Entry Into The Celestial Kingdom

Ray · June 8, 2006

Heh, are you trying to suggest the idea that the ice you are skating on is not as thin as mine? And that your ice is thicker than mine because you really know the truth about God, from God Himself?

I know what I know, Tommy, because God has assured me of those truths. And what I know does not agree with some of what you say you know, or with some of what you think you know, or with some of what you believe you know, or with some of what you feel so sure about because that you say or think or believe God has assured you of what you say and think and believe you know to be true. (I think that covers everything, doesn’t it?)

So the bottom line is that only one of us, if any of us among the two of us, has really received our assurance from God, and the other one of us is only saying or thinking or believing his assurance has come from God, when in fact his assurance has actually come from Satan or himself or another person or persons who he is relying on as someone who has told him the truth… because we both do not agree with each other, on certain issues, and God always agrees with God.

Right? Or do you not know God well enough to know that God is “one” in agreement with the truth?

It’s not rocket science, folks. When people have beliefs about God that conflict with the beliefs other people have about God, one of those groups of people does not know the truth about God, if any of them know about God.

And I am so sure that I truly know God, as well as I do, that I’d die to seal my testimony.

And yeah. I know. You are too. So we’ll just have to wait for God to judge us. Right?

And No, I'm not going to play “Chicken” with you on this, because I would change my position if I really knew you know the truth... after receiving my assurance from God... which I have already recieved and continue to receive as I seek to know ALL truth.

And btw, I never said anyone was "demonized", unless you're referring to the fact that there are demons (or deceitful spirits) around all of us trying to get us to believe things that aren't true, with some of us believing them.

I do believe that Ray does things that God would not be very pleased with (ie acting as though he knows it all, and degrades those who don't think like him

Misrepresentation. Libel. Anyone know a good lawyer somewhere around here?

I know what I know, Shannon. I never have claimed to know everything.

And I do not put people down when I tell them I know them that what they are saying is not true, because those people have put themselves down to say and believe something that is not true, and I am only trying to help them get up.

Try to understand those facts and you'll then know me a little bit better. :)

And btw, God will judge all of us based on what we knew and could have known to be true by getting our assurance of truth from Him, so if you totally reject some truths you heard and could have known to be true by simply receiving an assurance from God, but instead chose to totally reject those truths because you didn’t seek faith from God to know the truth on those issues, then God will not give you the blessings you could have received if you had simply sought your assurance from Him.

And I have warned and forewarned you several times, Shannon, because I'm trying to help you get up. :)

shanstress70 · June 9, 2006

Heh, are you trying to suggest the idea that the ice you are skating on is not as thin as mine? And that your ice is thicker than mine because you really know the truth about God, from God Himself?
I know what I know, Tommy, because God has assured me of those truths. And what I know does not agree with some of what you say you know, or with some of what you think you know, or with some of what you believe you know, or with some of what you feel so sure about because that you say or think or believe God has assured you of what you say and think and believe you know to be true. (I think that covers everything, doesn’t it?)
So the bottom line is that only one of us, if any of us among the two of us, has really received our assurance from God, and the other one of us is only saying or thinking or believing his assurance has come from God, when in fact his assurance has actually come from Satan or himself or another person or persons who he is relying on as someone who has told him the truth… because we both do not agree with each other, on certain issues, and God always agrees with God.
Right? Or do you not know God well enough to know that God is “one” in agreement with the truth?
It’s not rocket science, folks. When people have beliefs about God that conflict with the beliefs other people have about God, one of those groups of people does not know the truth about God, if any of them know about God.
And I am so sure that I truly know God, as well as I do, that I’d die to seal my testimony.
And yeah. I know. You are too. So we’ll just have to wait for God to judge us. Right?
And No, I'm not going to play “Chicken” with you on this, because I would change my position if I really knew you know the truth... after receiving my assurance from God... which I have already recieved and continue to receive as I seek to know ALL truth.
And btw, I never said anyone was "demonized", unless you're referring to the fact that there are demons (or deceitful spirits) around all of us trying to get us to believe things that aren't true, with some of us believing them.
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I do believe that Ray does things that God would not be very pleased with (ie acting as though he knows it all, and degrades those who don't think like him

Misrepresentation. Libel. Anyone know a good lawyer somewhere around here?

I know what I know, Shannon. I never have claimed to know everything.

And I do not put people down when I tell them I know them that what they are saying is not true, because those people have put themselves down to say and believe something that is not true, and I am only trying to help them get up.

Try to understand those facts and you'll then know me a little bit better. :)

And btw, God will judge all of us based on what we knew and could have known to be true by getting our assurance of truth from Him, so if you totally reject some truths you heard and could have known to be true by simply receiving an assurance from God, but instead chose to totally reject those truths because you didn’t seek faith from God to know the truth on those issues, then God will not give you the blessings you could have received if you had simply sought your assurance from Him.

And I have warned and forewarned you several times, Shannon, because I'm trying to help you get up. :)

Ray, Ray, Ray, Ray, Ray, Ray....

I will change my mind when God tells me to. For now, He has confirmed to me what I believe to be true.

I do somewhat understand your position, that you want everyone else to know what you believe, because you believe they are fact. And I actually think that's somewhat admirable that you care so much (although sometimes a pain in the...). But I believe that the beliefs I hold are true... everyone does, or they wouldn't believe them.

We've been around and around about this how many times? Gotta be about 25 or so. Lets try to respect each other's beliefs. I think that's what God would want.

prisonchaplain · June 9, 2006

Lets try to respect each other's beliefs. I think that's what God would want.

I'm a lot more easy-going than Shantress70. I'd just settle for us respecting each other as persons. Folk may think my opinions are ridiculous, unworthy of discussion, the product of unregistered pharmaceuticals, or whatever. But, when we degenerate to assessing the # of demons possessing one another--via the internet mind you!!!--it's just way over the top (or under the belt) posting, imho.

shanstress70 · June 9, 2006

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Lets try to respect each other's beliefs. I think that's what God would want.

I'm a lot more easy-going than Shantress70. I'd just settle for us respecting each other as persons. Folk may think my opinions are ridiculous, unworthy of discussion, the product of unregistered pharmaceuticals, or whatever. But, when we degenerate to assessing the # of demons possessing one another--via the internet mind you!!!--it's just way over the top (or under the belt) posting, imho.

Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Ray · June 9, 2006

Lets try to respect each other's beliefs. I think that's what God would want.

I disagree, Shannon. Yes, we should try to respect each other as people, knowing we were all children of God, but No, we should not respect false beliefs, or beliefs we know are not true.

Or in other words, I believe God wants all of us to know the truth, about God and other people and things, instead of what others choose to believe when we know those beliefs are not true… because if some of us have and share false beliefs we will not hear the truth on those things, about God and other people and things.

And while I do know that I can’t convince anyone else I know the truth about the things that I say I know, because many other people also say they know things as they believe and share opposing beliefs, I still believe I can help other people to know what is true by sharing what I know about HOW to learn… and the only way any of us can truly know the truth is by getting our assurances from God.

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Lets try to respect each other's beliefs. I think that's what God would want.

I'm a lot more easy-going than Shantress70. I'd just settle for us respecting each other as persons. Folk may think my opinions are ridiculous, unworthy of discussion, the product of unregistered pharmaceuticals, or whatever. But, when we degenerate to assessing the # of demons possessing one another--via the internet mind you!!!--it's just way over the top (or under the belt) posting, imho.

Tommy,

Once again you are misrepresenting me, whether you actually intend to or not, and while you are doing that you are being deceitful, whether you actually intend to be or not.

And to try once again to clear up this error that you continue to present to other people, I’ll try to explain what I actually meant which you think is the work of some “demons”.

Try to understand that being deceitful and being deceived are directly related to each other, with someone who is “deceitful” being someone who is “deceiving” someone else who accepts what they tell them is true when what they are saying is not true and they then become known as "deceived".

Is that crystal clear to you now? I never used the word “demon” to describe anybody. I simply said some people are deceived by the deceitful.

And just in case that’s not clear to you yet, I’ll illustrate with an actual example, while hoping you’ll see that people know the truth or they are simply deceived.

The example:

I have stated and will continue to state plainly that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is a record of people who lived anciently somewhere on the American continents who wrote what they were inspired to write through the power of the Holy Ghost. And I have also stated that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church of God upon the face of this Earth with actual authority from God to share the gospel with others. And I have also stated many other things I know are true, and I will continue to share my beliefs... and as I do so I am either deceived or I actually do know these truths.

Or in other words, I am someone who is either deceived and being deceitful, (or someone you have essentially called a demon), or I am someone who knows these truths as I am sharing these truths with others, which I suppose you would call a saint.

And there is no middle ground here, Tommy. I either know these truths or I am deceived. And it is you who seems to say that those who are deceived and being deceitful are what you would call a “demon.”

And as others have said before, we can know a person by their fruits and their clothing, and some who are EVIL have a pleasant appearance or seem nice or have “smiling eyes”.

That we all may learn from God, without being deceived, is my prayer in the name of my Lord.

Ray · June 9, 2006

Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

shanstress70 · June 9, 2006

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Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

How is that, Ray?

Maureen · June 9, 2006

Tommy: Ray, you've all but accused Shantress of being demonized, and then imply that I'm being contentious to invoke a scriptural admonition???
Yeah. So. Do you have a problem with that?

Ray, you don't seem to be denying your accusation to Shantress here. But then you change your mind in another post and say you haven't accused Shantress of being demonized. You can't have it both ways - which is it?

M.

Ray · June 9, 2006

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Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

How is that, Ray?

Your picture is worth more than my words.

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Tommy: Ray, you've all but accused Shantress of being demonized, and then imply that I'm being contentious to invoke a scriptural admonition???
Yeah. So. Do you have a problem with that?

Ray, you don't seem to be denying your accusation to Shantress here. But then you change your mind in another post and say you haven't accused Shantress of being demonized. You can't have it both ways - which is it?

I understood the “gist” of what Tommy was saying in the post you just quoted above, but I did not use the word “demonized” to explain what I meant, unless it agrees with what I said about how certain people are deceived, if those people are what he called “demonized”.

shanstress70 · June 9, 2006

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Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

How is that, Ray?

Your picture is worth more than my words.

I was assuming the whole time that you were kidding, but I see that I'm dealing with someone far more sinister here. You're actually helping to make your own point... that you are a self-righteous, judgemental bigot. Whatever you think will make your god happy, I suppose!

Ray · June 9, 2006

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Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

How is that, Ray?

Your picture is worth more than my words.

I was assuming the whole time that you were kidding, but I see that I'm dealing with someone far more sinister here. You're actually helping to make your own point... that you are a self-righteous, judgemental bigot. Whatever you think will make your god happy, I suppose!

Shannon,

Take a look at your own words above. Would a "Christian" say something like that to someone else?

And that picture you used was a picture you chose to use, not something that I made you do.

You always accuse me of being the "bad" guy, and I'm simply saying you are deceived... and being "deceived" is not bad, if you'll learn what is true, instead of sharing what I know is not true and what I've told you isn't true, to try to give you some better information to think with.

cynyclsgirl · June 9, 2006

actually have you takened the time to get on your knee's to actually ask Heavenly Father about Joseph Smith? or do you simply rely on your neighbors wisdom.

No, I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.

I have been viewing the comments here for quite a while and I wanted to comment on your comment Shanstress when you mentioned that you were a member of the church for several years, when you got serious about asking God he gave you the message to move on?

you seem to appear as someone who only will reply on "Proof" asking for "sources" Im sorry that you found refuge from "sources" that were not from God himself. for God would not lead his followers onto what you would consider "greener pastures" after finding the restored gospel. its lucifers desire to confuse you once again. it seems its him who has earned another check mark on his score board.

so I can only muster up the thought that you are on LDS Talk for a reason, either you are trying to convince yourself and those like Prisonchaplin, Maureen who claim another religion but seem to find themselves leaving posts on a website for LDS. why? is there not any other worthy forums to chat about there own "religion" with those that profess or share there own beliefs, your wasting your time muddling around with those that have a strong knowledge of Joseph Smith and Testimony of the true restored gospel of Jesus Christ. or is it your mission to convert us back to your weak testimony, and have us be miserable like that of Lucifer, Im sure that those that submit posts that are not of the LDS faith only read to find more negative opinions or lack of a testimony to share with there friends. Im sorry that you were not born during Joseph Smiths day so that you could actually seek the proof and sources that you seem to need badly to affirm your beliefs

The Gospel plan is very simple to the core, very understandable.

I like Rays comments he's level headed and to the point. you can never walk away from the church, Heavenly Father knows you were baptized, he will not dismiss it as you have. you will be held accountable for having the truth, accepting it, whither you continue on in its journey or walk away. but if the church does bother you so, why continue to waste your precious time at this website?

all other churchs on this earth have a degree of the truth, but not as completely as the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. the priesthood was restored. because of Joseph Smith the people of this world no longer has to walk in darkness.

Just like a staircase lucifers at the bottom step, and as you take steps up you learn precept by precept, Heavenly Father leads you to another church with more truths, and as you progress, he leads you to even more truth, when those people have grown in knowledge he prepares his spirit children to recieve the complete truth which leaves the LDS only on the top step, you cannot progress any further or higher, you have arrived. if you feel that you have taken a step back down, thats your doing.

I dont like seeing the nonsense from those that list there religion as "Christian" they are still seeking some knowledge they dont wish to list any other actual or claim membership to another church.

some advice- call your existing R.S. pres and chat with her. continue to read the Ensign, if you dont have one subscribe at the LDS.org site.

Ray · June 9, 2006

Thank you for your support, cynyclsgirl. I will consider you to be my "second witness" to the things I have said, in accordance with God's law of witnesses, and now that we've shared what we know to be true, it is now up to others to either embrace or reject our testimony when they stand before God to be judged.

How some people can believe and say that all beliefs are as valid or respectable as true beliefs is still very hard for me to understand, but I know they believe and do what they've been led to believe and do, and I know someday we'll all get what God will give us to understand.

Maureen · June 9, 2006

dear cynyclsgirl,

It appears you are a new poster here - a new guest at LDStalk. So far, from your posts I'm getting the impression your mother failed to teach you manners, or if she did, they didn't take. This may be an LDS message board, but all are welcome if they agree to play nice. I think a little wrestling is okay, as long as no one gets hurt. So just in case you find it difficult to play with non-LDS and don't understand why you should be nice to all people, let me give you some advice.

This board is diverse and many play here. We discuss and sometimes argue a variety of thoughts and ideas, but we usually do it with respect for each other. There's been a few that have come here and think they can get away with not playing nice because they think that being LDS makes them exempt from following the rules, but that's not the case. All guests must play nice, especially the newbies because nobody likes a smartie-pants.

So play nice and welcome to LDStalk.

M.

shanstress70 · June 9, 2006

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Yes, that was a very low blow, but what I've come to expect from 'said poster'.

Thank you, Shannon. That actually helped to make my point. :)

How is that, Ray?

Your picture is worth more than my words.

I was assuming the whole time that you were kidding, but I see that I'm dealing with someone far more sinister here. You're actually helping to make your own point... that you are a self-righteous, judgemental bigot. Whatever you think will make your god happy, I suppose!

Shannon,

Take a look at your own words above. Would a "Christian" say something like that to someone else?

I guess so, because this one just did!

You are self-righteous, if I've ever seen it. And you are a bigot, with the definition I'm referring to being, 'prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own'.

shanstress70 · June 10, 2006

you seem to appear as someone who only will reply on "Proof" asking for "sources"

Um, no. If that was the case, I wouldn't be a Christian, now would I?

shanstress70 · June 10, 2006

you can never walk away from the church, Heavenly Father knows you were baptized, he will not dismiss it as you have. you will be held accountable for having the truth, accepting it, whither you continue on in its journey or walk away. but if the church does bother you so, why continue to waste your precious time at this website?

Our beliefs about truth differ quite a bit, cynyclsgirl. Lets agree to disagree about Joseph Smith being a prophet, OK?

FYI, the reason why I continue to post here is bc it's a great community with great discussions. The ones I participate in are usually not the 'gospel' type. When I was LDS, I made some very dear friends here. There are wonderful people here - LDS and non.

Perhaps we can be dear friends too some day, huh cynyclsgirl?

prisonchaplain · June 10, 2006

Heh, are you trying to suggest the idea that the ice you are skating on is not as thin as mine? And that your ice is thicker than mine because you really know the truth about God, from God Himself?

No, I'm suggesting that if someone claims that the Holy Spirit has encouraged them in their faith, and you declare that said encouragement is demonic, you are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Even though you think you are right, it would be wiser and spiritually safer to address the facts presented, rather than presuming to know the spiritual source of them.

I know what I know, Tommy, because God has assured me of those truths.

Have you noticed that I have not once responded to these many claims of yours? Whether I believe you or not, I would not presume to offer spiritual discernment, via the internet, concerning the spiritual source of any enlightenments or truths you may have picked up.

And what I know does not agree with some of what you say you know, or with some of what you think you know, or with some of what you believe you know, or with some of what you feel so sure about because that you say or think or believe God has assured you of what you say and think and believe you know to be true. (I think that covers everything, doesn’t it?)

It covers everything and nothing. Just stick to the facts and scriptural/revelatory truths under discussion, and you'd be a lot safer, as well as more informative.

So the bottom line is that only one of us, if any of us among the two of us, has really received our assurance from God, and the other one of us is only saying or thinking or believing his assurance has come from God, when in fact his assurance has actually come from Satan or himself or another person or persons who he is relying on as someone who has told him the truth… because we both do not agree with each other, on certain issues, and God always agrees with God. Right? Or do you not know God well enough to know that God is “one” in agreement with the truth?

Rather than belaboring the "we can't both be right" point, just prove or at least explain why you say that you are. "Because God told me so" doesn't cut it, because we weren't privy to the conversation. So, you'll have to pray for us, and do as the Bible says: be ready to give an answer for the faith ...

BTW, imho, you last question here is unproductive.

And I am so sure that I truly know God, as well as I do, that I’d die to seal my testimony.

Lot's of people have died wrong.

And yeah. I know. You are too. So we’ll just have to wait for God to judge us. Right?

Or, we could have an intelligent, respectful conversation about spiritual issues and experiences--one that is respect-ful, and sans the inquiries about who's demonized.

And No, I'm not going to play “Chicken” with you on this, because I would change my position if I really knew you know the truth... after receiving my assurance from God... which I have already recieved and continue to receive as I seek to know ALL truth.

You can't continue to receive ALL truth if you've already received it. So, the boldfaced part gives me hope that I might yet help you some--since you've been so generous with your help.

And btw, I never said anyone was "demonized", unless you're referring to the fact that there are demons (or deceitful spirits) around all of us trying to get us to believe things that aren't true, with some of us believing them.

Too late, Ray. You had demons all over Shantress, and wait dozens of posts to say you never said she was demonized? Shantress70 has already come to accept you as you are, Ray. She can live with it. So, let's just move beyond the demon talk, eh?

Take a look at your own words above. Would a "Christian" say something like that to someone else?

Let me step in with answers--people shouldn't have to defend themselves always--sometimes it helps to call on witnesses.

1. Yes, Jesus would call self-righteous religious teachers to task for their errors. He had many choice words for the Pharisees--calling them white-washed sepuchres (tombs) at one point, a generation of vipers at another. AND, when these so-called teachers questioned the source of Jesus' authority, he declared that they were very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

And that picture you used was a picture you chose to use, not something that I made you do.

2. It was a relevent icon demonstrating that "said poster" (might be you ) was trafficking in demon-tales.

You always accuse me of being the "bad" guy, and I'm simply saying you are deceived... and being "deceived" is not bad, if you'll learn what is true, instead of sharing what I know is not true and what I've told you isn't true, to try to give you some better information to think with.

3. Nobody used the words "bad guy," like "said poster" never used the word "demonized." But, those who go around pretending to operate with absolute spiritual discernment, and declaring those they disagree with to be inspired by demons, imho are demonstrating "bad guy" traits. See? I'm not condemning the sinner--just the sin.

Thank you for your support, cynyclsgirl. I will consider you to be my "second witness" to the things I have said, in accordance with God's law of witnesses, and now that we've shared what we know to be true, it is now up to others to either embrace or reject our testimony when they stand before God to be judged.

Ray, please don't go into law--whatever you do! You've just joined yourself to a "second witness" who's on most of the moderators' "watch out for this one" list. Stand on your own testimony, Ray. I find myself trying to help you reach clarity more and more. Don't grasp at every straw that comes your way. Simplify. It's so much safer.

June 10, 2006

Have you noticed that I have not once responded to these many claims of yours? Whether I believe you or not, I would not presume to offer spiritual discernment, via the internet, concerning the spiritual source of any enlightenments or truths you may have picked up.

Quite. Not to be a broken record, but the pages and pages of fruitless debates between two otherwise good guys gives me a headache. I usually just scroll down the replies now and if it's longer than a page I'm sure it's a line-by-line "you're out of line" list...and I skip it.

Now Ray, I agree with what you believe. But if I were PC, I'd be offended by your posts on a regular basis. I really see you pushing instead of embracing...which is a shame because as I said I believe what you do.

I've addressed this months ago, but old habits die hard I guess. Why can't you just say, "I believe this because of this, but respect that you believe that because of that." Agree to disagree, not look beyond the mark by reading between the lines? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's gagging on this constant tug-o-war.

Let's all be friends, eh? And move on...

Sugarbay · June 10, 2006

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This is where I was confused. I always thought most people used the term Christian to refer to someone who believed in Jesus as Savior; I didn't know you also meant someone who will dwell with God in the next life. I understand now.

Well, you were half right. We do believe the term "Christian" refers to someone who believes in Jesus as Saviour. However, we also believe that such faith is sufficient for entry into eternity with God.

Now, if someone believes in Jesus as Savior--but does not believe that his/her faith is sufficient--that works must also be done to earn the salvation--we would label such beliefs heterodox (unacceptable).

I'm afraid I used many, many more words in an attempt to say just that. Your quote above proves Shakespeare was right: Brevity is the soul of wit. :)

I'm not suggesting that such an approach will necessarily garner more souls, but it will clear up some of the confusion that exists between the LDS Church and the rest of us.

Let's go to the doppler.

JAMES 2:17-26 where it clearly states that faith without works is dead, being alone. Interesting the fact that in verse 19 it says: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." 20: "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

We do not get anywhere on faith alone. Verse 26: "For as the bodyu without the spirit is dead, so faith wihtout works is dead also." King James Version.

I am not picking on you Chap, I adore you, just going to the scriptures where it plainly states that faith alone is not enough.

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Believe nothing, because you haven’t made up your mind, which is to NOT believe God or those God has inspired.

As a missionary, I was careful not to "give up" on people who rejected the message or just didn't listen. I went forth with the voice of warning, but I wasn't privy to the communications between them and God. Thus, I couldn't say if they'd "had their chance" because I didn't know if God did or didn't tell them our message was true. The same thing applies here, I think. We don't know what God has or hasn't told someone yet. Instead of drawing a line in the sand, let's erase the lines that divide us.

Ahh, a voice of reason in the wilderness. Good post.

Sugarbay · June 10, 2006

I hate to break it to you, but those of us who God and Joseph better than you do know that you have been deceived... and I think you know by you know who.
Ray, are you saying that Shantress has been deceived by Satan???
And I'm relieved that you didn't get offended by my efforts to truly try to "help" you. :)
An ancient chaplaincy proverb goes: Beware those who self-describe the assistance they offer as quote-unquote help.
So the mantra, "judge them by their fruits" needs to be taken very broadly--to include doctrine.
Ahh, but of course! So no more viva la difference???
Ray, you've all but accused Shantress of being demonized, and then imply that I'm being contentious to invoke a scriptural admonition???

What are the core values of LDSTalk. Is anyone moderating this thread?

actually have you takened the time to get on your knee's to actually ask Heavenly Father about Joseph Smith? or do you simply rely on your neighbors wisdom.
No, I am not relying on anyone else's wisdom. I was a member of this church for several years, and when I finally got serious about asking, God gave me the message to move on.