected flesh eternally. I'd be at a McDonald's from Hell, with a super-size bitter cup with unlimited and mandatory refills.

[prisonchaplain]

If a doctrine appears to make God unjust, maybe it's because it does...which makes it false. :)

I don't want to be over-dramatic, but such is the thinking that has led to so many heresies. Adam and Eve thinking it not fair that God would deny them the pleasing-looking fruit, Cain angered that the innovations in his sacrifice were not accepted by God, and in more modern times, Charles Taze Russell, unable to embrace the doctrine of hell, eventually founding the precursor to the modern Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. How many have lost their faith at the seeming unfairness of a child succumbing to sickness, a loved one lost to a drunk driver, etc. 57% of Jews do not believe in God. Why? The Holocaust.

No, no. If a doctrine seems to make God unfair, it may require added scrutiny. But our attitude must be, "God, what are you saying here? What would you have me know, understand, believe, and do?" We dare not go further, "God, this just isn't right! Show me how to make it more palatable. In fact, let me dig through your Word, and corral it, so it is pleasing in my own eyes."

AK, I know you are not suggesting this last approach. My fear is that if our first response to hearing something from God we do not like is, "Let's fix it," we will quickly find ourselves headed towards heresy. "Every man did what was right in his own eyes," Scripture tells us, concerning the last days.

This comparison is a defective one. The point of the parable is that whether someone gave their all for five years or ten years...whenever they had the chance to understand, accept and serve the Master, their reward is the same for they gave their best (regardless of duration).

No, that is not the point. The point is God is God, and He gives everyone a good deal. Nobody will be cheated. His love and mercy is extravagant. Some will be forgiven much more than others. Some will serve much less time, much less hardship, etc. than others. We'll all end up in the same kingdom.

On the other hand, my comparison was to two people who both had the same amount of time to serve the Master, the same opportunity and knowledge, and one gave all while the other gave "just enough." In that case, for both workers to get one penny is unjust, and God is very just. A better parable to compare to my views is Jesus' parable of the talents, where three servants have the same amount of time to add to their stewardship, and each is rewarded depending on what they did with their opportunity.

There ain't no such animal as "just enough." In the parable you cite, the fellow who buried his talent was cast into outer darkness. The fact that he returned what he gave--thinking it 'just enough'--only enraged the Master. The other two stewards both doubled their talents. Consider to the Laodiceans (Rev. 3). The lukewarm believers were cast out--rejected. They were not true believers. True believers will give their all.

I think we agree more than either of us thinks. I'm talking about degrees of reward and eternal felicity. Whether that takes the shape of degrees of glory or more satisfaction for serving God more, my point is that justice requires a reward to match the sacrifice.

You can have justice! I don't want it. Justice means hell for us all--there's none worthy, no not one. I want God's mercy and grace. I dare say, all who enter the kingdom of God are recipients of mercy, not justice.

Well spoken. I agree. The difference is that LDS believe there are a discrete number of covenants and commandments (some received in the Temple) given to define the relationship between man and God. Those who keep certain covenants qualify for different degrees of intimacy with the Father hereafter. We don't earn it, because that implies giving something of equal value and we are forever indebted to God. However, I certainly believe in a God who rewards obedience, and different amounts thereof.

Another poster--Jason I believe--suggested that there are gnostic nuances with LDS spirituality. Without prying, I'll tell you that to the outsider, LDS Temple practices (sacred to you, secret to us) do carry that sense. I don't say this as criticism, but simply as a note of interest (there aren't too many anti-Gnostic ministries, at least not that I know of).

That sums up the LDS view. So where's the difference? <he asked rhetorically> I know there's a difference, no need to set me straight, it just strikes me how similar our views are at their core. To modify a phrase: "How Semantic the Divide." :)

Yeah, but the setting straight is such fun (why should dentists have all the good times??? ). Seriously, a key different that is worth highlighting is that non-LDS believe that we'll all be in the same heavenly kingdom, regardless of levels or degrees of reward.

I agree to a point. As great as God's love is, equally awful His displeasure must be.

I think many of us will be surprised at how merciful God will be, and many of us will surprised at how stern He will be. I think that Hell (read: outer darkness) is a physical place because Paul teaches in Corinthians that as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. In other words, everyone will receive a resurrected body of flesh and bone after the pattern of Christ's (though not necessarily as glorious). So it follows that a place of punishment for those with physical bodies must be a physical place.

To get a little personal here: I have a chemical deficiency. I treat it with medication. It is not perfect treatment. My experience is that from time to time it prevents me from feeling the Spirit/God's love regardless of my obedience. I use the comparison of a solar-powered house. My solar cells might be working fine, but if a cloud blocks the light for a time all functions and appliances in the house cease to operate even if mechanically they are sound.

In my darkest hour, I have felt like tearing my hair out by the roots, scraping my face off with my fingernails, bashing my head against a brick wall and other equally unpleasant and indescribably horrible things. Glad to say I haven't disfigured myself in the throes of madness, but I have often reflected that if I had to feel that forever, with no end to the eclipse of my soul, I would indeed be in a Hell worse than flames charring my resurrected flesh eternally. I'd be at a McDonald's from Hell, with a super-size bitter cup with unlimited and mandatory refills.

I did not dare edit or shorten this section. Thank you for sharing so personally in this venue. Sadly, but importantly, you truly do have a better taste of hell than most. My only addition to your point is that we fool ourselves if we think that hell will be less difficult than what AK, and so many others experience in this existence.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

My fear is that if our first response to hearing something from God we do not like is, "Let's fix it," we will quickly find ourselves headed towards heresy.

But we don't even agree on what God has said, so we're not even to a point of fixing anything. It's fruitless to tell me to be careful of fixing God's word, because what you mean is fixing your understanding of God's word. Which is different than mine. I wouldn't dare dictate to God what's fair or not, because I don't quite have the omniscience thing down, and He does. :)

We'll all end up in the same kingdom.

All roads don't lead to heaven. There's one, and it's straight, narrow and few there be that find it (Jesus's words, not mine).

The other two stewards both doubled their talents.

Right...they both received different rewards according to their obedience. The Lord didn't say, "Good job, but y'know, it just wouldn't be fair if one of you got more than the other so here, you both get the same increase 'cause you both tried real hard."

I learned me some math, and that done don't make no sense or add up. Paul speaks of different degrees of glory or resurrections (1 Cor. 15), and I'm guessing God has some system of deciding who gets what, not just shilly-shally point-and-shoot spin-the-wheel recompense.

You can have justice! I don't want it. Justice means hell for us all--there's none worthy, no not one. I want God's mercy and grace. I dare say, all who enter the kingdom of God are recipients of mercy, not justice.

But PC, surely you know that Christ's mercy's sole purpose is to make us clean and worthy of a just reward we otherwise wouldn't merit? I never said I only want justice...but if there were no just punishment to avert, there'd be no just reward to receive. The beauty is that Christ makes us worthy, sanctifies us through his grace, so that God can reward us without robbing justice, or the conditions of receiving the reward. To cry "Mercy!" is but half the equation. Justice is required. Mercy cannot rob or destroy justice. Together, they act in unison to bring us back to God.

Without prying, I'll tell you that to the outsider, LDS Temple practices (sacred to you, secret to us) do carry that sense.

They don't have to be secret to anyone. Everyone may receive the same things I've received in the Temple, and in fact, that's one reason we exert such a vigorous missionary effort. We want everyone to have what we have because it brings joy.

Seriously, a key different that is worth highlighting is that non-LDS believe that we'll all be in the same heavenly kingdom, regardless of levels or degrees of reward.

Such a belief to me robs justice. God gives commandments. He rewards those who keep them. If He rewarded everyone regardless of what commandments they obeyed, as long as they "accepted Jesus," I'd say that's a capricious and ephemeral god unworthy of a capital "G." The key is, of course, to qualify for a perfect reward through through Christ's perfect grace...all to make it just for God to dispense a reward that imperfect beings wouldn't otherwise merit.

I did not dare edit or shorten this section. Thank you for sharing so personally in this venue. Sadly, but importantly, you truly do have a better taste of hell than most. My only addition to your point is that we fool ourselves if we think that hell will be less difficult than what AK, and so many others experience in this existence.

That, PC, I can heartily say "Amen" to.

[ALatterDaySaint]

The Lord has made worlds without number, and all the stars and sattelites in the universe. We reside on this sphere called Earth and the scriptures teach that the Lord lives on a sphere known to us as Kolob. The book of Rev. speaks of a lake of fire and LDS thology speaks of the Telestial kingdom as the glory of the stars. Perhaps this lake of fire is a description of the burning stars that those who gain a telestial glory will go. I mean why would there be a huge lake of fire out in the middle of no where that just happens to be large enough for all sinners to fit into? But it makes perfect sense that the lake of fire could be a burning star. There are more than enough stars out there for each sinner to get their own personal and lonly "lake of fire". Now, does the fire burn? "Is it Hot" as PrisionChap inquired... That I dont know, but I highly doubt it. I believe the most horrible aspect of judgment will be when the person you became stands face to face as it were with who you could have become.

The goal of the Atonement was to gain access to the Father once again for all of us His children. That tells me that the punishment for not partaking in this plan wouldnt be physical torture but rather complete and utter seperation from God. And that of itself is more painful and horrifying and devistating than any burning flame. I believe a nice hot fire under my booty would be a welcome distraction to the fact that I could never recover from that state of eternal seperation from the one who created me and loved me beyond measure.

Now, why do I believe that there are degrees of glory? Because while sin is the factor that seperats us from the divine there are greater and lesser sins. ALL sin disqualifies us from Heaven without the atonement but nonetheless there are greater and lesser sins. Such as, can you go to hell for running a stop sign? Its not on the Ten Commandments but we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, etc etc..

So just as in this life, when you get a speeding ticket you dont go to Prision and get Death Row but rather you pay a fine so it is in the eternities...you get whats comming to you. The punishment will fit the crime.

So, if you belive that a 9 year old kid boy or girl who hasnt even had a chance to commit any real sin other than maybe steal some candy or tell a couple of lies or cheat on a test, and didnt recive the Lord as their savior, is going to be condemed the same as an adult who did get the chance but refused and then went out and killed or raped or flew a plain into a world trade center....then your idea of "just" is way out in left field. For God is Just and His house is order.

[Ray]

According to the words of our Lord:

…the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. – Matthew 16: 27

According to the words of the apostle and prophet Peter:

… if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear…

…being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever…

… laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desiring the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: – 1 Peter 1:17, 23, 2:1-2

According to the words of the apostle and prophet James:

…be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. – James 1:22-25

According to the words of the apostle and prophet John:

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. – 2 John 1:8

According to the words of the apostle and prophet Paul:

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. – 1 Corinthians 3:8

… and I could quote many other words from many other prophets and apostles of God, but basically they’re all saying that we will be judged and rewarded based on the work we have done, with the understanding that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ every kind of good work is possible… as we grow… and develop… and become perfect through Jesus Christ.

And btw, I know this is true, and I won’t argue about it, and will now leave you all to learn this for yourself.

[ALatterDaySaint]

Where do you think the term "Cold as H*ll" came from? If Hell is so hot...

[Sugarbay]

For those consigned to hell, they chose in life what they chose so they must like to be separated from Father.

So what fun would hell be for them if it wern't eternal.

Just a thought...

[Christos]

For those consigned to hell, they chose in life what they chose so they must like to be separated from Father.

So what fun would hell be for them if it wern't eternal.

Just a thought...

I could choose not to go to school tomorrow. But I might not enjoy being at home, on my own, with nothing to do.

Every sin I act, I choose.

I actually choose to sin against the heavenly father.

This doesn't mean that I get pleasure from it.

I actually feel like ripping my own stomach open at the thought of it.

[Traveler]

For what-ever it is worth, I though to add my opinion to the ideas being expressed about Hell. I am aware of the many scriptures and various ways to interpret the scriptures. I guess you could say I have chosen to interpret the scriptures in a manner that makes sense to me and is consistent with what I believe and understand about G-d the Father and his Son Jesus The Christ.

I believe that what the scriptures say of Hell is very symbolic (not literal) – yet provide important and useful information.

I believe that the only persons in Hell will be there because they want badly (pun intended) to be there. I also believe anyone in Hell that wants out can get out any time they want. And I believe G-d does not send anyone there but that - that is where they desire and love to be. I believe G-d sorrows over every sole in Hell and therefore he allows them to be there only because they prefer it – not him!!!

I believe G-d created Hell for those that do not want to be with him in heaven and that he has provided every possible benefit that those in hell would accept and live with comfortably. I do not believe G-d condemns those that desire to be in hell but their condemnation is self inflected. I also believe that everyone that cannot give up some sin because of their desire for it will (and do) on their own choose to live in hell – this despite of what they believe of G-d or of Christ. If someone cannot give up any sin because of their desire for it – I do believe they rationalize and lie to themselves about where that love of sin is taking them.

I do not think that either G-d the Father or G-d the Son will force anyone to Hell or heaven. I also believe that someone that loves any sin will enjoy hell infinitely more than they would hanging out with G-d in heaven. I believe G-d created hell to be a benefit (as much as possible) for those that do not desire heaven. I believe Hell exist because of the mercy, compassion and love of G-d for his children.

I believe in the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus has suffered all that is necessary for all sin and all possible sin by any entity that can commit sin; for ever. In fact my friends, I believe that if Satan were to turn from sin that G-d would figure a way to get even him out of hell. Now I do want to debate the issue of Satan and sin only that if (which is a mighty big if) Satan would turn – G-d would help him. I believe that; and I believe that if you want his help he will help you as well – regardless of what you have done or when you decide to seek his help or how many times you have mess up but G-d will not force anybody to turn from sin. I realize that even some LDS do not interpret scripture as I do and see this differently. And you are all welcome to what you want to believe (which in essence is your own personal heaven or hell) but as for me I believe in the eternal love of G-d and that he desires to help anyone, anywhere, anytime – NO EXCEPTIONS.

The Traveler

[Ray]

I totally agree with you, Traveler.

Hell is actually heaven for those of us who truly "love" what to God is evil or sin...

...or, to put it another way...

Hell is actually heaven for those of us who truly "hate" what to God is good or righteousness.

And I also believe we can be redeemed from Hell when and IF we can change our desire to "love" evil.

[Sugarbay]

That is basically what I said. Those that chose to be evil will leave here with the same attitudes they had here. They enjoyed sin and evil here then hell won't be eternal enough for them. If it weren't, like I said, what fun would that be for them.

[Ray]

Sorry, I guess I also should have said that I totally agree with you...

...and with ALatterDaySaint...

...and with a few other people who have shared their thoughts on this issue too. :)

[Christos]

Cool!

So if hell is what you say it is.

When I am in Heaven I'll take one of those little excursions to Hell and back.

All you have to do is hate God for a day.

This all seems to liberal to be true, and I don't know what scriptures you are using but they certainly don't appear to be mine.