Jesus And Jehovah

[Ray]

Dr. T.: I have no idea what "intelligences" are. I was under the impression (based on what I'm reading) that they, whatever they are, have always been around. They are "eternal." If I'm incorrect on that, I'd love to learn/be corrected.

My personal belief on this issue centers around the idea that a totally perfect God is capable of creating forms of life with the capacity to possess intelligence, grow in intelligence, and also diminish in the degree of intelligence they possess… even to the point of losing all the intelligence they once had, even if they retain information they learned… and while it makes sense to refer to those forms of life as “intelligences” while they actually possess some degree of intelligence, it doesn’t necessarily make sense to say those beings have always existed simply because intelligence has always existed..

And yes, as you, I would also like to be corrected if I’m “off” by receiving God’s assurance on that.

Dr. T.: I thought, based on LDS teachings, that the person you worship as God was once a man. If, once a man, it seems to follow that he was once not god. Or do you believe that all men are already god?

First, you seem to be using the word “God” to refer to our Father in heaven, and then in your next sentence you seem to be using the word “god” to refer to… what? … His race? And yes, as I’ve already told you repeatedly, we [LDS] do believe both God and Man are of the very same race.

Ray: (affirming the idea that Man can become only almost as perfect as all Gods can ever be)

Dr. T: What do you mean there Ray? I see that you say there are different degrees of glory. Does that mean that you can attain a less than degree of glory of the god you currently worship? Is there lesser and greater gods in you belief system?

That’s one way of putting it, Doc. Or in other words, we [LDS] believe not all of us will become as perfectly glorious as our Father in heaven… but we also believe we all CAN be, by following Jesus Christ as our Lord as He reveals the will of our Father in heaven to us.

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

So to get this straight, when you say,

…it doesn’t necessarily make sense to say those beings have always existed simply because intelligence has always existed.

you are saying that when the intelligences are infused into the human body, then that being exists. Therefore, humans are not beings until the intelligences posses the bodily form?

You are also saying that the intelligences have always existed. We don’t know what they were like but they have always been. That is where my question comes in. Believing that they have always existed (somehow, someway) yet some people don’t believe that God has always been God doesn’t make sense to me. Now, you seem to believe that the species of god has always existed. I get confused though because you then say

… we [LDS] do believe both God and Man are of the very same race.

Can you clarify what you mean by species of god and race of god? That might help me understand what you are talking about.

Finally, sorry about not being clear in what you are trying to tell me but I have to ask again. Humans can become gods and attain different levels of glory and it is or is not possible to attain the same amount of glory as the Heavenly Father that you worship? So, in the end, when you (for the point of argument) become a god, will you be as glorious as the God you worship or a lesser god?

Thanks Ray,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Dr. T.: So to get this straight, when you say…

Ray: …it doesn’t necessarily make sense to say those beings have always existed simply because intelligence has always existed.

… you are saying that when the intelligences are infused into the human body, then that being exists. Therefore, humans are not beings until the intelligences posses the bodily form?

No. No. No. Keep asking more questions, Doc. It’s better than making assumptions.

First, I never used the word “human” and I wasn’t even thinking of the life forms that are now being born or created on Earth. I was thinking of the life forms God first created, when He created our spirits.

And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, according to my personal beliefs and official [LDS] doctrine, what you refer to as “human” is actually a form of life which possesses a spirit which was first created by God in heaven… or a form of life with a mortal physical body inhabited by a spiritual body.

And I was then going on to say that, according to my personal belief, when God first created our spiritual bodies He was actually creating the life itself, a life form which is capable of possessing intelligence and growing in intelligence as well as diminishing in intelligence.

Therefore, “human" is word used to refer to our form of life, a form of life that I know consists of a mortal physical body possessed by a spiritual body (which is not intelligence itself), but which can either possess intelligence, grow in intelligence, and diminish in all or degrees of intelligence… and again, those are my personal beliefs… which may or may not be supported by revelation from God… and I’m still waiting for His answer on that because it has not been revealed...to my knowledge.

Dr. T.: You are also saying that the intelligences have always existed. We don’t know what they were like but they have always been.

No, that is not what I’m saying, although that is what some other LDS say.

I am saying that although intelligence has always existed (which is supported by revelation), that doesn’t mean “we” have always existed, aside from the intelligence we have grown to possess, and I am also saying that the word “intelligences” doesn't necessarily convey the idea that "we" have always existed as an independent form of life.

Dr.T.: …(God not always being God doesn’t make sense to him)

Yeah, that wouldn’t make sense to me either. And fortunately I and most other LDS do not believe that idea.

Dr.T.: Now, you seem to believe that the species of god has always existed. I get confused though because you then say

Ray: … we [LDS] do believe both God and Man are of the very same race.

…Can you clarify what you mean by species of god and race of god? That might help me understand what you are talking about.

By species of God and race of God I am referring to the form of life known as God, from which Man was created with both male and female genders… the essentials of our species or race.

Finally, sorry about not being clear in what you are trying to tell me but I have to ask again. Humans can become gods and attain different levels of glory and it is or is not possible to attain the same amount of glory as the Heavenly Father that you worship?

Thank for the opportunity to restate what you thought I was saying, because you were “off” again.

And to use some of your words this time:

Humans (the form of life now referred to as human – and I think Satan inspired that word) (strike out “can become gods”) are already gods in embryo, and can attain different levels of glory (and all of us definitely will), and it is possible (strike out “is not possible”) to attain the same amount of glory (I would say the same degree of glory) as the Heavenly Father that you (and we all can) worship.

Dr.T.: So, in the end, when you (for the point of argument) become a god, will you be as glorious as the God you worship or a lesser god?

That will be determined on the day of my judgment.

But do me a favor and say prayers for me. I'll take all the help I can get. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Dr.T.: …(God not always being God doesn’t make sense to him)

Yeah, that wouldn’t make sense to me either. And fortunately I and most other LDS do not believe that idea.

When Dr. T talks about God not always being God (in his question), I believe he's referring to God's power, glory and authority, not his "race" or "species." I don't get why we're using words like "species" at all when describing our Father in Heaven. He looks like us, we look like Him...in the image of God...I think that's good enough. I think you're confusing Dr. T with this talk of race and species. Most of the time, when anyone asks if God was not always God, they are asking if He was not always perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc...

Dr. T, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ray]

Most of the time, when anyone asks if God was not always God, they are asking if He was not always perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, etc...

Okay, then ApostleKnight. Then why don' t you try answering that question, while trying to give the best answer you possibly can, to tell me and others if you really believe there was a time when God was not always God.

And while you are at it please also try to distinguish whether or not our Father was not always God.

And if you don't have enough light you can always ask God to turn the light on for you and for others.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...tell me and others if you really believe there was a time when God was not always God.

*sigh* I don't believe Heavenly Father was always in the position of perfection, omnipotence, omniscience, etc... that He now occupies. That's my personal belief. Now Ray, pay attention because I don't want my words twisted: by saying Heavenly Father was not always a god, I am not saying that He is somehow not descended from a god as we are descended from Him.

And if you don't have enough light you can always ask God to turn the light on for you and for others.

<AK looks around, shrugs, and continues typing> Well Ray, I'm not seeing a shortage of light so thanks, but I've got plenty already.

[boyando]

All I know, is that, I don't know.

If I say, I think there for I'am, but I don't think very well, does that mean, I'am very well when I don't?

We in the LDS church don't have all the answer's, yet. So give us a little time and all your qeustions about time and space will be answered. Even if it takes an eternity.

[LionHeart]

Thanks for your thought LionHeart. So, you believe that, with respect to existance, we (humans) are no different than God?

Precicely. As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Thanks for your thought LionHeart. So, you believe that, with respect to existance, we (humans) are no different than God?

Precicely. As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.

May I add - is there a difference between a zygote and an adult human? The supreme court says yes but a zygote is created with everything necessary to become human but there is a lot of evolution and motherly help necessary before it can be recognized as human.

The Traveler

[miztrniceguy]

All I know, is that, I don't know.

If I say, I think there for I'am, but I don't think very well, does that mean, I'am very well when I don't?

Cogito ergo zoom......i think, therefore i go fast lol

[Dr T]

Sorry for my delay in getting back to you all. Yes, I have been confused, I will continue asking questions, AK, you are correct, thanks LionHeart, I think a zygote and an adult are, in essence, the same-both human, and Ray, I will pray for you sir. I'll have to continue some other time. Thanks all.

Dr. T

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

...tell me and others if you really believe there was a time when God was not always God.

*sigh* I don't believe Heavenly Father was always in the position of perfection, omnipotence, omniscience, etc... that He now occupies. That's my personal belief. Now Ray, pay attention because I don't want my words twisted: by saying Heavenly Father was not always a god, I am not saying that He is somehow not descended from a god as we are descended from Him.

But what race or species would you say God, our Father in heaven, came from?

As I see it, there's one race or species, from which all men and angels and gods come, and I choose to say we all come from God, instead of Man... even though I do know that in the language of Adam, God means Man of perfect holiness.

Now, in the future, would you just try to share the truth instead of criticizing me for not saying things your way. Thank you. You're a god... although you're not yet perfect... but you can be, just as I can be, with God's help. :)

[Dr T]

Clear as mud to me

[Ray]

Clear as mud to me

What don't you understand, Doc? Or are you simply being funny?

You're a child of God... and a son of God... with a spiritual body and mortal body... which can become just as perfect as His.

And how long that will take only God really knows, but you'll have forever to think and do to follow Him.

And btw, the term "God" can also apply to our Lord and the Holy Ghost, not only our Father in heaven.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...there's one race or species, from which all men and angels and gods come, and I choose to say we all come from God, instead of Man

I never said we all come from Man. I simply don't consider the word "God" to describe a species, but rather a position of authority. When I use the word "God" and I'm not referring to our Heavenly Father, I'm referring to the position of sovereign supremacy that exalted beings occupy.

I know what you're saying, Ray, but the fact that we can become exalted beings (gods) does not stem from the fact that we were spiritually begotten by our God. It's a matter of priesthood authority according to D&C 132, not ancestry.

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:20)

The scripture above doesn't say, "Then shall they be gods, because they are descended from God, which is a species, and makes them gods, etc..." Mankind aren't gods, maybe "gods in embryo" but that's as far as we can take it. I'm a son of God, created in His image, with the potential to become like Him. Period.

[Ray]

ApostleKnight,

If it's not apparent to you yet, I still disagree with you when you say "that's it" and "period", because I know that is not it and there is still more to learn about this for those who want to know what I'm sharing.

And while you seem to want to avoid giving a complete answer to the question asking:

Where do we come from?

...as that question relates to our species or race...

... I still say "mankind" and "godkind", or "Man" and "God", are words that relate to our race... not one race for Man with another race for God... but one race I refer to as God's race, or God... instead of saying Gods come from the race known as Man.

But you can choose to believe, or choose to not believe, anything you want to believe, ApostleKnight.

I'm simply sharing what I personally know to be true about our race, because knowing more about where I came from made and continues to make a difference in helping me to know more about God... and me, and every other child of His race.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...not one race for Man with another race for God...instead of saying Gods come from the race known as Man.

Okay, okay, breathe AK, breathe...where the heck did I ever say Gods come from Man? Quote it! Please! I never said that! Aaaaaargggghhhhh!! Enough with the "species of God" thing! We are the spirit children of God our Father. Period. How is that saying God came from Man?

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

Maybe things could be clearer for me if you define what you mean by species.

Thank you

[Ray]

Okay, Dr. T. I’ll try one more time to explain this to you.

According to the Thesaurus I’m using, species is another word for class, type, kind, sort, genus, variety, group, and order.

And what I have been saying and trying to convey to you people is that all people who now live or who have ever lived or who will yet come to live on this Earth, or in other words, we…

…carry that thought as I say this again…

What I have been saying and trying to convey to you people is that we and our Lord and our Father in heaven are exactly the same in species … although all the rest of us, excluding our Lord and our Father in heaven…

… carry that thought as I say this again…

What I have been saying and trying to convey to you people is that we and our Lord and our Father in heaven are exactly the same in species … although all the rest of us have a long way to go before we become as ”perfect” as our Lord and our Father in heaven…. who some people refer to as God.

Or in other words…

The “origin of species” (sound familiar) some people refer to as Man, or Mankind, is literally and actually of the same exact species as that of our Lord and our Father in heaven … or in other words, Man and God are of the same species, the species some of us know as God… when not using the word God to refer to a specific being, such as our Lord or Father in heaven.

And btw, this idea is in contrast to several other ideas, including the ideas that:

1) what we call Man is one species, and what we call God is another or different species… when not using the word God to refer to one or more specific beings.

2) Man becomes God simply or only by receiving the priesthood of our Lord and our Father in heaven… because other species receive the priesthood by obeying the will of our Lord and our Father in heaven perfectly, knowing they have the priesthood and then doing everything they are asked or told to do, and yet none of those species can become as perfect as our Lord and our Father in heaven.

Now, I’m tired of this. I’ve already explained it. You can receive what I’m saying, or not. The choice is yours. I’ve shared the truth. And you can know ALL truth from God.

(And if saying that ticks you off again, ApostleKnight, we’ll just have to live with that)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

2) Man becomes God simply or only by receiving the priesthood of our Lord and our Father in heaven… because other species receive the priesthood by obeying the will of our Lord and our Father in heaven perfectly, knowing they have the priesthood and then doing everything they are asked or told to do, and yet none of those species can become as perfect as our Lord and our Father in heaven.

What other beings besides mankind receives the priesthood? Or to use your terminology, what other species other than "God" (including spirit children of God and those with mortal bodies) receives the priesthood? I've never heard of that.

[Dr T]

Raselphalvens?

[Ray]

Okay. Here we go again.

According to my thesaurus, “receive” means to: believe, accept, recognize, agree to, acknowledge, understand, and allow…

And some antonyms are to: deny, refute, reject, rebuff, contradict, and disagree with.

So, to my understanding, when some being, or some thing, “receives” the priesthood of God, they, or it, “accept, believe, recognize, agree to, acknowledge, understand, and allow” that power to work as they are told, without the tendency to “deny, refute, reject, rebuff, contradict, and disagree with” that power.

For example, mountains “receive” the priesthood of God by “receiving” what they are told, and we should learn to be like them when “receiving” the priesthood of God.

And btw, the same word is also used when we are told to “receive” the Holy Ghost. And if we “receive” it, and don’t “deny” it, that power will work in our lives.

But we CAN deny, as well as receive, that power to work as we're told, because He has given that choice to us, so we'll become what we do with that power.

[Dr T]

Does anyone else feel like we're on a merry-go-round?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

For example, mountains “receive” the priesthood of God by “receiving” what they are told, and we should learn to be like them when “receiving” the priesthood of God.

Ray, we're using parallel versions of English, even parallel versions of LDS terminology. If you asked a random LDS member what someone "receiving the priesthood" means, they'd tell you "being ordained to some office in the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods." I thought you were saying cheetahs could be deacons, or flamingos could be seventies. See my confusion? I've never heard someone say "receive the priesthood" to mean enjoying it's benefits or effects instead of being ordained. But whatever...I am getting seasick from the merry-go-round, I'm not feeling so merry anymore...I'm getting off! :)

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

For example, mountains “receive” the priesthood of God by “receiving” what they are told, and we should learn to be like them when “receiving” the priesthood of God.

Ray, we're using parallel versions of English, even parallel versions of LDS terminology.

I know that, ApostleKnight. We seem to do that a lot. But I'm not the one to say the other is wrong when the other is using other words. I've simply tried to say there is more to the words the other has used.