Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom

[miztrniceguy]

And btw, for my going away cake, as a present, I’d prefer a COCONUT cake. :)

i'll have my wife bake one right away....i'll email it to ya...lol

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

It’s very simple really. And the solution is also simple. Get an answer and get it from God… RIGHT NOW!!!

I have, and it was something to the effect of, "The LDS church is not the true church." Go elsewhere.

Ray, it bugs me that you are so quick to discount the messages that others have gotten from God. You are not the 'end all, be all' who speaks for God.

[Ray]

Okay. Please get your story straight, shanstress. You just said this in another thread:

LINK

I was searching for my faith when I met my now-husband. He was LDS. We started talking about religion, then I took the discussions. It all sounded so wonderful, as they only touched on the positive points and left out any of the stuff that I call questionable. I was not really familiar with Mormonism at all, and wasn't even aware of the polygamous past. I decided to get baptized immediately after discussions with the missionaries bc I didn't really see a reason not to, and I knew it was really important to my fiance (who never pressured me, BTW). I was 28. I never really got the 'burning in the bosom' and never really had my own testimony, but I went through the motions and walked the walk. No, I shouldn't have been baptized, and that was a huge mistake that I made. I did it for the wrong reasons. I just wanted to find something that made sense, but as I soon found out <about some things that tested my faith, of which I had none>, this church did not make sense for me.

… I prayed constantly and kept attending, finding strength in the testimonies of others. I never got the feeling from God that I should stay... in fact, I kept getting the answer that I should leave.

And FYI, when you don’t have a testimony from God, and you are relying on the testimonies of other people who do have a testimony from God, you never really know who or what to believe, so you are very vulnerable to Satan and His influence.

But if you now want to state that your testimony to leave was a testimony directly from God, and not Satan, then I’ll see you in court where we will both hear the truth directly from God and His prophets.

And btw, hearing about those bad things you said happened to you and that you saw in the Church, really does break my heart, sincerely, and it let me know what to watch out for, but we should all know better than to rely on each other instead our own assurance from God.

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

It’s very simple really. And the solution is also simple. Get an answer and get it from God… RIGHT NOW!!!

I have, and it was something to the effect of, "The LDS church is not the true church." Go elsewhere.

Ray, it bugs me that you are so quick to discount the messages that others have gotten from God. You are not the 'end all, be all' who speaks for God.

I know I'm not, and I never said I was, I'm simply relying on the faith I have received from God.

... and I know better than to listen to Satan.

[shanstress70]

Okay. Please get your story straight, shanstress. You just said this in another thread:

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, Ray. This is the same thing I was saying in two different posts...

1st post - I never really got the 'burning in the bosom' and never really had my own testimony, but I went through the motions and walked the walk. No, I shouldn't have been baptized, and that was a huge mistake that I made. I did it for the wrong reasons. I just wanted to find something that made sense, but as I soon found out <about some things that tested my faith, of which I had none>, this church did not make sense for me. … I prayed constantly and kept attending, finding strength in the testimonies of others. I never got the feeling from God that I should stay... in fact, I kept getting the answer that I should leave.

2nd post - I have (gotten my answer from God), and it was something to the effect of, "The LDS church is not the true church." Go elsewhere.

How are these two statements contradicting each other, Ray? How is my story not straight?

[Ray]

Okay. I’ll try to clear this up for you.

1st question: Have you or have you not ever received a “burning in the bosom” from God?

In one post you stated that you “never really got the “burning in the bosom” <from God>.

2nd question: Have you or have you not ever had a testimony <of truth from God>?

In that post of yours you simply stated that you never “got the feeling” <from God> that you should stay in the Church, although you did get a feeling <from somebody, and you didn't say who> making you feel as if you should leave the Church, which is not a positive message, and anyone who knows Satan knows he’ll avoid declaring a truth by declaring lies and trying to divert our attention.

And btw, when a latter day saint talks about receiving a “burning in the bosom” or a “testimony” from God, as God assures a latter day saint of the truth, we’re saying we have received, and know how to receive, an assurance from God telling us what is true… so don’t act all shocked and surprised when you hear a LDS say we know the truth as well as how to find out what is true, as if you don't understand what we're saying.

And btw, if you have also received an assurance from God, you should also know how to find out what is true, so why ask me when you can ask God for the truth?

Hmmmmmm??? :)

[shanstress70]

Okay. I’ll try to clear this up for you.

1st question: Have you or have you not ever received a “burning in the bosom” from God?

In one post you stated that you “never really got the “burning in the bosom” <from God>.

2nd question: Have you or have you not ever had a testimony <of truth from God>?

In that post of yours you simply stated that you never “got the feeling” <from God> that you should stay in the Church, although you did get a feeling <from somebody, and you didn't say who> making you feel as if you should leave the Church, which is not a positive message, and anyone who knows Satan knows he’ll avoid declaring a truth by declaring lies and trying to divert our attention.

And btw, when a latter day saint talks about receiving a “burning in the bosom” or a “testimony” from God, as God assures a latter day saint of the truth, we’re saying we have received, and know how to receive, an assurance from God telling us what is true… so don’t act all shocked and surprised when you hear a LDS say we know the truth as well as how to find out what is true, as if you don't understand what we're saying.

What I was saying was that I have not received the 'burning in the bosom' feeling when reading the BoM that it is true. I never got this and should not have been baptized... my big mistake.

I have had direction from God telling me that the LDS church is not the true church, that God would not create a church that creates such negative feelings for women, or anyone. (Regardless of what you or anyone on this board says, I have spoken with MANY LDS women who are not OK with some issues, especially polygamy.)

I have had direction from God telling me that the denomination of the church you attend does not matter. What matters is your personal relationship with Christ.

How dare you say that these messages are from Satan?!?! They are from God... I'm just as certain of that as you seem to be that what you've been led to believe is from God. You are not spiritually superior to me, Ray... no one is.

And btw, if you have also received an assurance from God, you should also know how to find out what is true, so why ask me when you can ask God for the truth?

Hmmmmmm??? :)

Perhaps we have communication issues with one another Ray, but what the heck are you talking about here? When have I asked you for the truth? All I asked you before is, why are you saying my two accounts are contradicting each other, when they absolutely are not.

I'm SO glad you decided to stay.

[Ray]

Okay, then without asking me, or anyone else but God, please explain how this statement…

… the denomination of the church you attend does not matter. What matters is your personal relationship with Christ.

can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children?

And if you try to tell me that God really doesn’t really care about what we believe and what we all do, then I’ll know better than to believe what you say.

Ta ta. :)

[pushka]

I would say that anybody trying to get a personal relationship with Jesus Christ would read his words/commandments (sermon on the mount) and try to follow those as closely as possible, without having to follow all of the 'man made' rules that separate churches/denominations place in front of believers.

[shanstress70]

Okay, then without asking me, or anyone else but God, please explain how this statement…

… the denomination of the church you attend does not matter. What matters is your personal relationship with Christ.

can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children?

And if you try to tell me that God really doesn’t really care about what we believe and what we all do, then I’ll know better than to believe what you say.

Ta ta. :)

I don't believe that you have to believe in every little aspect of the church you choose to attend. I see church as a way of people getting together sharing their beliefs and experiences and trying to figure it all out. I don't believe it's all cut and dry - if so we wouldn't have so many denominations based on the same bible.

I do believe that God cares what we believe and what we do, of course! But not everyone agrees on what those things are. We're all, as Christians, trying to please God in the way that we think is best. If He wanted us to all believe the same thing, and didn't want us to hash it out, He would personally tell us what that is. I believe we will find it all out in the afterlife.

I'm done with this conversation with you, Ray. We don't have such a great success rate when it comes to discussing these things.

[Ray]

I'm glad we agree, pushka. I also don't believe we should follow "man-made rules", although I do believe God gives rules (or instructions) to men on Earth telling them to pass them on to the rest of us. :)

And btw, if you choose to disagree with me, that's your choice, and you're entitled to it, but I hope you'll learn and continue to learn from God and His prophets.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I know a dead horse when I beat one.

<the sound of a stick whapping something is heard>

It's dead guys. Let's bury it and move on to new threads, eh?

[Ray]

Okay. But I'd still like a coconut cake from somebody. :)

[Lindy]

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?" And, indeed, Barna Polling recently came out with the surprising statistic that 44% of LDS, when asked a series of theological questions, would indeed fit the evangelical definition of being "born again." (What's up with the other 56% ).

So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation:

1. I've done the ABCs.

2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion.

3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.

4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church.

5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice.

So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

To me.... YES PC if you live the life that God wants you to live, follow all the commandments and things He wants you to do in life..... YES

I'm sure that there will be more non LDS people in the CK than some think..... it's up to the Holy powers to decide, not to us here on earth.

My 2 cents plus change

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, then without asking me, or anyone else but God, please explain how this statement…

… the denomination of the church you attend does not matter. What matters is your personal relationship with Christ.

can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children?

I've got to respond, because it's the kind of quote I might have said--and something I've been driving at for some time. The question "Which church is the right one?" is a question that has no answer--other than the holy catholic (read: universal) church of Jesus Christ. In other words, there is a remnant of true believers in MOST Christian churches.

Ray asks, "How can this be so, since they teach different doctrines?" From my initial readings into the primary texts, and from viewing some LDS movies (hey--you can at least catch the flavor of the culture)--this is the very issue that young Joseph Smith found so distressing.

The answer: The simple gospel can be understood by little children, but none of our theologians--including the ones at BYU--will ever have a total grasp on God's word--written or revealed in these latter days. So, those churches that anchor themselves in the simple gospel, will vary in their teachings far less than you imagine--and over issues that, while serious, are not essential.

[prisonchaplain]

I know a dead horse when I beat one.

<the sound of a stick whapping something is heard>

It's dead guys. Let's bury it and move on to new threads, eh?

Nah...let me get one more good whack in!

Seriously: Here's how I see the faith vs. works question...

1. You need 'faith' to accept the 'free gift' of salvation, through forgiveness of sins, paid for the by the blood of Jesus Christ.

2. Accepting the gift of eternal life, means accepting God's new life. There is repentence (turning away from sin. There is an embracing of God's ways--including the Two Great Commandments--to love God and neighbor (Matthew 22:37-40).

3. Enduring to the end. Calvinists argue that this is automatic for the Elect. Arminians says we must "struggle daily to work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Most LDS seem to side with us Arminians. In a sense, it matters not. Those so-called Calvinists who do not "endure to the end," would be deemed as never having truly converted. So, ultimately, all Christians do believe in doing so--we just describe the how and why differently.

4. The misunderstanding between LDS and most others is that LDS tend to conflate conversion (step #1) with #2 and #3, and speak right away about works--causing non-LDS to say, "You can't earn salvation." Bottom-line--you can't earn it, but if you get it, there will be fruit.

Hopefully, with this summary, we can stuff and frame the horse for display, rather than beating it to death. B)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Nah...let me get one more good whack in!

...

Hopefully, with this summary, we can stuff and frame the horse for display, rather than beating it to death.

HEADLINE: DEAD HORSE MIRACULOUSLY CHANGED INTO HORSE SOUP!

Today, a local Chaplain beat a horse carcass into a puddle of bloody jello, shocking taxidermists and PETA members alike. One witness said, "I told 'em to stop beatin' the poor beast, but they just hammered on it like a swiss steak with a reckless abandon I've not seen the likes of before." The witness gave his name as simply AK, adding that he'd already signed and posted the horse's death certificate. Apparently, that wasn't enough to stop today's primal carnage. Reporting live from cyberspace, this is YouKnowWho...back to you Bob.

[miztrniceguy]

quote "3. Enduring to the end. Calvinists argue that this is automatic for the Elect. Arminians says we must "struggle daily to work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Most LDS seem to side with us Arminians. In a sense, it matters not. Those so-called Calvinists who do not "endure to the end," would be deemed as never having truly converted. So, ultimately, all Christians do believe in doing so--we just describe the how and why differently." quote

I'm a Calvinist...he and his tiger, Hobbes, just make me laugh like crazy

[prisonchaplain]

HEADLINE: DEAD HORSE MIRACULOUSLY CHANGED INTO HORSE SOUP!

You're not the comedian who sent an issue of The Onion to our chapel library, are you?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Okay, then without asking me, or anyone else but God, please explain how this statement…

… the denomination of the church you attend does not matter. What matters is your personal relationship with Christ.

can be true in light of the fact that each church (or group of people who gather for religious instruction and worship) has different beliefs and doctrine concerning God and Jesus Christ about what we (all people) should believe and what we (all people) should do to be pleasing to God as His children?

I've got to respond, because it's the kind of quote I might have said--and something I've been driving at for some time. The question "Which church is the right one?" is a question that has no answer--other than the holy catholic (read: universal) church of Jesus Christ. In other words, there is a remnant of true believers in MOST Christian churches.

Ray asks, "How can this be so, since they teach different doctrines?" From my initial readings into the primary texts, and from viewing some LDS movies (hey--you can at least catch the flavor of the culture)--this is the very issue that young Joseph Smith found so distressing.

The answer: The simple gospel can be understood by little children, but none of our theologians--including the ones at BYU--will ever have a total grasp on God's word--written or revealed in these latter days. So, those churches that anchor themselves in the simple gospel, will vary in their teachings far less than you imagine--and over issues that, while serious, are not essential.

Not essential to what, or to who, and who are you to say that to others?

If we believe we are to become as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, as our Lord gave that command to others, then we should be trying to learn ALL truth in our effort to become that perfect.

So who is to say this truth is not essential, while that truth definitely is, if each truth can help us to know God better and become just as perfect as Him.

And while I do know there are “true believers” in every walk and way to live life, who simply don’t know about certain truths because they don’t know where or how to find them, I also know we will all become “one” as we become more and more like God, and those who know the most truths on Earth are those who are and were in His church with inspiration and authority from God to share His truths with others... who can also receive inspiration and authority from God.

And btw, I didn’t intend to beat that horse anymore but I felt “I’ve got to respond”, and now that I know this thought has been shared I’ll let the dead horse waste away.

p.s. And to try to help control my "urge" in the future, I'll try to avoid even reading your posts.

[miztrniceguy]

FOR SALE:...One horse....not dead, not to be beaten....cost=priceless

[Ray]

If he's not too deaf or stubborn I'll take Him. My Lord will cover all of the costs. But if he's rebellious, and won't do his work, he's good for only how good he is.

Btw, the worth of a soul is not priceless, because it's directly related to potential for excellence, and those who are willing are worth a far more (and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory) than those who don't want to be excellent.

But he still has some time to come around.

[miztrniceguy]

If he's not too deaf or stubborn I'll take Him. My Lord will cover all of the costs. But if he's rebellious, and won't do his work, he's good for only how good he is.

Btw, the worth of a soul is not priceless, because it's directly related to potential for excellence, and those who are willing are worth a far more (and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory) than those who don't want to be excellent.

But he still has some time to come around.

this horse doesn't get stuck in the mire....and comes with HCA insurance B)

[prisonchaplain]

Not essential to what, or to who, and who are you to say that to others?

Not essential to salvation, Ray--to our "entry into the Celestial Kingdom," the title of this string. I say it because, as I said elsewhere, most Christians expect to see most other Christians in heaven. Most Calvinists expect to see most Arminians in heaven. Most in the Assemblies of God expect to see most Baptists in heaven. And yes, I expect to see one of my faithful Church of Christ volunteers in heaven--even if he's not willing to play his guitars in church on Sundays.

If we believe we are to become as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, as our Lord gave that command to others, then we should be trying to learn ALL truth in our effort to become that perfect.

Well, of course we never stop growing in truth. We want to get what we can right. When Jesus said that, he was, in context, referring to our loving our enemies. 1 Cor. 13 reminds that right now we see through the glass that is cloudy or dark, but when we see Jesus we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

Now, Ray, I know you're not answering--but do you really think there are BYU theologians who can speak with 100% spiritual truth and perfection, with no hint of opinion or error?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Not essential to what, or to who, and who are you to say that to others?

Not essential to salvation, Ray--to our "entry into the Celestial Kingdom," the title of this string. I say it because, as I said elsewhere, most Christians expect to see most other Christians in heaven. Most Calvinists expect to see most Arminians in heaven. Most in the Assemblies of God expect to see most Baptists in heaven. And yes, I expect to see one of my faithful Church of Christ volunteers in heaven--even if he's not willing to play his guitars in church on Sundays.

Well, guess what. You will. But you won’t see our Father in heaven unless you do and believe what He tells you through Jesus.

<div class='quotemain'>

If we believe we are to become as perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, as our Lord gave that command to others, then we should be trying to learn ALL truth in our effort to become that perfect.

Well, of course we never stop growing in truth. We want to get what we can right. When Jesus said that, he was, in context, referring to our loving our enemies. 1 Cor. 13 reminds that right now we see through the glass that is cloudy or dark, but when we see Jesus we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

I agree that we can’t learn everything about God and His ways in this life, but we can learn to know Him when we see Him, and those who do see Him will not be surprised that He is what He told them through revelation.

Now, Ray, I know you're not answering--but do you really think there are BYU theologians who can speak with 100% spiritual truth and perfection, with no hint of opinion or error?

Yes, I do, on some things, because I know the “theologians” at BYU are God’s prophets… with a prophet being defined as someone who receives knowledge from God, instead of simply relying upon what other people have taught them.

And I wish you’d try to get it through your head that you don’t have to be a “theologian” to know God.

And as a matter of fact, any theologian who is not a prophet of God does not know true knowledge from God.

Or in other words, a college degree in “theology” is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God’s prophets, the sooner we’ll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God.

As I told you before, a long time ago, you still seem to be basing most of your knowledge upon college, by thinking you know more than we “lay persons" know about God, when a “worldly” education is not at all necessary to gain any true knowledge from God.

But it does help to get a "good job” in the world, though. Doesn’t it.

Hello. My name is Ray. And I am addicted to LDS Talk.

[prisonchaplain]

Well, guess what. You will. But you won’t see our Father in heaven unless you do and believe what He tells you through Jesus.

I will too be in the present of my Daddy in heaven--because I say, do, and believe what He teaches me through Jesus.

Yes, I do, on some things, because I know the “theologians” at BYU are God’s prophets… with a prophet being defined as someone who receives knowledge from God, instead of simply relying upon what other people have taught them.

WOW. Any other LDS want to comment on this. Are the theology/religion professors at BYU prophets of God, and thus infallible?

And I wish you’d try to get it through your head that you don’t have to be a “theologian” to know God.

While I never said that, I might. Think about it. Theos = God, ology is the common suffix for study of, or knowledge. So, theology = knowledge of God. So, a theologian is a student of God. If you're not learning about God, then how can you know God? Instantaneous revelation?

I'll compromise, though. You don't have to be a theologian to come to know God, but you have to become one to grow in that knowledge.

And as a matter of fact, any theologian who is not a prophet of God does not know true knowledge from God.

Ray, are you a prophet?

Or in other words, a college degree in “theology” is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God’s prophets, the sooner we’ll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God.

But, apparently it's a good route, since you've stated that BYU theology professors are prophets of God. B)

As I told you before, a long time ago, you still seem to be basing most of your knowledge upon college, by thinking you know more than we “lay persons" know about God, when a “worldly” education is not at all necessary to gain any true knowledge from God.

Ray, you're just wrong. You seeing things. I've not said or implied any such thing. Furthermore, my training was not "worldly."

But it does help to get a "good job” in the world, though. Doesn’t it.

You do realize this crack sounds rather smart aleck, don't you? Seriously, you've been taught, and you've bragged that the LDS do not speak poorly about other religions or people. Then you accuse me, falsely, of flaunting my education, and of using my training simply to get a good job (as opposed to following the will of God, come what may). I'm disappointed, Ray. I thought you'd come to know me a little better than this.