BYU Dancer Counciled For Showing Too Much Skin On SYTYCD!

[Vort]

I don't get this, was he on school property? Was he in class? No, so what has it got to do with his school what he's doing outside of their jurisdiction in his free time?

What has having facial hair got to do with anything, I've got facial hear (goatee) and have had one for a good few years, what relevance does this have to his dancing or not?

If you are accepted as a student at BYU, you accept that you are a representative of the school at all times and live the school standards -- one of which is no facial hair for men, same as missionaries. I don't think the facial hair thing applies if you're not actively going to school on campus, though, so it probably has no relevance.

[Dravin]

What has having facial hair got to do with anything, I've got facial hear (goatee) and have had one for a good few years, what relevance does this have to his dancing or not?

Facial hair is against BYU's grooming standards. Thus why I was wondering if he was on break (I was assuming the grooming standards don't apply when not actively attending), else in an interview about him getting talked to about violating school standards he's on camera demonstrating a violation of the grooming standards (unless he happened to have a 'beard card') which would have been an interesting choice for him to make.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Dravin

[john doe]

What has having facial hair got to do with anything, I've got facial hear (goatee) and have had one for a good few years, what relevance does this have to his dancing or not?

Class Schedule | Winter 2010 : Honor Code

An excerpt:

Dress and Grooming Standards

The dress and grooming of both men and women should always be modest, neat, and clean, consistent with the dignity adherent to representing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any of its institutions of higher education.

Modesty and cleanliness are important values that reflect personal dignity and integrity, through which students, staff, and faculty of BYU represent the principles and standards of the Church. Members of the BYU community commit themselves to observe the standards, which reflect the direction given by the BYU Board of Trustees and the Church publication For the Strength of Youth. (These guiding principles apply at all CES institutions of higher education. The application of these principles may vary slightly at the various institutions in accordance with local conditions and circumstances. [see separate institutional policies for more specific details on dress and grooming standards.]) The BYU Dress and Grooming Standards are as follows:

Men

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, revealing, or form fitting. Shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extreme styles or colors, and trimmed above the collar, leaving the ear uncovered. Sideburns should not extend below the earlobe or onto the cheek. If worn, mustaches should be neatly trimmed and may not extend beyond or below the corners of the mouth. Men are expected to be clean-shaven; beards are not acceptable. Earrings and other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

Women

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles and colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

A currently-enrolled student at BYU agrees to abide by those rules, among others. There are special circumstances in which a male may obtain a waiver of the rule (generally a medical condition where they cannot shave closely), but that does not happen very often. I do find it odd that they allow women to have facial hair, but that's the way the rule was written. BTW, the honor code was originally written and created by members of the student body, and they do make changes from time to time. Edited June 4, 2011 by john doe

[Dravin]

I don't think the facial hair thing applies if you're not actively going to school on campus, though, so it probably has no relevance.

Actually further looking reveals this:

Whether on or off campus or between semesters, all students are expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes (1) the Academic Honesty Policy, (2) the Dress and Grooming Standards, and (3) the applicable Residential Living Standards. Students are required to be in good Honor Code standing to graduate.

Linky: 2010 - 2011 Undergraduate Catalog | Church Educational System Honor Code

Depending on exactly how you parse that it looks like beards on summer break are a no-no. If such is the case than my past assumption was invalid. Depends on if a skipped semester is considered "between semesters" or if it's just trying to keep you from violating the Honor Code the short time between one semester ending and the next starting up.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Dravin

[sweetiepie]

what about nude art? a bare human body dosent have to be sexual.

I think BYU is overreacting, I'm sure both the swim teams and crosscounty team both wear clothes that are just as skimpy.

Hmmm, I am not sure if I am right on this, but I don't think BYU has nude art classes...I wouldn't want to see a future missionary or a future mother and wife posing nude.

Don't flame me, I see the appreciation for the nude artform, just not at BYU, or by those intending to remain chaste and virtuous.

[Latter Days Guy]

Now that is one strict school! Wouldn't get away with that in the UK!

[estradling75]

Now that is one strict school! Wouldn't get away with that in the UK!

Of course not... Comparing a Church (funded supported) school with a Government (funded supported) school is going to show very clear differences. A Church school is going to have whatever the church's moralities as guide lines.

Which means if you don't like the Church's stance you choose a different school.

[Vort]

Now that is one strict school! Wouldn't get away with that in the UK!

The UK does not guarantee freedom of religion and freedom of association?

[Vort]

Hmmm, I am not sure if I am right on this, but I don't think BYU has nude art classes...I wouldn't want to see a future missionary or a future mother and wife posing nude.

Don't flame me, I see the appreciation for the nude artform, just not at BYU, or by those intending to remain chaste and virtuous.

I have been told that BYU art students practice on people in body stockings. Don't know by firsthand experience.

[Latter Days Guy]

Of course not... Comparing a Church (funded supported) school with a Government (funded supported) school is going to show very clear differences. A Church school is going to have whatever the church's moralities as guide lines.

Which means if you don't like the Church's stance you choose a different school.

What I meant was that all schools in the UK are inspected by OFSTED (office for standards in education), state run ones, church ones and independent ones. Plus church/religious schools in the UK are legally obliged to accept a certain amount on non member students. On top of that there's the human rights act poking its nose in as well! So if BYU was in the UK it would of course have to overcome the obstacle of say a Muslim student wanting to attend who has a beard. If said student was rejected and the student complained OFSTED would step in, and review the situation, probably force the school to accept the student and take the school through the courts for breaching the human rights act in regards to religious inteolerance.

[LDSJewess]

Hmmm, I am not sure if I am right on this, but I don't think BYU has nude art classes...I wouldn't want to see a future missionary or a future mother and wife posing nude.

Don't flame me, I see the appreciation for the nude artform, just not at BYU, or by those intending to remain chaste and virtuous.

I agree about the nude art classes or posing in the nude, but the dancer was not posing in the nude any more than the swim team was. Danicing is a competitive athletic sport as is swimming and the dancer and the swim team essentially are wearing the same thing so why does BYU feel the dancer needs coundeling whereas the swim team does not. It is the double standard that is in question.

[john doe]

I agree about the nude art classes or posing in the nude, but the dancer was not posing in the nude any more than the swim team was. Danicing is a competitive athletic sport as is swimming and the dancer and the swim team essentially are wearing the same thing so why does BYU feel the dancer needs coundeling whereas the swim team does not. It is the double standard that is in question.

But dancing does not require near-nudity to get your artistic impression across, unless you are using a pole and are female. This student chose to go this direction when others (I assume, since I didn't see the episode in question) chose to wear more clothing, and probably were just as able to show their artistic abilities and forms.

Whether or not it is a double standard is your opinion, and has not been established. I would imagine that if the competitive swim team found economically viable suits which would enhance their performance without being so small, they would switch to them.

[Carl62]

I would imagine that if the competitive swim team found economically viable suits which would enhance their performance without being so small, they would switch to them.

Do you think they are even remotely going out of their way to do so? I seriously doubt it. Double standard.

[Latter Days Guy]

The UK does not guarantee freedom of religion and freedom of association?

Yes it does as long as it doesn't impede the rights of others or break the law. For example those rather nice people who come along to general conference and shout rather nasty things at those attending would be arrested and carted off for inciting religious intolerance, breach of the peace, verbal assault.

[Dravin]

Yes it does as long as it doesn't impede the rights of others or break the law. For example those rather nice people who come along to general conference and shout rather nasty things at those attending would be arrested and carted off for inciting religious intolerance, breach of the peace, verbal assault.

I think needless to say the US and the UK (and a lot of Europe) have differing ideas on where the lines for rights are drawn. Freedom of speech and guns are a couple of the big ones.

[Vort]

Yes it does as long as it doesn't impede the rights of others or break the law.

In what way does setting up a private school with strict standards violate anyone's right? Freedom of association means that we can set up private clubs, if we like. Or do you think anyone ought to be able to enter the temples?

[Dravin]

Vort, mind taking it to another thread? I can even take what exists of the conversation so far and move it over if you'd like. Normally I don't mind some OT but this has the potential of completely subsuming the thread in a political discussion.

[Vort]

Okay, Dravin. I probably won't bother making another thread about this, though. Those who sense something unfair or unjust in BYU's honor code aren't generally amenable to discussion about the whys and wherefores, so it's a lost cause anyway.

[Latter Days Guy]

In what way does setting up a private school with strict standards violate anyone's right? Freedom of association means that we can set up private clubs, if we like. Or do you think anyone ought to be able to enter the temples?

For example if I set up a strict muslim madrasah school in the UK that taught students to hate jews and to blow up the infidels then that school would be shut down and the people teaching such things would be prosecuted/imprisoned. Like wise if I set up a private club that was for people to meet other like minded people who like to go out and bash gays, then that also would be shut down and likely the organisers would be prosecuted/imprisoned.

And no I don't think that anybody should be able to enter a temple unless of course there is something illegal happening in said temple.

[Latter Days Guy]

Okay, Dravin. I probably won't bother making another thread about this, though. Those who sense something unfair or unjust in BYU's honor code aren't generally amenable to discussion about the whys and wherefores, so it's a lost cause anyway.

Personally I think its a good idea for schools to have an honour code like BYU's. I didn't actually know anything about it until it was mentioned in this thread.

When I was at bible college there was a set of rules/expectations on how we were to act/dress on campus or church placement, but they didn't extend beyond the colleges grounds/church. The staff were always worried about some person applying to the college who maybe didn't agree with their standards as legally they were unenforceable and were kept only because of the good will/respect of the student body towards the faculty.

Edited June 5, 2011 by GB-UK

[john doe]

Do you think they are even remotely going out of their way to do so? I seriously doubt it. Double standard.

In your opinion from afar. Unless you have intimate details from principals involved, you may think there might appear to be a double standard, but you don't really know if one exists. And based on my opinion and experience with this particular institution, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. They seem to me to be more on the ball than they are given credit for. It's easy for people not involved in the program or process to make snap judgements about things they know nothing about, but it's not necessarily the correct judgement.

Would I have chafed at some of their rules when I was going to school? Yep. I chafed at some of the rules at Ricks College, too. But I agreed to abide by them and suffer the consequences if caught breaking them. Luckily my field of study rarely required me to step foot on the main campus, and that situation kept me from getting in more trouble during my time there.

[Mahone]

What I meant was that all schools in the UK are inspected by OFSTED (office for standards in education), state run ones, church ones and independent ones. Plus church/religious schools in the UK are legally obliged to accept a certain amount on non member students. On top of that there's the human rights act poking its nose in as well! So if BYU was in the UK it would of course have to overcome the obstacle of say a Muslim student wanting to attend who has a beard. If said student was rejected and the student complained OFSTED would step in, and review the situation, probably force the school to accept the student and take the school through the courts for breaching the human rights act in regards to religious inteolerance.

I don't agree with this. Faith schools in the UK have a certain amount of freedom, and especially ones that are funded entirely by themselves. They aren't bound by a lot of the rules that state funded schools are, including the rules regarding having to provision 25% of their places to students that are not members of the targeted faith. I think these schools could get away with enforcing almost any rule they wanted providing the standard of education remained within acceptable levels.

[Mahone]

Yes it does as long as it doesn't impede the rights of others or break the law. For example those rather nice people who come along to general conference and shout rather nasty things at those attending would be arrested and carted off for inciting religious intolerance, breach of the peace, verbal assault.

I don't know about that either. Did you see the protesters outside the Preston temple during its dedication in 1998? The scenes were fairly similar, and no officials attempted to stop them.

[ruthiechan]

There is no double standard on this. Here's why:

I don't think it's valid to say that his outfit is excusable because BYU swimmers wear short bathing suits. Bathing suits improve their time. Short shorts don't improve your dancing ability. BYU swimmers wouldn't get away with wearing their bathing suits to class, the testing center, or church. Gymnasts wouldn't be permitted to wear their leotards in those places either, but they are necessary for their sport because loose clothing can snag on equipment and make it difficult for their spotters too. When I was in gymnastics, we weren't allowed to wear loose clothing because our coach might accidentally grab just our clothes instead of preventing us from landing on our heads.

There's no reason why this guy couldn't put some more clothing on.

[Latter Days Guy]

I don't agree with this. Faith schools in the UK have a certain amount of freedom, and especially ones that are funded entirely by themselves. They aren't bound by a lot of the rules that state funded schools are, including the rules regarding having to provision 25% of their places to students that are not members of the targeted faith. I think these schools could get away with enforcing almost any rule they wanted providing the standard of education remained within acceptable levels.

That is what those who run those weekend muslim schools thought aswell which have been in the news recently. OFSTED has moved in quick to either regulate them or close them down.