Backroads Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 It's helped my testimony grow even stronger for Jesus Christ's church. Many will say to not read any anti-mormon material. That is good advice. I, on the other hand, do read the anti-mormon material but I do so that way I can see what people talk about, research what they talk against, and then have an answer. In other words I look at it so I know what to expect from others so I can go ahead and give them a response. It gets them off guard too.I must admit there is somet fun in theRandom Person: But your Church has < insert controversial subject >.Me: And... your point is? Quote
Javajot Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 And how does that relate to the discussion?It relates this way:You said I cannot guarantee that The Holy Ghost would not lead anyone away from this church to another church.I DO guarantee it. The mists of darkness that lead people to forbidden paths are not conjured up by the Spirit of the Lord. The wisdom, philosophies, and false doctrine of men mixed with gospel truth will not lead them back to God's presence. If it did there would have been no reason whatsoever for The Restoration. The Spirit of the Lord would NOT lead them there. Do you remember what God Himself said about this subject? Joseph Smith asked about it and was told:"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time."So why would God lead someone to a creed that is "wrong" and "an abomination in his sight"?He wouldn't.Again: I guarantee it! Quote
Backroads Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 It relates this way:You said I cannot guarantee that The Holy Ghost would not lead anyone away from this church to another church.I DO guarantee it. The mists of darkness that lead people to forbidden paths are not conjured up by the Spirit of the Lord. The wisdom, philosophies, and false doctrine of men mixed with gospel truth will not lead them back to God's presence. If it did there would have been no reason whatsoever for The Restoration. The Spirit of the Lord would NOT lead them there. Do you remember what God Himself said about this subject? Joseph Smith asked about it and was told:"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time."So why would God lead someone to a creed that is "wrong" and "an abomination in his sight"?He wouldn't.Again: I guarantee it!Are we talking about a man-made church or the church=the gospel? Quote
Javajot Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 Are we talking about a man-made church or the church=the gospel?This church (LDS) = The Gospel.Anything else = man-made. Quote
Backroads Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 This church (LDS) = The Gospel.Anything else = man-made.Thanks for the clarification. I think the Spirit could lead anyone where they needed to go (including man-made churches). But the Spirit would never lead away from absolute truth. Quote
Guest Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 I DO guarantee it. The mists of darkness that lead people to forbidden paths are not conjured up by the Spirit of the Lord. The wisdom, philosophies, and false doctrine of men mixed with gospel truth will not lead them back to God's presence.Amazingly, the Catholic Priests, my parents, the nuns in the Catholic school I grew up in, all my friends... and the Pope...say the exact same thing!Crazy, huh? Quote
Javajot Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 Amazingly, the Catholic Priests, my parents, the nuns in the Catholic school I grew up in, all my friends... and the Pope...say the exact same thing!Crazy, huh?Well, at least they got THAT right. Quote
Dravin Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) That's the thing though... the Holy Spirit doesn't come down from heaven and tell you straight to your face "The Book of Mormon is true".You're telling me how the Holy Ghost operates for people (hypothetically me and PrisonChaplin). I thought you didn't do that? It's a moot point though as it still boils down to either me or he being mistaken. *shrug* Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin Quote
Dravin Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 Poor PC, if he received royalties every time he was used in a hypothetical he'd be rich. :) Quote
Backroads Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 Poor PC, if he received royalties every time he was used in a hypothetical he'd be rich. :)Maybe he should charge royalties when his name is used! Quote
Dravin Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 Maybe he should charge royalties when his name is used!I know of a PirateCat on another forum, he'll have to fight over rights to the initials. Actually that would be an interesting faceoff. Pirate versus Padre. :) Quote
Guest Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 You're telling me how the Holy Ghost operates for people (hypothetically me and PrisonChaplin). I thought you didn't do that? It's a moot point though as it still boils down to either me or he being mistaken. *shrug*I don't consider it mistaken. Because I don't consider my being a Catholic a mistake.Instead of the question, "Is the Book of Mormon true"... it is better to use the example..."Is the Assemblies of God a true church?"Your answer - No.PC's answer - Yes.Both claim the Holy Spirit said so. Discuss.I don't have money, so Dravin will pay the royalties to PC. Quote
Dravin Posted April 28, 2011 Report Posted April 28, 2011 (edited) I don't consider it mistaken. Because I don't consider my being a Catholic a mistake.If we operate under the assumption that the Holy Ghost did not communicate contradictory things then yes. Either he or I was mistaken, because either he or I (or both of us) mistook what it was the Holy Ghost was trying to communicate, or the source of our answer. This isn't something more fluid we are talking about such as "Is the LDS Church where I should be right now?" We're talking about the Book of Mormon being true with a yes/no answer. If it is not true I am mistaken, if it is true then he is. Instead of the question, "Is the Book of Mormon true"... it is better to use the example..."Is the Assemblies of God a true church?"Your answer - No.PC's answer - Yes.Both claim the Holy Spirit said so. Discuss.Either I, PC, or both of us are mistaken in our perception of the answer. Either in what it was, or in its source. Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin Quote
bytebear Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) The influence of the Holy Ghost and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are not the same thing. One is open to any and all, the other can only be received through Priesthood power. Any church or individual can have the influence of the Holy Spirit, and I believe there are a good many churches and people outside the LDS faith who fit in this category. Priesthood authority is the key to LDS being the "true church". Anyone can start their own church, have the exact same hierarchical structure, the same church meeting structure, even the same ordinances and sacraments, but if there is no priesthood, it is not God's True Church. The LDS Church has a very specific method for priesthood authority to be given, and by and large Protestant churches do share nor claim to share the same laying on of hands "lineage" we believe is essential to preach and minister the ordinances of the Gospel (see Articles of Faith) Edited April 29, 2011 by bytebear Quote
prisonchaplain Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 Guys... it's really what makes all this anti- stuff terrible.PC here, for instance, is a good man. No doubt. He is not LDS. I am sure he has asked SEVERAL TIMES if the LDS church is true. Yet, he is not LDS.It is so easy for LDS people to say - PC does not have the Spirit with him. REALLY?That's what makes anti- anything so contentious.If we all just accept that we do not know how the Spirit works in every person, then we can be more charitable towards our fellowmen... LDS or not, Christian or not, even atheists, even those who left the LDS church.All we need to do is urge them to seek diligently. Constantly. Honestly. That is enough. There is no need to bring down his religious affiliation.I sincerely believe in my husband's words. "You are not going to hell." And I take it to heart and learn from it.So that, you will not ever see me being anti-any-religion.You might think - oh, Mormons are so oppressed they have all these anti-Mormons beating down on them. Make sure you're not beating down on others too. Perhaps my outsider perspective helps. I think I see both sides, and both are right. Anatess speaks passionately about people she knows who clearly hunger and thirst after righteousness--and after God. One was even LDS up until the verge of adolescence. She knows, and I understand your church to teach, that these folks (me included) will, in all likelihood, achieve the terrestial kingdom. Further, some LDS will do no better, and a few may do worse.On the other hand, I can see that the idea of a faithful LDS member with a testimony (even if only 12), leaving the restored gospel for a less complete form seems like apostasy, not Spirit-leading.Maybe you can all just agree that IF someone leaves the Church, you'd rather seem them find another than go off on a hedonistic and materialistic binge? Quote
prisonchaplain Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 Or to say that there is a time and season and that he isn't prepared to receive an answer. Not to imply that his somehow spiritually to anemic to receive a prayer, but because he needs to be in a place where when he does receive an answer he can act on it. If the Holy Ghost tells me the Book of Mormon is true, and the Holy Ghost is telling PC it is not true then one of us is mistaken. Not really a way around that unless we propose the Holy Ghost goes about lying to us for it's own purposes. Anatess is right to assign the judgment and "final calls" to God. On the other hand, Dravin is a superior friend in this--he is willing to risk relationship to point out our inability to reconcile differences. One of us is wrong! The balance is to neither condemn nor to offer easy or false comfort. It may eventually be okay...but today, one of us is not hearing the Holy Spirit accurately. That's a fair call. Quote
prisonchaplain Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 Maybe he should charge royalties when his name is used! Would that be priestcraft? Quote
Dravin Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 (edited) Would that be priestcraft? It'd certainly be a royalty priesthood. Edited April 29, 2011 by Dravin Quote
Backroads Posted April 29, 2011 Report Posted April 29, 2011 I know of a PirateCat on another forum, he'll have to fight over rights to the initials. Actually that would be an interesting faceoff. Pirate versus Padre. :)Oy, the courtroom battles. Quote
Guest Posted April 30, 2011 Report Posted April 30, 2011 The Prince is off the marriage bloc... No more royalties! Quote
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