Born this way

[tubaloth]

I don't know if we do have an answer to this question. And maybe thats why the idea has come up.

Their is a song by Lady Gaga called "Born this way". I was pretty sure it was going to talk about Same Sex attraction, even before I heard the song.

I guess I'm still amazed at how much confusion can be brought about in such small ways.

The over all idea of the Song actually isn't that bad...

"There's nothin' wrong with lovin' who you are"

She said, "'Cause He made you perfect, babe"

"So hold your head up, girl and you'll go far,

Listen to me when I say"

I'm beautiful in my way,

'Cause God makes no mistakes

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born this way

Don't hide yourself in regret,

Just love yourself and you're set

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born this way "

I don't see the lesson here any different then what is I AM A CHILD OF GOD.

Knowing who you are is important. Know that you are part of something bigger in God's plan is important. Which is kind of the over all message to the song.

But the song takes this idea and twists it.

"Don't be a drag, just be a queen

Whether you're broke or evergreen

You're black, white, beige, chola descent

You're lebanese, you're orient

Whether life's disabilities

Left you outcast, bullied or teased

Rejoice and love yourself today

'Cause baby, you were born this way

No matter gay, straight or bi

lesbian, transgendered life

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born to survive

No matter black, white or beige

chola or orient made

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born to be brave"

Pretty much taking the idea of which race and location you were born is part of God's plan. This part is true. But it takes it one step farther into being gay, is part of God's plan, which is wrong.

The explanation is God doesn't make mistakes. Which he doesn't. But a Mortal world does.

The song then pretty much says don't worry about what religion says

"Give yourself prudence and love your friends

Subway kid, rejoice the truth

In the religion of the insecure

I must be myself, respect my youth "

Honestly, I wonder if General Conference well bring up this topic again!

[alexm8]

I immediately thought of how Satan will tell ten truths to tell one lie. When I was a teenager I had some homosexual experiences with some friends; however, I turned out very straight and never looked back. When I bring this up to the LGBT community, they tell me that I was just young and too immature and didn't understand the decisions I was making.

Except, if that's the argument, then how can they expect ANY teenager to be mature enough to understand the decisions they make? It is so prevalent in our society that ANY homosexual thoughts and desires automatically make them gay, and that they cannot change. So, instead of associating it with youth and immaturity of which can be repented of, Satan has them bound that it's just they way they are, and they are stuck like that.

Christ's forgiving power is able to overcome that. I've used it. Homosexual desires can be overwritten with natural ones. I've done it. Do I still have thoughts, yes, but they are immediately turned to "eww". It is all how you associate it in your mind. If someone allows the temptation to turn them on, it becomes associated with powerful emotions and feelings and reinforces those thoughts. If they can change the association to something benign, or even that "eww" factor, it can be overcome.

[Soulsearcher]

I don't know if we do have an answer to this question. And maybe thats why the idea has come up.

Their is a song by Lady Gaga called "Born this way". I was pretty sure it was going to talk about Same Sex attraction, even before I heard the song.

I guess I'm still amazed at how much confusion can be brought about in such small ways.

The over all idea of the Song actually isn't that bad...

"There's nothin' wrong with lovin' who you are"

She said, "'Cause He made you perfect, babe"

"So hold your head up, girl and you'll go far,

Listen to me when I say"

I'm beautiful in my way,

'Cause God makes no mistakes

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born this way

Don't hide yourself in regret,

Just love yourself and you're set

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born this way "

I don't see the lesson here any different then what is I AM A CHILD OF GOD.

Knowing who you are is important. Know that you are part of something bigger in God's plan is important. Which is kind of the over all message to the song.

But the song takes this idea and twists it.

"Don't be a drag, just be a queen

Whether you're broke or evergreen

You're black, white, beige, chola descent

You're lebanese, you're orient

Whether life's disabilities

Left you outcast, bullied or teased

Rejoice and love yourself today

'Cause baby, you were born this way

No matter gay, straight or bi

lesbian, transgendered life

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born to survive

No matter black, white or beige

chola or orient made

I'm on the right track, baby

I was born to be brave"

Pretty much taking the idea of which race and location you were born is part of God's plan. This part is true. But it takes it one step farther into being gay, is part of God's plan, which is wrong.

The explanation is God doesn't make mistakes. Which he doesn't. But a Mortal world does.

The song then pretty much says don't worry about what religion says

"Give yourself prudence and love your friends

Subway kid, rejoice the truth

In the religion of the insecure

I must be myself, respect my youth "

Honestly, I wonder if General Conference well bring up this topic again!

Again the error is one that LDS understand very well. Don't ask non-LDS to define and explain the church. In the same idea, don't ask straights to define and explain homosexuals. People can tell me lots of things they think about how and why i feel the way i do, but very few of them can actually understand it til they are there. Even the church has backed off the "we know it's not biological" to take the clearer stance of, "even if it is biological doesn't mean you can't just never act on it"

[rameumptom]

Justifying any sin because one was born a certain way is not God's way. We are the children of God, but to remain his children requires us to learn to be like Him. We are not justified in using our genetics as an excuse to do our own thing.

[Soulsearcher]

Justifying any sin because one was born a certain way is not God's way. We are the children of God, but to remain his children requires us to learn to be like Him. We are not justified in using our genetics as an excuse to do our own thing.

I do understand this, though understanding the origin not only helps the people afflicted as well as those trying to aid them. Telling a blind person it's all in their mind and it's their fault they can't see doesn't help that person get any closer to God. Finding out why they are blind and standing with them as they cope and providing a loving example would seem to have a greater and healthier impact would it not?

That being said this has all been discussed many many many times on many many threads so it might be better to just go back and read through the various constant go rounds we've had over the years

Edited March 26, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[Matthew0059]

Again the error is one that LDS understand very well. Don't ask non-LDS to define and explain the church. In the same idea, don't ask straights to define and explain homosexuals. People can tell me lots of things they think about how and why i feel the way i do, but very few of them can actually understand it til they are there. Even the church has backed off the "we know it's not biological" to take the clearer stance of, "even if it is biological doesn't mean you can't just never act on it"

What about faithful LDS who suffer from same-sex attraction? Can they define and explain homosexuals?

I dealt with same-sex attraction in my youth. I still do occassionally. Can I explain how you work based on this premise?

[Soulsearcher]

What about faithful LDS who suffer from same-sex attraction? Can they define and explain homosexuals?

I dealt with same-sex attraction in my youth. I still do occassionally. Can I explain how you work based on this premise?

Possibly if you mean you were only attracted to same sex. The difference that seems to be missed is most studies show the majority of the population will have some minor same sex attraction at some point. The difference between these occasional tendencies and what would be usually classified as homosexuals is that there is no attraction to opposite sex persons at all. So you have the ability to comment on same sex attraction, but at the same time if you want to comment on homosexuality you'd have to say you never had an attraction to opposite sex during this time.

And yes active LDS who are homosexual can define and explain. The vast majority of those trying that i've talked to, read about or heard about have agreed it's much better when people consider biological and don't blame a week mind, spirit or will as to the source of the temptation and instead offer support and compassion as the person tried to live a celibate life.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[ruthiechan]

Possibly if you mean you were only attracted to same sex. The difference that seems to be missed is most studies show the majority of the population will have some minor same sex attraction at some point. The difference between these occasional tendencies and what would be usually classified as homosexuals is that there is no attraction to opposite sex persons at all. So you have the ability to comment on same sex attraction, but at the same time if you want to comment on homosexuality you'd have to say you never had an attraction to opposite sex during this time.

And yes active LDS who are homosexual can define and explain. The vast majority of those trying that i've talked to, read about or heard about have agreed it's much better when people consider biological and don't blame a week mind, spirit or will as to the source of the temptation and instead offer support and compassion as the person tried to live a celibate life.

Wait, you're saying if someone is bi they can't understand you?

You're saying that someone who is empathetic and really good at putting themselves in someone else's shoes can't understand you?

You're saying that if I'm not the same as you I can't understand you?

If that's the case then no one has any hope at all of understanding anyone else.

[Soulsearcher]

Wait, you're saying if someone is bi they can't understand you?

You're saying that someone who is empathetic and really good at putting themselves in someone else's shoes can't understand you?

You're saying that if I'm not the same as you I can't understand you?

If that's the case then no one has any hope at all of understanding anyone else.

Yes and no. Really depends on the intent. Most Anti-lds swear they are very understanding and just trying to save LDS souls. They think they know more than the LDS themselves and know the proper way of the world and nothing you say is really going to change it. there is a fine line between empathy and true understanding. Can people empathize, very much so, but true understanding might be lacking. It's the same with me in a lot of instances with religion and faith, i can't understand cause try as i might i don't find what many do, so i can empathize a great deal and keep trying to understand but i will always fall short because it's something that's just not a real part of my life.

[slamjet]

So here's a question I have, and please forgive me if it comes off on the ignorant side:

Understanding that there are those who are born with homosexual predilections, is it possible for a person to develop homosexual predilections from abuse of a homosexual nature during childhood?

[Soulsearcher]

So here's a question I have, and please forgive me if it comes off on the ignorant side:

Understanding that there are those who are born with homosexual predilections, is it possible for a person to develop homosexual predilections from abuse of a homosexual nature during childhood?

I do think so. I've always kinda held there are 3 "types" of gay people. Those who are born with the attraction, those who pick it up through their environment ( such as sexual abuse ect ect) and the newer "cool" factor. I've known all 3 types, and sadly dated the 3rd type and it's interesting to interact with them and see some of the differences.

[prisonchaplain]

Again the error is one that LDS understand very well. Don't ask non-LDS to define and explain the church. In the same idea, don't ask straights to define and explain homosexuals. People can tell me lots of things they think about how and why i feel the way i do, but very few of them can actually understand it til they are there. Even the church has backed off the "we know it's not biological" to take the clearer stance of, "even if it is biological doesn't mean you can't just never act on it"

Churches, especially conservative ones like mine and the one this site is dedicated too, have tended to deny any possiblity that SSA could be significantly biological in origin. However, there is this undeniable reality that most gays and lesbians do not recall choosing their attraction. Rather, the almost always say they discovered it.

The link below is indeed a case of a non-homosexual describing homosexuality. However, it is a church perspective that is refreshing in its grasp of reality, and willingness to take on fale myths often finding easy circulation in our houses of worship.

Desires in Conflict: Hope and Healing for Individuals Struggling with Same-Sex Attraction

[Corvus]

Thank you for that link Chaplain. It's nice to see a faith inspired document that doesn't automatically condemn those that are homosexual.

Slight thread hijack, but since modern Christianity has chosen to disregard much of the old Mosaic law, why hasn't the prohibition on homosexual acts been thrown out as well?

Regardless of all that, I still think that if God can forgive murderers, molesters, and all sorts of other vile behavior, He can forgive those whose only sin is wanting to love someone of the same gender.

[Soulsearcher]

Churches, especially conservative ones like mine and the one this site is dedicated too, have tended to deny any possiblity that SSA could be significantly biological in origin. However, there is this undeniable reality that most gays and lesbians do not recall choosing their attraction. Rather, the almost always say they discovered it.

The link below is indeed a case of a non-homosexual describing homosexuality. However, it is a church perspective that is refreshing in its grasp of reality, and willingness to take on fale myths often finding easy circulation in our houses of worship.

Desires in Conflict: Hope and Healing for Individuals Struggling with Same-Sex Attraction

Very well written and covers many important points. I quite enjoyed it PC.

[Soulsearcher]

Thank you for that link Chaplain. It's nice to see a faith inspired document that doesn't automatically condemn those that are homosexual.

Slight thread hijack, but since modern Christianity has chosen to disregard much of the old Mosaic law, why hasn't the prohibition on homosexual acts been thrown out as well?

Regardless of all that, I still think that if God can forgive murderers, molesters, and all sorts of other vile behavior, He can forgive those whose only sin is wanting to love someone of the same gender.

It really seems to depend who you ask.

The most common answer i have gotten is that (and this is kinda a combination of similar thoughts expressed to me) When Christ died he fulfilled the old laws and brought about a higher law(my phrasing might be off a bit) So Mosaic law is no longer really applicable. That being said People will bring up Sodom and Gomorrah from the OT which wasn't so much based on mosaic law as it was direct action taken by god ( though many actually still debate what impact homosexuality played in the story), also a few mentions in the NT also seem to be the current focus of many. The NT arguments seem to be more and more common now, it's funny but the "Dr. Laura letter" has made many ( in my experiences, just by it's viral nature and popularity) shy from OT references as it highlighted the hypocrisy of claiming abomination when they willingly committed other acts labeled as abominations and didn't find any fault with it.

I also do have to laugh. There was a mormon in the states ( mentally ill, I'll be honest about it) who stoned a 70 year old man to death claiming the old man was gay and the OT made it very clear gays needed to be killed. Really it was just a guy trying to get the other guys money, but i did find the story humorous and a nice reminder why taking scripture 100% literally might not always be the best idea.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[Corvus]

I'll have to admit, I'm a bad Catholic. I really can't recall any instances in the NT where homosexuality is condemned. I'll assume it's something that Paul said.

I don't know what the Dr. Laura letter is, though.

BTW, awesome signature line. I love that book.

[Soulsearcher]

I'll have to admit, I'm a bad Catholic. I really can't recall any instances in the NT where homosexuality is condemned. I'll assume it's something that Paul said.

I don't know what the Dr. Laura letter is, though.

BTW, awesome signature line. I love that book.

the Dr. Laura letter was a response to her calling homosexuality an abomination, it's been re done a few times . Wingnut and my favorite rendition can be found here

Also the most common NT reference is in Romans.

[Corvus]

Figured it was Paul.

Not wanting to sound biased, but isn't Dr. Laura jewish? Wouldn't that affect how she viewed homosexuality? I would think that someone who believed in the OT but not the NT would have a serious problem with homosexuality. For me, not so much. I think that we, as Christians and humans in general, have much more important things to worry about.

[Soulsearcher]

Figured it was Paul.

Not wanting to sound biased, but isn't Dr. Laura jewish? Wouldn't that affect how she viewed homosexuality? I would think that someone who believed in the OT but not the NT would have a serious problem with homosexuality. For me, not so much. I think that we, as Christians and humans in general, have much more important things to worry about.

I think the letter was more a public response to the same old rhetoric being used. I've heard it from Catholics, Jews, LDS, Baptists ect ect. So the guy who wrote the letter was pretty much saying, fine, if that's how you see it how do you explain the rest..... So it wasn't so much a shot at her as it was an open invite to everyone to explain about picking and choosing which parts they were following and why they thought it gave them moral high ground. Again why I've seen more of a shift to NT references from those who actually tend to show integrity.

[Corvus]

I just watched the YT clip. I'd forgotten how much I like The West Wing.

Again, I say how much this bickering over homosexual relationships is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We've got much more important things to worry about.

And again, I stress that Paul was a converted Jew, still very much steeped in the faith of his fathers. We all think that not everything that Joseph Smith did was inspired by the Heavenly Father. I can't understand why we can't apply that to the many things that the other prophets have written.

[Soulsearcher]

I just watched the YT clip. I'd forgotten how much I like The West Wing.

Again, I say how much this bickering over homosexual relationships is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We've got much more important things to worry about.

And again, I stress that Paul was a converted Jew, still very much steeped in the faith of his fathers. We all think that not everything that Joseph Smith did was inspired by the Heavenly Father. I can't understand why we can't apply that to the many things that the other prophets have written.

It's a moral issue they can focus on, that they can act on. We've even seen it said on this site that Gays are the biggest threat to america. That if gays can get married it's pretty much the end of family and america. Some see it as redirection, easier to try and clean up others yards while ignoring the fire in their own. For some it's just the ability to act, with the shape the world is in it is easier to find a cause you think will help the world and sink your teeth in. From what i've heard the average american feels pretty powerless to make change. This gives a feel good mission to many.

It becomes dangerous territory to second guess prophets with out new revelation. No matter what era. If people can just dismiss revelation or scripture at random, then how much of the faith is lost? Also it's hard for people to question what they know and have been taught for generations. We still hear some people say blacks aren't human, women are property, races shouldn't mingle cause it's sin. It can take a very long time for a culture to change, never mind a person. It is what it is, i just always find it funny both sides are pretty much saying the exact same thing and neither is willing to take a step back and say "oops"

[Corvus]

I had this discussion with a co-worker a while back. We had both watched the documentary "Prop 8" on Netflix. I told him that I could understand where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was coming from. If marriage between the same genders was made legal, then legally, a same-sex couple could sue to get a church to marry them.

Now, my own (and many others') solution is to un-couple the institution of marriage from the tax code. I lived in Germany for 3 years while in the Army. There, you can get married in a church all you want, but unless you go to the city hall and fill out paperwork for a civil union, you're not "married" in the eyes of the state. I think the same system here would solve a lot of our problems. No church would have to marry a couple they deemed unworthy and no couple, regardless of composition would be deemed unworthy in the eyes of the state.

It's just such a tragedy that so many people won't let their misconceptions go. I can't believe that a loving God would insert something so divisive into the thinking of His children.

[Soulsearcher]

I had this discussion with a co-worker a while back. We had both watched the documentary "Prop 8" on Netflix. I told him that I could understand where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was coming from. If marriage between the same genders was made legal, then legally, a same-sex couple could sue to get a church to marry them.

Now, my own (and many others') solution is to un-couple the institution of marriage from the tax code. I lived in Germany for 3 years while in the Army. There, you can get married in a church all you want, but unless you go to the city hall and fill out paperwork for a civil union, you're not "married" in the eyes of the state. I think the same system here would solve a lot of our problems. No church would have to marry a couple they deemed unworthy and no couple, regardless of composition would be deemed unworthy in the eyes of the state.

It's just such a tragedy that so many people won't let their misconceptions go. I can't believe that a loving God would insert something so divisive into the thinking of His children.

The funny thing was in Cali they already had a bill going through to protect the churches from having to marry gay couples. It was backed by the gays and was a sure thing from what i hear. So even offered those protections they still fought as hard as they did.

I've seen a few suggestions similar to yours and personally i like them. Also i know many who would accept equal civil unions as well, the issue being federal recognition. Would be interesting to see what would happen if both sides of the fight put the money and energy into equal civil unions instead of fighting one another how much of this would all go away and how quickly it might be finished.

[Corvus]

I like that we're on the same ground, Soulsearcher. :)

Long before studying the LDS faith, I swore, much like Thomas Jefferson that Reason (yes, with a capital R) would be my guide. I cannot abide oppression. I think that if we, and others like us, started a movement to implement our ideas, we could succeed.

Again, I can't stress enough, out of all the sins that we are committing, loving another human being (of the "wrong" gender) can't be very high on God's list. I really hope he has mercy on us all.

[blackknight5k]

Now, my own (and many others') solution is to un-couple the institution of marriage from the tax code. I lived in Germany for 3 years while in the Army. There, you can get married in a church all you want, but unless you go to the city hall and fill out paperwork for a civil union, you're not "married" in the eyes of the state. I think the same system here would solve a lot of our problems. No church would have to marry a couple they deemed unworthy and no couple, regardless of composition would be deemed unworthy in the eyes of the state.

That would be my desired solution as well, however it seems that now it's an "all or nothing" thing within the political world and no one will consider just removing "marriage" from legal definition.

I have a large amount of gay family. I have 2 gay brothers, my mom has had lesbian relationships, one cousin is a lesbian, I have a gay uncle, and multiple cousins beyond "first cousins" that are lesbians - and this is all on the same side of my family (mom's side). Not counting anyone outside of immediate family, that is 5 out of 20ish (25% - 20% if you don't count my mom) people in that one side of my family that are either gay or bi. This makes a rather compelling argument to the whole "gay may be genetic" theory.

That being said - I do believe that homosexuality is a sin (as the majority of the people here agree to) and I believe that it is one of those sins that has been since Adam and Eve, though I have no doctrine to support it. I do, however, want my family to be happy in this life. I don't want them to be hurt because of their sexuality, nor do I want them to live a miserable lonely existence on this earth. I wish I could ask God what was up, why my brother who refused to play "boy toys" and only wanted to dress up in dresses and play with barbies since as far back as I remember - and to get a clear concise answer from him.

I have prayed about this, and before I hit submit on this post I prayed with this question. But, I don't think I'll ever know the answer in this life, but maybe in the next.