Physical Appearance

[Vort]

Got the hair and the eyes flipped. lol

Oops. So I did. Good catch!

[yjacket]

I'm an engineer so I tend to think in numbers. I think of perfect as complete, whole, unity. Perfect to me doesn't mean same. In engineering a variety of solutions exist to solve a problem and in many cases each solution is a perfect solution even though it is different from the rest.

So I personally think our resurrected bodies will be beautiful but different, maybe based on The Golden Ratio.

The Math Behind the Beauty

Using something like the golden ratio as a metric, everyone can be beautiful yet different.

[Backroads]

Good ol' golden ratio...

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm an engineer so I tend to think in numbers. I think of perfect as complete, whole, unity. Perfect to me doesn't mean same. In engineering a variety of solutions exist to solve a problem and in many cases each solution is a perfect solution even though it is different from the rest.

So I personally think our resurrected bodies will be beautiful but different, maybe based on The Golden Ratio.

The Math Behind the Beauty

Using something like the golden ratio as a metric, everyone can be beautiful yet different.

What is the value of different appearance to you then? What is the value of "different" to you, such that you would want that to continue in the next life?

[Backroads]

I just see it in the old why-alter-an-already-good-body into a completely different form? I just see our bodies as becoming perfectly healthy and whole.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I just see it in the old why-alter-an-already-good-body into a completely different form? I just see our bodies as becoming perfectly healthy and whole.

I see "healthy and whole" related to structure and function. In other words, appearance, in part, relates to health. Look at the effects of body habitus on health, physical mechanics.

I think once all those corrections are made to make it perfectly "healthy and whole" including all the physical wiring of the brain (neuroanatomy) that the plan for that perfect body would look pretty similar, I would think that the physical structure to perform all the duties of potential Godhood would require a set of physical characteristics that would be included in resurrection. Of course, I can't say what that is but I don't think it includes much random variables found in this life or driven by sinful acts in this life. (i.e. - my skin may not be light brown forever and remain a certain height and body habitus because my great, great, great, great grandfather who came from Spain had an affair with a woman of native central American descent - we all have something like that in our genetics somewhere.) I am not going to carry the mark of all of my ancestors choices forever, that doesn't make sense to me.

[Vort]

I am not going to carry the mark of all of my ancestors choices forever, that doesn't make sense to me.

Though I don't have much interest in this thread's topic, my eye was caught by SS's sentence above. I actually disagree with him, in that I believe that we carry in our bodies and also in our spirits the marks of the actions of those who have gone before. We think of ourselves as autonomous individuals, entirely separate from those around us, even our ancestors. I suspect this is grossly wrong. We without them cannot be made perfect, neither can they without us be made perfect.

There is a deep spiritual intimacy between us and our progenitors (and descendants). Our good efforts literally lift past and future generations closer to God. Similarly, our rebellions and poor choices have negative consequences far beyond the borders of our own souls. We cringe at this idea and wish to believe it false, that we are responsible only for our own selves and cannot be held responsible for anyone else's situation. But this is manifestly false. We are truly our brother's keeper.

[spamlds]

On beauty--

One of the most beautiful things I ever saw in my life happened as my wife and I were walking hand in hand through the halls of the Washington D.C. temple. As we turned one of the corners, there came an elderly couple walking towards us. Both of them were stooped over with age. The husband had his wife by the hand and they mutually steadied each other in their steps. You could see the light of the Spirit in their eyes. In a glance, you could tell they had weathered life's storms together faithfully.

We moved to the side and quietly greeted them. As they shuffled by, my wife gave my hand a little squeeze. Hopefully, we'll live that long together and still be going to the temple hand in hand in 40 years. I don't think I ever saw anything as beautiful as that old couple in the temple.

Don't sweat age, beauty, physical strength, intellectual prowess. Just be faithful and God will turn you and your life into something beautiful.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Though I don't have much interest in this thread's topic, my eye was caught by SS's sentence above. I actually disagree with him, in that I believe that we carry in our bodies and also in our spirits the marks of the actions of those who have gone before. We think of ourselves as autonomous individuals, entirely separate from those around us, even our ancestors. I suspect this is grossly wrong. We without them cannot be made perfect, neither can they without us be made perfect.

There is a deep spiritual intimacy between us and our progenitors (and descendants). Our good efforts literally lift past and future generations closer to God. Similarly, our rebellions and poor choices have negative consequences far beyond the borders of our own souls. We cringe at this idea and wish to believe it false, that we are responsible only for our own selves and cannot be held responsible for anyone else's situation. But this is manifestly false. We are truly our brother's keeper.

It's 'her', by the way.

Make sure not to take this out of context, I was referring to carry on the mark into the next life, not this one. I agree that we carry on the mark of our ancestors in the body we currently have, that was a point I was making but after judgement and after we receive our glory by becoming resurrected beings I don't see why that 'mark' would continue, after restitution has been made and accounted for.

Vort, this is exactly one of the reasons I find this topic interesting. I agree, I see in the gospel this need to maintain blood line information for some reason but it isn't talked about very much. I have pondered the significance of what it means to Jesus to be the son of David. Being the Son of God seems to be a little better understood. And why there might be the effect of sins of one generation carried on. Or to receive the priesthood based in one's lineage. But, I think your second paragraph there is more exact, there are "spiritual" intimacies with progenitors and descendants, not that we have to maintain genetic intimacies. In the end, most of us are adopted into the covenant anyways, I don't see how genetics matters much at that point.

I don't think though that we will be judged by our relatives actions if we have done all that we can or if they did something before we were around. I don't think Lehi will be punished for Laman and Lemuel's sins for example. And there were many righteous 'lamanites' that followed and are descendents of Laman.

During this life, I agree that the blessings and grief we bring by our choices can extend to generations in both directions but if I cause grief or lack of blessings in either direction that will have to be paid for by me at some point, this life or the next, not by them. If I fail to do my genealogy and miss the opportunity to perform ordinances for family members, they may suffer in waiting for a while but I will have to ultimately pay the price for that negligence. If I fail to teach my children well, that may extend many generations into the future, but I will be responsible for that, not them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

On beauty--

One of the most beautiful things I ever saw in my life happened as my wife and I were walking hand in hand through the halls of the Washington D.C. temple. As we turned one of the corners, there came an elderly couple walking towards us. Both of them were stooped over with age. The husband had his wife by the hand and they mutually steadied each other in their steps. You could see the light of the Spirit in their eyes. In a glance, you could tell they had weathered life's storms together faithfully.

We moved to the side and quietly greeted them. As they shuffled by, my wife gave my hand a little squeeze. Hopefully, we'll live that long together and still be going to the temple hand in hand in 40 years. I don't think I ever saw anything as beautiful as that old couple in the temple.

Don't sweat age, beauty, physical strength, intellectual prowess. Just be faithful and God will turn you and your life into something beautiful.

This seems to be the most common message, which I agree with too. ... "You could see the light of the Spirit in their eyes." In other words, the outside doesn't matter, it is spiritual beauty that matters. That goes along with the message that there is no need to maintain our variable physical appearances into the next life as most would agree that it is the spiritual beauty that matters. Physical uniqueness is not what made that couple beautiful. Physical uniqueness is not needed in the world to come, at least the highest level of the kingdom, from what I can tell. Seeing true beauty, as this wonderful example so stated, is one of recognizing spiritual beauty not physical differences or uniqueness.

[Backroads]

Yet if the soul is the union of bodies and spirit, I believe much of how the body is will remain. I understand your defintion of perfection and wholeness of the body, seminarysnoozer, but I imagine beauty being defined differently, not meaning a complete lack of differences.

[Peanutterrier2009]

We're sort of beating this old horse to death. I guess it comes down to what you consider beautiful. As I see it, the things that make us unattractive are defects in our bodies. The body is beautiful in it's perfect form. Malformed joints, crooked teeth, scars, acne, wieght, etc... All these affect function as well as appearence. If everything was as it should be, in my opinion, we would all be beautiful, though remain quite distinct. Long legs, short legs, skin color, hair color, eye color. These things do not add nor detract from beauty or function, as I see it... My understanding of what makes one beautiful is far more simple than what our cultural norms suggests. I'm simply suggesting that, when our defects are corrected, we will look outstanding or at least, a far cry better than we may look now.

[applepansy]

We're sort of beating this old horse to death.

Sorry.... couldn't resist.

[ztodd]

Statement A: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So... is there an absolute perfect beauty, independent of the beholder? Not if statement A is true - not in this life.

Is there in the next life? Only if statement A is no longer true in the next life.

So now the question is, will we all come to have the same tastes in the next life? Will we all think the same things are beautiful?

We know that God does not look on the outward appearance, but He looks on the heart. So as we become more like God, we will do the same thing.

Does that mean we won't have unique preferences anymore for what we find beautiful? Perhaps so... We may just find perfect beauty in all people.

,

[KevlarH]

An interesting subject. I have read in the book of Mormon a scripture that said something like not a hair of their heads would be lost, so obviously we won't be bald. I would think if someone was burned or born with a defect, those imperfections would be healed and our bodies perfected. If those kinds of imperfections are made right, then I would think other kinds would too. Such as body weight? I've never seen an artist drawing of a fat angel, except cherubs. LOL! I have always thought that we would not be so oddly out of place in size or height and that we would not be physically displeasing in appearance. I've always believed that with the exception of gaining some of the physical attributes of our parents, that we would pretty much return to what our spirit bodies must have looked like before we were born. I dunno, thats just the way I've always thought.

[Seminarysnoozer]

An interesting subject. I have read in the book of Mormon a scripture that said something like not a hair of their heads would be lost, so obviously we won't be bald. I would think if someone was burned or born with a defect, those imperfections would be healed and our bodies perfected. If those kinds of imperfections are made right, then I would think other kinds would too. Such as body weight? I've never seen an artist drawing of a fat angel, except cherubs. LOL! I have always thought that we would not be so oddly out of place in size or height and that we would not be physically displeasing in appearance. I've always believed that with the exception of gaining some of the physical attributes of our parents, that we would pretty much return to what our spirit bodies must have looked like before we were born. I dunno, thats just the way I've always thought.

Just keep in mind the possibility that where it says "lost" it isn't necessarily talking about the aging process or male pattern baldness, what was "lost" occurred during the Fall of Adam. That is was the resurrection recovers from its loss. Imperfections are a result of the Fall, the resurrection recovers all those losses over the generations.

[spamlds]

If faith is the power to move mountains and to heal mortals suffering from various ailments, might it not be the case that faith is the power to turn into reality what we can envision spiritually? In that case, I suppose that faith is the power to transform our resurrected bodies into whatever we consider ideal. Like anything else regarding faith, I don't suppose this would happen without effort on our part. In that case, beauty is what a righteous soul thinks it should look like, manifested in the physical body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yet if the soul is the union of bodies and spirit, I believe much of how the body is will remain. I understand your defintion of perfection and wholeness of the body, seminarysnoozer, but I imagine beauty being defined differently, not meaning a complete lack of differences.

Then tell me specifically what the value of differences in appearance brings while in the Celestial Kingdom besides being able to identify people (because I don't buy that as the means in which we identify people, I think it will be a spiritual knowledge). Why is it that you would want to have that continue, if it is not, in part, because you love yourself? You love your uniqueness or difference in appearance?

I mean, I can understand if someone were to wear the same prom dress as me to the prom, that would have made me furious and so I picked one that I thought nobody would have a chance of matching. Since then I have matured, now, when I am in the temple, it doesn't bother me one bit if someone else was wearing the same dress. That is a place where I don't esteem myself any higher than anyone else and there is no need to be different, it's an escape from this world were people would find it odd if a group of people where wearing the same clothes and there is almost an unspoken requirement to 'stand out' 'be yourself' express yourself' ... those are all self-centered statements.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If faith is the power to move mountains and to heal mortals suffering from various ailments, might it not be the case that faith is the power to turn into reality what we can envision spiritually? In that case, I suppose that faith is the power to transform our resurrected bodies into whatever we consider ideal. Like anything else regarding faith, I don't suppose this would happen without effort on our part. In that case, beauty is what a righteous soul thinks it should look like, manifested in the physical body.

If that is the case, that we could meta-morph into whatever, then for sure I would say that we would not want to pick the form of a corrupted body ... we would not look like we did here. .... and when we are 100% righteous, i.e. the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom I don't think that "what a righteous soul thinks it should look like" would have much of a standard deviation.

I've heard similar claims as to the possibility of changing appearance, I don't think that is in our gospel anywhere though.

[Backroads]

Then tell me specifically what the value of differences in appearance brings while in the Celestial Kingdom besides being able to identify people (because I don't buy that as the means in which we identify people, I think it will be a spiritual knowledge). Why is it that you would want to have that continue, if it is not, in part, because you love yourself? You love your uniqueness or difference in appearance?

I mean, I can understand if someone were to wear the same prom dress as me to the prom, that would have made me furious and so I picked one that I thought nobody would have a chance of matching. Since then I have matured, now, when I am in the temple, it doesn't bother me one bit if someone else was wearing the same dress. That is a place where I don't esteem myself any higher than anyone else and there is no need to be different, it's an escape from this world were people would find it odd if a group of people where wearing the same clothes and there is almost an unspoken requirement to 'stand out' 'be yourself' express yourself' ... those are all self-centered statements.

I actually see no value in differences, but I also see no value in going out of our way to avoid differences. I don't see myself as arguing this from a "I want to look like me!" but more from a perspective that everything was created spiritually before physically, that our bodies WILL be resurrected--not some other bodies. I still don't see a sure argument for us all being physical clones.

[FunkyTown]

I actually see no value in differences, but I also see no value in going out of our way to avoid differences. I don't see myself as arguing this from a "I want to look like me!" but more from a perspective that everything was created spiritually before physically, that our bodies WILL be resurrected--not some other bodies. I still don't see a sure argument for us all being physical clones.

Also, if I'm resurrected to look like everyone else, how will anyone know to say "Whoah! That guy is what Buddha would call a 'Hottie with a naughty body'."

I'm pretty sure he said that some time. He said a lot of things.

[Backroads]

Also, if I'm resurrected to look like everyone else, how will anyone know to say "Whoah! That guy is what Buddha would call a 'Hottie with a naughty body'."

I'm pretty sure he said that some time. He said a lot of things.

He did say a lot of things, though I doubt that line would have been something his more devout followers would have supported. Why not, I don't know.

[FunkyTown]

He did say a lot of things, though I doubt that line would have been something his more devout followers would have supported. Why not, I don't know.

You can't pick and choose history based on what makes us comfortable. No whitewashing the past! If Buddha would have agreed I was a grade a piece of beefcake, then we have to stand by that.

[Backroads]

You can't pick and choose history based on what makes us comfortable. No whitewashing the past! If Buddha would have agreed I was a grade a piece of beefcake, then we have to stand by that.

Sigh. What can you do?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I actually see no value in differences, but I also see no value in going out of our way to avoid differences. I don't see myself as arguing this from a "I want to look like me!" but more from a perspective that everything was created spiritually before physically, that our bodies WILL be resurrected--not some other bodies. I still don't see a sure argument for us all being physical clones.

Of course there is no sure argument for this, that is why we are discussing this, it is not clear. And I appreciate your patience with me in discussing it, thank you.

I think it is one of those things that becomes common knowledge only because everyone assumes that "not one hair lost" is referring to their current condition and not to what happened with the Fall. By discussing this we can better understand the implications of the Fall and therefore the atonement and resurrection. ... I have also worked in the medical field and so the topic is interesting to me. Thanks again. Just keep in mind too, most bodies of people who have lived in this world will have been completely destroyed at the time of resurrection, they are dust, basic elements, nothing more. And that this life is a temporary condition in which stewardships (not ownership) is given, which includes our bodies.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer