Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom

[Lindy]

Holy Cow Ray

I understand most of what you are saying....but I'll tell you honestly... if I was in a class at BYU and a professor stood up and said.... "believe what I am saying.... I am a prophet of God" I would probably get up and leave. If he was President Hinkley..... I would stay. If he said "I am an Apostle... hear what I have to say" I would sit and listen.... but to think that a college professer is a prophet? No, not this gal.

But I will agree with you on the theology aspect..... just because one studies theology, doesn't mean one feels the spirit of God. And that is what a good theologian is made up of..... brains and spirit.

PC..... I think you have both.

[Ray]

Well, guess what. You will. But you won’t see our Father in heaven unless you do and believe what He tells you through Jesus.

I will too be in the present of my Daddy in heaven--because I say, do, and believe what He teaches me through Jesus.

Perhaps you have learned some true knowledge from God, but you still have a whole lot to learn, and until you learn to accept ALL His words, either from Him or ALL of His prophets, you will not know all you still need to learn.

Yes, I do <believe and know that BYU theologian professors are infallible> on some things <or ideas they profess to be true>, because I know the “theologians” at BYU are God’s prophets… with a prophet being defined as someone who receives knowledge from God, instead of simply relying upon what other people have taught them.

WOW. Any other LDS want to comment on this. Are the theology/religion professors at BYU prophets of God, and thus infallible?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt by believing that you actually did not mean to misquote me, when I said they are infallible on some things, or by the knowledge they receive from revelation from God, instead of simply what others have told them.

Or in other words, not only is God infallible, but those who God teaches are too, in all of those things they do learn from God as God teaches them (and us) of His truths.

And I wish you’d try to get it through your head that you don’t have to be a “theologian” to know God.

While I never said that, I might. Think about it. Theos = God, ology is the common suffix for study of, or knowledge. So, theology = knowledge of God. So, a theologian is a student of God. If you're not learning about God, then how can you know God? Instantaneous revelation?

But some people who study to gain knowledge of God do not learn who God truly is… because instead of learning directly from God they learn only from people who think they know God, so in fact they have not learned the truth.

And yes, as strange as it seems to sound to you, we should all be learning by instantaneous revelation from God, every day as we pray to seek knowledge, instead of only from others who truly do know Him, or from those who only think that they do.

I'll compromise, though. You don't have to be a theologian to come to know God, but you have to become one to grow in that knowledge.

It seems you didn’t understand me as I tried to reveal my thoughts in my words, because I was using the word “theologian” to refer to someone with a college diploma who has simply learned what others have taught him and did not learn true knowledge from God.

And as a matter of fact, any theologian who is not a prophet of God does not know true knowledge from God.

Ray, are you a prophet?

Would it be so strange to think that I was, by receiving my knowledge from God?

All members of His Church are or should be true prophets, and receive all their knowledge from God.

And I know we’ve discussed this in several other threads, though now you don’t seem to remember.

Or in other words, a college degree in “theology” is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God’s prophets, the sooner we’ll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God.

But, apparently it's a good route, since you've stated that BYU theology professors are prophets of God.

But the only way I knew and know that is true is by receiving that knowledge from God.

As I told you before, a long time ago, you still seem to be basing most of your knowledge upon college, by thinking you know more than we “lay persons" know about God, when a “worldly” education is not at all necessary to gain any true knowledge from God.

Ray, you're just wrong. You’re seeing things. I've not said or implied any such thing. Furthermore, my training was not "worldly."

Then why does it seem you believe revelation from God is only contained in the Bible, as you were taught that from your teachers in college? If anyone can gain true knowledge from God, then those people are also true prophets… to the degree they obtain their true knowledge from God… and not simply by reading and believing other people who said they were prophets even if their words are contained in the Bible.

But it does help to get a "good job” in the world, though. Doesn’t it.

You do realize this crack sounds rather smart aleck, don't you? Seriously, you've been taught, and you've bragged that the LDS do not speak poorly about other religions or people. Then you accuse me, falsely, of flaunting my education, and of using my training simply to get a good job (as opposed to following the will of God, come what may). I'm disappointed, Ray. I thought you'd come to know me a little better than this.

You misunderstood me again there, Tommy, though you may think you do know what I meant, but I know my thoughts even better than you and I know you did not see what I meant… and instead of simply asking me to clear up my point, you made another assumption with accusations.

And to clear up this point for your benefit, I’ll try using some other good words, but to know what I mean you should try to understand that my words are imperfect reflections.

Anyone who understands the ways of this world knows a college diploma helps to get a “good job”. But God does not care about that piece of paper, and we don’t need it to gain knowledge from God.

Better now?

Or in other words, “lay people” can learn as much if not more from God than people who go to college to learn, because learning from others instead of learning from God may not give them true knowledge from God… so only by learning directly from God can we know when we and others know the truth.

Holy Cow Ray

I understand most of what you are saying....but I'll tell you honestly... if I was in a class at BYU and a professor stood up and said.... "believe what I am saying.... I am a prophet of God" I would probably get up and leave. If he was President Hinkley..... I would stay. If he said "I am an Apostle... hear what I have to say" I would sit and listen.... but to think that a college professer is a prophet? No, not this gal.

But I will agree with you on the theology aspect..... just because one studies theology, doesn't mean one feels the spirit of God. And that is what a good theologian is made up of..... brains and spirit.

PC..... I think you have both.

True prophets very rarely admit it, except to teach what a prophet truly is, but anyone who does gain true knowledge from God should be considered a true prophet of God.

And btw, in case you still don't get it, I'm not referring to Presidents of the Church, because while Presidents of the Church are prophets for the Church, we all are or should be God's true prophets... and aware there are "wolves in sheep's clothing".

[Guest ApostleKnight]

we all are or should be God's true prophets... and aware there are "wolves in sheep's clothing".

Ray, didn't you recently make a big deal about leaving this board and us in darkness, and walking towards the light or something? What're you still doing here, arguing with us people who "won't hear?" Did someone forget to mail your coconut cake? I'll get right on it. :)

[prisonchaplain]

'Ray Says . . . 2. Perhaps you have learned some true knowledge from God, but you still have a whole lot to learn, and until you learn to accept ALL His words, either from Him or ALL of His prophets, you will not know all you still need to learn.

The same could be said for all of us. We all have much to learn, and we need to accept all that God says to us. You believe you're ahead in this spiritual journey, because you've embraced Joseph Smith's teachings. If so, you know--to whom much is given, much is required.

At this point in my life, I've not received the same indications from my God. On the other hand, under his anointing I am making my way through Joseph Smith's writings. After I read and digest, I'll seek God's direction as to what I should take from them, and what of my learnings I should share at this forum.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt by believing that you actually did not mean to misquote me, when I said they are infallible on some things, or by the knowledge they receive from revelation from God, instead of simply what others have told them.

Or in other words, not only is God infallible, but those who God teaches are too, in all of those things they do learn from God as God teaches them (and us) of His truths.

If I'm not understanding you, Ray, I'm not alone. If all you are saying is that whenever God reveals a truth, the speaker of that truth is, at that moment, infallible, then your point applies to everyone--we're all prophets when we speak what God has revealed to us. However, to use the term "prophet" in such a way, seems to delude it of meaning--particular for LDS, since you believe in the office of prophet.

But some people who study to gain knowledge of God do not learn who God truly is¡| because instead of learning directly from God they learn only from people who think they know God, so in fact they have not learned the truth.

But that's between them and God. All we listeners can do is discern what is actually said, to see if it is of God or not.

And yes, as strange as it seems to sound to you, we should all be learning by instantaneous revelation from God, every day as we pray to seek knowledge, instead of only from others who truly do know Him, or from those who only think that they do.

Knowledge on fire, Ray. We need both--anointing to understand, and discipline to study. And, yes, I'm not simply referring to formalized classroom study. When you underline in your Scriptures, journal what God has revealed to you, when you use a concordance, a map, etc.--all these indicate study--which can surely be anointed of God as well.

It seems you didn’t understand me as I tried to reveal my thoughts in my words, because I was using the word ¡°theologian¡± to refer to someone with a college diploma who has simply learned what others have taught him and did not learn true knowledge from God.

What a negative, odd definition of theologian! A theologian is a student of God, plain and simple.

Would it be so strange to think that I was, by receiving my knowledge from God?

All members of His Church are or should be true prophets, and receive all their knowledge from God.

And I know we’ve discussed this in several other threads, though now you don’t seem to remember.

Ray, we should all receive anointing and discernment from the Holy Spirit, no doubt. But, your own church has the office of prophet. I would think you would be hesitant to so generalize the mean of prophecy, that all believers qualify. In a way, I like it though--very pentecostal of you. Joel 2:28-29 does say that in the last days God will pour out his spirit on all flesh, and young men will see visions, old men dream dreams, and both male and female servants would prophecy. Careful now...you'll get me to preachin'!

Or in other words, a college degree in theology is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God¡¯s prophets, the sooner we'll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God.

Ray, are you against formal studies? Do you think that the LDS Church's investment in FARMS, in BYU's religion department, etc. are a foolish trusting in the knowledge of men? I'm sure you don't. So, why the continued negativity about classroom study of God. Surely you know that God has given some to be teachers?

But the only way I knew and know that is true is by receiving that knowledge from God.

Ray, it can happen in the classroom! You can receive knowledge from God in the classroom, as godly teachers impart both their learnings, and methods/tools for individual study. Please tell me you're not anti-intellectual, Ray.

A KEY POINT IN THIS DISCUSSION: Then why does it seem you believe revelation from God is only contained in the Bible, as you were taught that from your teachers in college? If anyone can gain true knowledge from God, then those people are also true prophets¡| to the degree they obtain their true knowledge from God¡| and not simply by reading and believing other people who said they were prophets even if their words are contained in the Bible.

AND MY KEY RESPONSE: SIGH! Finally. This is why you keep talking this strange talk--accusing me of relying on the wisdom of men, not God, of coasting on my classroom studies, rather than seeking God, etc.--all these accusations absent any statements from me to lead you there. All this comes from the fact that I have not embraced Joseph Smith's revelations as being from God???

Ray, again, you're just wrong about this. Many people are sincere in their searches for God. I disagree with many religious scholars, but do not question their sincerity. I disagree with you, Ray. But, I believe you are a sincere God-seeker--not someone just chasing the 'wisdom of men.' Can't you give me the same benefit of the doubt?

You misunderstood me again there, Tommy, though you may think you do know what I meant, but I know my thoughts even better than you and I know you did not see what I meant¡| and instead of simply asking me to clear up my point, you made another assumption with accusations.

And to clear up this point for your benefit, I’ll try using some other good words, but to know what I mean you should try to understand that my words are imperfect reflections.

Anyone who understands the ways of this world knows a college diploma helps to get a ¡°good job¡±. But God does not care about that piece of paper, and we don¡¯t need it to gain knowledge from God.

Better now?

It is better. I sincerely hope, and want to believe that you did not mean to insinuate that my studies were of a "worldy" nature, and were engaged in so that I could get a good job in the world.

Ray, I know you gave up a Christian college education to follow the revelations of Joseph Smith. So, maybe there's this sensitive area that causes you to wax anti-college. I don't know. But there is no dichotamy between receiving knowledge from God and learning of God in a formal setting, taught by anointed instructors. You don't need a college education, be it at an Assemblies of God seminary, or at BYU--but praise God if he gives us the opportunity to partake. God can anoint classroom and group study as much as he can individual study.

Or in other words, ¡°lay people¡± can learn as much if not more from God than people who go to college to learn, because learning from others instead of learning from God may not give them true knowledge from God¡| so only by learning directly from God can we know when we and others know the truth.

Neither of us gamble, but there's an appropriate saying here. "The favorite doesn't always win, but it's still the best bet." College study does not always a wise Christian make, but if the opportunity is there, such dedication is still a sound spiritual route.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

we all are or should be God's true prophets... and aware there are "wolves in sheep's clothing".

Ray, didn't you recently make a big deal about leaving this board and us in darkness, and walking towards the light or something? What're you still doing here, arguing with us people who "won't hear?" Did someone forget to mail your coconut cake? I'll get right on it. :)

I'd guess I'm still here for the same reasons you are still here. I just get a little frustrated sometimes. :)

And btw, some other people still hang around where they once did work, even after they retire, because of some reasons that draw them back too... and yes I'd still like that coconut cake. :)

[cynyclsgirl]

WHO WILL INHERIT TELESTIAL GLORY

Those who: Reject the Gospel-ie the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints

Reject the Testimony of Jesus

Are Liars, sorcereres, adulterers, and whoremongers

WHO WILL INHERIT TERRESTRIAL GLORY

Those who:

Reject the Gospel in this life but recieve it in the spirit world

Are Honorable but are blinded by the craftiness of men

Are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus

WOW CAN WE INHERIT CELSTIAL GLORY

We must"

Receive the testimony of Jesus Christ

Be baptized by one with the Priesthood Authority ie: only LDS men

Keep the Commandments

Recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost

Overcome the world by Faith

Be made perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ

WHO ELSE WILL INHERIT CELESTIAL GLORY

Those who:

Die without a knowledge of the Gospel but "would have recieved it with all their hearts"

Die before they arrive at the years of accountability

Now as for considering President Gordon B Hinckley "holding office of prophet" your much mistaken, this Man of God was for ordained before his birth to this calling...

he's not a mere prophet to the "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints" he is the Prophet to the entire World.

If you can honestly say that you have rejected Joseph Smith then you deny any previous prophet that roamed the earth as in the Scriptures. can cannot pick and choose which prophets you prefer to believe

and to ignore the actual fact that Joseph Smith also was foreordained to this calling, and was chosen by Father in Heaven to Restore his Gospel upon the earth as it was in the Saviors day.

The Doctrine in the Church is Perfect, its completely restored. its the people who are not perfect. you can read the Book of Mormon a thousand times over and you will not ever find one teaching or doctrine wrong. just keep in mind that Lucifer will live the eternitys in misery and very much desires to do the same to the rest of us. if he can keep one soul from entering the Baptism covanants with Father in Heaven with HIS restored Gospel then he marvels in happiness.

just another reminder you can recieve revelations for yourself and only yourself, you do not hold the Priesthood at all. only and just only can LDS men who have been ordained on this earth to hold Heavenly Fathers Priesthood such as a living prophet speak. those that teach at BYU do not constitute "prophets" theres only one, and his 12 councilors

[Ray]

'Ray: …Perhaps you have learned some true knowledge from God, but you still have a whole lot to learn, and until you learn to accept ALL His words, either from Him or ALL of His prophets, you will not know all you still need to learn.

Tommy: The same could be said for all of us. We all have much to learn, and we need to accept all that God says to us. You believe you're ahead in this spiritual journey, because you've embraced Joseph Smith's teachings. If so, you know--to whom much is given, much is required.

At this point in my life, I've not received the same indications from my God. On the other hand, under his anointing I am making my way through Joseph Smith's writings. After I read and digest, I'll seek God's direction as to what I should take from them, and what of my learnings I should share at this forum.

That’s a good approach, but realizing that you still don’t know everything, even on specific issues, should make you cautious in stating your beliefs, unless you really know, by an actual assurance from God, that what you believe is really the truth, knowing God has given you His assurance of those truths.

Or in other words, and to give you a clue about how and why I sometimes get frustrated with you and other people who declare what I know is not true, I’m saying we should all be careful when stating our beliefs, such as the true nature of God, and His church, for examples, until we receive an actual assurance from God concerning the truth of those things specifically, line upon line and precept upon precept… otherwise we’re simply spouting what others have said to us as they’ve tried to teach us what they believe, while those who know God know the truth about some things and are trying to teach those who they know still don’t know it.

Ray: I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt by believing that you actually did not mean to misquote me, when I said they are infallible on some things, or by the knowledge they receive from revelation from God, instead of simply what others have told them.

Or in other words, not only is God infallible, but those who God teaches are too, in all of those things they do learn from God as God teaches them (and us) of His truths.

Tommy: If I'm not understanding you, Ray, I'm not alone. If all you are saying is that whenever God reveals a truth, the speaker of that truth is, at that moment, infallible, then your point applies to everyone--we're all prophets when we speak what God has revealed to us. However, to use the term "prophet" in such a way, seems to delude it of meaning--particular for LDS, since you believe in the office of prophet.

You do seem to almost understand my point now, but as I explained to you before, we (LDS) do not believe in the “office” of a prophet. Or in other words, the President of the Church is the “presiding” prophet over all of the Church, and also over all the other prophets in the world, because his appointment has come directly from our Lord, through others who were directly appointed by God. So, yes, every member of the Church should be a prophet, and every person on Earth should also be a prophet, by receiving their own knowledge from God… and as we gain knowledge from God we should all then be “one’ with God and God’s knowledge He has given us… and there is no good reason why anyone should have conflicting beliefs, since we can all gain our true knowledge from God.

Ray: But some people who study to gain knowledge of God do not learn who God truly is¡| because instead of learning directly from God they learn only from people who think they know God, so in fact they have not learned the truth.

Tommy: But that's between them and God. All we listeners can do is discern what is actually said, to see if it is of God or not.

Not quite. Yes, that is all we can do as listeners, but as people who share our knowledge or beliefs with other people I think we should be careful about what we are actually sharing with others… unless we really know what is true and have authority from our Lord to share our knowledge with others… otherwise every person who has their own ideas will flood the world with their ideas and beliefs… some of which are not based on truth…. which can cause confusion of monumental proportions.

Ray: And yes, as strange as it seems to sound to you, we should all be learning by instantaneous revelation from God, every day as we pray to seek knowledge, instead of only from others who truly do know Him, or from those who only think that they do.

Tommy: Knowledge on fire, Ray. We need both--anointing to understand, and discipline to study. And, yes, I'm not simply referring to formalized classroom study. When you underline in your Scriptures, journal what God has revealed to you, when you use a concordance, a map, etc.--all these indicate study--which can surely be anointed of God as well.

See, you seem to be drawing that line again, thinking that “thinking inspired by God” is only written in the Bible, when I can see God’s truth in every idea, whether written or spoken, when someone is sharing the truth and I hear it. While you seem to have a much more limited idea than I do about how God shares the truth with all of us.

Ray: It seems you didn’t understand me as I tried to reveal my thoughts in my words, because I was using the word ¡°theologian¡± to refer to someone with a college diploma who has simply learned what others have taught him and did not learn true knowledge from God.

Tommy: What a negative, odd definition of theologian! A theologian is a student of God, plain and simple.

I was using that definition to make a distinction between those who really know God by learning from God, rather than by learning from other people who know God or only think they know God… including people God has actually inspired with some true knowledge, because we can only know that when God personally assures us of those truths.

Was that idea really so hard for you to understand from what I said to you in my other words?

Ray: Would it be so strange to think that I was, by receiving my knowledge from God?

All members of His Church are or should be true prophets, and receive all their knowledge from God.

And I know we’ve discussed this in several other threads, though now you don’t seem to remember.

Tommy: Ray, we should all receive anointing and discernment from the Holy Spirit, no doubt. But, your own church has the office of prophet. I would think you would be hesitant to so generalize the mean of prophecy, that all believers qualify. In a way, I like it though--very pentecostal of you. Joel 2:28-29 does say that in the last days God will pour out his spirit on all flesh, and young men will see visions, old men dream dreams, and both male and female servants would prophecy. Careful now...you'll get me to preachin'!

I hope that now that I’ve cleared up that erroneous idea you had about us having the “office” of a prophet, you will see we agree even more that you thought we did before.

And to give you a little more information, I’ll tell you the “offices” of anyone who has priesthood in the Church:

The Aaronic priesthood, which includes the Levitical priesthood, has the offices of deacon, teacher, priest, bishop (also known as the high priest, or the president of the priests)

The Melchizedek priesthood, which is the highest order of authority, has the offices of elder, high priest, seventy, apostle, patriarch and president.

Ray: Or in other words, a college degree in theology is not needed or necessary to gain some true knowledge from God, and the sooner we start to get Faith from Him, without relying upon what we were taught by other people who taught and continue to teach us, unless they are also God’s prophets, the sooner we'll start to learn what is true by receiving our assurance from God.

Tommy: Ray, are you against formal studies? Do you think that the LDS Church's investment in FARMS, in BYU's religion department, etc. are a foolish trusting in the knowledge of men? I'm sure you don't. So, why the continued negativity about classroom study of God. Surely you know that God has given some to be teachers?

No, I’m not against “formal” studies, knowing that teachers can only present some information, while alos knowing that God is the only true teacher… as we all learn through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ray: But the only way I knew and know that is true is by receiving that knowledge from God.

Tommy: Ray, it can happen in the classroom! You can receive knowledge from God in the classroom, as godly teachers impart both their learnings, and methods/tools for individual study. Please tell me you're not anti-intellectual, Ray.

As I said before, I learn from God anytime and anywhere, either in books or the ideas shared by others, but all of that learning is not the work of the intellect, through reasoning alone, but as we learn or gain knowledge from God. So please tell me you're not against learning from God, knowing all truths are not contained in the Bible!

Ray: Then why does it seem you believe revelation from God is only contained in the Bible, as you were taught that from your teachers in college? If anyone can gain true knowledge from God, then those people are also true prophets¡| to the degree they obtain their true knowledge from God¡| and not simply by reading and believing other people who said they were prophets even if their words are contained in the Bible.

Tommy: SIGH! Finally. This is why you keep talking this strange talk--accusing me of relying on the wisdom of men, not God, of coasting on my classroom studies, rather than seeking God, etc.--all these accusations absent any statements from me to lead you there. All this comes from the fact that I have not embraced Joseph Smith's revelations as being from God???

Not quite. All of that comes from what I perceive to be the position you are taking when you respond with counter-arguments to the things that I tell you are true… which shows you’re not seeking your knowledge from God and are instead relying upon the understanding you already have… as you argue with me instead of seeking knowledge from God.

Or in other words, if you were to ask questions, like: “how can that be true in light of this… or that idea”, I would then be able to see that you’re at least giving some thought to the ideas I and other LDS are presenting to you, which I and other LDS know to be true, but since you don’t do that, and instead only come back with counter-arguments while making assertions stating something completely opposed to what I have told you, I can see you’re not seeking the truth. And it’s as clear as sunshine to anyone who can see what you say and what you are actually doing.

Tommy: Ray, again, you're just wrong about this. Many people are sincere in their searches for God. I disagree with many religious scholars, but do not question their sincerity. I disagree with you, Ray. But, I believe you are a sincere God-seeker--not someone just chasing the 'wisdom of men.' Can't you give me the same benefit of the doubt?

If you’ll start coming back with questions, instead of making counter-arguments and assertions which I know are not true, I’ll then give you the benefit of that doubt.

Ray: You misunderstood me again there, Tommy, though you may think you do know what I meant, but I know my thoughts even better than you and I know you did not see what I meant¡| and instead of simply asking me to clear up my point, you made another assumption with accusations.

And to clear up this point for your benefit, I’ll try using some other good words, but to know what I mean you should try to understand that my words are imperfect reflections.

Anyone who understands the ways of this world knows a college diploma helps to get a ¡°good job¡±. But God does not care about that piece of paper, and we don¡¯t need it to gain knowledge from God.

Better now?

Tommy: It is better. I sincerely hope, and want to believe that you did not mean to insinuate that my studies were of a "worldy" nature, and were engaged in so that I could get a good job in the world.

Heh, oh boy, you still don’t see what I’m saying, and at this point I won’t make any comment.

Tommy: Ray, I know you gave up a Christian college education to follow the revelations of Joseph Smith.

Just stop right there. You keep making statements like that, even after all that I’ve told you about how I learned how those revelations were and are true, so what are you really having trouble with understanding?

I didn’t simply follow “the revelations of Joseph Smith”, I followed God knowing He had spoken through Joseph.

Tommy: So, maybe there's this sensitive area that causes you to wax anti-college. I don't know. But there is no dichotamy between receiving knowledge from God and learning of God in a formal setting, taught by anointed instructors.

Okay, then explain to me how those instructors were anointed, and how you know they were anoninted? And if it has anything to do with the fact that they simply went to college to learn what they taught you, then you still don’t seem to get what I’m saying… because learning from God has nothing to do with going to college, and anyone who knows that can tell you. And btw, by saying your instructors were “anointed”, are you saying you consider them to be prophets of God? If so, why don’t they agree with other prophets?

You don't need a college education, be it at an Assemblies of God seminary, or at BYU--but praise God if he gives us the opportunity to partake. God can anoint classroom and group study as much as he can individual study.

I always praise God for inspiring me to know who He has anointed to be His prophets on Earth, because simply going to college to try to learn about God wouldn’t necessarily result in learning from God.

Ray: Or in other words, “lay people” can learn as much if not more from God than people who go to college to learn, because learning from others instead of learning from God may not give them true knowledge from God¡| so only by learning directly from God can we know when we and others know the truth.

Tommy: Neither of us gamble, but there's an appropriate saying here. "The favorite doesn't always win, but it's still the best bet." College study does not always a wise Christian make, but if the opportunity is there, such dedication is still a sound spiritual route.

Okay, let me put it like this. The only good thing about going to college, in my opinion, is the fact that a person can receive a piece of paper enabling them to get a “good job” in this world, because the fact that a person is exposed to so many ideas and is expected to learn what he or she is taught by their teachers may not result in them knowing the truth … unless they put their Faith in God knowing He will help teach them the truth.. and while that can be made even easier by having teachers who are also inspired to know the truth and teach the truths they were and are taught from God…. a person could also learn from God anytime and anywhere whether or not they ever went to a college.

And btw, I also believe a college is the counterfeit of a temple, which is the best place to gain the best knowledge from God.

Bottom line: We can all learn the truth but only by learning directly from God, and sharing how to learn from God is the best thing we can offer... as we all speak of gaining Faith from the true God....

... and each person who accepts everything God has revealed to them personally, without rejecting any truths as they are presented in ideas to them personally, will be worthy of the Celestial kingdom.

[Old Tex]

Quite often I'm challenged by LDS with the question: What do you think I have to do to be 'saved'? My answer--the answer most evangelicals see in the Bible--Admit you're a sinner, Believe in Jesus, Confess your sins. Inevitably, the response is, "Well, I've done all that, so I'm good to go, according to you, right?"

So, now let's go at the question in reverse. Here's my situation:

1. I've done the ABCs.

2. Although my faith group does not believe water baptism is a prerequisite of salvation, I have indeed received this ordinance, by full immersion.

3. I've received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the laying on of hands.

4. For the sake of this discussion, assume I'm sincere in all these things, and that I am in an on-going relationship with the Master, including regular prayer, Bible study, church fellowship, full-tithe support, donations for missions projects, and that I respond positively and eagerly to any calls I receive from my church.

5. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I stay true, and 'endure to the end,' in my testimony, faith and practice.

So--am I good to go? Will I likely gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Perhaps it can most easily be demonstrated by saying that to get to the Celestial Kingdom there are 10 "steps" and that you have listed 5 of them above.

The first 5 will certainly get you to a kingdom of Glory, but it won't be the Celestial Kingdom. It will take all 10 "steps" to get there, no matter if you are LDS or not. A lot of LDS are not going to make all 10 either. Some of these "steps" will involve the Temple.

Old Tex

[prisonchaplain]

WOW–Ray and I just produced a six-page post. I’m going to try to trim it down significantly, so we can address the major issues.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: We need to accept all God’s words and all God’s prophets.

I take that to mean I should embrace Joseph Smith’s revelations and join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This is Ray’s bottom-line ascertion–it’s what he’s been hinting at in all these posts. It is that knowledge he still wants me to learn from him.

Am I at long last comprehending you, Ray?

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: If I would just get my knowledge directly from God, I would have His truth–the truth.

I take that to mean I should quit relying on sermons, studies, commentaries, Bible helps, etc. from unrestored sources, and turn to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and its official organs, since it has the prophetic word of God in these latter days.

Again, how’s my reading comprehension doing?

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: Other Christians may have some truth, but other people have more/all the truth.

I take that to mean that if I want full and restored truth, I need to get your information from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Am I reading you loud and clear, yet?

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: LDS do not have “the office of prophet” they have a presiding prophet–that all LDS should be prophets, speaking God’s true words.

I get the point, but believe most LDS would consider the President of the Church to be a living prophet, and would have no difficulty seeing that role as fulfilling an “office of prophet.” Beyond that, I agree that all Christians can speak prophetic, that some have received a gift of prophecy. Where I differ, of course, is that I have experienced such prophecies in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles–and testify that they were absolutely of God. You might affirm they have “some good” etc., but in reality, if they spoke God’s words, then they gave me God’s direction for me, and thus fulfilled His perfect will.

I UNDERSTAND RAYTO SAY: There is as much truth from God amongst laypeople–yay, more truth–from those who truly hear from God, then there is from learned men who merely speak their own opinions.

Ray, I think what you’re getting at is that non-LDS don’t know God’s full truths, and so are not reliable sources of knowledge about God, no matter how educated they are. Have I read you correctly?

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: There’s more ways to hear from God than just reading the Bible.

What you seem to mean is that I should look to the other Mormon Scriptures, listen to God’s true prophets via his restored Church. Is this your meaning?

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: Formal religious studies, even from official Church institutions, is of limited value. Far better to learn directly from God.

Most LDS seem proud of the high level of education within in the movement, and to be especially proud of BYU, FARMS, and the rigorous seminary training that young people go through. Ray, you almost sound like a Charismatic-Mormon. I get your bottom-line, but do not understand you seeming anti-intellectualism. Yes, hear from God–but yes, study his word too!

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: I seem to not a true seeker, because I offer counter points rather than asking sincere questions to his absolute truth statements.

Ray, perhaps if you understand that I am attempting to carry on a conversation with you, on equal footing, rather than sit at your feet and soak in your greatly superior knowledge, you would either ‘work with me’ or give up on me–not sure which.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: He follows God, not Joseph Smith. However, he listens/reads Smith, because God speaks through him.

Ray, you KNOW this, and I don’t. If I say during these conversations that Smith’s revelations are God’s words, spoken through Smith, then I’m no better than those evangelicals that occasionally come here listing their religion as LDS, and then who later spring anti-Mormonisms on the forum. You ought to take my nuetral responses as sincerity, rather than continuing to insist that I don’t get it, because I won’t affirm that which has not been revealed to me.

THIS ONE IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM RAY: College is a counterfeit of a temple, which is the best place to gain the best knowledge from God.

I will leave it to others to comment on the notion that Brigham Young University is a counterfeit temple. WOW!

[Ray]

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: We need to accept all God’s words and all God’s prophets.

I take that to mean I should embrace Joseph Smith’s revelations and join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This is Ray’s bottom-line ascertion–it’s what he’s been hinting at in all these posts. It is that knowledge he still wants me to learn from him.

Am I at long last comprehending you, Ray?

Almost. I want you to learn all of the truth that is now available on this Earth from God, beginning with the "standard" works... which to you right now seems to be only the words in the Bible, and I know there is a whole lot more available.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: If I would just get my knowledge directly from God, I would have His truth–the truth.

I take that to mean I should quit relying on sermons, studies, commentaries, Bible helps, etc. from unrestored sources, and turn to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and its official organs, since it has the prophetic word of God in these latter days.

Again, how’s my reading comprehension doing?

Almost. I want you to rely on only God, by learning directly from God through Faith, or the assurances He can and will give you as you sincerely seek to know the truth. And once God does assure you of more truths than you currently accept right now, you will know what to do with that knowledge.

Or in other words, I’m not asking you to rely on the teachings of this Church. I’m asking you to rely on God, as God assures you of the truth in any information or ideas you happen to come across. And now that you've come across some information from and about God in this Church, I'm asking you to ask God about all of this information and rely on the assurances He will give you so you can then know more truths than you know right now from and about God and this church.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: Other Christians may have some truth, but other people have more/all the truth.

I take that to mean that if I want full and restored truth, I need to get your information from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Am I reading you loud and clear, yet?

Almost. I’m not asking you to get “my” information from and about this Church, but I would like you to know the truth that is in this Church, so that once you know the truth concerning what the Church actually teaches, from the “authorities” in this Church, trying to make sure you interpret them correctly, and you then seek your assurances from God about those teachings to make sure you know the truth about what this Church is actually teaching, and has taught, you will then come to know more truth about God and this Church as God assures you of the truth that is in this Church.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: LDS do not have “the office of prophet” they have a presiding prophet–that all LDS should be prophets, speaking God’s true words.

I get the point, but believe most LDS would consider the President of the Church to be a living prophet, and would have no difficulty seeing that role as fulfilling an “office of prophet.” Beyond that, I agree that all Christians can speak prophetic, that some have received a gift of prophecy. Where I differ, of course, is that I have experienced such prophecies in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles–and testify that they were absolutely of God. You might affirm they have “some good” etc., but in reality, if they spoke God’s words, then they gave me God’s direction for me, and thus fulfilled His perfect will.

Why would you say that some prophets of God have fulfilled God’s perfect will by simply sharing some of the truths they know? While some truths may help you get closer to God, only all truth will help you get closest... and this Church has a lot more truth than you know.

I UNDERSTAND RAYTO SAY: There is as much truth from God amongst laypeople–yay, more truth–from those who truly hear from God, then there is from learned men who merely speak their own opinions.

Ray, I think what you’re getting at is that non-LDS don’t know God’s full truths, and so are not reliable sources of <ALL> knowledge <that is now available from and> about God, no matter how educated they are. Have I read you correctly?

Almost, and I inserted a few words to try to help you understand me.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: There’s more ways to hear from God than just reading the Bible.

What you seem to mean is that I should look to the other Mormon Scriptures, listen to God’s true prophets via his restored Church. Is this your meaning?

Almost. I mean you should be open to all information until you learn the truth from God.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: Formal religious studies, even from official Church institutions, is of limited value. Far better to learn directly from God.

Most LDS seem proud of the high level of education within in the movement, and to be especially proud of BYU, FARMS, and the rigorous seminary training that young people go through. Ray, you almost sound like a Charismatic-Mormon. I get your bottom-line, but do not understand you seeming anti-intellectualism. Yes, hear from God–but yes, study his word too!

But you can't know which words are inspired by God without receiving God’s assurance on those truths.

Or in other words, simply reading and absorbing the information in some books will not help you to truly know about God…. unless God gives you His assurance that that information was inspired by Him, and as you continue to learn more about God from God and the people who He inspires.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: I seem to not be a true seeker, because I offer counter points rather than asking sincere questions to his absolute truth statements.

Ray, perhaps if you understand that I am attempting to carry on a conversation with you, on equal footing, rather than sit at your feet and soak in your greatly superior knowledge, you would either ‘work with me’ or give up on me–not sure which.

As you can see, I am trying to work with you, even though it seems to me that you are really not learning or even trying to really learn from God or from me as I try to share my knowledge of God with you.

And btw, we are not on equal footing, because we both do not agree with each other, and I’m not going to believe what you are trying to tell me unless I can get an assurance from God about what you are telling me... which ain't gonna happen on at least some of the things you tell me because some of the things you tell me are directly opposed to many things I have learned from God.

I UNDERSTAND RAY TO SAY: He follows God, not Joseph Smith. However, he listens/reads Smith, because God speaks through him.

Ray, you KNOW this, and I don’t. If I say during these conversations that Smith’s revelations are God’s words, spoken through Smith, then I’m no better than those evangelicals that occasionally come here listing their religion as LDS, and then who later spring anti-Mormonisms on the forum. You ought to take my neutral responses as sincerity, rather than continuing to insist that I don’t get it, because I won’t affirm that which has not been revealed to me.

But your responses weren’t neutral, Tommy, because you were proclaiming your view on positions that were and are opposed to what I have learned from God.

THIS ONE IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM RAY: College is a counterfeit of a temple, which is the best place to gain the best knowledge from God.

I will leave it to others to comment on the notion that Brigham Young University is a counterfeit temple. WOW!

I gave you this before, but maybe this time you’ll read it, while trying to understand what he was saying or what he was actually trying to say… and he actually worked for BYU, and he was a very good scholar, and also a prophet of God.

And btw, please also try to make sure that you interpret him correctly, by seeking an assurance from God.

... hmm, for some reason it won't upload this time, but you can find it on the internet, by searching for Hugh Nibley's talk entitled "Leaders to Managers, the Fatal Shift".

[Old Tex]

Perhaps it can most easily be demonstrated by saying that to get to the Celestial Kingdom there are 10 "steps" and that you have listed 5 of them above.

The first 5 will certainly get you to a kingdom of Glory, but it won't be the Celestial Kingdom. It will take all 10 "steps" to get there, no matter if you are LDS or not. A lot of LDS are not going to make all 10 either. Some of these "steps" will involve the Temple.

Old Tex

OOPS! Looks like I had the misfortune to post in the middle of a private gun fight. I hadn't read far enough into the thread before I posted. I just came over to sign up from the religion section in the Hannity Boards. There is too much arguing going on there for me and I was told that it's much quieter here. Pardon me for interrupting. I'm going back to Hannity. I'll try again when Ray gets his cocoanut cake and is in a better mood.

Old Tex

[Ray]

Heh, you can come back now Tex. There's nothing wrong with my mood. :)

[Old Tex]

Heh, you can come back now Tex. There's nothing wrong with my mood. :)

Well, OK. But have you holstered you gun and taken your medication? I can go back to Hannity for a few days if you want.

Old Tex

[shanstress70]

If you can honestly say that you have rejected Joseph Smith then you deny any previous prophet that roamed the earth as in the Scriptures. can cannot pick and choose which prophets you prefer to believe

and to ignore the actual fact that Joseph Smith also was foreordained to this calling, and was chosen by Father in Heaven to Restore his Gospel upon the earth as it was in the Saviors day.

Does this mean we cannot reject David Koresh, or any of the other countless people who claim to be prophets? You forget, for those of us who don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, there is no difference as to his credibility.

[cynyclsgirl]

Does this mean we cannot reject David Koresh, or any of the other countless people who claim to be prophets? You forget, for those of us who don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, there is no difference as to his credibility.

David Koresh never claimed to be a prophet he professed to be the Savior himself.

no one has ever claimed to be a living prophet on this earth, except that of Joseph Smith himself.

by there fruits you shall know them

there have been countless of other people who have lead groups of people and taught from there own learning mingled with scriptures but as of date they have all fallen. there churchs have crumbled, for God will not be mocked!

my church The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, is only going to grow larger and larger, for Heavenly Father will not allow his gospel to be mocked and that of Joseph Smiths name. at the Library of Congress in Washington DC. there are more books written about Joseph Smith than any other human being on this planet so your point is moot to state there is no credibilty to what he has done for this world,

I dont believe for a moment that Joseph Smith jumped up and down and screamed 'Pick me" to restore the Saviors church. he was told by Heavenly Father himself

what if you were to start writing in a journal today and did it for the remainder of your life and two three generations passed and your GGGgrandkid is reading your words and says "this is filled with falsehoods" though you penned those words yourself, you knew you did, so if so many books have been writtten about J.Smith how can one mock his credbility?

actually have you takened the time to get on your knee's to actually ask Heavenly Father about Joseph Smith? or do you simply rely on your neighbors wisdom.

[shanstress70]

no one has ever claimed to be a living prophet on this earth, except that of Joseph Smith himself.

Where in the world do you get your info? Can I see a source for this please?

at the Library of Congress in Washington DC. there are more books written about Joseph Smith than any other human being on this planet so your point is moot to state there is no credibilty to what he has done for this world,

Once again, source please.

actually have you takened the time to get on your knee's to actually ask Heavenly Father about Joseph Smith? or do you simply rely on your neighbors wisdom.

No, I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.

[Ray]

I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

<div class='quotemain'>

Heh, you can come back now Tex. There's nothing wrong with my mood. :)

Well, OK. But have you holstered you gun and taken your medication? I can go back to Hannity for a few days if you want.

Old Tex

Yeah. I think I shot the last of the infidels, so it is now safe for you to come back. :)

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

And I say the same about you, Ray.

[prisonchaplain]

no one has ever claimed to be a living prophet on this earth, except that of Joseph Smith himself.

by there fruits you shall know them

there have been countless of other people who have lead groups of people and taught from there own learning mingled with scriptures but as of date they have all fallen. there churchs have crumbled, for God will not be mocked!

Perhaps Koresh was a poor choice. How about the Prophet Muhammed? He claimed to see personages in a cave, he developed "a religion of peace." His disciples brought advances in education and society, and the religious movement has not faltered--it has grown tremendously.

How about Moon Sun Myung? The Unification Church doesn't get much press these days, but it continues to survive and prosper in pockets of the world. Like the LDS Church, this movement has invested in some industries, it has international cultural exchanges, and also has contributed to political thought.

Both of these movements have some "good fruit." We might point the finger at a few rebels who use their name, but they've done some good things.

So, how would we judge them? Yes, by their fruit--but not only their secular fruit. What theologies have they produced? How have they enhanced our understanding of God and Jesus? Do their teachings comply with known Scriptures?

I don't for a moment want to discount some of the very positive contributions the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints has produced, both in terms of gifted members and direct physical giftings to the greater world--especially in the United States. However, many religious movements have done so. So the mantra, "judge them by their fruits" needs to be taken very broadly--to include doctrine.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

And I say the same about you, Ray.

Heh, yes, I know you do.

And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :)

So maybe now that we know this about each other, we can become better friends?

So the mantra, "judge them by their fruits" needs to be taken very broadly--to include doctrine.

Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???

[prisonchaplain]

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

Ray, are you saying that Shantress has been deceived by Satan???

And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :)

An ancient chaplaincy proverb goes: Beware those who self-describe the assistance they offer as quote-unquote help.

So the mantra, "judge them by their fruits" needs to be taken very broadly--to include doctrine.

Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???

Ray, you've all but accused Shantress of being demonized, and then imply that I'm being contentious to invoke a scriptural admonition???

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

Ray, are you saying that Shantress has been deceived by Satan???

And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :)

An ancient chaplaincy proverb goes: Beware those who self-describe the assistance they offer as quote-unquote help.

Yes, he does this quite often. (Look, it's me and Ray on the see-saw!) But which is which... THAT is the question!

[Ray]

Ray: I hate to break it to you, (<Shannon, darling,>) but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

Tommy: Ray, are you saying that Shantress has been deceived by Satan???

Of course I am, and she thinks Satan deceived me. Didn't you read those words we exchanged?

Ray: And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :)

Tommy: An ancient chaplaincy proverb goes: Beware those who self-describe the assistance they offer as quote-unquote help.

Yes. Be aware. Be very very aware.

I think some people very seriously underestimate the power Satan has to deceive us.

Tommy: So the mantra, "judge them by their fruits" needs to be taken very broadly--to include doctrine.

Ray: Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???

Tommy: Ray, you've all but accused Shantress of being demonized, and then imply that I'm being contentious to invoke a scriptural admonition???

Yeah. So. Do you have a problem with that?

But I suppose you think you're contending for the faith that was "once" delivered to the saints. :)

[shanstress70]

Ray: I hate to break it to you, (<Shannon, darling,>) but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.

Tommy: Ray, are you saying that Shantress has been deceived by Satan???

Of course I am, and she thinks Satan deceived me. Didn't you read those words we exchanged?

The difference between us though is my ' ', which I put in there to mean I'm joking around. I don't believe you are correct with this Joesph Smith stuff, but I don't believe it's Satan who is leading you to believe it... I think you are doing the best you can and it makes sense to you. I'm doing the best I can as well. I think I'm the correct one, obviously, or I would still be LDS.

My personal belief is that God will be pleased with both of us for sticking to our guns and doing what we believe He has told us is right. I do believe that Ray does things that God would not be very pleased with (ie acting as though he knows it all, and degrades those who don't think like him), but I think He will forgive Ray for that because He loves Ray. And yes, there are plenty of things I do that God will forgive me for bc He loves me!

I also believe that about people who do good things and are good people in the name of other gods or religions, or even no religion. They are doing the best they can. This is where I differ with most Christians. I respect other peoples' beliefs, even if I don't believe them to be correct. God is the one who will have to deal with all that. I believe He will do so with great mercy and love, bc that's the kind of God I believe He is!

[prisonchaplain]

B)

Of course I am, and she thinks Satan deceived me. Didn't you read those words we exchanged?

Okay, I'll break this down:

RAY: Shantress is demonized!

Shantress: If you think I'm demonized, Ray, maybe that devil is in your head, not mine.

Ray: Well, if you say that then we're both equally offensive.

All I can say is,

Yes. Be aware. Be very very aware.I think some people very seriously underestimate the power Satan has to deceive us.

Memo to Ray: Some people are wrong, others are mistaken, and a few are actually demonized. I hope you're not actually suggesting that the 99.4% of Christians who are not LDS are all demonized, while your 0.6% are spiritually clean???

Ray: Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???

I'm not the one claiming that all those who disagree with me are demonized

Yeah. So. Do you have a problem with that?

Do I have a problem with you saying Shantress is demonized and that I am contentious, because I suggested that we judge religious movements by both practical and doctrinal fruits? No, no problem. You're just wrong, that's all. B)

But I suppose you think you're contending for the faith that was "once" delivered to the saints. :)

I know this, Ray. I have a personal testimony from the Holy Spirit about this. And, my spiritual discernment is trustworthy enough, that I'm convinced the confirmation is from the Holy Ghost, not Satan. And before you answer with what you think you know, be careful. That's spiritually thin ice to be skating on.