I'm confused

[Backroads]

I'm not sure how you distinguished between those that have never studied it but believed it (brainwashed) and those that have never studied it but believed it (studied and not brainwashed). Your two statements above seem contradictory, to me.

Me thinketh you are just trying to find an excuse to be mad at me. What's the issue? Did I somehow offend you? You seem to be digging to find fault in my opinion. Yes, I disagree with the idea of being a Mormon just because you are supposed to. Those that get defensive about it are probably "brainwashed" and have no actual testimony of their own. If that bothers you, too bad.

If you like, I will restate my words:

People who truly believe something will have considered why they believe it, i.e. "study it". It might be through personal study and prayer and "book learning", it might be taking the words and testimonies of others. Either way, they will take this knowledge to mind and heart and will study it.

I will admit that perhaps I made "study" sound like a research action. I mean it more as a mental process.

[Backroads]

You said:

Quote:

I will say one other thing on that topic: THere seems to be two general groups of people that have not studied their beliefs. One group really just doesn't care much either way and is largely in this belief system out of habit or culture. The other believes it, but has never bothered to study it. That latter is possibly where any "brainwashed" messages can come in.

I'm not sure how you distinguished between those that have never studied it but believed it (brainwashed) and those that have never studied it but believed it (studied and not brainwashed). Your two statements above seem contradictory, to me.

I see what you mean here, why they seem contradictory. I shall try to reword:

The first group, if you pressed them, would probably admit they have no testimony. They might like the Church for various reasons, but see no reason to study and pray.

The second group THINKS they have a testimony. They like feeling good about the gospel, they like going to girls' camp and feeling happy about the church. But they have no idea what they believe because they have never bothered to sort out their feelings and beliefs. They have never bothered to see how they feel about various statements of the gospel.

[beefche]

Me thinketh you are just trying to find an excuse to be mad at me. What's the issue? Did I somehow offend you? You seem to be digging to find fault in my opinion. Yes, I disagree with the idea of being a Mormon just because you are supposed to. Those that get defensive about it are probably "brainwashed" and have no actual testimony of their own. If that bothers you, too bad.

If you like, I will restate my words:

People who truly believe something will have considered why they believe it, i.e. "study it". It might be through personal study and prayer and "book learning", it might be taking the words and testimonies of others. Either way, they will take this knowledge to mind and heart and will study it.

I will admit that perhaps I made "study" sound like a research action. I mean it more as a mental process.

I'm not mad at you nor am I offended. Your statements seemed contradictory and I was trying to understand what you were saying. Also, I was concerned that for those people who would read this thread and who have never had what is termed a "spiritual experience" would start to question if they were brainwashed because they believed on the words of others (prophets, missionaries, etc.). I think that sometimes people forget that that is a gift of the Spirit--to have that faith to believe the words of others.

[beefche]

And perhaps it is just me, but your explanations are still not helping me to understand your separation of the 2 groups. I'll drop it so as not to detract further from this thread.

[Backroads]

And perhaps it is just me, but your explanations are still not helping me to understand your separation of the 2 groups. I'll drop it so as not to detract further from this thread.

I shall, too. I suppose it's a hard thing to put into words, my differentiation, anyway. Peace.

[webmasterteen]

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one suffering through this feeling of doubt. I have already been blessed enough to feel happy while reading this.

Of course, there are still a few problems and arguments I've been given.

The biggest one is, of course you'll feel good, because you've convinced yourself that you are feeling good. Just as, if you were to take a test in school, you can convince yourself that you did well, but you may have done poor.

Or if you get a faster computer, you may be told it's fast and then you force yourself to believe it's fast, when in reality you are just making it seem fast because you were told it is.

I really do liked reading the replies I'm getting. It is helping me to understand and realize things that I didn't think of, for example how everyone is brainwashed, plus what does it matter to a few online what I believe?

I think the biggest problem I'm getting now is what my stance is with gay marriage and why. It's hard to explain to them what I believe when they refuse to accept any of it, and they question me to the core.

I do go to seminary, church, read my scriptures, etc. The only difference is I've had a bit of a doubt in my mind lately.

[aquaviva_7]

The bible says this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. - Ephesians 2:8,9

And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. - Romans 11:6

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. - Hebrews 1:1-2

And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. - Matthew 11:24

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. - Romans 10:9-10

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." - Romans 10:13

Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear. - Matthew 24:35

Read the New testament as a child and you will see the truth.

Edited April 5, 2011 by aquaviva_7

[crashdown]

Webmasterteen,

Have you asked Heavenly Father to give you the words and the confidence to answer their questions? He will, you know. Just ask.

Also consider this: You may need to make a courageous stand with your friends. You may need to say to them, "I'm not asking you to agree with my beliefs or understand them, or even like them. I AM asking you to respect them." If they won't do this (and this is the really hard part), seek out some different friends who will respect your beliefs. Again, Heavenly Father will give you the words and confidence to do this if you will just ask Him!

Please know that your situation is nothing new. We've all encountered this and the advice given is simply what we ourselves have had to do.

You are doing the right things....just remember to ask Heavenly Father for help! I am confident He will help you and you will come out of this all right!!!

[webmasterteen]

Yes, I have prayed, ask for forgiveness for doubting, etc.

I notice a feeling of peace and happiness when I think about my religion and I accept it, whereas when I doubted it, I felt pain.

[rameumptom]

If those were just chemical reactions in your body, why then are they consistently the same? I believe the Holy Ghost may use chemical reactions in our body to effect our testimonies. If it was, as Ebeneezer Scrooge would say, just a piece of undigested potato, then you would feel a variety of feelings on both believing and doubting. As it is consistent, you should trust that feeling.

Why walk away from a feeling that brings you such joy and peace, when the other only offers you pain? Imagine how it must affect those who do not believe. They are in pain, but do not even realize it because they have rejected the true peace that is available.

[JudoMinja]

I think the biggest problem I'm getting now is what my stance is with gay marriage and why. It's hard to explain to them what I believe when they refuse to accept any of it, and they question me to the core.

It has become the norm to accept gay marriage. Anyone who goes against the norm is going to meet resistance. You will find a range of commitment in those who support gay marriage, and those who are most dead-set in their views are typically the ones who try to badger people who do not support it. The best approach is to clarify that you are not homophobic and do not place any sort of judgement on those who are gay, you just do not agree. No amount of explaining will convince such people to understand your view.

On a different note- Something else came to mind that I believe will help you out. I do not know if you've ever seen the movie "Second-hand Lions", but it is a very good family film and has a great message about belief in it. The main character is a boy who doubts everything he is told, because he has been raised by a very untrustworthy mother. He is used to being lied to, and has become very skeptical at heart. He is taken to spend a summer with his great-uncles, and while with them he discovers an outrageous tale about their adventures in Africa. He finds himself wanting to believe it, but still has his doubts.

After he has heard the entirety of the tale, he asks one of the uncles (Hub) if it is true. Hub then explains to him that he must choose for himself whether or not he is going to believe it. He states that there are some things you just have to believe in, or life isn't worth living. Is there such a thing as true love? Are people inherently good? Does good always triumph over evil? Maybe not. But not believeing in these things just makes life miserable, and how we choose to believe will affect our actions and how we treat others. Would you rather be a doubter, and spend your entire life expecting clouds? Or would you rather believe, and find life more enjoyable because you can see the silver lining? Ultimately, its up to you.

[estradling75]

webmasterteen you have been given much good advice in how to strengthen your faith. I wish to present another spin on how to look at it. I would hope that you would take it as an addition to the advice you have already received. I most definitely do not want it taken as an instead of.

You've beliefs have come under attack, and you a questioning and doubting God, wondering if perhaps atheism is correct in some way. Some times in our studies and searching it can be helpful to take an idea and run it to its logical conclusion.

So what are some the logical results if atheism is correct? What is the purpose of life in that situation? What are the logical goals you should have in that situation? And ultimately is that really what you want?

If there is no God then Darwinism is the only answer to why you are here. Basically you are an animal that has become self aware and capable of using tools and reasoning. Therefore the basic drive is going to be to reproduce. Far and wide. However if you want to pass on more then your genetic code, if you want to pass on your values and ideals, if you want to help ensure some kind of lasting legacy through kids, then you have to narrow your focus.

After kids then what should your goals be under atheism? Riches, fame, power? Seems good but logically only a very small percentage of people ever reach that. Most likely you will follow the other 99% of humanity is being relatively unknown and unremarkable outside a small group of people. I would propose that the goal should be to be happy for as long as you can. Sure you could do the Jim Dean method of 'life fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse' if you want. But death is the end so perhaps you should avoid that.

So if I've captured reasonable and rationals goals to have if atheism is true then what is the best way to reach the goals?

In the church there is a strong support network for starting kids and raising families. It can be flawed, and it is not perfect, but it is there, versus having to pull together on your own.

As for happiness and peace, if there is no God then does it matter where you find it? The church does have it as a goal whereas your atheist contact seems to be trying to destroy it for you. Therefore it would seem like church is a better way to reach that goal even if there is no God.

So lets take a comparison, you live your life as a faithful church member, and the Atheist lives his. Let blow away the Christan stereotype of Atheists and say you both had equally fulfilling lives. Then you both die and there is no god. You had a support network helping you every step of the way and the Atheist just had what they could pull together. You got the same result as the Atheist did.

And that if there is no God, if there is, well the situation changes quite a bit in the afterlife. Interesting is it not, that while you might have to give up some things to walk the Godly path, you still mange to get all the major life goals that Atheism points you toward while doing so?

[rameumptom]

You just tell them that sexual sin of any kind is a sin. All people are born with different traits, but we are not forced to give in to any of them. We do not judge people for their temptations or natural inclinations. They are judged for their actual behavior. Yes, people may be born gay, while others are born with other traits. All of them can serve and go to the temple, as long as they follow the behaviors required. Only God can judge any of them.

Leave it at that.

[Backroads]

I know answers are important and all and it's good to have a strong defense, but is it really necessary to be debating this with the people on your other forum? You have your views and your legitimate reasons for them, no doubt they have the same.

[jayanna]

IT is really tempting to get wound up contending with others.

The Lord has helped me with this issue, personally. He gave me a dream where there was this really big house, and a big yard with a sign out front. It was one of those signs that have a big arrow lined around the edges with lightbulbs. All of the lightbulbs in the house were out, as well as the ones on the sign outside. I was working with others to change all of the lights. There were people smiling and working together to change the lights. Everything was bluey/gray in color, and slowly became more homey/yellow.

I was one of the people who were charged with the changing of the lights. As I got my materials (I'm a shorty) to change bulbs, someone started talking to me. It was a man. He had really rotten teeth, but he was so happy that I was talking with him, and he was such an interesting conversationalist that I got really wound up listening to him responding. I was so distracted by this conversation that when I looked up at the progress of the work, everything was already done. There were no more lights to change and I didn't get to help with any of it. The conversation was so trivial I don't even remember what it was about.

When I woke up I promised myself that I would focus on the work and not get distracted from my purpose by things like bad conversations. In the end, they lead nowhere, people won't except advice they don't ask for...sure we are supposed to shine a light, but people have to come towards that light, we can't chase them with it, it only makes them run away.

[Saldrin]

Not sure what to reply with that has not been said but i would like you to watch this.

and he cracks me up too.

[Guest tbaird22]

If you were brain washed you never would have went inactive. Duh. Yes your parents raised you the way they wanted too, but if your parents don't try to teach you then society will be the one to influence you. Society or the church your choice

[Dravin]

If you were brain washed you never would have went inactive. Duh.

Maybe someone's been using non-colorfast bleach in the brainwashing machine again?

How many times do I have to tell you people...

[webmasterteen]

I'm glad to see more replies, and I'm grateful for the support to help someone on the Internet whom you may never meet in real life. :)

I've been accepting my faith again. I realize how foolish it is to trust the world. I know that I need to be in the world, but not OF the world. I had wanted to see the different cultural traditions, faiths, etc. But I got wound up and confused.

The real concerns I have now are mostly question based.

Some of the questions I cannot answer without hesitation, due to not knowing how to answer, are questions like:

"So how do you know the church is true, if it's the only church you've been to? How about checking out a few other thousand churches before deciding which one you like?"

and

"So because your church leaders and parents have taught you this, it MUST be correct! After all, you don't need to research it out because of course, your parents are experts on everything, right?"

[Dravin]

The answer to both those questions is personal revelation. I'm not saying you need to pray about the answers to the questions (though that certainly wouldn't be a bad idea) but that is how one knows the Church is true whether one has visited just it or a thousand others, and it is how you know your parents and church leaders are correct not just because they happened to be the first ones to teach you.

They're assuming that your conclusion is one based from reason, which while there are elements of reason involved ultimately your beliefs are faith and revelation based.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Dravin

[JudoMinja]

"So how do you know the church is true, if it's the only church you've been to? How about checking out a few other thousand churches before deciding which one you like?"

I've done this. Maybe not a thousand churches, but I've been to other churches. I've also done tons of research on other religions and their beliefs. This argument is actually a good one, in my opinion. It is difficult to be entirely sure of the truth of something when your background has been biased and you have not seen anything else. This research has only reinforced my belief in the LDS church.

"So because your church leaders and parents have taught you this, it MUST be correct! After all, you don't need to research it out because of course, your parents are experts on everything, right?"

This is a fairly valid point as well, but then you must ask yourself- where is the best place to research? Your parents are a pretty good source for church information if they've spent much of their time studying the church. I would also say that YES, church leaders ARE experts. At least on church doctrine. Who better to ask about the church?

When doing scientific research, it is important to check your sources. You want to make sure that the papers you are reading are peer-reviewed and coming from legit scientific journals. Going to church leaders to learn about the church is no different. You are seeking information from those who are most knowledgable about the topic you wish to study. Anti-mormon literature will be heavily biased and likely filled with misunderstandings about doctrines and flat-out lies. General internet searches will provide much misinformation. Look for solid legit sources and do your research.

You can then talk to "experts" about other religions you wish to research and make some comparisons. There is nothing wrong with researching your faith. Just remember that facts do not create faith. We also do not need to know "everything" to recognize what is true. We all have within us the ability to discern truth from lies- it is the Spirit of Christ. And one does not have to have a PhD to receive a witness from God.

[Backroads]

The real concerns I have now are mostly question based.

Some of the questions I cannot answer without hesitation, due to not knowing how to answer, are questions like:

"So how do you know the church is true, if it's the only church you've been to? How about checking out a few other thousand churches before deciding which one you like?"

and

"So because your church leaders and parents have taught you this, it MUST be correct! After all, you don't need to research it out because of course, your parents are experts on everything, right?"

Who has time to check out a few thousand churches? You feel right about one, you have studied and prayed and pondered...

Nothing worng with personal research and your testimony can't be your parents' testimony, but there are way too many logical fallacies in their line there.

[webmasterteen]

Thanks again for the answers.

I am feeling a lot more confident. And you know, who cares what other people, especially those who are on the Internet on the other side of the world, think? I'm not controlling their lives. They shouldn't control mine.

If I'm happy then it's okay to continue. If there is no God then at least I did stuff on Earth that made me happy. But because I am a member of the Church, I feel I have a reason. :)

[Guest tbaird22]

I dont have time to read all the other replies right now but as to the questions about your parents must be experts and its the only church youve been to lalala

Say:

*Ahem* God is the ultimate expert and since he's the one I prayed to know if the church was true or not and gave me my answer I have no need to look at the other churches except for the sole purpose of knowing what they teach as compared to what my church teaches.

[SavedXI]

Don't be foolish! Jesus gets offended when you question him!

You know it's true so why let some atheist freaks to tell you diffrent!

You know deep down the LDS is the true religion. Realize it again, & your questions will dissolve..

God bless you :]