Parts Of The Bible Discounted As Incorrect

[Guest Monica]

Hey Monica,

I applaud the use of context! The God not changing vs. that you cited, what do you take that to mean? What of the LDS teaching of eternal progression? Is that a change from Man to god? What of His continued development?

Thanks

God is already perfect, how can you improve on perfection?

Deu 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

2Sa 22:31 [As for] God, his way [is] perfect; the word of the LORD [is] tried: he [is] a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Psa 18:30 [As for] God, his way [is] perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he [is] a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[Dr T]

Thanks Monica. I agree with what you posted. What about eternal progression? Did God ever have a time when He was not perfect? Is He, as some have said, “continuing to learn?”

[boyando]

Thanks Monica. I agree with what you posted. What about eternal progression? Did God ever have a time when He was not perfect? Is He, as some have said, “continuing to learn?”

Hi Dr T;

I hope that Monica will allow me to give this a shot.

There was a time that God was like man is now. He progressed through learning untill he had all knowledge. When he gained all knowledge, he became spiritualy complete or perfect (the word perfect being translated from the Hebrew word taleos, meaning to be completed).

Part of His spiritual learning was to learn and except, truths that have always been. This is not the end of his progression because he is now creating more spirits who will some time in the future, inhabit a world much like ours. At this time, the only learning that our Father in Heaven is doing, is getting to know the new spirits that he is creating. He progresses by bringing to pass the eternal live of man.

There is no way to surpass our Father in Heaven, because any glory we add to our self's, is added to the Father.

This is the best, short version of what I read in Doctrines of Salvation.

Thanks - Allmosthumble

[dannuzz]

<div class='quotemain'>

Thanks Monica. I agree with what you posted. What about eternal progression? Did God ever have a time when He was not perfect? Is He, as some have said, “continuing to learn?”

Hi Dr T;

I hope that Monica will allow me to give this a shot.

There was a time that God was like man is now. He progressed through learning untill he had all knowledge. When he gained all knowledge, he became spiritualy complete or perfect (the word perfect being translated from the Hebrew word taleos, meaning to be completed).

Part of His spiritual learning was to learn and except, truths that have always been. This is not the end of his progression because he is now creating more spirits who will some time in the future, inhabit a world much like ours. At this time, the only learning that our Father in Heaven is doing, is getting to know the new spirits that he is creating. He progresses by bringing to pass the eternal live of man.

There is no way to surpass our Father in Heaven, because any glory we add to our self's, is added to the Father.

This is the best, short version of what I read in Doctrines of Salvation.

Thanks - Allmosthumble

Hi allmosthumble :)

Thanks for sharing the mormon point of view. perhaps we should look at the inspired word of God (the bible) and see what that says

**Firstly God the father is not a man.

**Secondly God has not progressed in any means or sorts in regards to learning etc God is Omniscient and has always been , for he does not change.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie,

nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Does he speak and then not act?

Does he promise and not fulfill?

John 4:24

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

1 Timothy 6:15-16

which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Malachi 3:6

I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Psalms 102:25-27

In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

Like clothing you will change them

and they will be discarded.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

Psalm 139:1-4

O LORD, you have searched me

and you know me.

You know when I sit and when I rise;

you perceive my thoughts from afar.

You discern my going out and my lying down;

you are familiar with all my ways.

Before a word is on my tongue

you know it completely, O LORD.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;

his understanding has no limit.

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say: My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.

Amen to God being perfect Monica. :) and thanks for great scriptures

per·fect (pûrfkt) Perfect

precisely accurate or exact;

being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish;

Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind

Excellent and delightful in all respects

Dan

[Dr T]

Hello Allmosthumble,

Thanks you for your thoughts. I have a really hard time seeing how someone can "develop" into perfection, being all knowing, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omni-etcetera. Do you know when that idea was developed? Who brought it up first? (this might need its own thread)

Thanks you

[boyando]

Hello Allmosthumble,

Thanks you for your thoughts. I have a really hard time seeing how someone can "develop" into perfection, being all knowing, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omni-etcetera. Do you know when that idea was developed? Who brought it up first? (this might need its own thread)

Thanks you

I'm going to need a little time. I'm working on my omni-ectera.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Thanks Monica. I agree with what you posted. What about eternal progression? Did God ever have a time when He was not perfect? Is He, as some have said, “continuing to learn?”

Hi Dr T;

I hope that Monica will allow me to give this a shot.

There was a time that God was like man is now. He progressed through learning untill he had all knowledge. When he gained all knowledge, he became spiritualy complete or perfect (the word perfect being translated from the Hebrew word taleos, meaning to be completed).

Part of His spiritual learning was to learn and except, truths that have always been. This is not the end of his progression because he is now creating more spirits who will some time in the future, inhabit a world much like ours. At this time, the only learning that our Father in Heaven is doing, is getting to know the new spirits that he is creating. He progresses by bringing to pass the eternal live of man.

There is no way to surpass our Father in Heaven, because any glory we add to our self's, is added to the Father.

This is the best, short version of what I read in Doctrines of Salvation.

Thanks - Allmosthumble

Hi allmosthumble :)

Thanks for sharing the mormon point of view. perhaps we should look at the inspired word of God (the bible) and see what that says

**Firstly God the father is not a man.

**Secondly God has not progressed in any means or sorts in regards to learning etc God is Omniscient and has always been , for he does not change.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie,

nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Does he speak and then not act?

Does he promise and not fulfill?

John 4:24

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

1 Timothy 6:15-16

which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Malachi 3:6

I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Psalms 102:25-27

In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

Like clothing you will change them

and they will be discarded.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

Psalm 139:1-4

O LORD, you have searched me

and you know me.

You know when I sit and when I rise;

you perceive my thoughts from afar.

You discern my going out and my lying down;

you are familiar with all my ways.

Before a word is on my tongue

you know it completely, O LORD.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;

his understanding has no limit.

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say: My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.

Amen to God being perfect Monica. :) and thanks for great scriptures

per·fect (pûrfkt) Perfect

precisely accurate or exact;

being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish;

Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind

Excellent and delightful in all respects

Dan

Hey Dan;

Your new here so I will go easy on you. Just kidding.

God is not a man, we agree. God is perfect, we agree. Does God's kingdom increase? Will this world be His last? Would you stop God from progressing (if you could) by saying that this is it, no more worlds, no more new children?

I am thankful for the Bible and every inspired word in it. I beleive it to be the word of God and should be studied, often. And I hope that you can come back often - may I also sugest a trip to LDS.org and maybe a look at the thirteen articles of faith as kind of a starting point for some one who is going to show us darn Mormons the errors in our ways?

Don't worry, there will be plenty to argue about when you get back.

I think that, that was the natural man in me, coming out. I'm sorry for being rude. And please don't take it wrong when I say that I can not see were any of the scriptures that you have presented above have any thing to do with the point I was making. Your unworthy freind, Allmosthumble

[Dr T]

Hello Allmosthumble,

I understand. It usually takes awhile.

[spideyry]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Thanks Monica. I agree with what you posted. What about eternal progression? Did God ever have a time when He was not perfect? Is He, as some have said, “continuing to learn?”

Hi Dr T;

I hope that Monica will allow me to give this a shot.

There was a time that God was like man is now. He progressed through learning untill he had all knowledge. When he gained all knowledge, he became spiritualy complete or perfect (the word perfect being translated from the Hebrew word taleos, meaning to be completed).

Part of His spiritual learning was to learn and except, truths that have always been. This is not the end of his progression because he is now creating more spirits who will some time in the future, inhabit a world much like ours. At this time, the only learning that our Father in Heaven is doing, is getting to know the new spirits that he is creating. He progresses by bringing to pass the eternal live of man.

There is no way to surpass our Father in Heaven, because any glory we add to our self's, is added to the Father.

This is the best, short version of what I read in Doctrines of Salvation.

Thanks - Allmosthumble

Hi allmosthumble :)

Thanks for sharing the mormon point of view. perhaps we should look at the inspired word of God (the bible) and see what that says

**Firstly God the father is not a man.

**Secondly God has not progressed in any means or sorts in regards to learning etc God is Omniscient and has always been , for he does not change.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie,

nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Does he speak and then not act?

Does he promise and not fulfill?

John 4:24

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

1 Timothy 6:15-16

which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Malachi 3:6

I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Psalms 102:25-27

In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

Like clothing you will change them

and they will be discarded.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

Psalm 139:1-4

O LORD, you have searched me

and you know me.

You know when I sit and when I rise;

you perceive my thoughts from afar.

You discern my going out and my lying down;

you are familiar with all my ways.

Before a word is on my tongue

you know it completely, O LORD.

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;

his understanding has no limit.

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning,

from ancient times, what is still to come.

I say: My purpose will stand,

and I will do all that I please.

Amen to God being perfect Monica. :) and thanks for great scriptures

per·fect (pûrfkt) Perfect

precisely accurate or exact;

being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish;

Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind

Excellent and delightful in all respects

Dan

Hey Dan;

Your new here so I will go easy on you. Just kidding.

God is not a man, we agree. God is perfect, we agree. Does God's kingdom increase? Will this world be His last? Would you stop God from progressing (if you could) by saying that this is it, no more worlds, no more new children?

I am thankful for the Bible and every inspired word in it. I beleive it to be the word of God and should be studied, often. And I hope that you can come back often - may I also sugest a trip to LDS.org and maybe a look at the thirteen articles of faith as kind of a starting point for some one who is going to show us darn Mormons the errors in our ways?

Don't worry, there will be plenty to argue about when you get back.

I think that, that was the natural man in me, coming out. I'm sorry for being rude. And please don't take it wrong when I say that I can not see were any of the scriptures that you have presented above have any thing to do with the point I was making. Your unworthy freind, Allmosthumble

Hey Almosthumble,

Isn't it true that Lds believes that the bible is man made, with flaws and can only be partly trusted as inspired? As apposed to the BOM that whas supposed to be written by God Himself and should be placed above the bible or any other book in authority? Do you believe this? Here is something to think about. The bible is the divine and true Word of God. What it says is true.

If that is so, then it so happens to prove the other two absolute truths. How can I say for sure that God exists and is exactly as the bible describes Him? Because the bible- which is divine trustworthy and true- says so. How can I say that Jesus is the only way to get to God? Because the bible says so :) .

We have to believe with all our hearts that the bible is true, as a whole (in it's original texts). Otherwise we will start picking and choosing what WE think is true or false and that would make us the judge and there is only one Judge. Our loving, living, faithfull GOD.

[dannuzz]

am thankful for the Bible and every inspired word in it. I beleive it to be the word of God and should be studied, often. And I hope that you can come back often

may I also sugest a trip to LDS.org and maybe a look at the thirteen articles of faith as kind of a starting point for some one who is going to show us darn Mormons the errors in our ways?

Don't worry, there will be plenty to argue about when you get back.

I think that, that was the natural man in me, coming out. I'm sorry for being rude. And please don't take it wrong when I say that I can not see were any of the scriptures that you have presented above have any thing to do with the point I was making. Your unworthy freind, Allmosthumble

perhaps you should read the bold of the scriptures cited, they are examples of Gods omniscience thus voiding the concept that God "progresses" period.

For someone who believes the bible is the word of God. you dont read alot?

I dont need to read LDS articles of faith to show the "darn" mormons the "errors" of their ways

(which is not my intentions just your opinion formed by the two posts I have written! )

the bible does a great job by itself for showing what mormonism is. should we look at just 1 example?

Mormonism......

Jesus is the spirit brother of satan * Mormon Doctrine, p. 163

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," *Mormon Doctrine, page 192.

The Holy Bible.....

Jesus created all things that have been made without him nothing was made that has been made, *John 1:3

that includes Satan unless you dont think hes a creation?? and since Jesus made him, then how can they be

brothers??

just off the bat we have a contridiction........ cant both be right........

by the way everyone im Dan :) , nice to meet you all . im 22 from Wellington , New Zealand. Im new to these boards. as you can see by my few posts, and profile. few free to shoot any questions you may have.

when dialoguing, I will treat you as you ought to be treated. with Gentleness and respect. and I ask for the same in return.

Cheers :)

[Dr T]

Hello Dan,

I am just learning so take my words about the LDS faith for what they are worth. As for the concept of omniscience, from what I've gathered here, some people believe that God attained omniscience through development. He eventually attained all knowledge through continued growth. Is that correct all?

Thanks

[dannuzz]

Hello Dan,

I am just learning so take my words about the LDS faith for what they are worth. As for the concept of omniscience, from what I've gathered here, some people believe that God attained omniscience through development. He eventually attained all knowledge through continued growth. Is that correct all?

Thanks

hey Dt T :)

God attained omniscience through development. He eventually attained all knowledge through continued growth

and thats the problem if thats what their opinion is.......

there is not even one scripture that supports the veiw that God progressed in understanding or obtained knowledge through growth, not one.

Gods understanding is infinite

God has always been perfect

Have a great day :)

Dan

[boyando]

perhaps you should read the bold of the scriptures cited, they are examples of Gods omniscience thus voiding the concept that God "progresses" period.

For someone who believes the bible is the word of God. you dont read alot?

I dont need to read LDS articles of faith to show the "darn" mormons the "errors" of their ways

(which is not my intentions just your opinion formed by the two posts I have written! )

the bible does a great job by itself for showing what mormonism is. should we look at just 1 example?

Mormonism......

Jesus is the spirit brother of satan * Mormon Doctrine, p. 163

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," *Mormon Doctrine, page 192.

The Holy Bible.....

Jesus created all things that have been made without him nothing was made that has been made, *John 1:3

that includes Satan unless you dont think hes a creation?? and since Jesus made him, then how can they be

brothers??

just off the bat we have a contridiction........ cant both be right........

by the way everyone im Dan :) , nice to meet you all . im 22 from Wellington , New Zealand. Im new to these boards. as you can see by my few posts, and profile. few free to shoot any questions you may have.

when dialoguing, I will treat you as you ought to be treated. with Gentleness and respect. and I ask for the same in return.

Cheers :)

Hey Dan;

First let me say that I'am sorry that I came off rood, there is no excuse for treating you like, just because your new here, I could make fun of you. You seem like a nice guy.

There are, in my opinion, very few flaws in the Bible and I have read it often. We Mormons are not supposed to have a favorite when it comes to what we call the standard work's. I'm not perfect, my favorite is the Bible, because it is the word of God and because it has more poetry in it than our other scripture's.

Your exsample of how we part ways boils down to how littorale you want to take the Bible. So let's take the Bible as littorale as you have, above, when you tried to show me that I don't read the Bible.

In the book of Revelations, chapter 22 verse 18; For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are in this book:

The book reffered here is the book of Revelations. The Bible was not compliled into a book untill between 50 and 75 years later. So is it a sin to add the book of Revelations to the Bible?

If you wan't me to add more exsamples I will. I do hope that you would like to be positive and move forward. Your all most humble friend - Allmosthumble

[Snow]

Alot of catholic teachings and doctrines dont match the bible to begin with. For example they pray to mary and the bible calls that idolitry. So it doesnt shock me to hear such a statement.

You mean that YOU think that the bible calls it idolatry. Catholics don't think that the bible calls it idolatry.

First of all, Roman Catholics do not pray to Mary.

Well that's incorrect. Some Catholics do and some do not. I lived in South American and some Catholics certainly did.

[Guest Monica]

You mean that YOU think that the bible calls it idolatry. Catholics don't think that the bible calls it idolatry.

What the catholics think doesnt change what God has said.

[Snow]

What the catholics think doesnt change what God has said.

Neither does your own interpretation of the bible change what God said.

I just don't trust you to properly interpret God's word any more than I trust the Catholics - maybe less in some cases.

[Palerider]

I grew up in a Catholic area and yes...there are some catholics that pray to Mary.....

[Dr T]

Me too Palerider. That is a true statement

[Guest Monica]

<div class='quotemain'>

What the catholics think doesnt change what God has said.

Neither does your own interpretation of the bible change what God said.

I just don't trust you to properly interpret God's word any more than I trust the Catholics - maybe less in some cases.

I never interpretted any scriptures, I just posted them as they are... if you dont believe me open your bible and see if it isnt the same.

[JohnTaylor1886]

I served a mission in Poland, a country which is 95% Roman Catholic and home to John Paul II. There was actually a movement within the Catholic Church there to elevate the status of Mary to the same as God the Father, and this movement is called the Mariawici movement. Some consider it part of the Roman Catholic Church, and some do not...depends on whom you ask. Is that idolatry?

While we are at it, just how exactly does it translate and what exactly does that commandment mean? Well, the word for idol in Hebrew is pesel (Strong's 6459) and it comes from the Hebrew verb pasal meaning to cut or hew (i.e. from stone or wood). Or, if you like, in the Septuagint, it is rendered eidolon (from which we get our word idol), and in the Vulgate, we have the word sculptile (from which we get our word to sculpt, scuplture). This comes from Exodus 20:4. For purposes of simplicity, I will use the Latin Vulgate to continue with the meaning in the first part of verse 5, which says "non adorabis ea neque coles..." which means "You will not worship (bow) to them neither serve [them]..."

Now that some things have been exegeted out, feel free to draw your own conclusion as to how it applies.

As far as Mormon Doctrine goes, that book does not, never has, and never will be the "official" word of what actually constitutes Latter-Day Saint Doctrine. For one thing, Bruce R. McConkie has made several errors in his book in the past (the earliest edition in 1966 caused quite a stir among the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency insomuch that they made him revise it), and as for some things that Bro. McConkie said, I take them with a grain of salt. Regardless of my point-of-view, even if what he wrote was 100% accurate, Mormon Doctrine is not a binding summary of the doctrine of the Restored Gospel. At best, it is only a reference book, and yes, some reference books may have inaccuracies or slants. It amazes me that those who like to debate the veracity of the Gospel use something that cannot be construed as "official".

Nevertheless, there are those that choose to shock people by saying "Hey, you know what? Mormons believe that Jesus Christ and Satan are spirit brothers." That, I believe is the religious equivalent of "yellow journalism". It is not shocking when one steps back and carefully looks at what the scriptures say on the matter.

You have to ask yourself, is/was Lucifer a child of God? Yes, just as we are. He is the prodigal son of our Heavenly Father, only he did not return after recognizing his foolishness, rather, his act was done out of open rebellion. Even as early as the 4th century A.D., one of the early Christian Fathers, Lactantius, wrote that "Lucifer would have been nothing less that the younger brother to the Logos." I would hardly cast Lactantius into the pit, seeing as how Catholics and Protestants alike draw heavily upon referring to the early Christian Fathers.

Also read Job 1:6. It talks of Satan being among the sons of God. And yes, I am aware of the argument that the sons of God refers to angels, of that argument I am aware, but I am not buyng it. On what grounds? On the grounds that in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin texts, the words used do not mention angels at all. In Hebrew, the word is b'ne-HaElohim, and in the Latin Vulgate, it is rendered filii Dei. The Septuagint is the only one that renders the word angels, using the phrase hoi angeloi tou theou. This causes a bit of a quandry, but not really. The word for angel in Hebrew is malakh (Strong's #4397). So, why does the Septuagint translate it that way?

The reason it that the translation of the Septuagint in this particular case is not literal. That could be the only logical conclusion. If it were literal, it would have read hoi huioi tou theou, but it does not. And even if we did accept the Septuagint as literal, what would Satan be doing among the angels of God? The rules of hermeneutics (as well as Occam's razor) cannot justify Satan still being among the angels, and so that conclusion must be rejected. Therefore, the Greek in that particular passage is not to be taken as a literal rendering of the Hebrew.

All right, now we go to our Hebrew, the original language of the Old Testament. Sons of God means just that, sons of God and it is translated as such. If God did not create Lucifer, then you would have to conclude that Lucifer was created by another Creator...something that most Christians would outright reject. Well then, that leaves only one conclusion, the God created Lucifer, as he created us. As such we are children of God. Christ is also a child of God, the only difference is that He was the Only Begotten. Well, Chirst being a child of God, Lucifer also being a child of God, and we being children of God (Acts 17:29), then that makes all of us, Lucifer included, brothers and sisters, and this drawn totally and strictly from the Bible.

It is also not absurd to say that God is a being that progresses. Most Christians would agree that the best example of God, namely in the flesh, would be Jesus Christ. After all, He was perfect in every way because He is the Divine Son of God. One rule of thumb to which I have always subscribed is that "like begets like". In other words, two humans will not beget a goat, two lions will not beget a hippopotamus, and so forth. So, what does God beget? That's right, a being just like Him, in this case, Jesus Christ.

In Luke 2:52, we read "and Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man".

How is that?! I thought that Jesus Christ was perfect in every way!

Ah, there is the rub. It seems that one of two conclusions must be accepted. If Christ was begotten of God, and God does not progress, but already has all things, then Christ, being the Son of God, also had all things since His birth. However, Luke 2:52 clearly states that this was not the case.

The other conclusion: Christ was the literal Son of God. That means that He is like God in every way, since He [Christ] was begotten of Him [the Father]. Now, if Christ is like God in every way, and Christ had to increase in wisdom, then guess what? So did the Father! John 5:19 is a classic, and it reads "Then answered Jesus and said unto them [the Jews], Verily, Verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise".

I would have no trouble if you chose to extend the passge over the next few verses, for it would only strengthen the point. The central point is that the Son does what his Father does, and does nothing of himself. Now, couple that with Luke 2:52, and guess what? If the Son had to increase in wisdom and stature, then it is only because He has seen the father do likewise, and this according to John 5:19. Imagine that! The Son had been shown by example on how to progress!

Mormon Doctrine is a decent reference book for those who want to understand certain terminology thrown around by Mormons, but I would never even think to quote it s the source of doctrine and teachings that are binding upon those who choose to follow the Restored Gospel. Personally, as I have shown, I think I can do quite well without Mormon Doctrine speaking for what I believe, and I also believe that many other Latter-Day saints could just as easily do the same.

[Jason]

I grew up in a Catholic area and yes...there are some catholics that pray to Mary.....

True enough. But praying directly to mary is contrary to the official stance of the RCC. To judge an entire church based on the actions of a few is not a good thing to do.

Like, there was the Mormon guy on the news the other day who molested kids. Does that mean that Mormons sanction molestation?

Come on people. Let's be bigger than that.

[Snow]

I never interpretted any scriptures, I just posted them as they are... if you dont believe me open your bible and see if it isnt the same.

Your bible says nothing about Catholic, and Mary being idolatrous. That pure Ari talking.

[JohnTaylor1886]

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I grew up in a Catholic area and yes...there are some catholics that pray to Mary.....

True enough. But praying directly to mary is contrary to the official stance of the RCC. To judge an entire church based on the actions of a few is not a good thing to do.

Like, there was the Mormon guy on the news the other day who molested kids. Does that mean that Mormons sanction molestation?

Come on people. Let's be bigger than that.

"No one will suspect the early Christians of idolatry, as if they had paid supreme worship to Mary's pictures or name; but how are we to explain the phenomena enumerated, unless we suppose that the early Christians venerated Mary in a special way?

Nor can this veneration be said to be a corruption introduced in later times. It has been seen that the earliest picture dates from the beginning of the second century, so that within the first fifty years after the death of St. John the veneration of Mary is proved to have flourished in the Church of Rome." (www.newadvent.org--the Catholic encyclopedia website).

Also, take into consideration the follwoing paragraphs from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, nihil obstat. Underlines are my own.

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

725 Finally, through Mary, the Holy Spirit begins to bring men, the objects of God's merciful love, into communion with Christ. And the humble are always the first to accept him: shepherds, magi, Simeon and Anna, the bride and groom at Cana, and the first disciples.

829 "But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary": in her, the Church is already the "all-holy."

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

(Note: I equate adoration with worship because of the usage of the Latin verb adorare in Exodus 20:4 ("...non adorabis ea..." [Latin Vuglate Version])

2146 The second commandment forbids the abuse of God's name, i.e., every improper use of the names of God, Jesus Christ, but also of the Virgin Mary and all the saints.

2162 The second commandment forbids every improper use of God's name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way.

2675 Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.

2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

2682 Because of Mary's singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Contrary to the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church? I'm afraid not! Especially when the Cathechism of the Roman Catholic Church specifically talks about praying to her! That brings me to this question: can anyone here give me a reference to an official papal declaration or ecclesiastical council that specifically forbids praying to Mary? The Catechism points out the propriety of praying to Mary, so who reversed it?

As far as comparing it to molestation, that is comparing apples and oranges. One is a religious doctrine and practice done individually, the other is a crime against another human.

[Snow]

by the way everyone im Dan :) , nice to meet you all . im 22

REALLLLY?

By the high level of your argumentation, Idda sworn that you were 23.

[Jason]

(Note: I equate adoration with worship because of the usage of the Latin verb adorare in Exodus 20:4 ("...non adorabis ea..." [Latin Vuglate Version)

That's where you went wrong. You need to brush up on your Latin.

Let's examine this from a Roman theologian's standpoint: We will begin by defining the English and Latin equivalents:

Worship = Latria

Veneration = Dulia (see also hyper-dulia)

All approved Catholic theologians will tell you that they do not worship the Theotokos, but they do venerate her. Veneration is reserved for Mary and the Saints. Be reminded that all prayer directed towards Mary or a Saint is done under the spirit of "dulia" or veneration, and not under the spirit of "latria" or worship.

Now the Theotokos is a unique person in the Church, and she is accorded a "higher" status than the Saints. Therefore, she is given greater form of veneration called "hyper-dulia". But notice that this is still not "worship" but veneration.

Also, something that I learned on my own, is that all veneration given to either the Theotokos or the Saints is actually not really going to them per se. Rather, Catholics and Orthodox are venerating the attributes of Christ which was present or is present in them. The Saints are but a reflection of Jesus Christ, therefore all praise directed to them is actually praise to God.

Hope that helps clear up your misunderstanding JT.