Did Human Spirits Exist Before Creation?

[Traveler]

Two key issues:

1. Entry into the Celestial Kingdom is at least partly dependent on someone post-mortem finding my information, and performing the ceremony. If my name doesn't get found, I'm out of the Celestial Kingdom.

2. Many Christians, myself included, do not agree that their are any ritualistic requirements attached to salvation. Water baptism is a testimony to the salvation I have experienced. The fulfillment of righteousness took place at Calvary. Same goes for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost--it's a gift--one that we Pentecostals believe is subsequent to salvation.

1. See Daniel 12:1 What happens to someone who's name is not found?

2. Did Jesus submit himself to ritualistic requirements? Like baptism (which was necessary for the Jews)??? I disagree that baptism is a testimony to salvation. I believe baptism is for the remission of sins. But since Jesus did not need remission of sins it was to fulfill "all rightiousness".

If there are no ritualistic requirements - why did G-d command rituals? I believe that if G-d even makes a minor suggestion that he has let us know his will and that it is a sin to go against or teach contrary to the will of G-d. It is only necessary to live by every word that comes from G-d if someone intends to enjoy living with G-d.

PC. We have talked about accepting and rejecting Jesus. I believe we must reject Jesus with full knowledge of what we do - the same is true of accepting him. I believe it to be a rejection of Jesus to know what he has done for us (by example) and then to deny that such example is necessary. It is enough for me to know that Jesus was baptized. What manner of men ought we to be? -- Even as "I AM".

I have said all along and I still believe that every person makes choices - not by what they say they believe but what they do according to commitment. It is all a matter of desire. Those that do not desire to do as G-d has directed cannot learn to love to be directed by G-d. My advice is to consider all the advice that comes from G-d as necessary.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I know that God is my Heavenly Father and that I literally am his daughter. He loves me and wants all of his children to return to him. I know that he has given us these bodies to learn and grow and to become more like him. He is our Father. I know this to be true, inside and out. When I have ripped everything else away the simple truthfulness of this Gospel was all that was there. I know it to be true. God loves us. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

This is beautiful in its simplicity. Live testimonies, where we are able to hear more of the heart, and the personal nature of one's spiritual awakening to the reality of God's love are so encouraging and faith-building. I notice to the very personal nature of the poster's relationship to God (note my boldfacing of key phrases).

And yet...I'm reading from others about picking the right church, the right leaders to pray over me, the right people to perform rituals over me, etc. A struggle many "low church" Protestants have with the Catholic Church is that the sacramental system seems to put ceremonies and human leaders as mediators between me and my God. Jesus says he's the only mediator.

My hope is not to persuade or criticize, but to explain why it is that evangelicals in particular run into spiritual culture shock by some of the teachings of the LDS church. Hopefully if we understand each other better we can talk to each other with ever increasing wisdom.

[prisonchaplain]

LDS believe that during the Millenium, temples will dot the earth. With the aid of direct revelation and ministering of angels, every name of every person who didn't have a chance to receive saving ordinances will be compiled. Consequently, there will be a 1,000 year period to perform ordinances for the dead. It will be a "No soul left behind," kinda thing. :)

If I'm reading you correctly, the main advantages to investigating and embracing the LDS gospel is: 1. If it's true, you'd want to embrace God's truth, of course, and 2. You have the privilege of leading others into this truth through rituals (baptisms through the dead), mission work, and of course, raising up gospel families.

Far better to find out now and get it right, of course. However, the dilemma of "What about those who don't know?" is handily solved here.

Bottom-line: Without addressing the basic "is it true?" question, the teaching is nice and neat.

Absolutely the restitution or restoration of the New Testament Covenant (read: Church). At the risk of being a broken record, the two key parts of God's covenant with any dispensation/covenant (new or old) are: (1) authority to speak for God and perform ordinances; (2) correct knowledge of God and ordinances. This is an extreme exercise in "Cliffs Notes-condensing," but I think it suffices.

I think so many who know little of your faith would be surprised to learn that you folk, who look and talk like rather conservative fundamentalist/evangelicals, in many ways are more akin to the Catholic Church, in your views of church offices and the spiritual power of sacraments. I say this as an observation of what I'm learning here, not a criticism. If I'm "off" on this, feel free to explain further.

However, the church organization Christ established during his ministry. apostles/bishops/deacons/elders/seventies etc...) was not man-made, but God-given. I see God's kingdom as one of order, and an organized church as God's way of administering salvation in an orderly and not chaotic manner.

People will argue endlessly about what aspects of the New Testament accounts are merely descriptive, and which are proscriptive. I'll grant you that a reasonable argument could be made for your church structure, while simply saying that the emphasis on offices and the authority of leaders is foreign to my own tradition. Again, there are similarities here to Catholic practice.

Aside from LDS beliefs and revelations (that's cutting away a lot), my reading of the Old and New Testaments leads me to conclude that God always governs, guides and saves His people within a structure of priesthood offices and ordinances.

As a note of explanation, my movement more a less goes with the Baptist teaching of the "priesthood of all believers." Ironically, you do too--though in a more formalized way. Active men hold the priesthood, and active woman usually have callings as well.

[prisonchaplain]

1. See Daniel 12:1 What happens to someone who's name is not found?

(Daniel 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (KJV)

Traveler, if the name's in the book they'll be delivered. If not, a later verse suggests "others to shame and everlasting contempt." (verse 2).

So, what happens to someone who's name is not found. My reading suggests verse 2. Am I misunderstanding you?

2. Did Jesus submit himself to ritualistic requirements? Like baptism (which was necessary for the Jews)??? I disagree that baptism is a testimony to salvation. I believe baptism is for the remission of sins. But since Jesus did not need remission of sins it was to fulfill "all rightiousness".

Jesus observed rituals, but I would not read into that a sacramental view of salvation. Then again, perhaps He did--ultimately and finally. After all, He was the sacrificial Lamb, who died 'once and for all.' Yes, He fulfilled all righteousness. And, it is our embrace of Him--and that fulfillment--that saves us. He fulfilled all rituals. We observe two--baptism, out of obedience to his command, and the Lord's Supper, out of obedience to the apostolic example and Jesus' command "this do in rememberance of me."

If there are no ritualistic requirements - why did G-d command rituals?

Yes, God gave us rituals. But, they are not prerequisites of salvation. Rather, they are part of obedient Christian living.

I believe that if G-d even makes a minor suggestion that he has let us know his will and that it is a sin to go against or teach contrary to the will of G-d. It is only necessary to live by every word that comes from G-d if someone intends to enjoy living with G-d.

I don't disagree. Our point of concern is whether ordinances are done out of obedient Christian living, or as the vehicle of salvation.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I think so many who know little of your faith would be surprised to learn that you folk, who look and talk like rather conservative fundamentalist/evangelicals, in many ways are more akin to the Catholic Church, in your views of church offices and the spiritual power of sacraments.

As far as my belief that authority and ordinances are a part of Christ's church, I do believe it's either the Catholic Church (Roman or Eastern Orthodox) or the LDS Church. Of course I have a testimony of the LDS church's truthfulness. But you're not "off" in seeing similarities between LDS and Catholic emphasis on offices and ordinances.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, that's the same standard God uses with everyone to determine if they really love God and all of His words... not basing where they go by what other people know, but what they know and knew from God.

Ray, your answer to this question may clarify this whole issue of the general apostasy: During the period of the apostasy, from roughly 100 - 1840 AD, was it possible for those who believed in Christ sincerely, based on what knowledge they had, to DIRECTLY gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom (i.e., meaning that they did not have to depend on someone in doing a specific water baptism in their name after the Restoration)?

No, because God made baptism a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of God.

But if there are (or were) some people who don't (or didn't) hear or read that during their mortal life, simply because nobody is telling (or told) them that, either by speaking or writing in a book they can and have read, which would make it easy to understand how and why they are (or were) not prompted to ask God about it, then they will hear (or have heard) about it later, and after accepting that truth they are (or will be) able to accept a baptism which has been done (or will be done) by others who will do that (or have done that) for them.

[boyando]

Warning; My comments are not as kind as our non-LDS friends may deserve.

I feel while I'm reading these threads, that I'm listening to scribes, pharisees and saducees. Each of these groups studied the scriptures, diligently. Each came up with a idea what the true gosple was and how they were suposed to live, to please our Heavenly Father.

Without the Holy Spirit, they could not find the truth in the scriptures. Without humilty, Prayer, Scripture Study and the companionship of His Holy Ghost Iam no better.

I end my comments not because I don't have things to say, but because everything that is popping into my head is not helpfull. If, as you read this, I hope that you don't find yourself angry with me. I wish only the best for everyone I have met on this website.

[Ray]

I feel while I'm reading these threads, that I'm listening to scribes, pharisees and saducees. Each of these groups studied the scriptures, diligently. Each came up with a idea what the true gospel was and how they were suposed to live, to please our Heavenly Father.

Without the Holy Spirit, they could not find the truth in the scriptures. Without humilty, Prayer, Scripture Study and the companionship of His Holy Ghost I am no better.

That's true, allmosthumble. Some of us know the truth, and some of us have been deceived, and there are forces working either for or against us as we are trying to learn the truth.

And btw, I hope that as you are reading these threads you are also hearing from God, as He prompts you to see and know the truth through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[prisonchaplain]

Warning; My comments are not as kind as our non-LDS friends may deserve.

I feel while I'm reading these threads, that I'm listening to scribes, pharisees and saducees. Each of these groups studied the scriptures, diligently. Each came up with a idea what the true gosple was and how they were suposed to live, to please our Heavenly Father.

Without the Holy Spirit, they could not find the truth in the scriptures. Without humilty, Prayer, Scripture Study and the companionship of His Holy Ghost Iam no better.

I end my comments not because I don't have things to say, but because everything that is popping into my head is not helpfull. If, as you read this, I hope that you don't find yourself angry with me. I wish only the best for everyone I have met on this website.

Quite frankly, I see nothing but truth in the content of what you say. I would only suggest that you broaden your audience to include both non-LDS AND LDS.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

Warning; My comments are not as kind as our non-LDS friends may deserve.

I feel while I'm reading these threads, that I'm listening to scribes, pharisees and saducees. Each of these groups studied the scriptures, diligently. Each came up with a idea what the true gosple was and how they were suposed to live, to please our Heavenly Father.

Without the Holy Spirit, they could not find the truth in the scriptures. Without humilty, Prayer, Scripture Study and the companionship of His Holy Ghost Iam no better.

I end my comments not because I don't have things to say, but because everything that is popping into my head is not helpfull. If, as you read this, I hope that you don't find yourself angry with me. I wish only the best for everyone I have met on this website.

Quite frankly, I see nothing but truth in the content of what you say. I would only suggest that you broaden your audience to include both non-LDS AND LDS.

P.C.

Once again I am humbled by your short and derrect responce. As I'v taught sunday school classes over the years, one of my most favorite subjects to develope a descussion on, is how much we need to be diligent to avoid ending up like the children of Isreal. In the years between Moses and Christ they started to worship the law instead of God.

Now we all must ask ourselfs are we worshiping our Father in Heaven or the scriptures that He gave us (and is giving us).

I think Ray has got it right. We must included prayer and personal revelation, along with scripture study in order to draw close to our Father in Heaven.

Thank You P.C.

Thank you Ray

[prisonchaplain]

No, because God made baptism a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of God.

We could argue that point, but it's not necessary for this issue. Rather, let me clarify: What you really mean is that God made baptism by someone with the authority to do so (i.e., someone with the priestly keys--someone with either the original gospel or the restored gospel) a requirement. In other words, those Christians who lived and died from 100 to 1840 or so will have to have a baptism for the dead done on their behalf, and they will have to accept the ceremony, before they can enter the kingdom of heaven. Correct?

[Ray]

Not necessarily, because I don’t know the exact date when members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) no longer had the keys of authority from our Lord. I do know it was sometime after the prophets and apostles, those who held the keys, no longer led the Church, because those who did not have the keys either put them to death or simply voted them out of office, after making their apostate doctrines popular among the members, thus usurping their authority and claiming to have our Lord’s authority when they actually had no authority to do that, but I don’t know exactly when that happened.

But I can tell you this. Even if the members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) still had authority from our Lord until our Lord revoked His authority from among them and gave it to others, with Joseph Smith at the head directly under Jesus Christ through Peter, James & John, the members of the so-called Protestant religions in Christianity don’t have a real leg to stand on… because if the members of the church of Jesus Christ of former-day saints (known by another name) still had and now has authority from our Lord, the Protestants were and are apostates of that church, and if the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints now has authority from our Lord, the Protestants either don’t accept the fact that we ever received authority from our Lord or they are apostates from our church … while claiming to have authority from our Lord just as others did in former days when they actually had and have no authority from our Lord.

Anyway, I’d guess that was the long answer to your question, and the short version to what I think you were mainly asking is Yes, those who wish to enter the kingdom of God must be baptized by those who had or have authority to do that directly from our Lord or the people He has authorized to lead His true church on Earth.

And btw, since this is now my 3600th post on this website, I am officially retiring from this website.

Thank you and pray for the best. :)

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

No, because God made baptism a requirement for entrance into the kingdom of God.

We could argue that point, but it's not necessary for this issue. Rather, let me clarify: What you really mean is that God made baptism by someone with the authority to do so (i.e., someone with the priestly keys--someone with either the original gospel or the restored gospel) a requirement. In other words, those Christians who lived and died from 100 to 1840 or so will have to have a baptism for the dead done on their behalf, and they will have to accept the ceremony, before they can enter the kingdom of heaven. Correct?

Not only the Christins who died in those years, but all who have not had chance to hear the Gosple of Jesus Christ, and who would have accepted it if they had heard the good word. Because it is not up to us to do the Judgeing (ther is only one who stands at the gate) we try to do the work for all man kind, starting with our own family.

This is not a free pass. When the books are opened, everyman will be judge by there works. We baptize the living because it (along with living the rest of the gosple) brings us happieness in this life, not just in the life to come.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

Receantly in a General Conference, one of the apostles(or a seventy) speaking of the founders of the USA and marthin Luther, said such men 'were saved". So there you go. Although God allowed His Church to be mistreated by men, hence the "kingdom of God has been proclaimed but the violent take it away", God saved such persons based on their knowledge at the time, and their probabilities. Surely if Luther indeed had the best intention towards God and received revelation to protest, he could have been saved based on his limmited knowledge. Although the ordinances had to be done, this does not mean that such people did'nt get saved.

But what does it mean that they were saved? Were they consigned to the Terrestial Kingdom, forever to miss out on the presence of the Heavenly Father? And, who were "such men?" Just the heroes, those very few who did extraordinary things to further God's plan.

It was meant to mean exaltation. Of no other sort of "salvation" does people reffer in the Conferences9or general Church in fact) unless he explicitly explains or denotes a difference. Hence, most leaders speak of salvation in th eultimate sense, just as 'salvation" is used by the NT, meaning exaltation.

Ah, and that statement was made by Joseph Smith, whom the gerenal authority was quoting.

And they were not just the heroes, but all christians alike of such circumstances.

[Serg]

Conclusion: If we presuppose the antemortal existence of human spirits, these verses could bolster that belief. However, if without that presupposition, these verses merely point to God’s foreknowledge of human existence, and perhaps even hint at predestination (though I’m not in that particular theological camp).

The problem with your conclusion is that it does not follow th eproper study of such instances in scripture. As in Jeremiah, the word "knew" is not of knowledge, but the same hebrew word described in genesis when "Adam knew his wife" and "begat Cain". It is a word intending intimacy of TWO, not one alone. Indeed one cannot have intimacy with the forknowledge of someone but with the present reaction of such person. If God(as a "defense of yours") could have such intimate relationship of love with us without creating us, then He didnt have to create us "out of his love to share it with us" as most protestants teach. He could have remain sharing His love PERFECTLY with His "premonition" of us. Further more, if we speak in terms of logic, He could not have known us intimately(as to "know"-hebrew) us without creating us, because if he had not recently created us he could not remotely remember or forknow such action. He foreknew that He creted us, as he later did. Not other wise. So this simply works otherwise to our fellow christian brethren, just as "Ever incrising Faith Ministries" in california, and "Fount of Living waters' in Puerto Rico, all both conservative and liberal evangelicals, are praching preexistance!

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...the same hebrew word described in genesis when "Adam knew his wife" and "begat Cain". It is a word intending intimacy of TWO, not one alone.

As a student of Hebrew, I loved this reply. Well done wrapping it all together Serg.

[Maureen]

As a student of Hebrew, I loved this reply. Well done wrapping it all together Serg.

I'm not a student of Hebrew, but I've done some looking and this is what I found:

"Before I formed you in your mother's womb7 I chose you.8Before you were born I set you apart.I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

8 tn Heb "I knew you." The parallelism here with "set you apart" and "appointed you" make clear that Jeremiah is speaking of his foreordination to be a prophet. For this same nuance of the Hebrew verb see Gen 18:19; Amos 3:2.

I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the Lord by doing54 what is right and just. Then the Lord will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him." (Genesis 18:19)

52 tn Heb "For I have known him." The verb udy (y`d*u) here means "to recognize and treat in a special manner; to choose" (see Amos 3:2). It indicates that Abraham stood in a special covenantal relationship with the Lord.

"I have chosen3 you alone from all the clans of the earth. Therefore I will punish you for all your sins." (Amos 3:2)

3 tn Heb "You only have I known." The Hebrew verb ud~y` (y`d^u) is used here in its covenantal sense of "recognize in a special way."

And Adam had marital relations51 with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son. (Genesis 4:25)

51 tn Heb "knew," a frequent euphemism for sexual relations.

(above from bible.org)

For sexual intercourse, the Old Testament writers use the verb bo ("to enter" or "to go into" ) or the euphemisms "to lie with" (yashav) and "to know" (yada). ("To know" in this sense is subsequently found also in Greek, as ginosko.) These sexual terms occur many times in the Hebrew Bible, and typically each use covers the whole sexual encounter, any foreplay or other elaboration not being a narrative concern. (See KISSING.) Usually the only point seems to be that the lovers are about the task of being fruitful and multiplying (e.g., "And Adam knew Eve," who bears Cain [Gen. 4:1]), though at times the encounter, as far as the man is concerned, is for sexual gratification (see, for example, BATHSHEBA and JUDAH AND TAMAR).

http://www.hobrad.com/andl.htm#LOVEMAKING

M.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

As a student of Hebrew, I loved this reply. Well done wrapping it all together Serg.

I'm not a student of Hebrew, but I've done some looking and this is what I found:

"Before I formed you in your mother's womb7 I chose you.8Before you were born I set you apart.I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

8 tn Heb "I knew you." The parallelism here with "set you apart" and "appointed you" make clear that Jeremiah is speaking of his foreordination to be a prophet. For this same nuance of the Hebrew verb see Gen 18:19; Amos 3:2.

I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the Lord by doing54 what is right and just. Then the Lord will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him." (Genesis 18:19)

52 tn Heb "For I have known him." The verb udy (y`d*u) here means "to recognize and treat in a special manner; to choose" (see Amos 3:2). It indicates that Abraham stood in a special covenantal relationship with the Lord.

The more I read, the more I am impressed with just about everyone on this site.

"I have chosen3 you alone from all the clans of the earth. Therefore I will punish you for all your sins." (Amos 3:2)

3 tn Heb "You only have I known." The Hebrew verb ud~y` (y`d^u) is used here in its covenantal sense of "recognize in a special way."

And Adam had marital relations51 with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son. (Genesis 4:25)

51 tn Heb "knew," a frequent euphemism for sexual relations.

(above from bible.org)

For sexual intercourse, the Old Testament writers use the verb bo ("to enter" or "to go into" ) or the euphemisms "to lie with" (yashav) and "to know" (yada). ("To know" in this sense is subsequently found also in Greek, as ginosko.) These sexual terms occur many times in the Hebrew Bible, and typically each use covers the whole sexual encounter, any foreplay or other elaboration not being a narrative concern. (See KISSING.) Usually the only point seems to be that the lovers are about the task of being fruitful and multiplying (e.g., "And Adam knew Eve," who bears Cain [Gen. 4:1]), though at times the encounter, as far as the man is concerned, is for sexual gratification (see, for example, BATHSHEBA and JUDAH AND TAMAR).

http://www.hobrad.com/andl.htm#LOVEMAKING

M.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

As a student of Hebrew, I loved this reply. Well done wrapping it all together Serg.

I'm not a student of Hebrew, but I've done some looking and this is what I found:

"Before I formed you in your mother's womb7 I chose you.8Before you were born I set you apart.I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

8 tn Heb "I knew you." The parallelism here with "set you apart" and "appointed you" make clear that Jeremiah is speaking of his foreordination to be a prophet. For this same nuance of the Hebrew verb see Gen 18:19; Amos 3:2.

I have chosen him52 so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep53 the way of the Lord by doing54 what is right and just. Then the Lord will give55 to Abraham what he promised56 him." (Genesis 18:19)

52 tn Heb "For I have known him." The verb udy (y`d*u) here means "to recognize and treat in a special manner; to choose" (see Amos 3:2). It indicates that Abraham stood in a special covenantal relationship with the Lord.

The more I read, the more I am impressed with just about everyone on this site.

"I have chosen3 you alone from all the clans of the earth. Therefore I will punish you for all your sins." (Amos 3:2)

3 tn Heb "You only have I known." The Hebrew verb ud~y` (y`d^u) is used here in its covenantal sense of "recognize in a special way."

And Adam had marital relations51 with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son. (Genesis 4:25)

51 tn Heb "knew," a frequent euphemism for sexual relations.

(above from bible.org)

For sexual intercourse, the Old Testament writers use the verb bo ("to enter" or "to go into" ) or the euphemisms "to lie with" (yashav) and "to know" (yada). ("To know" in this sense is subsequently found also in Greek, as ginosko.) These sexual terms occur many times in the Hebrew Bible, and typically each use covers the whole sexual encounter, any foreplay or other elaboration not being a narrative concern. (See KISSING.) Usually the only point seems to be that the lovers are about the task of being fruitful and multiplying (e.g., "And Adam knew Eve," who bears Cain [Gen. 4:1]), though at times the encounter, as far as the man is concerned, is for sexual gratification (see, for example, BATHSHEBA and JUDAH AND TAMAR).

http://www.hobrad.com/andl.htm#LOVEMAKING

M.

Well is this so? If it is a "stated" matter that the old testament uses ONLY sucha word to discribe sexual intercurse, then I think I read WRONG when I read and adam "KNEW" eve and they begat a son. I am NOT saynig that such a word relates ONLY to sexual intercourse, but, that it connotates such a PERSONAL and MUTUAL recognition(be it 'foreknowledge" in the case of God, or "appealing to" in case of couples), that the jew scribes found no other word to describe it, or plainly let us know that such use of the phrase 'knew thee" could ALSO be understood as the intimacy of two persons, and brethren , is not me who is inventing this one, most of the Pastors who preach preexistance preach it with this text

So is not us(only) that you all sholud be getting your arguments to, but a lot of other christians. :)

[dtse928]

I usually do not post in the forums for the fact that often times it is pages and pages of trying to prove a point that never gets across. *shrugs* but what do I know. All I have to say on this subject is that it is something I have studied and prayed about much and often. This singular matter has weighed upon my mind more than almost any other. I will not post anything more that will spin more and more ideas but I will say this simply-

I know that God is my Heavenly Father and that I literally am his daughter. He loves me and wants all of his children to return to him. I know that he has given us these bodies to learn and grow and to become more like him. He is our Father. I know this to be true, inside and out. When I have ripped everything else away the simple truthfulness of this Gospel was all that was there. I know it to be true. God loves us. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Kuma, I agree much with you. I've been investigating and attending the LDS church for 9 months. Within that time, God knows how sincerely I desired wisdom and answers. He gave me wisdom with miracles. I am a very strong believer of asking and receiving, seeking and finding, knocking and having the door opened.

If we seek sincerely in our hearts with intent (to do as what we learn of) he will find a way for us. I am the first in my family (and relatives?) to accept the Gospel of the LDS church.

Nine months ago, due to personal reasons (If you folks only knew the circumstances), I seeked and prayed for wisdom and guidance. ( we will all have a chance to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ at some point) I know I've never been more sincere and at such a needy moment in my life. I was lost! ...Within the next day, some of my prayer was answered. And the following Sunday, I ended up at the LDS Church (after attending a different church earlier that morning). It was that day that I got the answer to the question throughout my life: How do I know if there's a God. (BTW, I'm now 30) I always thought it was a self-fulling prophecy. (If you force yourself to believe, at some point, you will.) I was wrong. I now know that there is NO such thing as coincidences and that there's a purpose for everything. Within the last nine months, I've received so many miracles and blessings. I've also learned of why things happened the way they did. (If only I knew the end from the begining, I would know why.) I learned it was all for my benefit. Gods knows what's best for us, even if we don't know or agree with it at the time.

I'll mention just a couple of the many miracles and extreme things that've happened to me in this short time.

- I had a prayer answered within half an hour and the chances were less than 1000 to one, it was catered for exactly what I needed (even more than I had known at the time). This was after seeking the advice of a life time LDS member friend who I've known since the 1st grade. I called him long distance to speak about the painful situation that I was in. He told me to pray after getting of the phone. I prayed and God knew the urgency of my need. I called my friend back afterwards and told him about the miracle. He was so amazed! I was also so thrilled. The following month, I gave my testimony in church.

- After speaking against Satan and correcting the awlful things (I would never dare say) my (non-believing) friend said about God and praising of Satan, I had a feeling that something would happen that night. After going to bed that night, I was attacked. It was something I had never experience to that extreme before. And I immediately knew what it was. I commanded it to leave in the name of Jesus Christ. It immediately left. But right afterwards, I couldn't move or speak. I sensed a dark presence. I was in that state for some time. I prayed in my mind and thought of the light of heaven. It let off to a point where I could say something. I again, this time loudly, commanded whatever it was to leave. It left. I jumped up, turned on the lights and began reading the scriptures. The lights remained on until the morning. After speaking to some members of my ward with experience in these matters, I learned of why there were TWO evil spirits that attacked me. I later had myself and our house blessed. I've never felt anything else in my home since. (Interesting thing is that we had the house blessed before in the past by a priest of a different church or belief. Obviously, he didn't have the proper Preisthood Authority.)

After looking through the pages in this thread (and I did learn a lot through the readings), it really does prove to me that "contention" is not of the Lord. (I often fail and end up contending with others at times) Time after time, I know that no one can change another person's belief unless the Holy Spirit does so and it is that time for that person.

We all need to seek for ourselves the truth through prayer, being humble, grateful and most importantly (in my opinion) with intent. God knows how sincere our prayers are. If you don't mean it, it's as if you didn't pray at all.

I know how perfect our Heavenly Father is. I see it so often. I know that all who have the desire will be given a chance at some point. I also know that God is litterally our spiritual father because he loves us so much that he wants us to be just like him, to be perfect at some point. What father wouldn't want the best for his kids?

This may sound strange to many, but I am not baptized yet and I'm not officially a member of the LDS Church yet. God knows how much I desire to be baptized. But there are reasons/purposes, that I currently may not know. I just know that the closer I get to God, the more the adversary tries to stop me. At the same time, I've seen opportunities that God creates when there were none. I'm currently struggling to do all that is needed. I've not prayed and read the scriptures as much as I need. The Holy Spirit testifies to me often. I need to overcome the doubts and temptations of Satan.

Baptism, something that many take for granted, can become so difficult to those that desire it so much. I know the joy of having the Gospel. And I've prayed often that Heavenly Father would give me wisdom so that I may be in service of others. I'm so grateful for all the blessings that I've received in such a short time. The comforting thing is that I know God will never give me something that I can't handle. If I do what is right, there will only be more blessings to come. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

[miztrniceguy]

<div class='quotemain'>

I usually do not post in the forums for the fact that often times it is pages and pages of trying to prove a point that never gets across. *shrugs* but what do I know. All I have to say on this subject is that it is something I have studied and prayed about much and often. This singular matter has weighed upon my mind more than almost any other. I will not post anything more that will spin more and more ideas but I will say this simply-

I know that God is my Heavenly Father and that I literally am his daughter. He loves me and wants all of his children to return to him. I know that he has given us these bodies to learn and grow and to become more like him. He is our Father. I know this to be true, inside and out. When I have ripped everything else away the simple truthfulness of this Gospel was all that was there. I know it to be true. God loves us. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Kuma, I agree much with you. I've been investigating and attending the LDS church for 9 months. Within that time, God knows how sincerely I desired wisdom and answers. He gave me wisdom with miracles. I am a very strong believer of asking and receiving, seeking and finding, knocking and having the door opened.

If we seek sincerely in our hearts with intent (to do as what we learn of) he will find a way for us. I am the first in my family (and relatives?) to accept the Gospel of the LDS church.

Nine months ago, due to personal reasons (If you folks only knew the circumstances), I seeked and prayed for wisdom and guidance. ( we will all have a chance to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ at some point) I know I've never been more sincere and at such a needy moment in my life. I was lost! ...Within the next day, some of my prayer was answered. And the following Sunday, I ended up at the LDS Church (after attending a different church earlier that morning). It was that day that I got the answer to the question throughout my life: How do I know if there's a God. (BTW, I'm now 30) I always thought it was a self-fulling prophecy. (If you force yourself to believe, at some point, you will.) I was wrong. I now know that there is NO such thing as coincidences and that there's a purpose for everything. Within the last nine months, I've received so many miracles and blessings. I've also learned of why things happened the way they did. (If only I knew the end from the begining, I would know why.) I learned it was all for my benefit. Gods knows what's best for us, even if we don't know or agree with it at the time.

I'll mention just a couple of the many miracles and extreme things that've happened to me in this short time.

- I had a prayer answered within half an hour and the chances were less than 1000 to one, it was catered for exactly what I needed (even more than I had known at the time). This was after seeking the advice of a life time LDS member friend who I've known since the 1st grade. I called him long distance to speak about the painful situation that I was in. He told me to pray after getting of the phone. I prayed and God knew the urgency of my need. I called my friend back afterwards and told him about the miracle. He was so amazed! I was also so thrilled. The following month, I gave my testimony in church.

- After speaking against Satan and correcting the awlful things (I would never dare say) my (non-believing) friend said about God and praising of Satan, I had a feeling that something would happen that night. After going to bed that night, I was attacked. It was something I had never experience to that extreme before. And I immediately knew what it was. I commanded it to leave in the name of Jesus Christ. It immediately left. But right afterwards, I couldn't move or speak. I sensed a dark presence. I was in that state for some time. I prayed in my mind and thought of the light of heaven. It let off to a point where I could say something. I again, this time loudly, commanded whatever it was to leave. It left. I jumped up, turned on the lights and began reading the scriptures. The lights remained on until the morning. After speaking to some members of my ward with experience in these matters, I learned of why there were TWO evil spirits that attacked me. I later had myself and our house blessed. I've never felt anything else in my home since. (Interesting thing is that we had the house blessed before in the past by a priest of a different church or belief. Obviously, he didn't have the proper Preisthood Authority.)

After looking through the pages in this thread (and I did learn a lot through the readings), it really does prove to me that "contention" is not of the Lord. (I often fail and end up contending with others at times) Time after time, I know that no one can change another person's belief unless the Holy Spirit does so and it is that time for that person.

We all need to seek for ourselves the truth through prayer, being humble, grateful and most importantly (in my opinion) with intent. God knows how sincere our prayers are. If you don't mean it, it's as if you didn't pray at all.

I know how perfect our Heavenly Father is. I see it so often. I know that all who have the desire will be given a chance at some point. I also know that God is litterally our spiritual father because he loves us so much that he wants us to be just like him, to be perfect at some point. What father wouldn't want the best for his kids?

This may sound strange to many, but I am not baptized yet and I'm not officially a member of the LDS Church yet. God knows how much I desire to be baptized. But there are reasons/purposes, that I currently may not know. I just know that the closer I get to God, the more the adversary tries to stop me. At the same time, I've seen opportunities that God creates when there were none. I'm currently struggling to do all that is needed. I've not prayed and read the scriptures as much as I need. The Holy Spirit testifies to me often. I need to overcome the doubts and temptations of Satan.

Baptism, something that many take for granted, can become so difficult to those that desire it so much. I know the joy of having the Gospel. And I've prayed often that Heavenly Father would give me wisdom so that I may be in service of others. I'm so grateful for all the blessings that I've received in such a short time. The comforting thing is that I know God will never give me something that I can't handle. If I do what is right, there will only be more blessings to come. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Amen

[prisonchaplain]

The problem with your conclusion is that it does not follow th eproper study of such instances in scripture. As in Jeremiah, the word "knew" is not of knowledge, but the same hebrew word described in genesis when "Adam knew his wife" and "begat Cain". It is a word intending intimacy of TWO, not one alone. Indeed one cannot have intimacy with the forknowledge of someone but with the present reaction of such person. If God(as a "defense of yours") could have such intimate relationship of love with us without creating us, then He didnt have to create us "out of his love to share it with us" as most protestants teach. He could have remain sharing His love PERFECTLY with His "premonition" of us. Further more, if we speak in terms of logic, He could not have known us intimately(as to "know"-hebrew) us without creating us, because if he had not recently created us he could not remotely remember or forknow such action. He foreknew that He creted us, as he later did. Not other wise.

I studied New Testament Greek in seminary for two years, through which God taught me great humility. The first year we learned all the rules. The second year we learned many of the exceptions to the rules. I very much doubt that the word for God's "foreknowledge," necessarily, or always, in any context, indicate intimate marital-like 'knowing.' As a simple example:

1. I love icecream!

2. I really like you, honey.

Which one do I care more of. Now, the dictionary will clearly indicate that "love" is of a greater degree than "like." Yet, I care more for my honey than I do icecream.

Likewise, God's foreknowledge of us in one case, and Adam's 'knowledge' of Eve in another, would not necessarily indicate the same type of relationship, even if the Hebrew word were the same.

So this simply works otherwise to our fellow christian brethren, just as "Ever incrising Faith Ministries" in california, and "Fount of Living waters' in Puerto Rico, all both conservative and liberal evangelicals, are praching preexistance!

It is interesting that you found a couple of sects that teach preexistence, but I hope you are not trying to create the impression that such doctrine is widespread, or largely accepted in the Christian world. It's not. I would be truly amazed if the # of Christians who believe in the preexistence of human spirits would even register (i.e. would be greater than 0.5% of the 2 billion adherents in the world).

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

The problem with your conclusion is that it does not follow th eproper study of such instances in scripture. As in Jeremiah, the word "knew" is not of knowledge, but the same hebrew word described in genesis when "Adam knew his wife" and "begat Cain". It is a word intending intimacy of TWO, not one alone. Indeed one cannot have intimacy with the forknowledge of someone but with the present reaction of such person. If God(as a "defense of yours") could have such intimate relationship of love with us without creating us, then He didnt have to create us "out of his love to share it with us" as most protestants teach. He could have remain sharing His love PERFECTLY with His "premonition" of us. Further more, if we speak in terms of logic, He could not have known us intimately(as to "know"-hebrew) us without creating us, because if he had not recently created us he could not remotely remember or forknow such action. He foreknew that He creted us, as he later did. Not other wise.

I studied New Testament Greek in seminary for two years, through which God taught me great humility. The first year we learned all the rules. The second year we learned many of the exceptions to the rules. I very much doubt that the word for God's "foreknowledge," necessarily, or always, in any context, indicate intimate marital-like 'knowing.' As a simple example:

1. I love icecream!

2. I really like you, honey.

Which one do I care more of. Now, the dictionary will clearly indicate that "love" is of a greater degree than "like." Yet, I care more for my honey than I do icecream.

Likewise, God's foreknowledge of us in one case, and Adam's 'knowledge' of Eve in another, would not necessarily indicate the same type of relationship, even if the Hebrew word were the same.

So this simply works otherwise to our fellow christian brethren, just as "Ever incrising Faith Ministries" in california, and "Fount of Living waters' in Puerto Rico, all both conservative and liberal evangelicals, are praching preexistance!

It is interesting that you found a couple of sects that teach preexistence, but I hope you are not trying to create the impression that such doctrine is widespread, or largely accepted in the Christian world. It's not. I would be truly amazed if the # of Christians who believe in the preexistence of human spirits would even register (i.e. would be greater than 0.5% of the 2 billion adherents in the world).

Oh, but Ever incrising Faith Ministries is not a "sect", but an evangelical church, which by the way is accepted by the protestant comunity as it has over 30 years of ministry. Is just that fellow christians when they here these (their) brethren teach this, they take it with carefulness and mostly ignore it. But is there baby, is there

Dont worry, i know biblical sistematic theology, and I know that "preexistance" "cannot" be attributed to mortals, couse in fact, is one of the best "proofs" of Christ's deity while contending with arrianism, and as it was used there in respect of Jesus, it follows that if we attribute it to others as well, then, no case for Christ's divinity in this aspect, and the battle against the Jehova Witnesses would be lost, in that respect.

[Dror]

Ray challenged me to look for myself to the official http://www.lds.org website for answers to my questions about the premortal existence of humanity as spirits. He claimed there were numerous biblical references to our existence before the creation. So, here’s my verse by look at what the website offered.

The Scriptures

LDS HomeScriptures Study Helps Topical Guide M Man, Antemortal Existence of Prev | Next

TOPICAL GUIDE

MAN, ANTEMORTAL EXISTENCE OF

See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation

Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16) God of the spirits of all flesh.

Most Christians agree that we are body, soul and spirit. Some conflate soul/spirit. Our disagreement is over whether these spirits existed before the creation. The passage does not address this issue.

Job 38: 7 all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Most Christians agree that we are the sons and daughters of God. We disagree that we are essentially the same as Christ, the one and only begotten, God the Son. We are children by adoption and creation–not in our essence.

Eccl. 12: 7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We believe our souls to be both finite, in that they came into existence at conception, and immortal, because we face an everlasting destiny. Those who are blessed will return to the Father, those who are damned, will go to eternal punishment.

Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.

God is omniscient. He know all things, even before they are. There’s quite a theological discussion that is centuries old as to whether God’s foreknowledge means we are predestined to our everlasting fates.

Zech. 12: 1 Lord . . . formeth the spirit of man within him.

I would argue that if the Father formed our spirits, then they were created–they had a beginning.

John 9: 2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind.

I’m not sure what the reference has to do with premortal spirits. There was a common belief that children bore the punishment for their parents’ sins–Jesus refutes this–in this case saying the man was born this way so that God might be glorified.

Acts 17: 28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Paul is addressing a group of intellectuals and explaining that just as they have known that we are the offspring (i.e. creation) of God, he is now going to tell them who that God is and how they can be reconciled to Him. That we are called offspring would not be meant to contradict John 3:16, in which Jesus is called the ONLY begotten of God.

Rom. 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

This is a favorite verse of Calvinists, who believe God pre-determined our fates, because of his sovereignty. Such a view would diminish any free agency or will we might have. Regardless, this verse does not mean that the Father had intimate relationship with us before creation, but rather that He knew we were coming and what we would become.

Eph. 1: 4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Once again, God’s foreknowledge of our existence does not mean that we had intimate relationship with him prior to creation.

Heb. 12: 9 subjection unto the Father of spirits.

God created us with spirits–so He surely is the Father of spirits.

Jude 1: 6 angels which kept not their first estate.

I believe this refers to Satan and a third of the angels who rebelled against God, thus leaving their domain or estate. I’m not sure how this relates to the premortal existence of HUMAN spirits.

Rev. 12: 7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon.

I’m not sure what relevence this passage has. Yes, angels did exist before human creation. That does not mean we do.

Conclusion: If we presuppose the antemortal existence of human spirits, these verses could bolster that belief. However, if without that presupposition, these verses merely point to God’s foreknowledge of human existence, and perhaps even hint at predestination (though I’m not in that particular theological camp).

That's great, PrisonChaplain Dude! Thanks for posting this (saves me the work of looking it all up!).

[LionHeart]

P.C. I have a question. According to LDS belief, if we do not live our lives worthy of a celestial glory, we enter into a lesser kingdom; one of which is the terrestrial kingdom. If we receive that glory we become angels.

The questions I have is this: According to your beliefs, where do angels come from? And if we do not become angels or gods when we leave this life, what do we become. Do you have any biblical references I can look up?