My Brother's Keeper

[JudoMinja]

I live in an apartment building and a couple days ago overheard one of my neighbors arguing in the middle of the night. It was loud and heated, but sounded under control. I know fighting is a normal and even healthy (if done properly) part of a marriage and most any relationship, but I just could not allow myself to go back to sleep while they were still fighting. It was far too nerve-wracking, as I kept wondering if the fight was going to escalate. I had my phone on hand, ready to dial 911 in case it got bad. I was afraid if I went back to sleep and ignored it, someone would end up getting hurt when I could have prevented it.

What I'm wondering is, when something like this happens, when is it a good idea to call the police? I've been the abusee before, and the few times one of my neighbors called the cops it didn't really help much. And, of course, I don't want to drag police all the way over to my building for a false alarm. What if it is just a normal, heated fight? How do you know when its time to call in the calvary? Then, what if it is a bad fight, but calling 911 just ends up making it worse?

I've already called the police on someone in my building before for a situation that obviously needed intervention. This neighbor ended up getting evicted over illegal drug use. Thing is, I'm not exactly in the best neighborhood, and I fear that if people start seeing me as the "nark" they'll find ways to cause problems for me. So, part of the reason I am so uncertain is self-preservation. Mostly though, if it seems like cops need to be called, that is what I'm going to do, even if it does mean neighbors end up giving me a hard time. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if someone got hurt when I could have prevented it.

So if you hear neighbors fighting, how do you know when it is a situation to just leave alone compared to one that needs interference?

[Jennarator]

I think you can hear a difference in the sceaming and yelling when pain is involled.

I know emotional abuse can be as bad, if not worse than physical, but you can talk in private with the neighbor the next day if that is going on. I would listen for the screams of pain.

Good luck!!

[Soulsearcher]

I've already called the police on someone in my building before for a situation that obviously needed intervention. This neighbor ended up getting evicted over illegal drug use. Thing is, I'm not exactly in the best neighborhood, and I fear that if people start seeing me as the "nark" they'll find ways to cause problems for me. So, part of the reason I am so uncertain is self-preservation. Mostly though, if it seems like cops need to be called, that is what I'm going to do, even if it does mean neighbors end up giving me a hard time. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if someone got hurt when I could have prevented it.

Think this can tie into your morality thread. Where is the line drawn between saving someone else and saving you're own neck? What are you willing to accept so others don't turn on you? Are you willing to hesitate following what you know is right because what might happen to your own safety?

[JudoMinja]

Think this can tie into your morality thread. Where is the line drawn between saving someone else and saving you're own neck? What are you willing to accept so others don't turn on you? Are you willing to hesitate following what you know is right because what might happen to your own safety?

Good point, and this did play a major role in me hesitating to call the cops. It is important to keep myself and my son safe, so for minor issues I might let calling the cops slide. However, if I knew the safety of someone in my building was in jeapordy and I could help them, I would not hesitate. Just, how do I know? And how do I know calling the police will actually help?

Then again, I don't even know how to recognize when fighting is healthy. I just hear the yelling and immediately think someone is going to end up getting hurt.

I lived in an apartment building with my ex, and sometimes the neighbors called the cops on him. This would, however, only grant me a temporary repreive. I was too afraid to tell the cops the truth about what he was doing, because I didn't want him sent to jail. I had been manipulated into believing that I needed him and could not get by without his help. I felt too vulnerable.

I had one neighbor that physically came up and asked if she could watch the baby (2 weeks old at the time) to give us a chance to cool down when she heard us fighting. That led me to thinking of her in the future, when I fled the building in the middle of a cold, rainy night. When I had to come back but was too afraid to buzz my now ex, I buzzed her instead, so that I could get back in the building. She then came up and tried to talk to us together. It seemed like it helped at first... but the interference just upset him more.

So hears what I'm worried could happen:

1. I call the cops and there really is no serious problem. They were having a healthy fight, and others in the building find out I was the one who called and label me a "nark" and start giving me trouble.

2. I call the cops and there IS a problem, but interference just causes it to escalate.

Maybe I should just make an effort to get to know this neighbor personally, so I can find ways to help without resorting to calling the police, if help is needed? But how would I go about doing that? ... I'm terrible at socializing and making new friends.

[Soulsearcher]

Good point, and this did play a major role in me hesitating to call the cops. It is important to keep myself and my son safe, so for minor issues I might let calling the cops slide. However, if I knew the safety of someone in my building was in jeapordy and I could help them, I would not hesitate. Just, how do I know? And how do I know calling the police will actually help?

Then again, I don't even know how to recognize when fighting is healthy. I just hear the yelling and immediately think someone is going to end up getting hurt.

I lived in an apartment building with my ex, and sometimes the neighbors called the cops on him. This would, however, only grant me a temporary repreive. I was too afraid to tell the cops the truth about what he was doing, because I didn't want him sent to jail. I had been manipulated into believing that I needed him and could not get by without his help. I felt too vulnerable.

I had one neighbor that physically came up and asked if she could watch the baby (2 weeks old at the time) to give us a chance to cool down when she heard us fighting. That led me to thinking of her in the future, when I fled the building in the middle of a cold, rainy night. When I had to come back but was too afraid to buzz my now ex, I buzzed her instead, so that I could get back in the building. She then came up and tried to talk to us together. It seemed like it helped at first... but the interference just upset him more.

So hears what I'm worried could happen:

1. I call the cops and there really is no serious problem. They were having a healthy fight, and others in the building find out I was the one who called and label me a "nark" and start giving me trouble.

2. I call the cops and there IS a problem, but interference just causes it to escalate.

Maybe I should just make an effort to get to know this neighbor personally, so I can find ways to help without resorting to calling the police, if help is needed? But how would I go about doing that? ... I'm terrible at socializing and making new friends.

All good points and without trying to derail this thread, you've just pointed out where self preservation might over rule absolute morality. An extreme case and one that we hope can never happen, but very few of the people preaching the strong moral stance seem to be willing to sacrifice their family to keep their morals. Given the choice of acting and costing their family and keeping their family safe at the cost of a bit of moral high ground i tend to usually see the latter happen.

LOL sorry for the derail, back on topic.

[marshac]

I wouldn't call the cops unless I heard someone getting beat up- yelling is one thing, physical violence is another. As soon as you call the cops out on a domestic, someone is probably going to jail (most likely the guy), and their life is about to get a whole lot more complicated. Don't bring that hammer down on someone unless you're positive someone is in real danger... if it's just a verbal dispute- well, some people can't communicate effectively, so they resort to yelling and screaming.

[Elphaba]

I can so relate, Judo, particularly if there are children in the home. Even if the violence is just verbal, the children are in the midst of an abusive attack, and having grown up with that myself, I cannot listen to that happening and do nothing. I know those children are beyond terrified, and how this damages them for life.

Twice I have called the police, both times decades ago. In one case the wife/mother yelled at me the next day (something that is very common and very understandable if you comprehend the dynamics of abuse). In the second case, no one said anything to me, and the family moved away. I have no idea if my calling the police had anything to do with that, but I doubt it.

The thing is, I knew I had only stopped the abuse in the moment, and that was gut-wrenching. Seeing those children day in and day out, knowing how they lived lives of horrible suffering, threatened to drag me under. I can barely think about it today.

But, to be honest, I’d do it all over again. I would not be able to not do it, even knowing it would do no good in the long run. I simply cannot listen to children being abused in the moment, even if it’s only verbal, and do nothing. I can’t, and I won’t.

However, I wasn’t in your shoes at the time, nor am I today. Back then I was married, and thus, had a man in my home, which obviously didn't guarantee I'd be protected, but was, I believe still a deterrent. Today, we have a number of people in the house, and I would actually feel safer now than I did back then.

But you live alone with your son, and I believe that does put you at much more risk.

Looking back, I probably would not have called the police in the second incident. It was out of hand, yet I do think I was reacting viscerally rather than thinking it through. In both cases I would approach each wife/mother, non-judgmentally, and let them know that if they ever needed help I would do whatever I could to get them and their children safe, and I would, even knowing the chances were very good she'd go back to the abuser.

I know I’m all over the place in this post, but honestly, there is just no correct answer to your dilemma. Your son’s safety has to be your primary concern, yet how do you sit on your hands knowing, that in that very moment, children are being destroyed?

Your post was jarring.

Elphaba

[MorningStar]

I think people are usually too embarrassed to ask, "Are you the one who called the police over?" They are so humiliated, they just want to pretend it didn't happen. With neighbors on all sides, they couldn't know it's you anyway.

Years ago I knew things were getting bad with a friend and someone calling the police did give her the final nudge to leave. She asked if I had called. I said, "No, but I would have if I had heard it." Her husband was throwing objects at her head. He had also recently grabbed her arm while holding their son and said, "You love him more than me!" She almost dropped the baby because of him and she told him, "You're right. I do."

I have called the cops on neighbors a few times in other places we lived. The night we moved into one place, it was midnight and we were just sitting down to relax when the woman downstairs shouted obscenities at her husband (boyfriend?) for an hour straight. Our phone wasn't hooked up yet, so I didn't do anything. Soon after we had a phone, I heard her screaming for a long period of time again and her one-year-old was crying. I called that time and I could hear her stomping angrily towards her door and her tone changed immediately when she saw it was the cops. "Oh. Hi." "Everyone alive in here?" "Yeah." "You need to keep it down."

The next time I called, the baby was crying again as we heard the sound of heavy objects hitting the wall. I couldn't tell if it was a person being shoved or maybe a TV being thrown. They eventually moved. Yeah, I guess we could have been putting ourselves in danger by calling, but then if we didn't call, we might also be in danger if one of them pulled a gun and a bullet went through our ceiling.

The next set of neighbors also fought like crazy. Our manager said that place was cursed.

I wouldn't call the police over a few yelled sentences, but I would for anything prolonged and definitely would if there were screaming, objects being thrown, etc. Sadly, it could make things worse for the abusee, but it's one more step towards her or him getting fed up with what they shouldn't have tolerated for a moment.

[LDSVALLEY]

There is no correct answer as there are too many variables for each incident.

We have called authorites, felt good about it, even while being shunned by people because they assume we called.

We have not called authorities and felt bad because maybe we should have.

No mattter our actions we have to live with two things.

1 How we feel about our choice.

2 The consequences from others for the choice.

Go to the Lord and ask him with each situation what should be done. And think also what would the Lord have me do.

Then do what seems right for that situation. (And yes concern for the safety of your family is a factor)

[JudoMinja]

Thank you for your input everyone. This has helped a lot. I haven't heard anymore fighting lately, and thinking back now that I'm not in the heat of the moment and my own personal fears that cropped up at the sound of the yelling, I know that fight I overheard wasn't really a bad one. It sounded more like when my parents got mad at each other, and they always had healthy fights.

So, I'm coming up with some reference points to help me out in future situations when I start getting scared and thinking the cops might need to be called. I know its a bad idea to call the police when it isn't really necessary, all the way around- bad for me if people find out I called, bad for the cops who's time was wasted, bad for the family I called them on if intervention wasn't really needed... so- what to listen for to know when to call? Here's what I have so far-

1. If the yelling is excessively continuous, loud, not calming down, sounds one sided, etc.

2. If it sounds like objects (or people) are being thrown.

3. If there are children crying.

4. If someone is screaming in pain or fear.

And of course, pray when such situations come up to get reassurance about my decision one way or the other, to know if I should or should not call the police.

If anyone else has any more thoughts or input on this, it would be very much appreciated. I think part of what had me so nervous and concerned was the desire to provide intervention BEFORE someone got hurt and listening for screams of pain would mean someone is already getting hurt, but getting the cops involved too early just doesn't work.

[lost123]

I had this situation. I didn't know what to do. Is what I heard him slamming her down? Was it as bad as I was feeling it was when I was listening (couldn't hear all that happened). But inside it felt scary. I did not call. So I talked to Bishop (they were members). He said he would talk to them. He did. He said that any time I hear anything that sounds abusive to call him no matter what hour of the night. But he said that the best thing is to call the police. Sometimes, he said, that is what is needed to send the message to the perpetrator that it is wrong and that they have systems in place to get the help needed for both of them. It was good advice.

If you are afraid for your safety then you should let the police know this when you call.

It is tough. I know. I wondered if he'd come after me. Ask for advice from the police on the matter if needed and be sure to ask for help from the Bishop on the matter if you fear the safety of your son and yourself. It might be wise, if you can, to start looking for a new place to live.

[lost123]

Oh...and I was going to tell you that Bishop said it didn't matter if I didn't know what was going on, I should call the police. If it feels threatening and sounds threatening then it very well might be. If I am wrong then police will sort that out as well and it makes them think twice about the way they argue if it is indeed just a verbal dispute. In areas of abuse it is better to be on the side of error than to be on the side of silence and allow someone to fall victim of years of abuse without anyone caring enough to get them help. Police can be the first step in getting them help. Bishop said I should never confront them in a fight.

Now each situation is different. You need to refer to the police and your Bishop for advice.

I later found out that the husband had a temper (sweet as cookies in regular socializing) behind closed doors - became easily frustrated. Though it was really awkward conversing with them later...and to the credit of the perpertrating husband...he did not hold it against me and was getting help. What I heard did need intervention after all. But I have to say that the whole thing caused me great stress and fear. I am glad I did what I did though and learned a good lesson about what to do.

Be careful. Seek help in this matter.

[Blackmarch]

I live in an apartment building and a couple days ago overheard one of my neighbors arguing in the middle of the night. It was loud and heated, but sounded under control. I know fighting is a normal and even healthy (if done properly) part of a marriage and most any relationship, but I just could not allow myself to go back to sleep while they were still fighting. It was far too nerve-wracking, as I kept wondering if the fight was going to escalate. I had my phone on hand, ready to dial 911 in case it got bad. I was afraid if I went back to sleep and ignored it, someone would end up getting hurt when I could have prevented it.

A side note, I don't think fighting is for healthy marriage at all... especially the kind that involves loud and heated language (which is a big hint that someone is losing control).

What I'm wondering is, when something like this happens, when is it a good idea to call the police? I've been the abusee before, and the few times one of my neighbors called the cops it didn't really help much. And, of course, I don't want to drag police all the way over to my building for a false alarm. What if it is just a normal, heated fight? How do you know when its time to call in the calvary? Then, what if it is a bad fight, but calling 911 just ends up making it worse?

I've already called the police on someone in my building before for a situation that obviously needed intervention. This neighbor ended up getting evicted over illegal drug use. Thing is, I'm not exactly in the best neighborhood, and I fear that if people start seeing me as the "nark" they'll find ways to cause problems for me. So, part of the reason I am so uncertain is self-preservation. Mostly though, if it seems like cops need to be called, that is what I'm going to do, even if it does mean neighbors end up giving me a hard time. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if someone got hurt when I could have prevented it.

So if you hear neighbors fighting, how do you know when it is a situation to just leave alone compared to one that needs interference?

call the police... i'd say the sooner the better- you reduce the chance of something getting out of control.

Better to call the police and find out you're in error than to not do so, and find out later that you should have.

Police are generally good at keeping confidence... if you are not involved with the event directly they shouldn't mention that you did the calling to any other party. so generally if no ones seen you call, and you don't tell anyone, then no one should be able to know you called.