Jesus And Jehovah

[Guest ApostleKnight]

If we are all eternal intelligences, does that mean that God did NOT create our intelligence?

Allow me to reproduce the passage from the Doctrine & Covenants that answers your question:

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29)

God created our spirit and mortal bodies, not our intelligences. Reading a few verses further in Section 93, we actually find the reason God clothed our intelligences in spirit and mortal bodies:

"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;"

"And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." (D&C 93:33-34)

God loves us and wants us to be eternally happy. He gave us our spirit and mortal bodies to further our progression towards a fulness of joy. That's one reason our spirits will be rejoined with our physical bodies in the resurrection...even Christ kept his body, albeit a glorified, exalted one (as ours will hopefully be). :)

[boyando]

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So we believe Jesus has always existed as an "intelligence." Heavenly Father didn't "create" the consciousness or personality that makes Jesus, well, Jesus. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the pre-existence, meaning Jesus was the first intelligence out of all of us to receive a spirit body in the image of God. God didn't create Jesus, merely his spirit body. But yes, Heavenly Father existed as a God before Jesus did, if that's what you're getting at by saying subordinate.

AK, you are an excellent instructor. Thanks.

BTW, a question comes to mind. If we are all eternal intelligences, does that mean that God did NOT create our intelligence?

This is not scripture or fact, just something that I picked up someware in my life time and do not know were I picked it up:

The Father takes the eternal intelligence's and creates spirit's, then takes the spirits, add's a body and creats the soul.

If you are going to paint a picture or create a painting, someone would weave the canvass. Someone would find the materials for the paint. Anouther would make the paint brush.

When the Father of our souls created us, he started with materials like intelligence. Unlike the painter, Father did it all.

I may or may not have got it correct and I know that there are still going to be things that I learn on the other side of the vail. - Allmosthumble

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The Father takes the eternal intelligence's and creates spirit's, then takes the spirits, add's a body and creats the soul.

Precisely. I believe that is the pattern: Clothe an intelligence in a spirit body. If it is found worthy, clothe it in a mortal body which will be resurrected after death. If it is found worthy, give its resurrected body celestial glory and let it dwell in God's immediate presence (1 Cor. 15:40-42 explains that resurrected bodies can be of different glories). Of course I believe obeying God and submitting to His will--whatever that may be--is what makes us worthy in each of those steps. Joseph Smith taught:

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself...He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself..." (King Follet Discourse)

The King Follet Discourse is not part of the LDS canon. It was a record of a sermon Joseph Smith gave at a funeral, and not recorded by Joseph Smith himself. I believe the quote above to be true, though. It fleshes out the doctrines in the D&C regarding man's eternal nature, why God is giving us this mortal experience, and what our eternal destiny might be. To God alone the glory, now and ever! :)

[Ray]

Just a word of caution to everyone who isn’t already aware of this:

There is a difference between actual teachings of our Lord to His prophets who instruct other members of His church, and what some members of the Church (and other people) believe our Lord and His prophets were and are teaching.

And I think ApostleKnight did a good job explaining that some of his beliefs are not official teachings of our Lord to His church, but even when people use very plain words some others don’t correctly understand them.

And as always, if anyone has any doubts or troubles distinguishing what are actual teachings of our Lord and His prophets, they can read and study the words of God and His prophets while asking God for more wisdom.

[Traveler]

It is my understanding that spirit is eternal and is not created and cannot cease to exist. The concept of intelligences comes from Abraham Chapter 3 verse 22 but in verse 23 we are told that those intelligences were spirits.

The Traveler

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...in verse 23 we are told that those intelligences were spirits.

I have a question for you. I'm interested in your personal opinion here Traveler, not establishing official doctrine. We know we existed as spirits before our mortal birth. What do you think we were--or did we exist at all--before our spirit births? I'd be interested in your view on this, as it's not often discussed. Again, we're talking about opinions here so I'm not going to argue with you regardless of your answer. :)

[Ray]

I know I wasn't asked, but another possibility is that we were created with the opportunity to attain and grow in intelligence... with intelligence being something that all living beings can attain.

After all, all living beings do not now possess intelligence, or light and truth, as evidenced by the example of Satan... who although he once had a LOT of intelligence, now exists in the darkness forever.

[Dr T]

Hello All,

Why is it held that intelligences are eternal but the idea that God is eternal is not viewed as a possibility?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Why is it held that intelligences are eternal but the idea that God is eternal is not viewed as a possibility?

I must not grasp the question. LDS do believe God is eternal. Can you rephrase your question?

[Dr T]

What I meant was the belief that God was not always God. He had to progress to that status. Intelligences have always been. Why is the concept of God always existing as God dismissed and intelligences as everlasting held?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Why is the concept of God always existing as God dismissed and intelligences as everlasting held?

It comes down to continuing revelation and new scripture. Doctrine doesn't always bow down before logic. :)

[Dr T]

Thanks AK,

So its "doctrine before logic." Just checking.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So its "doctrine before logic." Just checking.

Nope. It's testimony before man's wisdom. As Isaiah 55:9 says, God's ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth. Just because something doesn't make sense to my finite mind doesn't mean it isn't true. That's what I was getting at.

[Dr T]

I understand that and agree with you sir. There is a place for logic though. Wouldn't you agree? Will you please explain to me what a "testimony" is at its core? Is it just a justification, from our worldview, that supports our belief system?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Will you please explain to me what a "testimony" is at its core? Is it just a justification, from our worldview, that supports our belief system?

My testimony is a spiritual assurance that certain beliefs are true. It's spirit-to-spirit communication, the Holy Ghost speaking to my heart and mind. It's pure knowledge infused directly into my soul, calmness and security in believing certain things. To put it bluntly, "God told me so." :)

[Dr T]

Hey AK,

You said,

My testimony is a spiritual assurance that certain beliefs are true.

Does this make your testimony, and hence veracity of truth, carry the same value/knowledge as the Hindu, Jehovah Witness, Buddhist, New Ager, etc.? Is it really just a feeling that you are correct and can read verification of your beliefs in the literature that you read?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Is it really just a feeling that you are correct and can read verification of your beliefs in the literature that you read?

You're looking at it backwards. I don't gain a testimony and then read what supports my beliefs. An idealogue forms a conclusion and then gathers evidence to support that conclusion. A truth-seeker gathers evidence and then draws a conclusion from the evidence.

The evidence is before us Dr. T...the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price. What conclusion you draw based on them is up to you. I have found them to be God's word, the LDS church to be Christ's authorized Church, and President Gordon B. Hinckley to be God's living prophet to the world.

[Dr T]

Hello AK,

I don't gain a testimony and then read what supports my beliefs. An idealogue forms a conclusion and then gathers evidence to support that conclusion. A truth-seeker gathers evidence and then draws a conclusion from the evidence.

The evidence is before us Dr. T...the Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price. What conclusion you draw based on them is up to you.

There in lies my point AK. "What conclusion you draw based on them is up to you." The conclusions that we draw are based on biases. If you have a slant or an internal suggestion, you will be cued in a certain way. For you, reading the Bible falls in line with your other preconceived notions from the other books that you cited. We are all biased. It can't be avoided. We need to own our biases and then work from there.

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The conclusions that we draw are based on biases.

They don't have to be.

We need to own our biases and then work from there.

God speaking to my heart and mind is an awfully powerful bias...one which I'm proud to own.

[LionHeart]

If one studies the lectures on faith, and understands them correctly, he will know how to gain a 'knowledge' of truth; not merely a 'belief'. (You must read between the lines) Let me explain the difference between knowledge and belief: Let's take New York for example; I've never been there, I've heard it's there, I've seen it in movies, I'm pretty sure it's there, But until I actually go there and see it with my own eyes, I only have faith of it's existence. But when I go there and see it, that is the point when it's existence becomes actual knowledge. It is the same with God. Until we actually develope that one on one relationship with him, we must depend on faith of His existence. And even then we are depending on only a greater degree of faith that it is God whith whom we have developed our one on one relationship; until we actually have the priviledge of meeting Him face to face.

Concerning the eternality of intelligences, Joseph Smith, in another discourse, said that when you have two intelligences, one being higher than the other, this in itsself proves the possibility of there being yet a higher intelligence than they both. He then went on to say that we have a Father in Heaven, Him being a higher intelligence than us, it is logical to assume the He also has a Father in Heaven; and likewise with His Father and on up into eternity. The Lord is without beginning of days or end of years. He is from eternity to eternity; one eternal round. We also exist from eternity to eternity. Joseph Smith then took the ring off of his finger to use it as an example. He pointed out that it continues round and round. If you break it, then suddenly it has a beginning, and therefore it must have an end. And so it is with the Lord, He had no beginning because if He did, then He must eventually have an end. Joseph Smith said that this was the best explanation he could give because our finite minds are incapable of comprehending the fullness of it.

With this in mind, it is logical to assume that we had birth before our spiritual birth; and likewise a birth before that, and down into eternity.

Brigham Young also seemed to understand this principle. He made these statements:

There is an eternity of elements, and

an eternity of space and there is no space without a kingdom; neither is

there any kingdom without a space. Were the best mathematician to

multiply figures from the time he first commenced to learn at five or

ten years of age, until he is one hundred years old, or until he has

exhausted the capacity of figures known to man, he can then tell no more

about the number of creations of God in comparison than a mere child who

knows nothing whatever of figures. There is no beginning, no end; there

is no bounds, no time, when the elements will cease to be organized into

bodies with all the variety you have a faint specimen of on this Earth.

There is no necessity of creating a world like this, and keeping it in

one unalterable state or condition for the express purpose of bringing

intelligent beings upon it, while there is an eternity of matter yet to

be organized; and when we have lived as long as the best mathematicians

among you can figure by millions, billions, trillions of years, and when

you have exhausted all your wisdom and knowledge and figures, you are

then in the midst of eternity where you began.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

With this in mind, it is logical to assume that we had birth before our spiritual birth; and likewise a birth before that, and down into eternity.

It is logical to assume that, but not necessarily correct. I don't anticipate the Lord revealing the details of our pre-pre-mortal existence during this existence, but it is an interesting subject.

[LionHeart]

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With this in mind, it is logical to assume that we had birth before our spiritual birth; and likewise a birth before that, and down into eternity.

It is logical to assume that, but not necessarily correct. I don't anticipate the Lord revealing the details of our pre-pre-mortal existence during this existence, but it is an interesting subject.

Exactly. Here is how Brigham Young put it:

I will tell you what I believe still further than this; though I do not

pretend to say that the items of doctrine, and ideas I shall advance are

necessary for the people to know, or that they should give themselves

any trouble about them whatever.

[Dr T]

Thanks for your thought LionHeart. So, you believe that, with respect to existance, we (humans) are no different than God?

[Ray]

What I meant was the belief that God was not always God. He had to progress to that status. Intelligences have always been. Why is the concept of God always existing as God dismissed and intelligences as everlasting held?

I think you're forming some incorrect conclusions, because some of what you say is true and some of what you say isn't.

For one thing, the word "intelligences" has not been defined by God, and although some of us think we know what that means, there is still some ambiguity.

And for another thing, God has always existed as God, just not in the way you may be thinking.

And I personally think of it something like this, based on my understanding of God’s revelations:

The individual we often refer to as God (or in other words, our Father in heaven) was always God because He was always of the same race or species from which all true Gods come from… with the understanding that Gods have always existed forever (in contrast to the idea that there was ever only one individual God who started it all)… but the individual we now often refer to as God (again, our Father in heaven) was not always as perfect as He is right now, which is as perfectly good or glorious as all Gods can ever be (in contrast to being as perfectly evil or shameful as Satan), and by following the counsel of God (our Father in heaven) we can also become like Him… OR we can also become like Satan… OR we can also become only almost as perfect as all Gods can ever be (and there are several different degrees of glory we can attain if we don’t choose to become like God).

Now think and ponder that thought for a while and then ask God if there is any truth in it. And I say that because it's as much as I know about the truth and it's the best advice I can give you. :)

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for that great post! I respect the way your approach and the tone of that last post.

You are correct. I have no idea what "intelligences" are. I was under the impression (based on what I'm reading) that they, whatever they are, have always been around. They are "eternal." If I'm incorrect on that, I'd love to learn/be corrected. You also said,

God has always existed as God, just not in the way you may be thinking.

Ok. I thought, based on LDS teachings, that the person you worship as God was once a man. If, once a man, it seems to follow that he was once not god. Or do you believe that all men are already god? Last question. You said

...OR we can also become only almost as perfect as all Gods can ever be

What do you mean there Ray? I see that you say there are different degrees of glory. Does that mean that you can attain a less than degree of glory of the god you currently worship? Is there lesser and greater gods in you belief system?

Thank you so much Ray.