Why Does Hell Have To Be Eternal?

[prisonchaplain]

Why - What about the love, compassion, willingness to forgive and grace of G-d (anything in his naturey) has convinced you of this?

Why? We're back to the original point of this post. As C.S. Lewis said, it's not a question of whether the doctrine is detestable to you, but whether it is true--whether this is what God said. If God does say that after the Judgement, it's done. The results are final, then we must decide to believe God on this, or not.

Heb 9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: KJV

Also, Jesus' recounting of what happened with the Rich Man and Lazarus. The Rich Man dies and goes to a place of torment. He begs Lazarus for a drop of cold water, and is told, no--those in paradise cannot crossover, nor can those in torment do so. No hope is given to the Rich Man. His lot is forever established.

The time to embrace God's love is now. We delude people when we downplay the reality of hell.

[Ray]

I agree that we should not try to make people feel that everything will be okay if they postpone their day of repentance, but those who don’t have the opportunity to hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ and do the work He wants them to do will still have an opportunity to do their work or accept work done on their behalf.

Or to put this in real simple and logical terms for you, Tommy, and everybody else, it’s either going to be one of 5 ways for you and me and everyone else on this Earth, if you or I or anyone else comes to learn anything about the true gospel of Jesus Christ:

1) I’ve now learned enough of the true gospel, so that I now know how to have Faith in Jesus Christ and do what He wants me to do. If I do those things and continue to learn from Him I’ll be on the path to a glorious Me. If I don’t do those things I won’t ever become the greatest person He knows I can be.

2) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it in this life. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be.

3) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it before the day of “final” judgment, before this world has come to an end. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be.

4) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, but I can learn more about it and embrace it after the day of “final” judgment, after this world has come to an end. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person He knows that I can be.

5) I haven’t learned enough of the true gospel yet, and I never will learn any better. My fate is now eternally sealed and I can’t ever do anything to change what I do. I won’t ever be able to admit my mistakes and do what I can to repent. I will never be able to become the greatest person that He knows I can be. I’m now eternally stuck without anyone to help me overcome all or even some of my problems. And there never will be a “Savior” because there never was and never will be.

And btw, while I believe I have learned enough about the true gospel of Jesus Christ, I am trying to learn everything there is to know. I believe I can learn more about it and embrace it both now and forever in eternity. If I don’t learn more than I currently know my fate will be eternally sealed. But I can learn to admit my problems and mistakes once He makes them clear to me. And I now know that the day to Repent and become like Him is both now and forever in eternity… because my waiting only delays the greatest person I can become and leaves me with the person I am.

But No! Not me! I can see what I can be! And I never will stop until the person I am is the greatest He knows I can be!

[prisonchaplain]

1) Whoever or whatever has convinced anyone of this idea, I think it’s important to state that this is not the true doctrine of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, no matter how much anyone believes it. And yes, anyone can believe what they want to believe no matter who speaks for or against them.

I've shared with you Jesus' recounting of what happened with the rich man and Lazarus, and the citation from Hebrew about it being appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment. So, can you give me something more than a strong statement of disagreement. Some Scripture verses perhaps?

2) This idea is influenced partly from something one of the prophets who wrote the Bible said concerning the truth that how after death comes judgment, and it is also influenced partly by another statement from a prophet who said something about the truth that how after death no labor can be performed.

If I'm reading this right, it agrees with my contention: Get ready to meet your Maker now, for tomorrow is not guaranteed.

3) We [LDS] now know there will be some time between our death and the day of our “final” judgment, before this world comes to an end, and while it is true that we will not be able to do any of our own work that should be done in this world after the day of our mortal death, that doesn’t mean other people can’t do some work for some of us who don’t know they need to get it done, or that some of us won’t accept some of that work done in the behalf of others of us either before the day of “final” judgment or after this world has come to an end.

Even if you're right, that's some thin ice to be skating on. What if the work is not done on our behalf? What if our hardness of heart passes on to that time between death and the final judgement? Far better to reconcile with God in the here and now.

[Ray]

Far better to reconcile with God in the here and now.

Yes it is, and that is one of our Lord's commandments, but those who haven't had or don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel now will have the chance to hear it later... well enough to be told about Jesus Christ and that they should exercise Faith in Him to know what He wants them to do... and if they don't follow through from that point then their fate is entirely of their own choice and making.

Or in other words, Tommy, this is very important stuff we're talking about here because it affects your eternal welfare, and you should be seriously asking God whether any of this is true instead of relying on us and your reasoning... and if you don't do that in all the sincerity of your heart you won't receive what you could have received, because God can always hear you and assure you of the truth.

So, when you decide to get really serious about all this, and I think you should be NOW, you should listen to His prophets and apostles and ask Him what He thinks about all that... instead of relying on us to tell you what they say or have said while thinking your bases are covered.

... and as I hinted at before, if you're seriously intent on cheating yourself by not talking to some active missionaries in your area, then at least study the writings of prophets and apostles instead of what we tell you here.

p.s. I'll now tell you something else to help you, which you still won't know to be true, unless you ask our God to guide you in the way to know the truth.

When our Lord died he bridged the gulf between the wicked and righteous dead by preaching the gospel to the wicked dead, or actually by appointing servants who would preach the gospel to them. And until that time, you're right, Abraham couldn't cross that gulf, but through the Atonement the captives were delivered who had no other way to cross... and as we are told in other revelations, those who reject the gospel (and the ordinances thereof) in this world will not receive the greatest blessings even if they receive the gospel there... because they could have learned the truth in this world if they had simply learned from God.

... and if you want to hear more than this I suggest you do a Search on lds.org for the key words "spirit prison"... instead of asking or expecting us to do any of your Searching for you... not that I mind trying to help you, but it's really not the best way for you.

[Traveler]

Early on I stated my opinion that many of the common perceptions being advanced about hell are in conflict with my understanding of G-d the Father and G-d the Son (Jesus Christ). If someone is to make a list of why they worship G-d and love him on one hand and then make a list of why G-d condemns those that die in their sins to a “never ending” hell of anguish and torment – I challenge you to honestly find even a single common entry in both lists. I am convinced that those that believe the common perceptions of hell also think they are excluded. In all my life I have never talked with one person that believes they will be abandon by G-d in a never ending hell (this is odd because the general perception of the good folks is that most of the world is going to hell in a hand basket). Is there anyone that personally knows somebody well enough to pronounce them as a “no miss” candidate?

Most common spoken of as the candidates for hell are those that deny or betray the Christ. It is interesting to me that on his last night before his great sacrifice, Jesus turned to his disciples and proclaimed one would betray him. Each asked in return “L-rd is it I?” They were not sure if they were candidates for never ending hell? Later that same night Jesus turned to one of his most ardent followers and said that before the morning came he would deny the Christ 3 times. Lucky for Peter he did not die shortly after his denial of Christ? The point I am trying to make is that if everyone that deserved hell were sent to hell – that is where everybody would end up. And at the same time, those of us that think there is no possibility that they will be there, proudly boast that only the truly deserving will end up in hell (as though they do not truly deserve hell – because???). Am I the only one that sees this irony?

Can a sole be saved from hell? I have asked this question, I do not know how many times and gotten no real answer. Can a sole in hell that really wants deliverance be saved? The answer I get is the Rich Man and Lazarus. Interesting answer because, what was the Rich Man’s sin? – why did he deserve to be in hell? It was not that he did not go to church and it was not the he did not profess a belief in the true and living G-d (which everybody that thinks they do not deserve hell, also thinks their belief in G-d will get them out of it). Are we all is some way not like this Rich Man? Again – what irony?

I am not here to convince anyone of anything – I believe you can believe what-ever you want. You may think that my opinion of hell makes it palatable. To be honest I do not think hell is such a bad place – compared to what we currently have. In fact, I am not sure that everybody will be able to tell a difference (Again – what irony?) I really believe that hell is not so bad, except what you have to give up to buy into hell. Perhaps I should state this a different way. It is what you have to give up to get out of hell. It is that you have to give up all your sins – forever to get out of hell. I think when most people are faced with that choice that there will be a couple of favorite sins they favor over G-d’s saving grace. Did I say that – I was speaking of myself as well my friends.

I asked why G-d might not save a sole in hell – NO ANSWER. Is it because G-d does not have the power? Is it because G-d does not want to? The answer for me to the two questions is both “Yes and Yes” and “No and No”. No unclean can be with G-d. Not even a tiny little bitty unclean thing (that is what sin is – a unclean thing and sometimes it is just a little bitty unclean thing. How many times have I heard, “I do not think G-d will send me to hell for some little bitty sin”. Adam and Eve were cast out because they became unclean as we are all unclean and deserving of hell. The ticket out of hell? Two things: First is the atonement of Jesus Christ - that paid for the ticket (this part is all done with and paid for – for everybody). Second: Give up all your sins forever. If someone has another answer – I would sure like to hear it.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Just for clarification... are you saying that you beleive the people who will end up in the Terestrial and Telestial kingdoms will go there only because they would still be refusing to give up one or more of their sins... even though some scriptures state that those who will be sent to the Telestial kingdom will have paid the price for all of their sins?

And btw, it would also help if you clarified exactly where you think Hell is.

Or in other words, are you referring only to what we [LDS] refer to as outer darkness as Hell?

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, Tommy, this is very important stuff we're talking about here because it affects your eternal welfare, and you should be seriously asking God whether any of this is true instead of relying on us and your reasoning... and if you don't do that in all the sincerity of your heart you won't receive what you could have received, because God can always hear you and assure you of the truth.

Ray, are you so certain I don't seek God's faith about all spiritual discussions I engage in? The "Rev" or "Chaplain" that goes before my name means nothing to God--except perhaps that I will be judged by a more stringent example. Every time I hear a teaching, a sermon, a homily, a "word from the LORD," or, yes, engage in interfaith discussions, I'm seeking God's truths, his voice, his direction, his Way. So, certainly keep sharing, by be assured that I've heeded the admonition to hear from God all along.

So, when you decide to get really serious about all this,

I'm frankly disappointed to see you make this assessment. Ray, even if all you say is true, you're going to have to trust God to work with me on it.

and I think you should be NOW, you should listen to His prophets and apostles and ask Him what He thinks about all that... instead of relying on us to tell you what they say or have said while thinking your bases are covered.

Ray, I think you're making some assumptions about my spiritual journey that are not based on a sound discerning of spirits.

... and as I hinted at before, if you're seriously intent on cheating yourself by not talking to some active missionaries in your area, then at least study the writings of prophets and apostles instead of what we tell you here.

If you change that one little word INSTEAD to IN ADDITION, or perhaps even, FIRST AND FOREMOST, then I'd say you are offering classic and sound wisdom.

When our Lord died he bridged the gulf between the wicked and righteous dead by preaching the gospel to the wicked dead, or actually by appointing servants who would preach the gospel to them. And until that time, you're right, Abraham couldn't cross that gulf, but through the Atonement the captives were delivered who had no other way to cross... and as we are told in other revelations, those who reject the gospel (and the ordinances thereof) in this world will not receive the greatest blessings even if they receive the gospel there... because they could have learned the truth in this world if they had simply learned from God.

Are you saying that the Celestial Kingdom is out of the question for those who do not embrace the restored gospel in their earthly lifetimes?

[Traveler]

Just for clarification... are you saying that you beleive the people who will end up in the Terestrial and Telestial kingdoms will go there only because they would still be refusing to give up one or more of their sins... even though some scriptures state that those who will be sent to the Telestial kingdom will have paid the price for all of their sins?

And btw, it would also help if you clarified exactly where you think Hell is.

Or in other words, are you referring only to what we [LDS] refer to as outer darkness as Hell?

Ray: You are accurate on many accounts in this thread - I have not attempted to add much to your thoughts. You ask a valid question - Hell really has not been defined - so I will take a stab at it. Hell is that state of mind and spirit to which the soles of the damned are bound. It is a prison where a sole has boundries and limitations because they have not "continued" in his (Jesus') word and therefore are not free. The only beings I know for sure are free are G-d the Father, G-d the Son and G-d the Holy Ghost. There may be other but not that I know of. The rest of us are in a state of hell in one form or another.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Thank you for your time, Traveler, and I’m glad we agree, which is why I said the Telestial and Terrestials kingdoms could also be considered the kingdoms of Hell… at least to those who want total freedom.

And regarding the idea of being able to go on to higher kingdoms, I recommend reading and thinking about what Joseph Fielding Smith said in his book called “Doctrines of Salvation”… and there is no better time to do that than the present. :)

[Ray]

prisonchaplain,

I’m going to try to respond to your response with some quick and simple statements, hopefully in an order which will help you to see my point, and viewpoint, instead of quoting the words we’ve already shared and could continue to share forever.

#1: The only way to truly know a truth is to receive an assurance from God, and without God and the assurance He will give us no amount of reading or hearing or talking or seeing can truly assure us of anything.

(And in case you don’t know it, some of us choose to simply accept an assurance from people other than God … but those of us who do that are not accepting that assurance from God…and that also includes accepting an assurance from people who wrote the Bible, who claim to be speaking for God, as well as those from other people who write or say what they say… while claiming to speak for God.)

#2: If you really want to receive God’s assurance you should learn from God and those who claim to speak for Him, and you should always check with God about what anyone but God has to say.

(And as far as I know, there is nobody here at LDStalk who is claiming to speak for God, although some of us here are very sure He has assured us of some truths.)

#3: The fact that you are still here at LDStalk shows that you either don’t know the truth or don’t know how you can know it, or that you think some of us are speaking the truth and can teach others about how to know it … so once you accept my statements above, and know those statements are true, you’ll hopefully get serious about learning the truth and learning those truths from God… when your only desire will be to learn from God and do the things He says to do while teaching some others about how to know Him so they can do that too.

Make sense now?

Or in other words:

Do you really want to learn from us and accept the things we tell you?

Or...

do you really want us to learn from you and accept the things you tell us?

If so, why?

Or what real good would any of that do for those who know we should all be learning from God?

You're simply spinning your wheels if you keep going the way you're going.

And btw, the answer to your last question is, No, but for YOU, Tommy, the answer is a definite, Yes.

Or in other words, generally, if someone doesn’t accept the truth of the restored gospel and all the ordinances thereof here during their mortal life, simply because they never had the opportunity, then they will receive an opportunity in the spirit world to hear and accept it there… and all the ordinances will be done for them here just in case they accept them there.

But in YOUR case, Tommy, since you have now heard the true gospel and are aware of at least some of the ordinances you need, the Celestial kingdom will be out of the question if you do not accept it all right here, so stop talking to us and listening to us and call those missionaries NOW… or PM one of us and give us your address and we’ll have them sent to you.

Heh, and Yes, I am speaking as someone who is sure of these truths and is sure of how to know them.

And that's it. Thanks for listening. I hope you will enjoy your weekend. :)

[prisonchaplain]

#1: The only way to truly know a truth is to receive an assurance from God, and without God and the assurance He will give us no amount of reading or hearing or talking or seeing can truly assure us of anything.

Often the hearing, talking, or seeing can lead us to the place of asking God for that assurance. Ultimately, you are right--God will reveal himself to whoever seeks him with a sincere heart. Sometimes I sense that you try to hurry people along, rather than allow them to approach God as He prepares them to.

(And in case you don’t know it, some of us choose to simply accept an assurance from people other than God … but those of us who do that are not accepting that assurance from God…and that also includes accepting an assurance from people who wrote the Bible, who claim to be speaking for God, as well as those from other people who write or say what they say… while claiming to speak for God.)

It seems to me that the Old Testament prophets were judged by what they said, not some spiritual enlightment from God. If there words were true, they could be accepted. If not, they could be executed. There wasn't much that was mystical about it. Following God himself could involve such supernatural experiences--but not the prophets. To obey them was to obey God--if they spoke His words.

#2: If you really want to receive God’s assurance you should learn from God and those who claim to speak for Him, and you should always check with God about what anyone but God has to say.[/b

(And as far as I know, there is nobody here at LDStalk who is claiming to speak for God, although some of us here are very sure He has assured us of some truths.)]

I'm in this place to learn and share. I've done both, and have assurance that God is pleased.

#3: The fact that you are still here at LDStalk shows that ...

Sorry to cut you off...but I know why I am here. See my response to #2.

You're simply spinning your wheels if you keep going the way you're going.

I have an assurance from God that He is pleased with my learning and sharing here. So, try to avoid the occasional dirt and rocks that shoot out as my wheels keep spinning.

And btw, the answer to your last question is, No, but for YOU, Tommy, the answer is a definite, Yes.

Or in other words, generally, if someone doesn’t accept the truth of the restored gospel and all the ordinances thereof here during their mortal life, simply because they never had the opportunity, then they will receive an opportunity in the spirit world to hear and accept it there… and all the ordinances will be done for them here just in case they accept them there.

To summarize what you've said in various posts: Since the Heavenly Father is not present in the lower kingdoms, the Terrestial and Telestial heavens could be considered hell (not biblically, but by comparison, perhaps). Anyone who has heard the LDS gospel and not embraced it, will have no further opportunities. In a sense, they really do face "Heaven (Celestial), or hell (paradise minus the Father)."

Many evangelicals would propose an even more stark destination to you. I've discusses the whole issue of salvation and doctrine with SNOW quite a bit. Ultimately, and I suppose we'd agree on this, God-seekers would do well to embrace the truth of God, in it's most accurate and purest form, from those sources that most directly and rightly reflect God's words for us. We have hope for one another, and trust one anothers integrity, so we meet at places like this and dialogue. The Holy Spirit will rightly lead those with open hearts, while others will fall by the wayside or dig their heels in.

But in YOUR case, Tommy, since you have now heard the true gospel and are aware of at least some of the ordinances you need, the Celestial kingdom will be out of the question if you do not accept it all right here, so stop talking to us and listening to us and call those missionaries NOW… or PM one of us and give us your address and we’ll have them sent to you.

And I suppose I could just tell you to phone home. We both know how to find live representatives of each other's faith groups, Ray--and God will show us if/when we need to contact them.

You be blessed, Ray! :)

[Ray]

We both know how to find live representatives of each other's faith groups, Ray--and God will show us if/when we need to contact them.

Heh, I give up.

What more can I say to you?

I know the truth and I know that I know it, but I can do nothing to assure you I do.

And Yes you too will be blessed by all you can do as you rely on Him. :)

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Amen?

[Ray]

Amen to the fact that I can say nothing to help you to see the truth as I do, but I haven't lost even a bit of my faith in what He's assured me is true.

And yes, I know, you will say the same thing too.

So now what? What's next? Where do we go from here?

If we both keep believing the things we believe we will not both know the truth.

p.s. If you didn't notice, I just disagreed with your thought here...

...whoever amongst us that is right will do well by sharing sound words to those with receptive ears.

...if you meant we can help them to see the truth, or maybe while that works for those who are receptive, it seems to do nothing for those who are not.

And now to respond to some other comments you made, which I hope will somehow help you:

Often the hearing, talking, or seeing can lead us to the place of asking God for that assurance. Ultimately, you are right--God will reveal himself to whoever seeks him with a sincere heart. Sometimes I sense that you try to hurry people along, rather than allow them to approach God as He prepares them to.

I believe God is ALWAYS prepared to give us His answer, if we will simply and sincerely seek Him... and I don't believe it is God who is delaying people or making people wait.

I have an assurance from God that He is pleased with my learning and sharing here. So, try to avoid the occasional dirt and rocks that shoot out as my wheels keep spinning.

I try, but be careful. God is not pleased with those who teach false doctrine.

Ultimately, and I suppose we'd agree on this, God-seekers would do well to embrace the truth of God, in it's most accurate and purest form, from those sources that most directly and rightly reflect God's words for us. We have hope for one another, and trust one anothers integrity, so we meet at places like this and dialogue. The Holy Spirit will rightly lead those with open hearts, while others will fall by the wayside or dig their heels in.

Yes, we agree on that thought, but we do not agree on God’s word, because you seem to totally reject any of His words which are not written in the Bible... and we also have different interpretations about the words which actually were.

We both know how to find live representatives of each other's faith groups, Ray--and God will show us if/when we need to contact them.

When do you think He’ll do that, or why isn’t He doing that NOW? Or why don't we need to ALWAYS ask Him to assure us of the truth?

[prisonchaplain]

So now what? What's next? Where do we go from here?

We continue to share and learn. At some point in our lives you or I will get it. The constant knocking of the Holy Spirit will finally be heard. Or...one of us will harden his heart, and receive his due on that great and terrible day.

If we both keep believing the things we believe we will not both know the truth.

Then either I will be consigned to the Terrestial Kingdom, or you will have to answer for your many errors.

...if you meant we can help them to see the truth, or maybe while that works for those who are receptive, it seems to do nothing for those who are not.

I'm responsible for what I do with the message, not how others respond.

I believe God is ALWAYS prepared to give us His answer, if we will simply and sincerely seek Him... and I don't believe it is God who is delaying people or making people wait.

God works with me, allowing me to be an agent of his truth and the wooing of his Spirit. My work is to present and explain. It's the Holy Spirit's work to convict, and the respondent's place to welcome or reject or ponder.

I try, but be careful. God is not pleased with those who teach false doctrine.

That's why Christian believers need to get beyond saying, "Why get so uptight about a few disagreements on doctrine. There's no doctrine test for getting into heaven." I want to know God, his Word, and to proclaim his truths fully, passionately, and accurately.

Yes, we agree on that thought, but we do not agree on God’s word, because you seem to totally reject any of His words which are not written in the Bible... and we also have different interpretations about the words which actually were.

Which is why Profs. Robinson and Blomberg (BYU & Denver Seminary, respectively) agree that LDS and evangelicals will not be able to share communion, or teaching platforms, and that our missionaries/evangelists/members will continue to proslytize one another. Your repeated question, "What now?" was responded to by them with: let us raise the level of our dialogue, and speak to one another with respect and intelligence, and avoid the hostility and caracatures that marked so many past exchanges. I say AMEN to that.

When do you think He’ll do that, or why isn’t He doing that NOW? Or why don't we need to ALWAYS ask Him to assure us of the truth?

I suppose one of us will let the other know when we hear what HE's been shouting to us all along.

[Christos]

<div class='quotemain'>

Amen?

That is beautiful!

Lord, I lay my life at your feet. I give up. I can go no further. I give myself to you. I only lead myself into evil. I'm not a reliable servant for I have rejected you many times and served other masters.

My life is not worth living any longer.

Lord, come.

Save me, a sinner.

Amen.

[Traveler]

We can shout all we want that we are right, and others wrong, but, those with confidence will speak simply, with calm assurance, and allow the Almighty to woo those "who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

We can shout all we want that we are right, and others wrong, but, those with confidence will speak simply, with calm assurance, and allow the Almighty to woo those "who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

If I can get the time I would like to start a thread on this subject. Not that I really disagree with what PC tells us here – but I think he has missed the most important point. In a number of posts I have referenced the ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms. The scriptures tell us that G-d’s organization, both in heaven and on earth, is a Kingdom. The ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms is the law of Kingdoms understood at the time and place when the scriptures were written and is the context of understanding basic doctrines of Kingdoms from Abraham through Jesus Christ. When someone says that Jesus or G-d is king this is the standard measuring rod that defines what the ancients really meant as “a king”.

In our day and time, most of us live in and understand representative democracy and have no experience at all with kingdom societies – even within our religious organizations that we may erroneously call a kingdom. This is because, in reality, we think of religions and religious societies in terms of the societies to which we are custom and experienced; as in terms of doctrines that “suit” us or that “appeal” to us in democratic societies. With the idea that if we have the spirit of G-d in our heart that the correct doctrines will suit or appeal to us. I believe this is a gross oversimplification of the ancient concept and the reason that many religions and sects of many religions in their sincere diversity would demonstrate this error. I am not saying to believe this makes you wrong – just that many sincere seekers of divine enlightenment somehow find divergent paths to “oneness” with G-d, employing this method, in part because they oversimplify the scriptures and the intended meaning based on what suits them or appeals to them. There is no such diversity among loyal citizens of a kingdom – or the covenant children of G-d.

Within a kingdom there is no room for individual understanding or private interpretation of divine doctrines, laws and ideas in terms of concepts that suit or appeal to specific individuals. There is no “wooing” in the sense that competing servants could espouse their opinions, which the populist was left to choose which wooer is the best orator or demonstrated the most charisma to suit them. We may operate today, based on our opinions or beliefs in our democratic society but in a kingdom, such thinking is treasonous. Though it may sound harsh to us in our society, anciently punishments were considered quite standard and common in dealing with those claiming or pretending to be appointed vassals or servants of the supreme Suzerain but were not appointed or that were appointed but overstepped their appointments (remember that Jesus said he did nothing but that he was commanded by his father). The punishment was the same and applied both to those that taught the law correctly but were not properly appointed by the Suzerain or those appointed by the Suzerain that taught according to their own ideas. Both were considered traders of the Suzerain (a concept lost in modern thinking) If they were not put to death or sometimes prior to being put to death their eyes were burned out (as per Sampson) and those that supported or listened to them – their ears were burned out. Thus the saying, “those that have eyes to see and ears to hear” is in reference not so much to those that understood correct or proper doctrine as much as those that are loyal to the Suzerain and his appointed servant vassals of the kingdom.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

See previous post for Traveler's insightful observations. His bottom-line: A kingdom, unlike a democracy, should be united, uniform, singularly organized, non-diverse, etc., according to The Traveler. Except they weren't and aren't. Look at the Book of Acts to see the struggles between Jewish and Gentile believers. Look at the diversity of problems seen between the church in Ephesus vs. Corinthians, or especially the seven churches of Asia Minor.

We are united in our love for King Jesus, in our reliance on his Word, our proclammation of the faith to those who are lost, and in our love for one another.

There is an excellent saying in this regard: Unity in essentials, Liberty in secondary matters, charity in all.

So what are the essentials, and who gets to say? Here's a breakdown:

1. Roman Catholicism: The Church, relying equally upon Scriptures and Tradition, has authority to make these decisions.

2. Protestantism: There are varying church governance systems, but generally a Pastor and a group of congregation leaders (deacons, elders, board members) will make local decisions, with denominational offices offering varying degrees of consulation or leadership. Regardless of the structure, all would claim to rely on the Scriptures for their decisions.

3. LDS: The Church, led by the Living Prophet and his Apostles, hold the authority, and rely on direct revelation, previous revelations given to modern prophets, and on the Standard Works.

BTW, my discussion about the wooing of the Holy Spirit was in response to Ray's queries about God revealing himself to individuals. Traveler, isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the BoM is true, etc.?

[boyando]

Even if you're right, that's some thin ice to be skating on. What if the work is not done on our behalf? What if our hardness of heart passes on to that time between death and the final judgement? Far better to reconcile with God in the here and now.

The Book of Mormon teaches us that this is the day of our probation. But we also know from the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) that we are not to judge were a person ends up. We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Part of working out our own salvation is to make sure that our brothers are warned and that everyone has a chance to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. If physical bapbtism is required as shown by Jesus being bapbtized and there are so many who have not had the chance to have the bapbtism of John, then I would say that I'm greatfull that there will be opportunity's for those who didn't have a chance to hear or understand the gosple in this life.

I do not claim to know, how many who have passed on, will be babtized with fire in the next life. I do believe that everyone who had a chance to hea the truth and rejects the truth, will be judge by Christ.

Surely the gosple brings joy in this life. That alone is enough reason reconcile with God in the here and now.

[Christos]

In some part of the world, where water is sparse and precious, water baptism isn't possible and so it is performed by the "laying on of hands".

I am glad to see that this battle is starting to end :)

[prisonchaplain]

I am glad to see that this battle is starting to end :)

Battle? What battle?

Christos, you weren't feeling the ?

Maybe we all need a group

[Christos]

[Ray]

...my discussion about the wooing of the Holy Spirit was in response to Ray's queries about God revealing himself to individuals. Traveler, isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the BoM is true, etc.?

Tommy,

Isn't that what you believe happens when an investigator prays as to whether the Bible is true and how those scriptures should be interpreted, etc?

I believe it is only the "wooing of the Holy Spirit" which can assure me (and all of us) of the truth... although some people do seem to be satisfied by the assurances of other "persons'.

[Christos]

Truth, What is Truth?

[Ray]

Btw, to those who have trouble understanding what Traveler was saying, try reading his words again while paying special attention to my highlights.

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We can shout all we want that we are right, and others wrong, but, those with confidence will speak simply, with calm assurance, and allow the Almighty to woo those "who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

We can shout all we want that we are right, and others wrong, but, those with confidence will speak simply, with calm assurance, and allow the Almighty to woo those "who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

If I can get the time I would like to start a thread on this subject. Not that I really disagree with what PC tells us here – but I think he has missed the most important point. In a number of posts I have referenced the ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms. The scriptures tell us that G-d’s organization, both in heaven and on earth, is a Kingdom. The ancient mid Eastern Suzerain – Servant Vassal law and kingdoms is the law of Kingdoms understood at the time and place when the scriptures were written and is the context of understanding basic doctrines of Kingdoms from Abraham through Jesus Christ. When someone says that Jesus or G-d is king this is the standard measuring rod that defines what the ancients really meant as “a king”.

In our day and time, most of us live in and understand representative democracy and have no experience at all with kingdom societies – even within our religious organizations that we may erroneously call a kingdom. This is because, in reality, we think of religions and religious societies in terms of the societies to which we are custom and experienced; as in terms of doctrines that “suit” us or that “appeal” to us in democratic societies. With the idea that if we have the spirit of G-d in our heart the correct doctrines will suit or appeal to us... I believe this is a gross oversimplification of the ancient concept and the reason that many religions and sects of many religions in their sincere diversity would demonstrate this error. I am not saying to believe this makes you wrong – just that many sincere seekers of divine enlightenment somehow find divergent paths to “oneness” with G-d, employing this method, in part because they oversimplify the scriptures and the intended meaning based on what suits them or appeals to them. There is no such diversity among loyal citizens of a kingdom – or the covenant children of G-d.

Within a kingdom there is no room for individual understanding or private interpretation of divine doctrines, laws and ideas in terms of concepts that suit or appeal to specific individuals. There is no “wooing” in the sense that competing servants could espouse their opinions, which the populist was left to choose which wooer is the best orator or demonstrated the most charisma to suit them. We may operate today, based on our opinions or beliefs in our democratic society but in a kingdom, such thinking is treasonous. Though it may sound harsh to us in our society, anciently punishments were considered quite standard and common in dealing with those claiming or pretending to be appointed vassals or servants of the supreme Suzerain but were not appointed or that were appointed but overstepped their appointments... (remember that Jesus said he did nothing but that he was commanded by his father). The punishment was the same and applied both to those that taught the law correctly but were not properly appointed by the Suzerain or those appointed by the Suzerain that taught according to their own ideas. Both were considered traitors (spelling corrected from traders) of the Suzerain (a concept lost in modern thinking) if they were not put to death or sometimes prior to being put to death their eyes were burned out (as per Samson - spelling corrected from Sampson) and those that supported or listened to them – their ears were burned out. Thus the saying, “those that have eyes to see and ears to hear” is in reference not so much to those that understood correct or proper doctrine as much as those that are loyal to the Suzerain and his appointed servant vassals of the kingdom.

The Traveler

And btw, Traveler, I appreciate your post and thoughts, as expressed in your own words. :)