Mormonism and the creation of the universe

[Vort]

OK Vort, we agree to disagree (read the link at least, please).

When you are talking about experimental proof, there is no "agree to disagree". Either an experiment demonstrates something or it does not. That is the nature of experimental proof. There is no squishy middle ground.

[Traveler]

OK Vort, we agree to disagree (read the link at least, please).

Doss, There are several problems with your link. It is trying to deal with theoretical physics which in essence is the effort to explain the unexplainable. One basic concept of science and physics is the isotropic empirical nature of our universe. This is an assumption and a defining principle of science which includes the fringes of theoretical physics. When we speak of isotropic empirical nature - this means that a true principle that exists anywhere in space time is true in all occurrences of space time.

The assertion in the provided link as follows: “If things can pop into being, then anything and everything can, without restriction and with no probability attaching to the fact.” This statement shows a genuine lack of understanding by the author of the link. It is restating a possible position in such a manner that it can be easily disputed - But the statement itself is a validation of theoretical physics and no one should pretend to know what they are doing and make such an obvious blunder.

But let me please take you somewhere else. If we are going to employ theoretical physics - we must play by the rules of physics. Otherwise, it is like saying in mathematics that we will prove something about imaginary numbers employing the rules of real number theory. In short such thinking is flawed - I can easily prove that +1 =-1 under such a ridiculous scenario.

Thus the problem I have with anyone trying to use science (theoretical physics) to demonstrate creation from nothing - they can only do so by immediately violating the rules of the game. That is that they must violate the isotropic empirical nature of our universe. They must begin by saying that something happened that violates every principle of science and physics that we have established. Most assuredly the second law of thermodynamics. In essence quantum mechanics may seem to violate the second law with “things that can pop into being and disappear again” But in reality this is a space time distortion problem that creates a seeming paradox and thus a most interesting solution.

However the main problem with something from nothing is that there is no continuing evidence but instead the opposite is most evident - thus the reason for the second law of thermodynamics. Using the rules of theoretical physics and following the isotropic empirical rule - if the second law of thermodynamics is true then a G-d that creates something from nothing either no longer exists or the concept is false in real space time defined by theoretical physics. In short you are shooting yourself in the foot before you begin to argue the notion of creation from nothing using theoretical physics.

Now if you want to argue the existence of G-d with theoretical physicists; I have a splendid argument that you can use if you are interested. But it will take you places in “Mormon” theology that you may not be willing to go - but if you are interested - I will take you there.

The Traveler