Your list of things that should be free..

[Guest]

Read quote above. :)

Right. I was summarizing it in two simple sentences (the period before No should have been a comma or whatever).

And this nugget of wisdom is not free. You are required to agree with it.

:D

[Suzie]

Right. I was summarizing it in two simple sentences (the period before No should have been a comma or whatever).

And this nugget of wisdom is not free. You are required to agree with it.

:D

Anatess, I am lost now (what's new?)

This is the part I think it needs to be highlighted:

The unconditional part of the Atonement is a free gift of grace requiring no further action on our part. The conditional part, however, requires our repentance as the condition of applying mercy to our personal sins.

So if the conditional part requires something from us, is then truly "free"? I am not stating whether it is or it isn't but wondering about the question.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Suzie

[Guest]

Anatess, I am lost now (what's new?)

This is the part I think it needs to be highlighted:

So if the conditional part requires something from us, is then truly "free"? I am not stating whether it is or it isn't but wondering about the question.

The unconditional part is for our salvation.

The conditional part is for our exaltation. Is what I'm trying to say.

So, Salvation through the Atonement is Free. Make sense?

[Suzie]

The unconditional part is for our salvation.

The conditional part is for our exaltation. Is what I'm trying to say.

So, Salvation through the Atonement is Free. Make sense?

I'll think it over later, I am eating 4 slices of pizza and my brain isn't working after all that food.

[Guest]

I'll think it over later, I am eating 4 slices of pizza and my brain isn't working after all that food.

That's another one that I wish would be free...

... of calories!!! I can eat 10 slices of pizza in one sitting.

[Dravin]

Not true. You don't have to do anything/give anything to get the Atonement.

Is the atonement given to those cast down from heaven? If the third host of heaven are not partakers of the atonement then one must have chosen to follow the Father's plan and not rebelled in the pre-mortal life. In other words you had to do something.

Additionally Christ had to die to give you the freedom to partake of the Atonement. If you are going to argue that someone paying a price so you can do something means it is not free then you can not argue that the Atonement is 'free'. Not and be consistent. Remember, you typed these words:

I said... when you get to be as old as I am, you will very soon realize that not even the air you breathe is free. Somebody had to pay for you to breathe that air. And we went on to a discussion of oppression under Marcos' regime...

You are arguing that someone else paid so he can 'freely' breathe air so it is not free. The same argument applies to the Atonement. Christ paid so that we can 'freely' partake of the atonement.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Suzie]

I can eat 10 slices of pizza in one sitting.

Are you kidding?

[Suzie]

Is the atonement given to those cast down from heaven? If the third host of heaven are not partakers of the atonement then one must have chosen to follow the Father's plan and not rebelled in the pre-mortal life. In other words you had to do something.

Additionally Christ had to die to give you the freedom to partake of the Atonement. If you are going to argue that someone paying a price so you can do something means it is not free then you can not argue that the Atonement is 'free'. Not and be consistent. Remember, you typed these words:

You are arguing that someone else paid so he can 'freely' breathe air so it is not free. The same argument applies to the Atonement. Christ paid so that we can 'freely' partake of the atonement.

Wow, brilliant.

[Guest]

Are you kidding?

Not at all... and I'm only 5-foot nothing... don't get me within 100 yards of Cici's pizza...

[Guest]

Is the atonement given to those cast down from heaven? If the third host of heaven are not partakers of the atonement then one must have chosen to follow the Father's plan and not rebelled in the pre-mortal life. In other words you had to do something.

Additionally Christ had to die to give you the freedom to partake of the Atonement. If you are going to argue that someone paying a price so you can do something means it is not free then you can not argue that the Atonement is 'free'. Not and be consistent. Remember, you typed these words:

You are arguing that someone else paid so he can 'freely' breathe air so it is not free. The same argument applies to the Atonement. Christ paid so that we can 'freely' partake of the atonement.

Okay, we are only talking about earth life here.

Secondly, what I mean by free is that it is FREE - you don't need to do anything to get it.

Hence... the Atonement is the only thing on this earth that is Free.

I am saying that YOU have to pay to 'freely' breathe the air you are breathing. Not somebody else.

So, the Atonement and breathing air is not the same.

That's my point. You think that the air you breathe is free. I am saying, it is not. You are paying for it. Someway, somehow... like taxes or having to conform to an ideology... or you die (in the Marcos regime example).

Edited April 28, 2011 by anatess

[Dravin]

I am saying that YOU have to pay to 'freely' breathe the air you are breathing. Not somebody else.

You used the word "somebody" initially. Presumably because you were talking about/to a child and children take a lot of things for granted as free of cost that other people are paying for.

Some dictator might come (or as you seem to be suggesting if I go on a murderous rampage and get the death penalty) and kill me and take my life, but it is highly doubtful that I would be charged for air unless I take up SCUBA. This just highlights my point that it really depends on what you mean when you call something free. There are bucketfuls of definitions out there. For instance I can expand it and say one truly and literally pays for the air one breathes as it requires energy to move it in an out of your lungs.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Suzie]

That's my point. You think that the air you breathe is free. I am saying, it is not. You are paying for it. .

But that's not what you said:

I said... when you get to be as old as I am, you will very soon realize that not even the air you breathe is free. Somebody had to pay for you to breathe that air

Key words here: 'Somebody had to pay". Just read what you wrote carefully. Dravin is actually making a brilliant comparison to the Atonement and challenging your point of view, using your own words. It seems like you are now saying you meant something different?

[Wingnut]

I think the "air" argument is ridiculous, too. Because I live in a country where I have insured freedoms, I'm allowed to breathe freely? So in oppressed countries where the common folk don't enjoy luxuries that I do, because they're beat down by dictatorial or communist governments, their air isn't free?

Bull.

[Dravin]

I think the "air" argument is ridiculous, too. Because I live in a country where I have insured freedoms, I'm allowed to breathe freely? So in oppressed countries where the common folk don't enjoy luxuries that I do, because they're beat down by dictatorial or communist governments, their air isn't free?

Bull.

I think it just highlights how connotative such discussions are. Free is one of those words with hundreds (if not thousands) of subtle differences in meaning based on context and the person using it.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[rameumptom]

Besides the atonement (which is free), I think I'd like to be freed from the idea that things should be free.

People do not appreciate free. They take it for granted. Free housing turns into slums.

[Blackmarch]

That's another one that I wish would be free...

... of calories!!! I can eat 10 slices of pizza in one sitting.

I'd like to see you take on a papa murphy's stuffed family pizza ^.^

[Guest]

But that's not what you said:

Key words here: 'Somebody had to pay". Just read what you wrote carefully. Dravin is actually making a brilliant comparison to the Atonement and challenging your point of view, using your own words. It seems like you are now saying you meant something different?

Oh, I get where the confusion lies now!

I was talking to my kid. I work, my husband works... when they ask for McDonald's I tell them "Somebody has to pay for that McDonald's" - that is, either their dad or me or taken from their allowance. And then, of course, they have to behave for me to even think about giving it to them.

It's a phrase we use often in my family. Like a "tradition" kinda thing... You know, how like Sean Hannity always says, "In other words...". It's a Hannity thing. So, in my family, we have certain "common phrases" and "Somebody has to pay" is one of them.

When the kids were toddlers, they used to whine in the store because they want a piece of candy or a toy or something. I taught them really early that "Somebody has to pay" for whatever they want because (and here's another common phrase we use) "Candy (or toys) don't grow on trees". So, I tell them - Do you have money for that toy? I don't.

So, then my smart alecky kid says, I want this apple. It grows on trees so I can have it. I'm thinking he will be a good lawyer.

It's now expanded to - did you get good grades? Then no, you can't have that toy. So, "somebody has to pay" has gone into a wider meaning - it's not just mom and dad's money anymore. Because, they need to earn the money now too (good grades, etc.).

Edited April 28, 2011 by anatess

[Guest]

I think the "air" argument is ridiculous, too. Because I live in a country where I have insured freedoms, I'm allowed to breathe freely? So in oppressed countries where the common folk don't enjoy luxuries that I do, because they're beat down by dictatorial or communist governments, their air isn't free?

Bull.

It is not free Wingy. Even in the United States of America. You have to abide by the laws of the land - which costs you something. Your insured freedoms are insured by somebody that you are paying for to do it for you. Take away the American military/government (that you're paying for with taxes and a vote) and your air will cost you a lot more.

[Guest]

I'd like to see you take on a papa murphy's stuffed family pizza ^.^

Never heard of it.

[Blackmarch]

Never heard of it.

Oohh hmmm well lets see if we can fix that..

Papa Murphy's

and their stuffed chicken bacon pizza's are worth every cent

Edited April 28, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Suzie]

Oh, I get where the confusion lies now!

I was talking to my kid. I work, my husband works... when they ask for McDonald's I tell them "Somebody has to pay for that McDonald's" - that is, either their dad or me or taken from their allowance. And then, of course, they have to behave for me to even think about giving it to them.

It's a phrase we use often in my family. Like a "tradition" kinda thing... You know, how like Sean Hannity always says, "In other words...". It's a Hannity thing. So, in my family, we have certain "common phrases" and "Somebody has to pay" is one of them.

When the kids were toddlers, they used to whine in the store because they want a piece of candy or a toy or something. I taught them really early that "Somebody has to pay" for whatever they want because (and here's another common phrase we use) "Candy (or toys) don't grow on trees". So, I tell them - Do you have money for that toy? I don't.

So, then my smart alecky kid says, I want this apple. It grows on trees so I can have it. I'm thinking he will be a good lawyer.

It's now expanded to - did you get good grades? Then no, you can't have that toy. So, "somebody has to pay" has gone into a wider meaning - it's not just mom and dad's money anymore. Because, they need to earn the money now too (good grades, etc.).

Hmmm I understand that but I don't think it applies to that post. I don't think I am explaining myself properly so you could understand the connection you have made but it's ok.

[Guest]

Oohh hmmm well lets see if we can fix that..

Papa Murphy's

and their stuffed chicken bacon pizza's are worth every cent

Uh... it doesn't look like a pizza...

[Blackmarch]

Uh... it doesn't look like a pizza...

here this might look more pizza-y

(PS that first pizza pic has more bacon than what I usually see on em)

normally i can down a full little caesar's large pizza no problem, but i usually have hard time getting past 3/8s of one of these pizzas.

and they use a really good white sauce rather than tomato sauce on this variety.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Guest]

here this might look more pizza-y

(PS that first pizza pic has more bacon than what I usually see on em)

normally i can down a full little caesar's mediuim pizza no problem, but i usually have hard time getting past 3/8s of one of these pizzas.

and they use a really good white sauce rather than tomato sauce on this variety.

Yeah, that's more like a quiche than a pizza.

I shudder to think how many calories are there in that one slice!

It looks yummy. :)

[Blackmarch]

Yeah, that's more like a quiche than a pizza.

I shudder to think how many calories are there in that one slice!

It looks yummy. :)

A pizza version of the quiche anyways

and i don't wanna know how many calories is in a slice....

^.^