Why Does Hell Have To Be Eternal?

[ALatterDaySaint]

I really enjoyed Travler's thoughts. I do see where he is comming from. Some of it though makes me think of Budisim and eternal reiencarnation towards enlightenment... Other than that it seems to me to be completely scripture founded. I do believe also that even if Satan turned back to the Lord that the atonement would be in full authority, and I base this on the fact that the Lord Christ has said "With God all things are possible". But, as several of you have stated already its not about Christ's decisions...its about ours and our free choice to "choose whom we shall serve".

Now, lets say the devil did turn back to God...how would that play out? I guess he'd have to wait until another "earth" was started up again for more children and go there and gain a body... And another weird thing to think about is if all this is possible *and this is all just hypathetical* but if Satan could in theory repent then why not the demons? And if so have any demons repented and been able to "keep their first estate" and thus come to this earth and gain a body and partake of the plan of salvation???? This explains my nephew perfectly! hahaha! only joking on that part.

But seriously, Traveler you spur many fun and insightful thoughts. Good show!

[prisonchaplain]

But we don't even agree on what God has said, so we're not even to a point of fixing anything. It's fruitless to tell me to be careful of fixing God's word, because what you mean is fixing your understanding of God's word. Which is different than mine. I wouldn't dare dictate to God what's fair or not, because I don't quite have the omniscience thing down, and He does. :)

Perhaps you are ultimately agreeing with me here--at least on my basic proposal. I've not suggested a particular doctrine that we need to agree with, here (well, perhaps the notion of everlasting physical/emotional/spiritual torment in hell...but I'm not sure we disagree about that, at least generally). Rather, my simple point is that individually, and corporately, when approaching the Word of God, we not seek what makes sense or seems fair, but simply what God is actually saying. Once we have assurance about that, we can consider how best to live it, explain it, and proclaim it. Error comes when we try to downplay or aggressively repackage God's truths.

All roads don't lead to heaven. There's one, and it's straight, narrow and few there be that find it (Jesus's words, not mine).

I agree with your words here. My point, though, was that all believers who are found to be righteous by God will end up in the same kingdom (heaven). There may be degrees of reward, but only one kingdom. I probably would argue even more aggressively than you about the one straight and narrow path, since I do not believe that non-Christians will inherit any heavenly kingdom at all.

BTW, the way is narrow, not because only a few are allowed, but because there is only one way--Jesus. Also, the way to embrace Jesus is through the humility of repentence and surrender. Many are not willing to humble themselves, and thus be lifted up.

Right...they both received different rewards according to their obedience.

I'm not sure I'd say it was according to their obedience, since they both achieved the same percentage increase. Rather, the five-talent steward had already proven himself faithful in smaller things, and thus was given more responsibility. Also, I'm not so sure the rewards were different--rather the level of responsibility was. Both were obedient, and both earned the favor of the Master. Both were on the same team.

But PC, surely you know that Christ's mercy's sole purpose is to make us clean and worthy of a just reward we otherwise wouldn't merit? I never said I only want justice...but if there were no just punishment to avert, there'd be no just reward to receive. The beauty is that Christ makes us worthy, sanctifies us through his grace, so that God can reward us without robbing justice, or the conditions of receiving the reward. To cry "Mercy!" is but half the equation. Justice is required. Mercy cannot rob or destroy justice. Together, they act in unison to bring us back to God.

God's mercy "justifies" us. There's the justice. Christ took the punishment, he paid the price--he satisfied the demands of justice. All that I do AFTER receiving Christ's mercy is out of gratitude, not repayment.

They don't have to be secret to anyone. Everyone may receive the same things I've received in the Temple, and in fact, that's one reason we exert such a vigorous missionary effort. We want everyone to have what we have because it brings joy.

Gnostics would have said the same thing. You can know--come in and see. But, you couldn't get in unless you joined.

Such a belief to me robs justice. God gives commandments. He rewards those who keep them. If He rewarded everyone regardless of what commandments they obeyed, as long as they "accepted Jesus," I'd say that's a capricious and ephemeral god unworthy of a capital "G." The key is, of course, to qualify for a perfect reward through through Christ's perfect grace...all to make it just for God to dispense a reward that imperfect beings wouldn't otherwise merit.

If we start from the scriptural assumption that none of us is worthy, all have entered by grace, the entry into the Kingdom is the big gift for all of us. Within that kingdom of grace, there will be varying rewards, according to faithfulness, etc. Additionally, I would imagine that the type and degree of work we are given will depend on the level of responsibility we showed in our earthly existence.

[prisonchaplain]

I believe that what the scriptures say of Hell is very symbolic (not literal) – yet provide important and useful information.

I suppose my disagreement with this first section, explains everything. Whether hell is an actual lake of fire, or is actually composed of fire and brimstone, is perhaps not so important. But, that hell is real, painful in every way, and this it is a place of punishment, not decision-making, seems quite clear in any but the most allegorical of interpretations.

I believe that the only persons in Hell will be there because they want badly (pun intended) to be there.

I disagree. The Laodiceans considered themselves believers, but were spit out for their lukewarmness. Many will say on the day of judgment, "Lord, Lord," but Jesus will reject them, saying he knew them not. Passiveness, pride and delusion are but three of the many pathways to hell.

I also believe anyone in Hell that wants out can get out any time they want.

The torment is described as being everlasting. And, it is judgement. The offender does not get to choose his/her sentence.

I believe G-d created Hell for those that do not want to be with him in heaven and that he has provided every possible benefit that those in hell would accept and live with comfortably.

I don't know what you are describing here, but it is not a "hell" many would recognize.

I also believe that someone that loves any sin will enjoy hell infinitely more than they would hanging out with G-d in heaven. I believe G-d created hell to be a benefit (as much as possible) for those that do not desire heaven. I believe Hell exist because of the mercy, compassion and love of G-d for his children.

I frankly fear that some sinners will be deluded into thinking that this is so. Hell is a place of punishment and agony. Scripture tells us that on that great and glorious day everyone will bow and recognize that Jesus is Lord. It will be a day of rejoicing or tremendous sorrow, but no one will rejoice at going to hell.

I believe in the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus has suffered all that is necessary for all sin and all possible sin by any entity that can commit sin; for ever.

It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement. This kind of talk could delude many into a sense of complacency.

I believe in the eternal love of G-d and that he desires to help anyone, anywhere, anytime – NO EXCEPTIONS.

The rich man who found himself in torment couldn't even get a drop of water, much less a reprieve. Furthermore, he was not allowed to warn his family. His time was done, his fate sealed. Such is the nature of hell.

BTW, I'm no "fire and brimstone" type preacher. Very few ministers relish sermons on this subject. But, as C.S. Lewis correctly observed, however distasteful, or even detestable we may find the teaching, it's in the Book. Rather than try to make it palatable, we need to see what God would have us to do with this hard truth.

[Ray]

I don't expect you to believe me when I tell you these words are true, but at least you'll have something to think about until you learn for yourself what is true and who you should believe.

HELL

And btw, those words are true, no matter what or who you choose to believe... and "one" Who will tell you that too. :)

[Traveler]

BTW, I'm no "fire and brimstone" type preacher. Very few ministers relish sermons on this subject. But, as C.S. Lewis correctly observed, however distasteful, or even detestable we may find the teaching, it's in the Book. Rather than try to make it palatable, we need to see what God would have us to do with this hard truth.

PC: I think your interpretation of scripture regarding hell is not only disconnected, misleading and wrong but it contradicts every notion that I understand about G-d the Father and the messiah Jesus Christ. But do not think that I expect you to be punished for your delusions; G-d the Father and Jesus Christ as I know and understand them are too merciful and kind for such things.

Point 1: Hell is a very exclusive place for sinners only. Without a sinner passport no body gets into hell. Anyone trying to get into hell without sin is not allowed. Regardless what anyone may think, believe or try to prove from scripture the bottom line is quite simple – Without sin no one gets into hell or is allowed to “enjoy” anything hell has to offer. And furthermore anyone in hell that sheds their sins or turns their backs on sin or looses their sinner passport to hell will be immediately kicked out. If you like we can discuss what shedding one’s sins or turning their backs on sin or loosing a sinner passport in tells. My point is that sin is REQUIRED for anyone and everyone in hell.

Pont 2: The Messiah – Jesus Christ has already interceded for everybody’s sins. He has paid the debt in full, 100% and there is nothing left to be paid. Nothing!!! Anyone (including G-d) that believes or seeks punishment for their own sins or for anyone else to be punished for sins does so unjustly and outside of justice because that price has already been paid. Again regardless of what anyone thinks, believes or interprets scripture (or anything else) to mean, the simple truth as I understand it is that to believe it is necessary to punish anyone for any sin is to not believe in Christ and his atonement. Satan does not believe in the atonement and believes that he and everybody that has sinned must suffer for sins and reap the full effects of sin and if necessary he can prove his points from scripture. This is contrary to justice and truth and is sick and wrong. It is a lie – but you may believe punishment for sin is necessary if you wish, you can blame this belief on scripture if you wish. I do not wish to be associated in any way to such false thinking. Because of the atonement of Christ punishment for sin is not necessary.

Point 3: G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are not hypocrites. They do not preach one thing to mankind and then believe and do something different themselves. They are the very examples of everything they teach. One of the great teachings of Jesus Christ, that he got directly from the Father and as the mediator, and passed this great understanding to us: This is the teaching, “To do good to them that curse you”. The only beings that curse G-d or Jesus are either those in hell or those trying with all their might to get to hell. To visualize the divine as beings that delight in casting (forcing) such soles into hell for punishment is not a vision I share – nor do I want to share it. I personally believe the only way for someone to get to hell and be punished is to reject G-d and justice and desire and want hell instead. They must choose it - Hell is a choice plain and simple.

Point 4: Jesus has power greater than hell and he has power over hell. Regardless of the hold that hell has on anyone, Jesus can and will deliver them whenever they will let him. Now we may discuss how someone in hell allows Jesus to deliver them but my point is to make sure that everyone understands that Jesus has such power and that he can deliver a sole from hell. I believe this to be Good News and it is my desire to share this news with anyone willing to listen. But I will not force them to believe it. If they do not want to believe it for any reason I believe it is their choice. Should they ever have a change of heart (which is the meaning of repentance) I think they should know that with G-d deliverance from hell is possible. The only way to prevent deliverance from hell is to desire something more than deliverance. Jesus will not force deliverance upon those that do not desire it.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Traveler,

I think I understand what you're saying, and I think I agree with your thoughts, but would you please answer one question to help me make sure that we understand each other:

Since Jesus Christ did pay the complete debt for all of our sins, and I do totally agree with that fact, why are and why will there be people who receive different degrees of glory?

Thank you very much for your time. :)

And btw, I think the thoughts I'm hearing from you could also be explained by saying that you believe there are different degrees of Hell and only one degree of Heaven... and that any degree of Hell would not be Heaven for God... although it could be considered to be Heaven for those who do not want to be with God.

[Christos]

First of all I will say this.

I do not know, nor does anyone else, know who or what will be rewarded, or on what degree. But what we do know is that we shall be rewarded.

Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

I don't believe there are any degrees of Hell. Are there any degrees of total destruction?

However, I found some diagrams on the e-sword website (they have to be downloaded) and the writer draws the diagrams of the underworld as having.

Hell as a waiting place for the damned (opposite of paradise)

Tartaris is the prison of the fallen angels

The Abyss is the bottomless pit (obviously) into which the beast is cast.

And that everything eventually gets sent to the lake of fire (after judgement)....which would make the place we're thinking of, Hell.

Heres a diagram that has the same information I'm referring to on it.

http://www.baptistlink.com/rklist/larkin_r...0Underworld.png

I put it as an url because it is a big picture.

[Ray]

First of all I will say this.

I do not know, nor does anyone else know, who or what will be rewarded, or on what degree. But what we do know is that we shall be rewarded.

Uh hmm. Excuse me...

1) The "who" in "who ... will be rewarded" is all of us who have accepted Christ, while trying to become like Him, by doing what He has told us to do, in obedience to the commands of our Father.

2) The "what" in "what will be rewarded" is all of our good works, while trying to become like Christ, in doing what our Lord has told us to do, in obedience to the commands of our Father.

3) The "to what degree" in "to what degree we will be rewarded" is to whatever degree we have become like Christ, in doing what our Lord has told us to do, in obedience to the commands of our Father.

...or in other words, while you may not know all of those things, there are many of us who do.

[Christos]

Nobody here knows how we will be rewarded or what with (apart from life eternal).

I keep my original statement, you have only interpreted it.

[Ray]

Nobody here knows how we will be rewarded or what with (apart from life eternal).

Heh, okay:

The "how" in "how we will be rewarded" will be in how we became like Christ.

And the "what with" in "what with will we be rewarded" will be from all the blessings from God.

I keep my original statement, you have only interpreted it.

And you have only interpreted what I said, which may or may not be rewarded.

[Christos]

Does it not occur to you that when a sentence is conceived it can be written in a more concise than it needs to be, on the assumption that the audience understands the subject.

What I mean by "sentence" is a series of words joined in a row to create a senseful statement, or question, or command.

What I mean by conceived is not the sexual nature that such a word is associated with but rather the act of creating from little or non existing material.

What I mean by written is not to be written by a pen but rather to be typed onto the internet in a string of electronic information bearing numbers.

What I mean by assumption is to have a pre thought out knowledge of who my audience is, to know or guess what their current knowledge is on the subject I wish to write.

What I mean by audience is the person who chooses to browse this webpage (of whom I hope is lost)

What I mean by "understands" is similar in meaning to comprehend....look it up.

What I mean by subject is the semantic area or field of which I am writing in.

I wouldn't hold your breath on a commentary of the commentary.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

I think I understand what you're saying, and I think I agree with your thoughts, but would you please answer one question to help me make sure that we understand each other:

Since Jesus Christ did pay the complete debt for all of our sins, and I do totally agree with that fact, why are and why will there be people who receive different degrees of glory?

Thank you very much for your time. :)

And btw, I think the thoughts I'm hearing from you could also be explained by saying that you believe there are different degrees of Hell and only one degree of Heaven... and that any degree of Hell would not be Heaven for God... although it could be considered to be Heaven for those who do not want to be with God.

Sin has nothing to do with glory. The reason I believe there are kingdoms of glory is so we can choose which glory we really like. Those that want and desire a Celestial Glory will live there. It will not take a person long on the internet to discover that most of the religious world really does not want to be (or act) like G-d.

The Traveler

[Ray]

I wouldn't hold your breath on a commentary of the commentary.

Heh, Christos, my brother, if you don’t recall or realize it, I was simply trying to let you know that there are some of "us" who know some things that you said “nobody” knows.

Or in other words, my commentary was a commentary on your commentary stating:

I do not know, nor does anyone else know, who or what will be rewarded, or on what degree. But what we do know is that we shall be rewarded.

Or in other words, you do not seem to be among the “we” who know the things that you don’t seem to know, and while I agree that many of us who are now living as mortals on this Earth don’t seem to know all the heights and depths of those things, there are many of us who do know something about all those things whether you or some other people know them or not.

Or in other words, if you meant or were actually thinking that none of us who now write commentary on this website can now comprehend all the rewards and blessings God has in mind for those who live by Faith in Him, then I’ll be among the first to agree with that thought… but that is not what you actually said.

And btw, I didn’t say those “who read commentary on this website” because I believe many of us who are now Gods are reading our words.

AND:

I use the word “we” and "us" to refer to all of us who are children of our Father in heaven.

I use the word “know” to refer to having true knowledge, whether all or only in part.

And I use the word “Faith” to refer to an assurance from God… which is the only true way to know anything.

Sin has nothing to do with glory.

Sorry. I thought you were using the idea of “Hell” to refer to anyplace we might live without God…. which could be interpreted to mean that the limited amount of glory we might each have in our “Heaven” is to those who are God as “Hell”.

And btw, I’m not just playing some word games with you, people.

I believe “words” and “semantics” are very important.

[Christos]

I still believe that the rewards of Heaven is a mystery.

Much of Christianity is a mystery, and every so often another mystery revealed.

[Ray]

Okay. I understand you now.

And I still believe some of us know something about all the things some of us do and will know about everything there is to know about. :)

[Traveler]

I still believe that the rewards of Heaven is a mystery.

Much of Christianity is a mystery, and every so often another mystery revealed.

Just a note here - I do not believe that G-d plays games of bait and switch - ignorance and deception is Satan's game, not G-d's. If the rewards of heaven are mystery then there is no way we can choose or desire heaven. In order that a real choice be made one must be able to understand the difference between the possibilities. If not, there is no choice therefore selecting heaven would be a guess not a choice. Jesus said, "If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Christianity is only a mystery to those that are not loyal - which is in essence the same thing Isaiah told king Ahaz.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Point 1: Hell is a very exclusive place for sinners only. ... sin is REQUIRED for anyone and everyone in hell.

There is none righteous, no not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So, hell is available to everyone. (see Romans 3)

Point 2: The Messiah – Jesus Christ has already interceded for everybody’s sins. He has paid the debt in full, 100% and there is nothing left to be paid. Nothing!!!

True. The Way to the Father is through Jesus. (John 14:6). However, Jesus will not force himself on anyone. Those who reject the love of Christ have Romans 6:23 to fall back upon (the wages of sin is death).

Anyone (including G-d) that believes or seeks punishment for their own sins or for anyone else to be punished for sins does so unjustly and outside of justice because that price has already been paid. Again regardless of what anyone thinks, believes or interprets scripture (or anything else) to mean, the simple truth as I understand it is that to believe it is necessary to punish anyone for any sin is to not believe in Christ and his atonement. Satan does not believe in the atonement and believes that he and everybody that has sinned must suffer for sins and reap the full effects of sin and if necessary he can prove his points from scripture. This is contrary to justice and truth and is sick and wrong. It is a lie – but you may believe punishment for sin is necessary if you wish, you can blame this belief on scripture if you wish. I do not wish to be associated in any way to such false thinking. Because of the atonement of Christ punishment for sin is not necessary.

You come so close to the universalist heresy here. It says "You cannot out-sin the love of God, so everyone will be saved--even Hitler." They deny the need to "accept Christ" or repent at all. Traveler, I know you do not totally embrace this line, but you must see how closely your remarks resemble it?

Point 3: G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ are not hypocrites. ...This is the teaching, “To do good to them that curse you”.

Why do this? So that you might lead them away from their wicked ways, and into the embrace of God. To turn this teaching into a universal pass out of hell--even for those who died in their sins, unrepentent, is to read into the text something that is not there.

To visualize the divine as beings that delight in casting (forcing) such soles into hell for punishment is not a vision I share – nor do I want to share it.

Do not misunderstand--nothing I've posted, nor any of the sermons or teachings I've sat under or offered did any such thing. God's heart is broken over a rebellious creation. There's no joy associated with hell on anyone's part.

I personally believe the only way for someone to get to hell and be punished is to reject G-d and justice and desire and want hell instead. They must choose it - Hell is a choice plain and simple.

We're near agreement here. I would further argue, though, that to NOT ACCEPT God is to reject him and embrace hell, and that such a choice can be very passive in nature.

Point 4: Jesus has power greater than hell and he has power over hell. Regardless of the hold that hell has on anyone, Jesus can and will deliver them whenever they will let him.

I think the point where we disagree is death. It is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgement.

[Traveler]

One of the great problems in religious discussion is shifting meanings or shifting semantics from one discussion to another. Some time ago I posted 5 principles that define divine intervention and help. Let us again review the first two principles for this application.

1. G-d will not do for man what man can do for himself.

2. G-d will do for man what man cannot do for himself.

I see hell as that state in which man can and does exist where they, by their choice, desire, and action refuse to do those things that are campatable with and will help then to learn, understand, develop, accept and master the things of G-d. Because of his goodness, G-d commands, offers, suggests and even hints to man of things that man can do. I personally see no difference between a command and hint from G-d though others may think they can find profit from such shifting semantics and pretend some of G-d’s suggestions are not important.

When G-d has provided such direction; for someone to say or accept the teaching of someone saying that certain of G-d’s directions are not necessary, required or needful – I see such things as a rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Jesus Christ. I think it a lie to pretend that one can reject G-d word on one hand and accept him with another.

One does not need a crystal ball to know what in truth is in someone’s heart. Jesus said, “For as a man thinketh in his heart so is he”. To every man G-d gives divine instruction as to things man can do that are good. The spirit speaks these things to all men in all lands and in all times. To some a greater portion is given. “To know to do good and do it not is sin”. And to refuse that good which is given by the spirit is the sure rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Christ as is possible. Therefore it is possible to reject Jesus having never heard of his person or Biblical teachings. It is also possible to reject him by declaring him by name or by doctrine while rejecting that portion given in ones particular place or time. “With our mouths honor him but removing our hearts far from him.”

To complete this post I will add one other thought. Sin is addictive. Some may think that because of the misery and pain (or even eternal punishment – which does not appear to be to be understood) of sin that people would quit sin just to be over and rid of it. Not true. Just like every other addiction there are major issues in just quitting. Because of this, many soles in hell or on their way come to think that the misery of sin is more enjoyable than the pain of withdrawal and turning from sin, thinking because of the atonement they should not struggle and since they struggle that the atonement is not real. Or they think they have sinned so badly or so often that the atonement no longer can work for them. The promise is that “We are saved by grace after all we can do.” Anyone can turn at any time – but the more addicted they become to sin the more difficult the withdrawal and the more they convince themselves to love sin – so they reject Jesus and his atonement by not doing the things taught by the spirit as good.

No one needs be concerned over punishment. Because of the atonement punishment is not the issue. There is no need to look to those that have trespassed against us for payment or relief. In time we will all learn of and understand the atonement of Christ and receive divine relief of sin and the wages of sin – for which all will praise and thank Jesus (no exceptions). Even our own sins are thankfully remitted and payment is not necessary – EVER!!! But thanking and praising Jesus does not mean we have accepted Jesus and the atonement. We must all choose willing, to accept Jesus and his direction (which will break the addiction of sin and is the only way to do so) which means that we accept Jesus by doing “All we can do” as directed by the spirit and then by grace we are delivered from hell.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I personally see no difference between a command and hint from G-d though others may think they can find profit from such shifting semantics and pretend some of G-d’s suggestions are not important.

This is probably an important and relevent point. Could you elaborate and let us in on what surrounds this thought? Perhaps some examples? I'm not making the connection to the conversation about hell, so perhaps you can fill in the gap in my thinking here.

When G-d has provided such direction; for someone to say or accept the teaching of someone saying that certain of G-d’s directions are not necessary, required or needful – I see such things as a rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Jesus Christ. I think it a lie to pretend that one can reject G-d word on one hand and accept him with another.

You clearly have something in mind here. Please, once again, elaborate? For example, does the WoW fit in here (particular for non-LDS believers in Christ)?

One does not need a crystal ball to know what in truth is in someone’s heart. Jesus said, “For as a man thinketh in his heart so is he”. To every man G-d gives divine instruction as to things man can do that are good. The spirit speaks these things to all men in all lands and in all times. To some a greater portion is given. “To know to do good and do it not is sin”. And to refuse that good which is given by the spirit is the sure rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Christ as is possible. Therefore it is possible to reject Jesus having never heard of his person or Biblical teachings. It is also possible to reject him by declaring him by name or by doctrine while rejecting that portion given in ones particular place or time. “With our mouths honor him but removing our hearts far from him.”

It is certainly true that many who knew how to talk the talk, but never to walk the walk, will be found out on the day of judgement, when Christ tells them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." I find it ironic that in this post you are warning that it is easier to reject Christ than we think, when previously you seemed to resist the notion of a painful hell that is a place of punishment.

To complete this post I will add one other thought. Sin is addictive. Some may think that because of the misery and pain (or even eternal punishment – which does not appear to be to be understood) of sin that people would quit sin just to be over and rid of it. Not true. Just like every other addiction there are major issues in just quitting. Because of this, many soles in hell or on their way come to think that the misery of sin is more enjoyable than the pain of withdrawal and turning from sin, thinking because of the atonement they should not struggle and since they struggle that the atonement is not real. Or they think they have sinned so badly or so often that the atonement no longer can work for them. The promise is that “We are saved by grace after all we can do.” Anyone can turn at any time – but the more addicted they become to sin the more difficult the withdrawal and the more they convince themselves to love sin – so they reject Jesus and his atonement by not doing the things taught by the spirit as good.

The talk of sin as addiction is so real to me, as a prison chaplain. I see it so often. We even have a volunteer group that comes in, offering a "Christians in Recovery" program.

http://www.skybreeze.com/srf/index.htm

No one needs be concerned over punishment. Because of the atonement punishment is not the issue. There is no need to look to those that have trespassed against us for payment or relief. In time we will all learn of and understand the atonement of Christ and receive divine relief of sin and the wages of sin – for which all will praise and thank Jesus (no exceptions). Even our own sins are thankfully remitted and payment is not necessary – EVER!!! But thanking and praising Jesus does not mean we have accepted Jesus and the atonement. We must all choose willing, to accept Jesus and his direction (which will break the addiction of sin and is the only way to do so) which means that we accept Jesus by doing “All we can do” as directed by the spirit and then by grace we are delivered from hell.

Traveler, do you reject the teaching that hell is a place of eternal punishment?

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

I personally see no difference between a command and hint from G-d though others may think they can find profit from such shifting semantics and pretend some of G-d’s suggestions are not important.

This is probably an important and relevent point. Could you elaborate and let us in on what surrounds this thought? Perhaps some examples? I'm not making the connection to the conversation about hell, so perhaps you can fill in the gap in my thinking here.

When G-d has provided such direction; for someone to say or accept the teaching of someone saying that certain of G-d’s directions are not necessary, required or needful – I see such things as a rejection of G-d the Father and the atonement of Jesus Christ. I think it a lie to pretend that one can reject G-d word on one hand and accept him with another.

You clearly have something in mind here. Please, once again, elaborate? For example, does the WoW fit in here (particular for non-LDS believers in Christ)?

I will try to answer two questions: First concerning things taught by the spirit concerning Christ to all man. In my travels one concept I find that has been given to almost all societies by the holy spirit, is that innocent children are to be protected and nourished and that this is best done where the male father and female mother are willing to make sacrificers of their personal wants and needs for the benefit of children. It is my understanding that the abuse of children is a rejection of Christ. Those that claim to have accepted Christ (goodness and enlightenment) on one hand and abuse children - in my mind have rejected Christ (goodness and enlightenment) for something they desire more.

Traveler, do you reject the teaching that hell is a place of eternal punishment?

This second question concerns the concept of eternal as applied to punishment in hell. One of the possible meanings associated with the extent of the term or concept of eternal, implies no creation or initialization, meaning forever without beginning or end. It appears to me that those that ignore the “without beginning” concerning G-d’s eternal punishment are like the ugly stepsister sticking a foot in the glass slipper and gleefully proclaiming a fit. Not only do I disagree with this as the concept, I disagree with the effort to make it fit. I believe Jesus has power over hell and anyone that turns to him can find deliverance - his atonement is sufficient. I could make a thousand more points concerning this but if someone is backing the ugly stepsister they will think they see a fit regardless of good news as I see it (where I think the slipper does fit and is beautiful - no need to shy away because of potential ugliness).

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I will try to answer two questions: First concerning things taught by the spirit concerning Christ to all man. In my travels one concept I find that has been given to almost all societies by the holy spirit, is that innocent children are to be protected and nourished and that this is best done where the male father and female mother are willing to make sacrificers of their personal wants and needs for the benefit of children. It is my understanding that the abuse of children is a rejection of Christ. Those that claim to have accepted Christ (goodness and enlightenment) on one hand and abuse children - in my mind have rejected Christ (goodness and enlightenment) for something they desire more.

AMEN!

I ASKED: Traveler, do you reject the teaching that hell is a place of eternal punishment?

This second question concerns the concept of eternal as applied to punishment in hell. One of the possible meanings associated with the extent of the term or concept of eternal, implies no creation or initialization, meaning forever without beginning or end. It appears to me that those that ignore the “without beginning” concerning G-d’s eternal punishment are like the ugly stepsister sticking a foot in the glass slipper and gleefully proclaiming a fit. Not only do I disagree with this as the concept, I disagree with the effort to make it fit. I believe Jesus has power over hell and anyone that turns to him can find deliverance - his atonement is sufficient. I could make a thousand more points concerning this but if someone is backing the ugly stepsister they will think they see a fit regardless of good news as I see it (where I think the slipper does fit and is beautiful - no need to shy away because of potential ugliness).

The fault here is in my wording. Yes, preachers often speak of hell as a place of eternal punishment. Perhaps it would be more accurate to do as the Bible does, and speak of the punishment of hell as that which goes on forever and ever, "where the worm dieth not." So, my revised question would be "Do you believe there is such a thing as a "Get out of Hell" card? You seem to imply that you do--that hell is a place people can willfully depart from. Yes?

[Traveler]

The fault here is in my wording. Yes, preachers often speak of hell as a place of eternal punishment. Perhaps it would be more accurate to do as the Bible does, and speak of the punishment of hell as that which goes on forever and ever, "where the worm dieth not." So, my revised question would be "Do you believe there is such a thing as a "Get out of Hell" card? You seem to imply that you do--that hell is a place people can willfully depart from. Yes?

Yes - the "Get out of Hell" card in my deck is called the atonement of Christ. That card trumps everything when played. It is my belief that that card is in everybodies deck, however, it appears that some, for whatever reason, won't play it.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Yes - the "Get out of Hell" card in my deck is called the atonement of Christ. That card trumps everything when played. It is my belief that that card is in everybodies deck, however, it appears that some, for whatever reason, won't play it.

My argument is that the card expires at death. In particular, once the Judgement is executed, those souls will have no further opportunity to repent. My sense is that you believe a condemned, unrepentent sinner may choose to repent at any time, even long the goat have been separated from the sheep. Do I understand you correctly?

[Traveler]

My argument is that the card expires at death. In particular, once the Judgement is executed, those souls will have no further opportunity to repent.

Why - What about the love, compassion, willingness to forgive and grace of G-d (anything in his naturey) has convinced you of this?

The Traveler

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

My argument is that the card expires at death. In particular, once the Judgement is executed, those souls will have no further opportunity to repent.

Why - What about the love, compassion, willingness to forgive and grace of G-d (anything in his nature) has convinced you of this?

The Traveler

3 points to make here:

1) Whoever or whatever has convinced anyone of this idea, I think it’s important to state that this is not the true doctrine of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, no matter how much anyone believes it. And yes, anyone can believe what they want to believe no matter who speaks for or against them.

2) This idea is influenced partly from something one of the prophets who wrote the Bible said concerning the truth that how after death comes judgment, and it is also influenced partly by another statement from a prophet who said something about the truth that how after death no labor can be performed.

3) We [LDS] now know there will be some time between our death and the day of our “final” judgment, before this world comes to an end, and while it is true that we will not be able to do any of our own work that should be done in this world after the day of our mortal death, that doesn’t mean other people can’t do some work for some of us who don’t know they need to get it done, or that some of us won’t accept some of that work done in the behalf of others of us either before the day of “final” judgment or after this world has come to an end.