Question about Moroni.


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I understand that there are more plates out there. While just reading the testimony of Joseph Smith he states that he was shown by angel Moroni were the plates were at. He states " on the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable siz, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middel part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth." Having removed the earth, i obtained a lever, which i got fixed under the edge of the sone, and with a little exertion raised it up.." " I looked in and there indeed did i behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger.". I have to believe this account. In addition to this there might have been a cave with the rest of the plates.

The cave you're referring to is probably the one shown in a vision/dream. But yes there are other records (we find such findings like the dead sea scrolls to be quite exciting). As for things like the sword of Laban. the chestplate, and the urim and thummim... we'll find them when God lets us find them.
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  • 3 weeks later...

[*]There is no very strong evidence that Joseph Smith himself ever referred to the hill where he got the plates as "the hill Cumorah", though his mother Lucy records that he referred to his local area as "Cumorah" and the large hill as "the hill of Cumorah". Many LDS scholars and apologists today suggest that the Book of Mormon "hill Cumorah" was a completely different place, probably located in Central America, with no attachment to the upstate New York location. (This is known colloquially as the "two-Cumorah theory".)

Doesn´t it say clearly in the scriptures that the hill where he found the plates is the same hill of the last battle? I´m a bit confused how all mormon movies, cartoons, videos and paintings show mezoamerican indians and settings - if the actual hill is in New york? Didnt JS himself say it took place somewhere around the great lakes?

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Doesn´t it say clearly in the scriptures that the hill where he found the plates is the same hill of the last battle?

Not that I recall. I admit, I may have simply missed that fact all these years of studying the Book of Mormon, but I do not believe any such thing is said.

I´m a bit confused how all mormon movies, cartoons, videos and paintings show mezoamerican indians and settings - if the actual hill is in New york? Didnt JS himself say it took place somewhere around the great lakes?

I believe that Joseph Smith never identified the places of any of the Book of Mormon narrative. Please do not put much stock in Book of Mormon cartoons or any other videos or paintings or whatever. Those are meant to represent the scriptures, and are not themselves scripture. Arnold Friberg was a talented painter, but he never claimed to be a revelator. The immense amount of metal in the European-style swords and armor in his paintings don't ring particularly true to me.

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I believe that Joseph Smith never identified the places of any of the Book of Mormon narrative. Please do not put much stock in Book of Mormon cartoons or any other videos or paintings or whatever. Those are meant to represent the scriptures, and are not themselves scripture. Arnold Friberg was a talented painter, but he never claimed to be a revelator. The immense amount of metal in the European-style swords and armor in his paintings don't ring particularly true to me.

It is as you say, a side effect of culture not revelation. I suspect the tendency to think a large civilization naturally draws people to think Mesoamerica. The thing is all it takes is someone to start the trend, you get your first batch of artists who depict Nephites and Lamanites in a certain way and once it is established following artists follow suite. Just think about how Christ is depicted, it is remarkably consistent but it's not like they've all sat down and painted a portrait while looking at him, they're influenced by the art that came before.

Edited by Dravin
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I suspect the tendency to think a large civilization naturally draws people to think Mesoamerica.

I think this is an important point that should be addressed. During the time period of The Book of Mormon, Mesoamerica is the *only* place in the western hemisphere that had the large cities and population sizes that The Book of Mormon requires. The Hopewell are the Indians who lived in the Great Lakes area during The Book of Mormon but lived in small villages that only numbered a couple hundred people at most, with a population density so low that they average about 1 person per square mile in the heart of their culture. Compare this to the large cities inhabited by thousands and tens of thousands of people in The Book of Mormon. That is something that needs to be looked at seriously when determining an opinion on BOM geography.

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Doesn´t it say clearly in the scriptures that the hill where he found the plates is the same hill of the last battle? I´m a bit confused how all mormon movies, cartoons, videos and paintings show mezoamerican indians and settings - if the actual hill is in New york? Didnt JS himself say it took place somewhere around the great lakes?

The theory of 2 Cumorahs would answer this question. If the last battles were fought in Mesoamerica, then the vision of the other plates would not be in in the New York Cumorah but the Mesoamerican one. Remember, Moroni and his armies were pushed northward when they were finally destroyed. Since the Lamanites destroyed any believer, it would make sense that he travelled away from them which would place him even farther North. Moroni travelled for decades before he actually deposited the plates in New York which would give him plenty of time to walk from Mesoamerica to New York. This same distance has been was traversed by a stranded sailor in less than a year, so it is very possible.

Joseph Smith placed The Book of Mormon in the US, Canada, Mesoamerica and South America. Some people like to say that Joseph Smith agrees with their theory on BOM geography, but fail to mention that he also contradicts their theory elsewhere. Since the Church has stated that BOM geography has not been revealed, I believe that covers Joseph Smith as well. I believe that he found parallels with cultures, peoples, artifacts, etc... as he came across new information. He never claimed BOM events without first reading about ancient cultures first, and then drawing a parallel.

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Imagine being on the run from a whole nation of people after your hide. Now when exactly are you going to sit down and chisel out a little bit of how you are getting along? This is a spiritual record not a diary we are talking about.

Besides that we dont know that he did not make a record of it. The part of the plates translated was a small portion of the total plates.

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On the run? did the lamanites know there was still one little nephite still alive? i thought he had survived unnoticed? Mormon buried them in the hill where the battle was, right? But then what? Does it say what moroni did with the last few chapters he wrote?

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Moroni did write during his years of travel, but he was all alone and probably not much to write about. His last words were intended to bring people to Christ. He said:

Moroni 1:1,4 Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me....Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

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On the run? did the lamanites know there was still one little nephite still alive? i thought he had survived unnoticed? Mormon buried them in the hill where the battle was, right? But then what? Does it say what moroni did with the last few chapters he wrote?

No, the Lamanites were not aware of Moroni. He said "I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me."

Mormon 6:6 says that Mormon buried *some* plates in the hill Cumorah, but not all of them.

"And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon...made this record [the plates of Mormon] out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

This was the same hill called "Ramah" by the Jaredites as noted in Ether 15:11.

As stated in my above post, Moroni wrote the last 10 chapters and put them on the Gold plates prior to burying them in the New York Cumorah.

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