Jesus And Jehovah

[LionHeart]

I read in an LDS book that said that according to LDS belief, Jesus and Jehova are the same indivdual; that Jesus is the one who communicated to the ancient prophets; the one who was called Jehova. This was new to me. I'm not sure what to make of it. Any comments?

[Deazone]

I read in an LDS book that said that according to LDS belief, Jesus and Jehova are the same indivdual; that Jesus is the one who communicated to the ancient prophets; the one who was called Jehova. This was new to me. I'm not sure what to make of it. Any comments?

What is the LDS book that you read? I am new to the Church, however, according to the Gospel Principles Jesus was once called Jehovah.

"We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27)."

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...according to LDS belief, Jesus and Jehova are the same indivdual...This was new to me...Any comments?

It's not just an LDS belief. Paul himself taught it plainly in Corinthians 10, particularly verses 4 and 9 which I reproduce here. Paul is comparing Israel's journey through the Red Sea to being baptized under Moses:

"And [israel] did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (v.4)

"Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents." (v.9)

Paul is saying that Jesus was the God who followed Israel in the wilderness, who led them through the Red Sea, and who destroyed them with serpents after they "tempted" God. One of the Jews' name for the God of the Old Testament was Jehovah. So if the Old Testament God was called Jehovah, and if Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, Jesus was Jehovah.

Interestingly, <strike>trinitarians</strike> modalists and others will use this scripture to prove that there is only one God but three expressions, since Paul calls Jesus the God of the Old Testament. After all, the God of the Old Testament identified himself as the Father in Heaven, and Jesus is clearly identified as the Son of the Father in Heaven, and since no one can be their own father or their own son, Jesus clearly is simply another expression of one God revealing Himself in different ways and in different times to different peoples.

However, there is a principle which confounds this line of reasoning. It is called "divine investiture," and explains how Jesus--who was indeed Jehovah, God of the Old Testament--could speak as the Father though he were but the Son. Let me break it down in small chunks so it's easy to follow.

1) Before the Fall of Adam and Eve, they lived in God the Father's presence.

2) After the Fall, they were spiritually unclean and were cast out of God's presence (spiritual death).

3) There had to be some way for unclean children to approach and deal with their perfect Father.

4) Jesus was chosen to be this Mediator, Savior, the "go-between" for man and God the Father.

5) God the Father would deliver messages to Jesus and command him to speak to Israel in His stead.

6) Jesus, thus invested with divine authority to speak for God the Father, spoke as if he were the Father when addressing Israel through prophets.

7) Hence the Son spoke as if he were the Father, fulfilling his role as Mediator between God and man.

This principle is really rather easy to understand. The prophets are able to speak in the first person as if they were the Lord...you know, the familiar, "Thus saith the Lord: I have seen your abominations..." etc... Sure the prophets are not the Lord, but when speaking for him, they speak as if they were him to convey the intimacy and immediateness of our relationship to the Lord.

There's a big difference between these deliveries:

A prophet says, "The Lord told me in a vision that our worshipping idols displeases him greatly, and is making him angry with us."

vs.

A prophet says, "Thus saith the Lord: Your worship of idols displeases me greatly, and kindles mine anger exceedingly against you."

The second example is more immediate, preserves the personal relationship with God, places us in front of him and gives us a sense of his nearness to and awareness of us. We use the principle of investiture all the time in every day conversations. How many times have you said something like this to a friend (say his name is Bill), "Yeah, John told me about what you did last night. 'Bill ticks me off, I swear I'm just gonna' kill him if he doesn't stop being a jerk!' I thought it was a bit harsh for him to say that, but then you did act pretty stupid!" We speak as if we are other people all the time...it carries more force to speak in the first person than to relate the gist of what we heard like this: "John told me he wants to kill you for being such a jerk the other night."

Anyway, regardless of whether you speak for others or not, the fact is that Jesus spoke as the Father through divine investiture, and hence even though Jesus was the Son of God the Father, he spoke as if he were God the Father when interacting with the Old Testament peoples.

Jesus was Jehovah; Jehovah was the mediator between Heavenly Father and fallen man; Heavenly Father invested Jehovah with authority to speak on His behalf; Jehovah spoke in the first person as if he were Heavenly Father; Jehovah was the God of the Old Testament; Jehovah and Heavenly Father are separate beings/Gods whose single goal is to help us return to Him/Them.

Simple, really. I know there'll be lots of explaining this away with other scriptures/reasoning, but I've tried to clearly explain the LDS view on this matter. Of course, Joseph Smith seeing two Beings who identified themselves as God the Father and God the Son (Jesus) clears things up significantly, but for those who don't accept such a vision as authentic, the evidence and principle are in the Bible. Jesus was Jehovah. Here are other scriptures related to this concept.

Jesus/Jehovah was the creator of the world. (Isaiah 45:11-12; John 1:1,3,14)

Jesus/Jehovah is the Savior. (Hosea 13:4; Luke 2:11)

Jesus/Jehovah is the Redeemer. (Isaiah 43:14; Galatians 3:13)

Jesus/Jehovah will deliver men from death. (Hosea 13:14; 1 Cor. 15:20-22)

The Jews will look upon Jesus/Jehovah who was pierced. (Zech. 12:10; John 19:34,36-37)

Jesus/Jehovah followed Israel in the wilderness during the Exodus. (Ex. 13:21-22; 1 Cor. 10:1-4)

Jesus/Jehovah is the Husband or Bridegroom. (Isaiah 54:5; Rev. 19:7-8)

Jesus/Jehovah is the first and the last, Alpha and Omega. (Isaiah 44:6; Rev. 1:8)

[Maureen]

Interestingly, trinitarians and others will use this scripture to prove that there is only one God but three expressions, since Paul calls Jesus the God of the Old Testament. After all, the God of the Old Testament identified himself as the Father in Heaven, and Jesus is clearly identified as the Son of the Father in Heaven, and since no one can be their own father or their own son, Jesus clearly is simply another expression of one God revealing Himself in different ways and in different times to different peoples.

I'm absolutely positive that trinitarianism has been explained to you before AK, but you still fail to grasp it's true meaning. What you have described above is modalism, not trinitarianism. Trinitarians believe that there is one God who exists in three persons, distinct from each other. The Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. They cannot switch with each other, they are who they are. They are together one God or individually one God. They are not expressions, they are distinct persons of the Godhead.

M.

[LionHeart]

Hey, thanks AK. That does clear things up.

BTW the book I referred to was called True To The Faith. It is a modern publication that can be purchased at Deseret Book.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...trinitarianism has been explained to you before AK, but you...have described...modalism, not trinitarianism.

Good point Maureen. My fault. I used the wrong term in a major way. In my defense, I did type this at 2am. I stand corrected. I amend my post to read that classic modalists will use 1 Cor. 10 and other scriptures to prove their doctrine, while I believe divine investiture negates such reasoning. Thanks for the correction M.

p.s. I brake for trinitarians. :)

[Traveler]

I read in an LDS book that said that according to LDS belief, Jesus and Jehova are the same indivdual; that Jesus is the one who communicated to the ancient prophets; the one who was called Jehova. This was new to me. I'm not sure what to make of it. Any comments?

I thought I would add a comment that is not often expressed concerning a unanswered and major problem of the "one" G-d theory. When Adam fell he and Eve were excommunicated from the Garden of G-d indicating that man is a "fallen from G-d being". Because of the fall of Adam, all mankind is also fallen from the original G-d the Father. In the most simple terms that I can explain - if man dealt with only "one" G-d before and after the fall that is the same G-d, then there was no real fall and need for a "Mediator" between G-d the Father and man. If there is and always was only one G-d then the doctrine of a Mediator is false and if the doctrine of a mediator is false there is no need of a universial savior to redeem our sins and therefore no atonement of the Christ.

But man is fallen and the doctrine of the fall is true. Since the fall of Adam all men have only one Mediator that is Jesus the Christ. Only through Jesus the Christ can man have concern with G-d the Father. This includes the blessings of the Father, receive the love of the Father, or return to the Father for either temporary or eternal relationship. Jesus is the mediator and the one and only G-d that can redeem man (which mean return man to G-d the Father).

The problem is that everything Jesus does as savior, mediator and G-d is in the Name of the Father. Because Jesus is a G-d acting in the name of the Father many (including Trinitarians) believe that he is the Father. Note than in the Ancient Suzerain Servant - Vassal structure of Kingdoms know throughout the ancient world, a servant Vassal of the Suzerain often spoke in the first person of the Suzerain. Often they would say "I have provided for you" or "I, your great King and Father have watched over you and driven away your enemies". But everyone knew it was the servant vassal and not the Suzerain. In our modern times we have lost this perspective of ancient Kingdoms and replaced it with our modern concepts of democratic government.

To summarize - if there is one G-d man is not fallen and there is no need for a mediator to take away our sins.

The Traveler

[JohnTaylor1886]

I read in an LDS book that said that according to LDS belief, Jesus and Jehova are the same indivdual; that Jesus is the one who communicated to the ancient prophets; the one who was called Jehova. This was new to me. I'm not sure what to make of it. Any comments?

As much as I can tell, this was not taught originally in the early days of the Church. It is not mentioned in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The only mention of Jehovah is on pages 220-221 of that book, and there are no references, implicit or explicit, that Jehovah is Jesus Chrst.

In an article by Robert Millet in BYU Studies, vol. 29 (1989), page 57, he cites a prayer given by Joseph Smith, and it says:

"O, thou who seeth and knoweth the hearts of all men; thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah, God; thou Elohim, that sitteth, as saith the Psalmist, enthroned in heaven; look down upon thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him, even the faith of Elijah; and let the lamp of eternal life be lit up in his heart, never to be taken away. And let the words of eternal life be poured upon the soul of thy servant, that he may know thy will, thy statutes, and thy commandments, and thy judgments to do them"

This can also be found in Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee, pp.252-253.

The way that this prayer is addressed, it seems that Jehovah is not a reference to Jesus Christ, but rather His Son. I also refer to a prayer given by Brigham Young, uttered near the end of his life, at General Conference 6 April 1877. It reads:

"Wilt thou hear our supplications and answer these our petitions, for we ask all, O Jehovah, in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior. Overthrow wickedness in the land and abomination of every kind. Enable us, thy children, to establish truth in the earth, never more to be taken away, to build up Thy Zion of the latter days and to accomplish every righteous desire of our hearts." (Brigham Young: The Man and His Work, Preston Nibley, Chapter 42, p. 530)

It would not be logical to address Jesus Christ in His own name, as any Latter-Day Saint will say that it is God to whom we pray in the name of Jesus Christ.

The conclusion that I have is that if there exists a doctrine of Jesus Christ as the being Jehovah, it most certainly was not taught as part of the original restoration, but had to have come sometime afterwards. The earliest proponents of that teaching (that has stated this to any real significant degree) were James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith.

I would certainly welcome any other insights given on this matter, if only to understand other points of view.

[CaptainTux]

Okay, this is an issue the missionaries always skirted around with me, without justification, references or long answers, I would simply like the short answer to start.

Does the LDS believe that there is one God in Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit-the Trinity), or are these three separate entities? If they are 3 separate entities, who is Jesus? Is he a god or merely a divine being of slightly higher rank than the angels?

This is not a trap, I need clarification.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Does the LDS believe that there is one God in Three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit-the Trinity), or are these three separate entities? If they are 3 separate entities, who is Jesus? Is he a god or merely a divine being of slightly higher rank than the angels?

We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. They are three separate beings. Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus in a vision, and they appeared as two separate beings. If the Holy Ghost had a physical hand to shake, you'd basically shake hands with three different personages if given the chance to meet the Godhead in person.

I don't know why the missionaries would've balked at clarifying that. It's one of our core doctrines. I'd be happy to answer any other questions my answer above might bring up.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

In an article by Robert Millet in BYU Studies, vol. 29 (1989), page 57, he cites a prayer given by Joseph Smith, and it says:

"...Jehovah, God; thou Elohim..."

No need to go to extra-canonical sources to show that the names Jehovah and Elohim/God the Father are sometimes used interchangeably. One of my favorite examples of divine investiture is right in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 109. This is the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland Temple, offered by Joseph Smith. Smith wrote that the prayer came to him as revelation, so it should be pretty authoritative. :)

In verse one, Joseph addresses the "God of Israel;" in verse four he addresses "Holy Father;" and in verse 42 he addresses "O Jehovah." Yes, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son. No, Joseph Smith was not praying to Jesus in this prayer. Divine investiture--again--is the principle that clears up everything.

God the Father--Heavenly Father--is the only God we pray to. Jesus, as Mediator between fallen mankind and God the Father, speaks on behalf of and represents God the Father. So even though Jesus is the God called Jehovah in the Old Testament, the one with whom Moses spoke face to face, Jesus was only representing God the Father and so there's no reason Joseph Smith can't address God the Father as Jehovah in D&C 109.

It's beyond dispute that Joseph Smith knew clearly that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were two separate beings (refer to his First Vision :)). Yet Joseph has no problem addressing Heavenly Father as Jehovah in a prayer given to him by revelation (D&C 109). If Heavenly Father revealed to Joseph Smith that it was okay to call Him Jehovah, I don't have a problem with it.

JT, saying that a doctrine wasn't prominent in the early Restoration doesn't mean it's not doctrine. I know you're fundamentalist, but Joseph Smith himself continued to reveal new church practices and even ordinances until his martyrdom in 1844. The whole premise of the Restoration was that all things that had been lost and some things that hadn't been given to mankind would be brought together in the last dispensation preceding Christ's Second Coming.

[CaptainTux]

Thanks for the direct answer AK! :) Now for the other part, if they are three separate beings, then who exactly is Jesus, and more importantly...what is Jesus? Is he a god, a spirit, an angel?

[miztrniceguy]

Thanks for the direct answer AK! :) Now for the other part, if they are three separate beings, then who exactly is Jesus, and more importantly...what is Jesus? Is he a god, a spirit, an angel?

Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father, and was born in the Flesh. He is a God, as is our Heavenly Father

Miztrniceguy

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...if they are three separate beings, then who exactly is Jesus, and more importantly...what is Jesus? Is he a god, a spirit, an angel?

Jesus is the firstborn spirit child of God our Father. LDS believe we are all spiritual children of Heavenly Father, meaning we received spiritual bodies from Him as we received physical bodies from our mortal parents. This makes Jesus our literal brother since we share a common Heavenly Father. :)

Through perfect obedience to God our Father in the pre-mortal existence, Jesus attained godhood before he was born in the flesh. He is one of three gods who constitute the Godhead, whose sole purpose is the exaltation of mankind to a fulness of joy. The Godhead is composed of: God the Father; God the Son (Jesus); and God the Testator (Holy Ghost). Feel free to inquire further if you wish.

[Dr T]

Hello all,

So AK, it 1,2,3 Gods not one God in 3 personages. Is that what you are tellling CT?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So AK, it 1,2,3 Gods not one God in 3 personages. Is that what you are tellling CT?

The Godhead is one council composed of three separate beings.

Congress is one legislative body composed of separate persons; so also is the Godhead. To be clear, I believe Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are separate beings with separate bodies (be they physical or spiritual) and separate minds. They are united in all things, thus becoming "one" in purpose, but separate in person. Three Gods united for one purpose.

[Paul Osborne]

Here is some source information from the Bible that teaches Jesus Christ is the Master of the Old Testament. I think it's worth book marking.

Jehovah's Witness

Paul O

[Traveler]

Thanks for the direct answer AK! :) Now for the other part, if they are three separate beings, then who exactly is Jesus, and more importantly...what is Jesus? Is he a god, a spirit, an angel?

The scriptures tell us a most interesting thing. I mentioned before about the fall of Adam and how that plays in Jesus being the meaditor G-d. The interesting thing concerns Adam as he is cast out of the Garden of G-d and Cherubim are placed to "keep" the way to the tree of life. Most Christians think a Cherubim is a rank of angel even though there is no scripture that says any such thing. This is interesting because Jesus said that he is the "way" or in other words he is in charge of the way - indicating that he is the cherub that keeps the way.

I am sure that there are many that think they understand the meaning of cherub as an angel so before you attempt to speculate I would ask what was the cherub given to keep the way. The symbol is a flaming sword. What is that and where in scripture can we find man encountering the symbol or symbols of fire and a sword linked directly to the salvation of man? How about in the Book of Revelation and the discription of Christ's second comming to judge the world?

The Traveler

[CaptainTux]

So is the lds belief one of polytheistic of more than one god?

Again, I appreciate the direct answers so far. Thank you.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So is the lds belief one of polytheistic of more than one god?

Yes and no. Polytheism is the "belief in or worship of more than one god."

LDS believe in the existence of three Gods (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), but only worship one God--the Father--who directs the other two (Jesus and the Holy Ghost).

Most Christians have a problem with saying there is "more than one God," because it smacks of Greco-Roman paganism or idolatrous inanity. Also, because of so many scriptures in the Old Testament that read something like, "I am the Lord; and there is no God beside me." Also in the New Testament, Paul's statement that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." I believe these scriptures focus on the fact that there is only one Savior--Jesus Christ--and no idols or other "gods" can save mankind. In that respect, we are not to "believe in or worship" other supposed gods.

Isaiah 43 is a perfect example of this concept.

verse 1: Jehovah is Israel's Redeemer.

verse 3: Jehovah is Israel's Savior.

verse 11: Jehovah says there is no Savior besides Him.

verse 12: Jehovah says that no "strange god" or idol saved Israel, and this proves He is God (He alone has power to save).

verse 14: Jehovah is Israel's Redeemer.

verse 25: Jehovah blots out Israel's sins--forgives them--as their Redeemer.

The fact that there is "only one God," seems inextricably linked with the fact that there is "only one Savior." What does a God do, really? Saves us. Idolaters thought their gods would save them from bad crops, infertility, disease, destruction, etc... Yet only Jehovah could save them from such things--and more importantly--blot out their sins.

Here's a very clear example of what I mean in one verse of scripture:

"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." (Hosea 13:4)

This verse is specific and to the point. Why should Israel "know" or worship no god but Jehovah? Because there is no savior other than Jehovah. There is one mediator between Heavenly Father and fallen mankind...Jesus Christ...and hence no reason for us to obey or serve any other being or supposed god who cannot bring us back to God our Father.

Well CaptainTux, that's my long answer to your short question. :) I just thought I'd preempt all the "but the Bible says there's only one God!" naysayers. I'm not setting out to convince you that the LDS view is the truth...though I believe it is...but rather, I want to make sure you fully understand the LDS view so you know what you're agreeing or disagreeing with. If I've been unclear in any of my comments, let me know and I'd be happy to address it in another post.

[CaptainTux]

Thanks again for the answer AK. No, this is not something I am here to debate. For the moment I just want strait answers without sugar coating or careful, but similar phrases (missionaries specialize in that). I appreciate strait answers and you have delivered.

[Dr T]

AK is good at that Captain T. Just be sure to ask clarifying questions to be sure you are talking about the same thing. Sometimes, we use the same word but actually mean something completely different.

[prisonchaplain]

So is the lds belief one of polytheistic of more than one god?

Again, I appreciate the direct answers so far. Thank you.

My understanding is that the LDS believe that the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are one God--with one mind, purpose, etc., but that they are essentially (or ontologically) three persons. Traditional Christians contend that such is not possible--three essential persons = 3 gods. LDS respond, no, we believe in three essential persons who are one God. You may not make sense of it, but that's what we believe. If I'm not mistaken, they also believe that Jesus, the Son, is subordinate to the Father, in that Father created Him (though Jesus, like us, is eternal).

[Guest ApostleKnight]

LDS respond, no, we believe in three essential persons who are one God.

Close PC. :) We believe in three separate beings who are each Gods. I wouldn't say they are "one God." I would say they form one Godhead or Heavenly Council, but saying "one God" gets confusing. LDS simply believe in three separate Gods united in bringing to pass the salvation and exaltation of mankind.

...they also believe that Jesus, the Son, is subordinate to the Father, in that Father created Him (though Jesus, like us, is eternal).

We don't believe Heavenly Father "created" Jesus. This gets a little deeper than CT's original question, but I'll repeat here what I've posted elsewhere. LDS believe there are three core parts to every mortal:

1) Intelligence (not knowledge, it's a term used in the Doctrine & Covenants to denote our core personality which was not created or made...this part of us has always existed and always will exist...call it consciousness if you want)

2) Spirit body (we believe our spirit birth was the combining of our intelligence (see above definition) with a body of spirit matter--with arms, legs, etc--in the image of God.)

3) Physical body (we believe our mortal birth was the combining of our spirit body with our physical body...think of a hand (spirit body) being put in a glove (physical body)).

Sorry for the plethora of parentheses. So we believe Jesus has always existed as an "intelligence." Heavenly Father didn't "create" the consciousness or personality that makes Jesus, well, Jesus. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the pre-existence, meaning Jesus was the first intelligence out of all of us to receive a spirit body in the image of God. God didn't create Jesus, merely his spirit body. But yes, Heavenly Father existed as a God before Jesus did, if that's what you're getting at by saying subordinate.

[prisonchaplain]

So we believe Jesus has always existed as an "intelligence." Heavenly Father didn't "create" the consciousness or personality that makes Jesus, well, Jesus. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of God in the pre-existence, meaning Jesus was the first intelligence out of all of us to receive a spirit body in the image of God. God didn't create Jesus, merely his spirit body. But yes, Heavenly Father existed as a God before Jesus did, if that's what you're getting at by saying subordinate.

AK, you are an excellent instructor. Thanks.

BTW, a question comes to mind. If we are all eternal intelligences, does that mean that God did NOT create our intelligence?