Branch President arrested, faces deportation

[Guest]

Which is even more remarkable given that Insurrection unpleasantness.

When a people want independence, they give their all to it. We gained independence from Spain only to be sold to the Americans. We finally stuck the Philippine Flag on the steps of the governor's mansion, cries of victory after 3 years of battle... only to be called American colony. It was very bittersweet.

Americans swooped in - not knowing who we are - secure in their principles of liberty and justice for all - completely ignorant of the fact that they just trampled on a liberated people - equating us to uncivilized society. It surprised them that we were an organized society, with our own tribal governments that survived 3 centuries of Spanish oppression. But, one great thing about Americans - they don't stay ignorant for too long. They actually were capable of learning. And Mark Twain did not remain silent. And his voice did not go unheard. And the Americans stayed true to their principles of liberty and justice for all. It is what defines America. Even though people - including Americans -forget about that nowadays.

[Backroads]

It is the same for America. You think you have poor people. You really don't get to understand what poor means until you serve some of them in the Philippines... or Darfur... or wherever.

And I certainly understand and respect that. It's just hard to ignore the people suffering around me in favor of those elsewhere. I can't always do both, though I know the effort should full-heartedly be made.

[Traveler]

I have a friend that served an LDS mission in the Philippines and married a lady after his mission from the Philippines. They went through all the red tape for her to become a citizen. Living in the USA the Philippine lady was far better off than any of her siblings. As time passed the mother in law grew old and became ill needing care. My friend wanted to care for her in his home. Not possible. After over 12 years of dealing with immigration and out of frustration he ask an immigration official what could be done? They suggested that the mother-in-law be brought into the USA through Mexico and to tend to her dying needs as an illegal immigrant - that was the best solution possible considering all the problems?

Should the LDS church help people? Are you kidding me? The LDS church exists to help people. Of course we should help people.

Should the LDS church break the law? Absolutely not! There is no law to prevent the LDS church from helping people - including illegal immigrants. And there should be no law preventing the church from helping people - ever.

Should the USA have open borders? What an absurd question - the question assumes to change the definition of borders. By definition borders are the boundaries of our rule of law. There is nothing to prevent any country from requesting that they have open borders with the USA - in technical terms that is called becoming a state. We are the United States of America. The peoples of other countries that want unlimited access to our country without borders can start a grass movement where-ever they are to become part of the USA. There are so many options. Let us not forget that part of the immigration agreement the USA has with other countries is dependent on the laws of that other country. If they become a state there is no problem over who is breaking (or not respecting) whose laws.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Another true story... a good one this time:

Arnel Pineda grew up in the streets of the Philippines as an orphan picking trash piles for cans that he can sell at the metal shops. On a lucky day, he'll have enough money to buy one pack of crackers that will provide him sustenance for the next 2 days. He puts the single pack of crackers in his pants pocket and protects it so it doesn't get crumbled as he scrounges trash piles for more cans.

As a teen-ager he found that his talent as a singer can actually get him a better career than scrounging trash for cans. He was able to start a small-time cover band that gets regular gigs at a restaurant every weekend. He was even able to go to Singapore to perform at a restaurant there. He has several youtube videos of his band's gigs and when Journey went looking for a lead singer again, they stumbled upon one of his youtube videos. So, one guy from Journey called him and told him to come to America to audition. Arnel Pineda was shocked beyond anything and was soooo ecstatic to have this once-in-a-lifetime-for-a-Filipino opportunity!

Big problem - you just don't hop a plane to go to America to audition... You have to go through immigration!

So, he fell in line at the embassy (you have to line up before the crack of dawn - some even camping on the steps overnight - for a chance to get a "number" that might not be called until the next day or so). He just wanted to get a tourist visa that allows him a long enough stay to get him to the audition. But even tourist visas are difficult to come by in the Philippines. So, for Arnel - it was a shot in the dark.

All he had was the emailed letter from Journey stating the date and venue of the audition. This will not usually get you anywere close to a visa. A print-out of an email is very easily faked!

Sure enough, when it was his turn to face the immigration officer, the guy takes one look at his email and sarcastically told him, "Okay, if you're really that good that you can get an audition for Journey, why don't you sing right here infront of me?"... Arnel Pineda belted out "Wheels in the sky keep on turning..." right there and everybody in the room stopped to listen! He was THAT good! The officer, impressed by his voice, STAMPED HIS TOURIST VISA APPROVED!

And the rest is history...

So, in the Philippines - if Arnel Pineda even had a very slim chance of getting to the US to get his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at the brass ring - how much more for everybody else? But, you see potatoes-pulling Mexicans all over the place... no problem.

Edited May 4, 2011 by anatess

[Traveler]

...

So, in the Philippines - if Arnel Pineda even had a very slim chance of getting to the US to get his once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at the brass ring - how much more for everybody else? But, you see potatoes-pulling Mexicans all over the place... no problem.

The problem is not just being able to get to the brass ring in the USA - the greater problem is the lack of brass rings everywhere else.

I think too many people look for a solution backwards. If everybody comes to the USA they will have no better chance at a brass ring than if they stayed in their home land - determined to make one there.

For what-ever reason our day and time has the attitude that butting in line pays off - it will only pay off when almost everybody else is not butting.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Poor people have almost no voice in many other nations. Governments are corrupt, enriching the rich and impoverishing the poor. How is a person with no education nor opportunity supposed to change his own nation? It rarely happens without educated people with money. Even in Egypt, Tunisia, etc., their revolutions are occurring in large part because of ex-pats who have returned to lead the marches.

The reality is, many come to make a living for their families. Our nation was built on the blood of immigrants. Traveler, how would your life be different if your immigrant forefathers were not allowed to come here for a chance at a better life? Think of the nations they may have come from. How many generations would it have taken to obtain such blessings had they remained behind?

My mother's line came from the Ukraine around 1900. I knew my great-grandfather who came over as a child. Guess what would have happened had they stayed? Soviet Union, Nazi Germany invasion, etc. Chances are, they would not have survived. They definitely would not have created such a good life for themselves. Even a century later, Ukrainians struggle for the basics, while my immigrant ancestors were able to create something good as Americans.

So, your "answer" is a non-answer. The Book of Mormon shows that opening up the doors to immigration ends up being a blessing in the long run.

[Guest]

The problem is not just being able to get to the brass ring in the USA - the greater problem is the lack of brass rings everywhere else.

I think too many people look for a solution backwards. If everybody comes to the USA they will have no better chance at a brass ring than if they stayed in their home land - determined to make one there.

For what-ever reason our day and time has the attitude that butting in line pays off - it will only pay off when almost everybody else is not butting.

The Traveler

This is not correct.

To work at McDonalds flipping burgers in the Philippines requires a 2-year college level and fluent spoken English. If you go to the McDonalds at Diliman, Philippines, you are being served by Med Students. Not pre-med students... Students who passed pre-med and are in the master's medical program.

There are no state-sponsored college degrees. Not even vocational ones. There are no student loans - there is no guarantee that after finishing a college degree you can get a job. Therefore, to work at McDonald's, you must have had enough money to get 2 years worth of college out of your pocket. So, it is not uncommon to find BMW's parked at the employee lot at McDonalds.

So, what does everybody else do? It's not a shock to see Bachelor's Degree'd people selling cigarettes on the downtown sidewalk. Everybody else who can't afford college work at sweatshops that Westerners are always fighting to close-down due to "unfavorable conditions". Which is really idiotic - unfavorable to who? Because, sweatshop workers making $1 a day make more money than the Bachelor's Degree'd person selling cigarettes! They can feed their families - that includes mother/father grandma/grandpa and all the siblings!

Anyway, Filipinos set their sights outside of the country. Because, it only takes ONE PERSON out of your entire clan (parents/grandparents/siblings) to work in places like Saudi Arabia or America to be able to provide sustenance for the entire clan.

Why is it like this? Because... jobs are scarce in the Philippines. Major businesses do not go to the Philippines. When you have foreigners getting kidnapped for ransom on a daily basis, nobody really wants to do business with you. So... there is a very limited number of jobs. So limited that, to weed out job applicants, McDonald's require college education.

But guess what - the Philippines is actually doing really good economically these days. Because, more and more businesses are moving out of America to the Philippines. Philippines don't charge too much tarrifs to attract more foreign businesses bringing in dollars. So yeah, it's a sad reality but the demise of the American businesses actually favor the Philippines.

So, I guess that's one way to solve your immigration problem... make it ultra difficult to get businesses to thrive in America and they'll all go to the Philippines - then there won't be a dire need for Filipinos to find jobs outside of the Philippines!

[Netgood]

The people who are cheating the immigration laws are the selfish ones. They only benefit from this breaking of the law because it we spend so much lives and treasure enforcing it to give citizens of America stability, access to welfare and jobs.

They are stealing resources like a thief. The lady in the story in the Bible was going to die with her son before Elijah came along. She did not go steal because she had a great need.

Illegal Immigrants should be excommunicated.

[MarginOfError]

The people who are cheating the immigration laws are the selfish ones. They only benefit from this breaking of the law because it we spend so much lives and treasure enforcing it to give citizens of America stability, access to welfare and jobs.

They are stealing resources like a thief. The lady in the story in the Bible was going to die with her son before Elijah came along. She did not go steal because she had a great need.

Illegal Immigrants should be excommunicated.

I think you need to take that up with the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve then

Church Supports Principles of Utah Compact on Immigration - LDS Newsroom

Immigration Response - LDS Newsroom

Editorial: A model for the nation | Deseret News

[Netgood]

I don't think people will be having a good time in the Church if they were illegal immigrants in Japan or South Korea. Those places actually care about protecting the birthright of their children and hardly allow any immigrants compared to us.

The illegals would not succeed there and be given Spanish wards.

[MarginOfError]

I don't think people will be having a good time in the Church if they were illegal immigrants in Japan or South Korea. Those places actually care about protecting the birthright of their children and hardly allow any immigrants compared to us.

The illegals would not succeed there and be given Spanish wards.

[rameumptom]

The people who are cheating the immigration laws are the selfish ones. They only benefit from this breaking of the law because it we spend so much lives and treasure enforcing it to give citizens of America stability, access to welfare and jobs.

They are stealing resources like a thief. The lady in the story in the Bible was going to die with her son before Elijah came along. She did not go steal because she had a great need.

Illegal Immigrants should be excommunicated.

I'm glad that the Lord and his prophets do not see things as you do. Perhaps you need to rethink this belief in relation to what the gospel teaches. We are to have charity and kindness for others.

The Bible also shows that when there was famine in the land, Jacob and the children of Israel went down into Egypt, where they were taken care of from the welfare system down there. They were not Egyptians, but illegal immigrants that were challenged on whether they were spies or thieves. Good thing the Lord did not excommunicate Jacob and Israel!

Jewish law stated that a hungry person could glean the fields. So, when Jesus and his apostles went through the fields on one Sabbath, they took enough to eat. This is a form of welfare, as well.

Elijah left Israel to be with the widow of Sarepta in Syria. HE was the illegal alien seeking welfare, not the other way around!

David fled Israel and lived with the Philistines for years, living off their welfare, while surreptitiously destroying Philistine cities.

Shall I go on?

The reality is: most immigrants do NOT steal from us. Most are not on welfare. Most want to work and earn their own way. The ones I work with are harder workers than most Americans are. All they would like is a legal status, so they can get medical insurance, a driver's license, and provide for their families. Right now, illegals who work are paying into the Medicare and Social Security systems, but will never see a dime of it, because they have to use a fake SS number. So, Americans are actually on welfare paid for by the illegals!

It is the American people who are selfish. Almost all Americans are from immigrant families - many formerly illegal immigrants. Immigration was our lifeblood. Immigration saved the LDS Church from being destroyed. Today, Americans are trillions of dollars in debt, money borrowed or created from nothing by the Fed to rip off other nations who have lent to us.

I love America, but am embarrassed with most Americans today, because they kick out those who desire to follow the American dream, while cheating on the dream by manipulating the dollar, walk away from their mortgages, and play God throughout the world.

If we get back to the principles in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and that of the American Forefathers, we would open up the gates of immigration, and embrace them as the Nephites embraced the Ammonites.

As Emma Lazarus wrote for the Statue of Liberty:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

[Guest]

I'm glad that the Lord and his prophets do not see things as you do. Perhaps you need to rethink this belief in relation to what the gospel teaches. We are to have charity and kindness for others.

The Bible also shows that when there was famine in the land, Jacob and the children of Israel went down into Egypt, where they were taken care of from the welfare system down there. They were not Egyptians, but illegal immigrants that were challenged on whether they were spies or thieves. Good thing the Lord did not excommunicate Jacob and Israel!

Jewish law stated that a hungry person could glean the fields. So, when Jesus and his apostles went through the fields on one Sabbath, they took enough to eat. This is a form of welfare, as well.

Elijah left Israel to be with the widow of Sarepta in Syria. HE was the illegal alien seeking welfare, not the other way around!

David fled Israel and lived with the Philistines for years, living off their welfare, while surreptitiously destroying Philistine cities.

Shall I go on?

The reality is: most immigrants do NOT steal from us. Most are not on welfare. Most want to work and earn their own way. The ones I work with are harder workers than most Americans are. All they would like is a legal status, so they can get medical insurance, a driver's license, and provide for their families. Right now, illegals who work are paying into the Medicare and Social Security systems, but will never see a dime of it, because they have to use a fake SS number. So, Americans are actually on welfare paid for by the illegals!

It is the American people who are selfish. Almost all Americans are from immigrant families - many formerly illegal immigrants. Immigration was our lifeblood. Immigration saved the LDS Church from being destroyed. Today, Americans are trillions of dollars in debt, money borrowed or created from nothing by the Fed to rip off other nations who have lent to us.

I love America, but am embarrassed with most Americans today, because they kick out those who desire to follow the American dream, while cheating on the dream by manipulating the dollar, walk away from their mortgages, and play God throughout the world.

If we get back to the principles in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and that of the American Forefathers, we would open up the gates of immigration, and embrace them as the Nephites embraced the Ammonites.

As Emma Lazarus wrote for the Statue of Liberty:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

Rame... if you weren't incouraging illegal immigration in this post, I might agree with you. There was NEVER any argument over LEGAL immigration. But to say that stopping ILLEGAL immigration makes Americans selfish is naive at best.

I will deign to say that there are more illegal immigrants paid under the table - cash, no SS required - than those with SS numbers. And, of the ones that do have SS numbers - a good percentage of them work under their own SS numbers. And we're not even counting the jobs that could have gone to an American taking them out of welfare/unemployment checks and making them productive.

And do you know how many Filipino Elijah's there are whose families are deprived of basic necessities who are trying their very best to gain legal entry into the US but CAN'T because America is maxed out on illegals? And these Filipinos even spent blood and sweat to gain a skill beyond picking potatoes so that the US will see how they can contribute to American society.

So, are you then saying that Filipino Elijah's are not worth sharing your resources?

[rameumptom]

But WHY is it illegal? There are just and unjust laws. Are our immigration laws just or not? And if not, then why do we justify ourselves to attack others for them?

Our current system makes it nearly impossible to legally immigrate here. Students who come here on Visas and graduate from college are then kicked out after graduating. They benefit China, India, Russia and other nations with the best schooling, but we then send them off to compete against America. So our immigration laws destroy our competitiveness in the world.

I've had two friends marry foreigners, one British and the other Brazilian. Five years later, neither was legally able to come here. So our laws destroy families.

We are known as the nation to welcome the poor and downtrodden. Many came here illegally a century or more ago. Yet they are now Americans, integrated and making a difference. My great-grandparents came over from the Ukraine a century ago. They were farmers in North Dakota and Western Montana. Three generations later, I served 20 years in the Air Force. I have family members who are police officers, nurses, and business owners. All because the United States had a more liberal immigration policy back then.

We blame illegals for trying to survive and make a better life for their family. Yet, we are the ones ignoring our past. Immigration stirs new blood into America. We are failing as a nation because we've forgotten our God-given role as a refuge for the poor and tired masses. Our country is collapsing because we've become narcissists, rather than Christian.

You focus on people solely from the Philippines. Yet there are people from many nations seeking to come in. We need to open up immigration to more freedom-seeking people from all nations.

So, we should not blame immigrants, legal or not, for our rotten system. Strengthen and fence the borders, yes. But then open up the gates.

Edited May 10, 2011 by rameumptom

[Guest]

But WHY is it illegal? There are just and unjust laws. Are our immigration laws just or not? And if not, then why do we justify ourselves to attack others for them?

The immigration laws are bloated by politics. It needs to be streamlined. But they are just.

America's immigration policy is dependent on productive contribution. That is - you need a skill to enter the US. That is not unreasonable at all. If you're going to enter the US just to be a burden to society, then, it is better for them to stay in their own homeland and avail of the many US humanitarian programs instead of bringing the entire American welfare system to an unsupportable level.

Our current system makes it nearly impossible to legally immigrate here.

If you ask yourself why, you will realize that the system is burdened by the standard American government red tape. It is the same red tape that causes you to wait in line for 6 hours just to get your picture taken for your driver's license. Streamline that and it will become better.

It has actually improved in the W. Bush era after INS got absorbed by Homeland Security. My mother received her green card and her American citizenship within 6 years (a few months to convert her multiple-entry tourist visa to a green card, 5 years of required stay before citizenship eligibility, then 5 months to process citizenship application). Juxtapose that to the 4 years it took my mother to just apply for her multiple-entry tourist visa back in the pre 9/11 age.

Students who come here on Visas and graduate from college are then kicked out after graduating. They benefit China, India, Russia and other nations with the best schooling, but we then send them off to compete against America. So our immigration laws destroy our competitiveness in the world.

This is not correct. I entered the USA on a student's visa. I'm still here.

After graduating, an international student is given 2 years to gain employment (with the option of another 2 years of extension if he can prove that he can support himself). If he cannot find a job, then he will have to go home. This is not unreasonable. You don't want to add these rolls to your overburdened welfare system.

I've had two friends marry foreigners, one British and the other Brazilian. Five years later, neither was legally able to come here. So our laws destroy families.

Either you were misinformed or they don't know how to apply for visas. Why do you think I say it here all the time - I have cousins, they need visas? Because - marrying an American is the fastest way to get an entry visa! If you can prove you have every intent to marry, the fiance/e (and children under 21) is illegible for fiance/e visa. That's the K-1 visa. It is a non-immigrant visa (similar to a tourist) that lets your spouse gain entry into the US for 90-days. You are expected to marry within those 90-days otherwise, the spouse (and children) goes into illegal status and can get deported. Once you get married, you then apply for the I-130 sponsorship that will give your spouse the eligibility to apply for a green card. If you are in the process of applying for I-130, your spouse can remain in the US in her current K-1 visa for as long as the government takes to process your application (last time my cousin got married to an American it took 14 months to receive the visa). And what's more - your spouse is eligible for a temporary work permit while the I-130 is in process.

What if you got married out of the country in the hometown of your spouse? Then you go ahead and file for I-130 and apply for a tourist visa for your spouse and children. These tourist visas are instant approved at the US Embassy of that country.

These rules do not apply to countries marked as terrorist threat - for example - Iran. They have a different processing route.

We are known as the nation to welcome the poor and downtrodden. Many came here illegally a century or more ago. Yet they are now Americans, integrated and making a difference. My great-grandparents came over from the Ukraine a century ago. They were farmers in North Dakota and Western Montana. Three generations later, I served 20 years in the Air Force. I have family members who are police officers, nurses, and business owners. All because the United States had a more liberal immigration policy back then.

What use is a country ruled by law if you encourage them to break it??? Is this what America has become? A country where you spit on the laws because you don't like it? This is not the same America that broke the shackles of slavery through Civil War to make people conform to the laws of the land!

We blame illegals for trying to survive and make a better life for their family. Yet, we are the ones ignoring our past. Immigration stirs new blood into America. We are failing as a nation because we've forgotten our God-given role as a refuge for the poor and tired masses. Our country is collapsing because we've become narcissists, rather than Christian.

You focus on people solely from the Philippines. Yet there are people from many nations seeking to come in. We need to open up immigration to more freedom-seeking people from all nations.

This is completely incorrect sir! We blame illegals for breaking laws. You can find a better life for your family without having to break a law. That's what EVERYBODY ELSE does!

Immigration stirs new blood into America, yes! And you got a Filipino fronting Journey and singing Fantine on Les Miserables. But they're LEGAL immigrants!

You are not failing as a nation because you don't take care of your poor. You are failing as a nation because you have an overburdened welfare system supporting people who would rather remain poor than be productive citizens - because they make more money from welfare checks than picking pototoes. So, they give the potatoes to illegal immigrants while the Americans wallow in their own "free ride".

I am completely not focused on just the Philippines! I HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE on the matter and it is a FILIPINO experience. I'm not going to talk to you about Zimbabwe when I AM A LEGAL IMMIGRANT from the Philippines!

Okay, how about this. I'm a programmer. In my previous workplace - only 2 people in my ENTIRE department are American citizens. Everybody else (we were a group of 60) were LEGAL immigrants - over half of which are from India. There are so many LEGAL immigrants from India here that one person from our ward lives on a street where there are only 3 non-Indian houses...

So, we should not blame immigrants, legal or not, for our rotten system. Strengthen and fence the borders, yes. But then open up the gates.

No, you don't blame immigrants for your rotten system. You blame them for breaking the law.

You know, this is EXACTLY like saying - I am not going to wear those stupid garments because they are rotten to wear on 100 degree humid Florida weather.

Either you have a country ruled by law or you have a stupid constitution good only as paper weight. You can't have it both ways.

Edited May 10, 2011 by anatess

[Guest]

I am flabergasted that I, a Filipino, find it necessary to defend American law.

This is just so crazy to me.

[Backroads]

Oh, wow...

I'll just add a quick opinion.

Adjust/streamline the laws, cut away some of the red tape, I'm down with that. I support legal immigration and always will. My heart goes out to those that have troubles.

I think Rammy is preferring an adjustment of laws rather than full-on supporting illegal immigration>

[Guest]

Oh, wow...

I'll just add a quick opinion.

Adjust/streamline the laws, cut away some of the red tape, I'm down with that. I support legal immigration and always will. My heart goes out to those that have troubles.

I think Rammy is preferring an adjustment of laws rather than full-on supporting illegal immigration>

Yes, but he does justify illegal immigration.

I'm fine with civil disobedience for a just cause. I don't agree that this is one of them, especially for the reasons that Rame presented.

[rameumptom]

But the immigration laws are NOT just nor sensible. We graduate thousands of foreigners from our best schools every year. And because of our current immigration policies, they must then go home. How does that help America? We are sending the best and brightest away from our shores? Chinese, Russian and Indian scientists and scholars are already out-doing us in technology, science, medicine, business and many other areas.

Anatess, how much of this part of the issue allows for the legal immigration of the smartest to come here? It doesn't. Illegals from South America are not competing for jobs with Filipinos with college degrees. They are doing the lower end work, not the high end work.

Microsoft and other companies beg for high tech Visas to increase, so they can hire more people here. We don't do it, because we think we're stealing jobs from those born in America, who have not bothered going to college! Filipinos can't legally come here because America's immigration laws are unjust and stupid, not because of Mexican day laborers.

We need to protect our borders physically to prevent drug dealers, drugs and terrorists from coming illegally across the border. Guess what? Our current system isn't doing a very good job of it. Arizona, in desperation, is having to enact its own laws to protect itself from the onslaught. Not from the onslaught of good people, but from the onslaught of criminals. This clearly needs to be fixed. But the current system isn't doing it. It is unjust. It won't protect our borders from real dangers, and won't allow the states to protect themselves, either.

With a fixed system. many more trained Filipinos could come here and work. They could improve their lives AND help America become better. But it is also true of the unskilled worker in Mexico or Honduras. Why should we have hundreds of businesses and factories popping up on the Mexican side of the border, where they make things very cheap with slave labor to sell to the USA, and possibly be a front for drug cartels and terrorists, when we can have those factories and businesses here in the USA, employing those same Mexicans for a higher wage? This would benefit everyone. It would benefit our tax coffers.

Our system is unfair, unjust, and broken. The Republicans are right that the borders need to be guarded. The Democrats are right that we need to embrace immigrants as our life blood. The Libertarians are completely right on this issue, as they believe in liberty and inviting others to join us in liberty.

This IS an issue of Civil Disobedience. Arizona's Republican governor is showing civil disobedience in passing laws to protect their border. The Church has shown a wise center course, where we can embrace the good people among the illegals, while getting rid of the dangerous criminals.

Anatess, you are not defending America in your argument. You are defending a broken law. I am defending the Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States. The Founding Fathers would be alarmed at this law. It breaks so many of our basic and inalienable rights. Of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, it definitely threatens Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness by preventing others from coming here to be free; and it endangers Life by allowing terrorists and drug dealers in.

I don't want anyone coming here illegally. But given our current broken laws, I cannot blame them for breaking them. If it was a choice of escaping my current circumstances or having my family starve, I would choose entering the country illegally, also.

[Suzie]

But the immigration laws are NOT just nor sensible. .

This could be said of other laws, the point is STILL the law and needs to be respected. I would also like to point out that there seems to be some people who are against immigrants (brown skinned ones particularly)(regardless of their legal status) and that's just plain racist. An illegal immigrant is an ILLEGAL immigrant, whether they're brown skinned or are white with blue eyes makes absolutely no difference to me.

[Guest]

But the immigration laws are NOT just nor sensible. We graduate thousands of foreigners from our best schools every year. And because of our current immigration policies, they must then go home. How does that help America? We are sending the best and brightest away from our shores? Chinese, Russian and Indian scientists and scholars are already out-doing us in technology, science, medicine, business and many other areas.

Rame... I don't know where you are getting your information from! It is JUST and it is SENSIBLE. It just needs to be more efficient!

I already told you about the 2 year (possibly 4 year) rule. What do you do with your "brightest" non-American graduates who can't get a job? Put them up for welfare?

By the way - I just graduated from UCF last week. In my group of friends - there are 2 international students. BOTH of them went home to Saudi Arabia the day after we graduated. Not because America kicked them out - because they WANT to go home. They came to America to get international training to bring home.

One thing is for certain - if you got something America wants, you're staying. I got an entire family of nurses and physical therapists in America to prove that point. And me too - I'm living proof of that!

Anatess, how much of this part of the issue allows for the legal immigration of the smartest to come here? It doesn't.

Illegals from South America are not competing for jobs with Filipinos with college degrees. They are doing the lower end work, not the high end work.

I've been trying to explain this to you... It actually affects it pretty good. All visa applicants except for relatives-sponsorship (spouse/mother/children) are issued by number of available visas. The number of available visas are determined by Department of Labor and census. They take the number that are already in America (through legal or illegal means) bounce that with the labor need, then issue the visa for the difference. Therefore, a skilled worker who gained their skill through the American Public School System by illegal status just deprived a skilled worker from gaining a LEGAL entry visa.

In addition, illegals from anywhere are competing for jobs that the people in your welfare system could have gotten.

Microsoft and other companies beg for high tech Visas to increase, so they can hire more people here. We don't do it, because we think we're stealing jobs from those born in America, who have not bothered going to college! Filipinos can't legally come here because America's immigration laws are unjust and stupid, not because of Mexican day laborers.

Have you seen the unemployment rate lately? Do you want to know how many of those unemployed are high-tech workers? It is so sad that they even made a movie out of it - the one titled Office Space.

We need to protect our borders physically to prevent drug dealers, drugs and terrorists from coming illegally across the border. Guess what? Our current system isn't doing a very good job of it. Arizona, in desperation, is having to enact its own laws to protect itself from the onslaught. Not from the onslaught of good people, but from the onslaught of criminals. This clearly needs to be fixed. But the current system isn't doing it. It is unjust. It won't protect our borders from real dangers, and won't allow the states to protect themselves, either.

That is a non-sequitur that has nothing to do with our discussion of illegal immigration.

Your current system is bloated by politics... a lot of which has to do with the emotional guilt bondage Americans put on themselves... it's a good vote getter.

With a fixed system. many more trained Filipinos could come here and work. They could improve their lives AND help America become better. But it is also true of the unskilled worker in Mexico or Honduras. Why should we have hundreds of businesses and factories popping up on the Mexican side of the border, where they make things very cheap with slave labor to sell to the USA, and possibly be a front for drug cartels and terrorists, when we can have those factories and businesses here in the USA, employing those same Mexicans for a higher wage? This would benefit everyone. It would benefit our tax coffers.

Another one of those un-related reasoning... Businesses are popping up OUTSIDE of America because it is cheaper to do business there. NOTHING at all to do with immigration. Why would a business employ somebody for a higher wage when they can get the same value at a lower one? If you want the price of a pencil to remain at 10 cents apiece, you buy it from China!

Our system is unfair, unjust, and broken.

Yes, it is unfair and unjust to legal immigrants to turn a blind eye on the illegal ones. It is broken and needs to be fixed, but not for the reasons you are presenting.

The Republicans are right that the borders need to be guarded. The Democrats are right that we need to embrace immigrants as our life blood. The Libertarians are completely right on this issue, as they believe in liberty and inviting others to join us in liberty.

I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, cat-lover, or dog-lover. They all believe in closed borders (except for a few fringe-people out there). And they all believe in embracing immigration. Those are common cries from across political spectrum. And none of them embrace illegal immigration. The immigration bill was a McCain-Kennedy bill - Republican and Democrat both... it died on the Senate floor.

This IS an issue of Civil Disobedience. Arizona's Republican governor is showing civil disobedience in passing laws to protect their border. The Church has shown a wise center course, where we can embrace the good people among the illegals, while getting rid of the dangerous criminals.

Sorry - MAKING A LAW is not Civil Disobedience. It is improving on a lacking system - like I said, the immigration bill died on the Senate floor.

The Church has done what the Church always does - abide by the laws of the land as it stretches its arms in compassion.

Anatess, you are not defending America in your argument. You are defending a broken law. I am defending the Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States. The Founding Fathers would be alarmed at this law. It breaks so many of our basic and inalienable rights. Of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, it definitely threatens Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness by preventing others from coming here to be free; and it endangers Life by allowing terrorists and drug dealers in.

No, Rame... I am defending America's system of rule of law. You are not defending the Constitution of the United States if your idea of defending it is to encourage people to break it.

I don't want anyone coming here illegally. But given our current broken laws, I cannot blame them for breaking them. If it was a choice of escaping my current circumstances or having my family starve, I would choose entering the country illegally, also.

This is a sad statement. It sounds heroic and wonderful... but you clearly have no idea what it means to starve. The Bible never said - Thou Shalt Not Steal Unless You are Starving. For what does a man gain when, by saving himself, he loses his soul?

And that really is the beacon of freedom that America exemplifies. Because, in America - if you don't like the law, you don't break it... you CHANGE IT. Sir Thomas Moore wouldn't have written that book if he lived in America. That ability to change the rule of law for betterment of society is what all the freedom-seekers look up to.

Edited May 10, 2011 by anatess

[rameumptom]

I'm getting my information by having studied the immigration laws, and studied the discussions given by various politicians, commentators, and scholars. I'm not encouraging anyone to break the laws that are Constitutional. But our immigration laws go against the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, therefore it should and must be fought against. Our Church leaders are not telling illegal immigrants to go back home, but are giving them temple recommends and calling them as branch presidents. Anatess, are you prepared to call President Monson out for breaking the law of the land? Be my guest, because as you condemn me, you also condemn the Brethren for taking the same approach and having the same belief.

And just because something is a law does not mean it must be respected. We used to have Jim Crow laws throughout the South (and some areas of the north). Should we have all respected those laws? Should I have insisted blacks sit in the back of the bus? How about they drink out of "colored only" water fountains? Should blacks not have the right to go to the same restaurant as me, simply because there was a law? Should we have encouraged the police arresting Martin Luther King jr in Birmingham? How about the use of police dogs and fire hoses at the Selma Bridge? After all, that would be the way to fight illegal Civil Disobedience, isn't it? To march with Martin Luther King jr would have been to encourage illegal activity and law breaking, if we hold your statements true in all matters.

How about slavery? Would you have been for returning escaped slaves back to their masters in 1859?

If we're going to have a sensible discussion, then let's start by having everyone actually study about these things, instead of making a decision off of a 30 second news byte from Fox News, shall we?

So far, we've been told that the immigration laws are just and sensible, but need to be changed. Why change them if they are just and sensible? What is sensible about laws that cause the turmoil I brought up concerning sending away college grads back to their own countries? Or not allowing Filipinos with college degrees from coming here? Or not allowing a married couple to legally be here together, when one is born an American? Or not protecting the border and not allowing Arizona to protect itself? If you can show how those are sensible and just rulings, THEN I'll believe that our current law is sensible and just. Otherwise, let's not pretend that the law is sensible and just, simply because someone says it is.

Even the Church agrees that these are not sensible and just laws, but that they require major fixing. Are you going to ignore the Church's direction on this?

Oh, and Anatess, please do not speak down to me. You do not know me. I know about starvation. I saw it for two years in Bolivia, a country that is worse off than the Philippines. I don't know how we can eat steaks while telling starving people they cannot come here to feed their families. That is not only insane, it is unchristian.

I am not telling anyone to steal. I'm wanting to let them work and feed their families. A nation like ours has a responsibility to keep its doors as far open as possible to take care and bless as many people as possible. The resources of the earth do not belong to the United States. They belong to God. We are not good stewards if we turn away the poor and needy.

From a Christian, LDS, Libertarian, Democratic, Republican, or any other righteous perspective, these laws are terrible. I will not stand before God and have to explain to him why I allowed His children to starve, simply to support a bad law.

I would have marched against slavery and Jim Crow laws, and I will civilly disobey this travesty as well. It is the right thing and the Christian thing to do.

[Guest]

I'm getting my information by having studied the immigration laws, and studied the discussions given by various politicians, commentators, and scholars. I'm not encouraging anyone to break the laws that are Constitutional. But our immigration laws go against the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, therefore it should and must be fought against. Our Church leaders are not telling illegal immigrants to go back home, but are giving them temple recommends and calling them as branch presidents. Anatess, are you prepared to call President Monson out for breaking the law of the land? Be my guest, because as you condemn me, you also condemn the Brethren for taking the same approach and having the same belief.

How did President Monson break the law of the land???

How did I condemn anyone???

Last time I checked, it was not against the law to give an illegal immigrant a temple recommend.

Last time I checked, it was not lawfully required for American citizens to rat out illegal immigrants. They do give out $400 incentive in California though.

And just because something is a law does not mean it must be respected. We used to have Jim Crow laws throughout the South (and some areas of the north). Should we have all respected those laws? Should I have insisted blacks sit in the back of the bus? How about they drink out of "colored only" water fountains? Should blacks not have the right to go to the same restaurant as me, simply because there was a law? Should we have encouraged the police arresting Martin Luther King jr in Birmingham? How about the use of police dogs and fire hoses at the Selma Bridge? After all, that would be the way to fight illegal Civil Disobedience, isn't it? To march with Martin Luther King jr would have been to encourage illegal activity and law breaking, if we hold your statements true in all matters.

How about slavery? Would you have been for returning escaped slaves back to their masters in 1859?

THAT was my point before. Slavery got eliminated by the North waging war against the South to ABIDE BY THE LAW.

You completely twisted that one. It's okay. You're allowed.

But don't tell me that if YOU find a law unjust, you should go ahead and break it! Because, my friend, THAT LAW was put in place by Americans - not some dictatorship. You don't think it's a good law... CHANGE IT or find legal ways to go around it. There are a lot of people that think the Tax Code is unjust and unfair. Do you think they should not pay taxes too?

If we're going to have a sensible discussion, then let's start by having everyone actually study about these things, instead of making a decision off of a 30 second news byte from Fox News, shall we?

EXCUSE ME! I LIVED THROUGH THAT LAW. I had to study that stupid thing that is only eclipsed in complexity by the Tax Code just so I can come to America... I guess I should have just saved my money and sweat and broke the darned thing.

You think I got my green card by listening to 30-second Fox News Sound Bytes?

You think I speak down to you? HOW did I do that exactly? Telling me - an immigrant, who is not even a conservative - about Fox News sound bytes is the exact defintion of talking down to somebody.

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your post. It's your country. Do what you want to do with it.

Edited May 10, 2011 by anatess

[Guest]

Okay, here, just so you know I'm just not your regular armchair QB on immigration, I actually worked to get that McCain-Kennedy bill adjusted to pass Congress. This is not some issue I just pay lip-service to. Like I said, I have lots of cousins... they need visas.

I posted my thoughts on this matter right here on lds.net:

I'm about the only one in my entire family who saw potential in McCain-Kennedy bill.

It was great! The only problem I saw with that bill is the eligibility of an illegal immigrant who applied for documentation by paying the fine to have a path to citizenship. I don't agree with that.

So, here is the bill in a nutshell:

1.) Tighten security in all borders (increase border patrols, build additional fencing, etc.)

2.) All illegal immigrants currently in the US can apply for the new Z-visa by paying a fine of x thousand dollars.

3.) A new Y-visa will be issued to "guest workers" (supposedly unskilled workers) with an expiration date of 2 years.

4.) Z-visa holders will be illegible for citizenship if they are of good character (no crime), completes a high-school education, and has been in the US constinuously for 5 years.

Besides #4, I like the bill.

This is my version of it:

* Y and Z visas should not be eligible for welfare or any federal entitlement/aid programs (including federal grants). States may have their own welfare systems support Y and Z visa holders if they want - it's up to them.

* Z visas will only be issued up until 2 years after the bill is passed. Tightening of the borders will have to be completed by then.

* Federal immigration police need to step up in the arrests of illegal immigrants. Fines for hiring illegal immigrants will be steep, rewards for reporting illegal immigrants increased, all illegal immigrants in the penal system need to be deported immediately.

Why am I in support of the Z-visa (also called amnesty regardless of how strongly McCain insists it is not amnesty - let's call an apple an apple, shall we?):

- I have several friends currently in the US illegally. There's quite a bit of illegal Filipinos hiding in California!

- If I can't even find these people, how much more for the police?

- These guys are like moles - they burrow and burrow. The harder you look for them, the deeper they burrow.

- Therefore, getting them out of the system would be a costly and time-consuming endeavor. They are living in the US, gaining access to US systems including welfare because they are undocumented and can hide good. They steal documents or make fake ones and get voter's registration cards even!

- The least costly way to get them all documented is to give them an incentive to go out in the open and get documented! Fine them X number of dollars to get a Z-visa which will give them more freedom to find better jobs. They will now be in the system and can be better controlled. All undocumented workers dream of becoming "legal". They will do the best they can to get that document. The money you get from the fines, you can use to hire more border patrols and build fences!

- Illegal activity cannot be rewarded with citizenship. That's full pardon. I don't agree with that.

[rameumptom]

THAT was my point before. Slavery got eliminated by the North waging war against the South to ABIDE BY THE LAW.

Actually, no. Slavery was not eliminated in this way. The South was abiding by the nation's laws, which allowed slavery. The North began an incursion into the South, forcing many rules and laws down their throats. The South felt that slavery was also about to be done away with, and so they chose to secede. Now, I'm not pro-South in any way at all. However, the North actually did break the law by many of its actions against the South. Lincoln broke the law by suspending certain Constitutional rights, such as writ of habeas corpus.

Of course, Thomas Jefferson felt that going against bad laws was an important concept of the American ideal. He stated that we needed a revolution every generation or so (not necessarily a violent one). As it is, we ended up with an America precisely because people went against the laws. They broke laws when they dumped someone else's tea into the Boston Harbor. They broke laws by refusing to pay taxes. They railroaded mayors and even a sitting governor out of his home - all against the law.

Just over a century ago, robber barons ran this nation. They had governors and presidents breaking up attempts at unionizing and striking. These people were protesting conditions such as child labor laws, dangerous work environments, etc. Should they have just sat quietly back and obeyed laws they could never overcome in any other way?

Again, you did not address the Jim Crow Laws. How were those to be overturned without civil disobedience? Do you condemn the Underground Railroad for helping escaped slaves?

If Hitler rises to power, how do the Jews elect a better leader if they are not given the vote? And how can immigrants help change the rules if they do not have a voice against such a massive government that doesn't even listen to its own people now?

Peaceful revolution, as Gandhi taught, is well respected in this country. Many great things have occurred here because of it. And, sometimes peaceful revolution is not enough, as we saw in the American revolution and in the Civil War. Both were brought about because bad laws were stifling the nation. Peaceful means were unable to bring about a change, so war ensued.

In the fights for Women's Rights and Civil Rights, we saw civil disobedience bring to pass some great changes in the nation.

You may not understand this, Anatess, but Civil Disobedience is an American right and tradition. It was taught by Henry David Thoreau, and is still taught in high school and college political and philosophy classes everywhere.

You are not the only person here arguing against these things. Some have been more vocal, without knowledge of what they are speaking about. However, the concept that we just need to enforce the laws on the books does not help your cousins. Even if we rid ourselves of the 12-20 million illegals here (which at the current rate would take more than a generation, if there are no more coming over the border), there's no guarantee they'll allow your cousins in.

Immigration policy must change, as well as other policies. The way many of our laws are set up in economics, etc., we sending jobs elsewhere. I've mentioned some of them before. If we were to remove most of government's hold on our lives and businesses, we would see many jobs return here. There would be jobs for both the educated and uneducated. Imagine if we paid down our $14 Trillion dollar debt, and got out of over-taxing anything and everything. Imagine if the feds got out of welfare, education, and other areas of our lives. Imagine if they left such things to the states and local governments to do/not do something about. Freedom would surge, and with it the ability to bring more prosperity.

We can absorb not only the illegals now here, but many millions of more people. We just have to get government out of the way of everything. And that is going to require some civil disobedience.

Thoreau's Civil Disobedience - with annotated text