No New Thing Under The Sun

[Traveler]

I find it amazing that those that oppose G-d's work use the same tactics today as they did anciently. For example: Jesus was called a Samaritan. This was the way those that opposed him tried to accuse Jesus of not being Jewish. Today it is not a question about being Jewish but being Christian so the opposition today uses the same tactics of the Pharisees and Scribes would call true followers of Christ “not Christian”.

Here is another example: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS are attacked for their doctrine and not their deeds (See John Chapter 10). The opposition of Christ attempted to stone Jesus for his doctrine and not his deeds.

Here is another interesting idea. Paul said not to preach any other gospel. Those that oppose the

Church of Jesus Christ of LDS say we preach another gospel - but is it not interesting that these same so-called Christians that teach this also publish and distribute their version of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS doctrine. But they should not teach our gospel if it was not true - so why do they bring it up our doctrine?

There is more but this should give readers the idea.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hello Traveler,

What do you mean Jesus was called a Samaritan? I'm not familiar with that. From where did you get that?

Thanks

[Traveler]

Hello Traveler,

What do you mean Jesus was called a Samaritan? I'm not familiar with that. From where did you get that?

Thanks

John 8:Verse 46-48

46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Let us not forget that the Jews had all the same scriptures that Jesus had - Should we rely on scripture as our first understanding?

John 7:Verse 45-49

45 ¶ Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

A few important points. The words of Jesus caused a great division of the people who up til then were more or less members of a single 2000 year old traditional religion. He was opposed overwhelmingly by the religious establishment and clergy. Those that followed him were accused of not knowing the scriptures and teaching contrary to the scriptures (the law) by the most acclaimed experts of the Jewish religion. If Jesus were to come this week end to where you worshiped in the same manner that he came to where the Jews worshiped - how would you know - by what the experts say is in scripture?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hello Traveled one,

My befuddlement was from the claim that people thought the Jesus was a Samaritan. As you are aware, there was immense hatred/conflict between the Israelite and Samaritan people. In the Jn. 8 passage that you posted, they are not actually saying that Jesus was literally a Samaritan from birth. They were basically making an accusation of "having things so backwards that He didn't know what He was talking about." Remember "A Samaritan" means more than "no Israelite at all"; it means one who pretended, but had no manner of claim to the title." It was a putdown of sorts.

Dr. T

[CaptainTux]

With all due respect, you speak as if this is a problem unique to the LDS. There are books, websites, and pamphlets that accuse many denomiations in Christianity of being wrong. This is done in many cases of warping the beliefs of a denomination and exagerration and, at times, outright falsehoods. I just spent 15 minutes on google and found websites and books that assault the lds, catholicism, assemblies of god, baptists, lutherans, missionary alliance, jews for jesus, methodists, and the amish (which is particularly unfair since they cannot respond to the websites content).

Many faiths like the lds and the catholics call themselves the one true church. That belief, in and of itself, may be perceived by some as a direct attack on their belief and may feel this is a proper response.

One thing that the lds has in common with catholicism is extra books that do not exist in the rest of the protestant faiths. You have the Book of Mormon and the Catholics have some additions to the OT that do not exist in the OT of protestants. To some, these extra books are not recognized and are a threat since they are foreign to what they know to be The Bible.

Who is right? What books are correct to have and call God's word and what books are not? I dunno. I did not build the Earth in six days.

Anyway, my point is that the attacks on a belief or set of doctrines is not unique to the lds.

[Traveler]

The point I wish to make is not about the church of Jesus Christ of LDS being the only religion to receive religious attacks nor do I want to highlight any particular faith for attacks. My point is that the attackers are not Christian and their methods are the same. Jesus talked about wolfs in sheep's clothing that come among the flock pretending to understand G-d's mercy but intending to show no mercy.

Often we think the enemy of my enemy is my friend so if we do not like someone or some religion we tend to enjoy attacks and insults made by their enemies. My point is that this is not Christian. The Samaritans were enemies of Jews but Jesus taught that any person doing good is a friend to all that are respect goodness. Jesus criticized those of his same Jewish faith for their false deeds and recognized the Samaritans that were enemies to the Jews for their good deeds even though the Samaritans were known for their false doctrines.

In general I find that most religious peoples tend to criticize others for doctrine and care little about their deeds or fruit. I would like to make my stand clear - I will stand by anyone that treats their enemies with forgiveness, kindness and love. I will stand against anyone that treat others with venom and contempt - especially in environments where the accuser has no voice (like a publication).

The Traveler

[CaptainTux]

Point taken, my apologies. I would still say that some of those who launch attacks may still be Christians, just misguided ones.

The freaks that shoot abortion doctors and bomb clinics may have a very devout belief and may very well be written in the Book of Life. Their actions are sinful and reprehensible, but it is a tough call for me to say where they are with the creator. Their fruits are horrible and disgusting, but it is hard for me to say who is and who is not a christian.

Some people just get really bad teaching.

[Traveler]

Point taken, my apologies. I would still say that some of those who launch attacks may still be Christians, just misguided ones.

The freaks that shoot abortion doctors and bomb clinics may have a very devout belief and may very well be written in the Book of Life. Their actions are sinful and reprehensible, but it is a tough call for me to say where they are with the creator. Their fruits are horrible and disgusting, but it is hard for me to say who is and who is not a christian.

Some people just get really bad teaching.

I think Jesus was very clear on how to identify his followers. I think he said something like "By this shall you know my disciples - if they have loved one to another." Jesus also said that we will do the deeds of him that we worship in our hearts. If we worship G-d we will do his will. But if we worship Satan in our hearts we will do his will. Please understand that I did not make up this concept or idea but I do believe it. When the Jews heard this doctrine they wanted to kill Jesus and the Jews were the covenant people??? BTW Jesus said that the desire to take life is most extream expression of Satan's will.

The Traveler

[Ray]

BTW Jesus said that the desire to take life is most extreme expression of Satan's will.

And wishing or wanting someone to have never existed is the same as wanting them dead.

[CaptainTux]

Question: How many sins does it take to lose salvation?

[Ray]

Only one... if the one who commits it never repents.

But there is also a sin which, once committed, cannot be repented of... called murder.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Ray's first answer is spot on. Well done Ray.

But there is also a sin which, once committed, cannot be repented of... called murder.

Really? Because I thought D&C 76:31-38, 43-44 says something completely different. The unpardonable sin--variously called blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, or denying the Holy Ghost--is defined here:

"[Jesus] glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D&C 76:43)

Sons of Perdition...the only ones who will not eventually be forgiven of their sins...are those who know through and through that God lives, that Christ is the Savior, and then denies these things. Joseph Smith explained it by saying a person would have to stand outside during the day and say the sun isn't shining, as an example. Those who deny Jesus after he has been revealed to them in perfect clarity and is right before them, will not be forgiven.

But Ray, if you have a scripture defining the unpardonable sin as murdering someone, I'd like to read it. Note: Murdering just any mortal is not the same as "crucifying Christ afresh, whereby we spill innocent blood." Sons of Perdition know who Christ is and of his role as Savior, and would--if they had the chance--crucify him themselves while knowing who they crucify (unlike the Romans who had no idea). By denying Christ and his sacrifice, they are symbolically crucifying Christ again.

[Ray]

Okay, ApostleKnight. Tell me this answer to this.

Will David, the son of Jesse, the man who was once a king and a prophet, receive salvation in the kingdom of God, or will he receive a lesser salvation in one of God's lesser kingdoms?

Perhaps you didn't realize I was referring to salvation in the highest kingdom of God???

And btw, I can make any point I want to make by simply using the scriptures, but using the scriptures to know the truth takes more than simply using those words.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

And btw, I can make any point I want to make by simply using the scriptures, but using the scriptures to know the truth takes more than simply using those words.

After reading that, I'm not even gonna' bother.

[Traveler]

Just for the record AK and Ray: I believe anyone that wants in their heart to overcome evil that the L-rd will help them. I also believe anyone that wants into the top place in the Celestial Kingdom will be there. I believe the people that will not make it are those that once they understand what the CK is really like; then realize that they want to be somewhere else. The rest is just semantics and misunderstandings.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Ray, I believe that murder is forgivable/pardonable. An example is when the soldiers crucified Jesus. What did Jesus say to the Father? AK is correct. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin. I also agree with you Ray. It only takes one sin to not be saved. Thank God for Jesus’ life, death and resurrection! Jesus wipes away all past, present, and future sin. I agree with you also in repentance, conforming your life to the life of Christ and I disagree with you that if someone doesn’t repent of a sin, he will not be in heaven. What of those people who die before then repent of a lustful thought? Just curious Ray, how many times a day do you repent of sins you commit?

Thanks

[Ray]

Dr. T: Ray, I believe that murder is forgivable/pardonable. An example is when the soldiers crucified Jesus. What did Jesus say to the Father?

A definition of murder may help, and I’d define murder as intentionally killing (or having someone else kill) someone while knowing there is no good reason to kill… and what is good is known by God.

And those soldiers were innocent in the sight of God because they only knew they were righteously following orders. Or in other words, the soldiers were right to follow orders of their authorized leaders, not knowing they and their leaders were actually killing someone who was innocent of doing any wrong.

Dr. T: AK is correct.

I’m sure he appreciates the support you are giving him, but I’d rather get my support from God.

Dr. T: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unpardonable sin.

The world now has scripture revealed by our Lord which defines what the unpardonable sin is, and if you’re sincerely interested in finding the truth on that topic, you’ll find D&C section 132:27 will help in your quest, as well as this topic right here.

Dr.T: I also agree with you Ray.

Well golly. I’m honored. I feel all tingly. But let’s also try to agree with God, shall we?

Dr.T: It only takes one sin to not be saved. Thank God for Jesus’ life, death and resurrection! Jesus wipes away all past, present, and future sin.

Most, but not all sins… and then only when we repent. And there is a sin which is totally unpardonable.

Oh, I see, you and I don’t agree on that point. So where was it that you said we agree?

Dr.T: I agree with you also in repentance, conforming your life to the life of Christ…

So then let’s both continue to do that, shall we?

Dr.T: … I disagree with you that if someone doesn’t repent of a sin, he will not be in heaven. What of those people who die before then repent of a lustful thought?

It takes less than a second to turn towards God. Are you suggesting there isn’t enough time?

Dr. T: Just curious Ray, how many times a day do you repent of sins you commit?

I repent ALL the time… when I know I’m not turned towards God. :)

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

Here is what God says about it: Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Ray, will you please educate me on how to post something like you did? You wrote a D&C link and also did it when you said, "here." How do you do that?

Thank you

[Ray]

Doc,

To try to make this simple for you, blasphemy against the Holy Ghost involves murder... as you should have been able to see in that link I gave you.

And to see how to reference a hyperlink, try quoting what I wrote, to see how I did that in that post.

[Dr T]

Hi Ray,

I'll try quoting it from your last post to find out. That is a great idea. As far as blasphemy of the H.S. is concerned it is not connected to murder sir. It has to do with speaking against, (attributing the Holy Spirits' work to Satan) the Holy Spirit." If you’d like, reread the context in the Bible.

Thanks

[Ray]

Ok, Doc, I'll try one more time to try to explain what I meant to you.

According to that scripture you quoted from Matthew, our Lord said blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was and is the unpardonable sin. I got that. I understand that. I have no problem with that scripture. But the question then becomes, what does and did our Lord mean by saying "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" ?

Now, you can think whatever you want, but you'll only be correct by agreeing with our Lord, by knowing what He meant by saying that, and our Lord does not define that phrase in those scriptures that Matthew wrote for you and me to read.

So, where can we find a defintion of that term, if not from those scriptures by Matthew?

As I said, you can find it in D&C section 132, as our Lord explained those words to Joseph Smith.

[shanstress70]

Hi Ray,

I'll try quoting it from your last post to find out. That is a great idea. As far as blasphemy of the H.S. is concerned it is not connected to murder sir. It has to do with speaking against, (attributing the Holy Spirits' work to Satan) the Holy Spirit." If you’d like, reread the context in the Bible.

Thanks

When you click on 'Reply', there is a row of icons in the top of the text box. Click on the one that is a globe with a chain link. You will then be prompted for the web link (URL), and whatever text you want to label it with - this is where Ray labeled it "here".

[Ray]

That's one way to do it, I guess.

The key is in using the following formula: "whatever"

Where "U" is "url", "X" is the address displayed in your Address Bar from your internet browser, and "whatever" can be anything you want to type, even nothing.

And I think it's interesting to see what happens when you don't type anything for "whatever" in the formula.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

...blasphemy against the Holy Ghost involves murder... as you should have been able to see in that link I gave you.

Yes, Ray, it does, but not just any murder. The scripture you quoted has deeper meaning than that which you attribute to it. I'll reproduce it here and clarify with bold words:

"The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord." (D&C 132:27)

You're reading it like it was puncuated as follows:

"...in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood. And assent unto my death, after..."

But the comma between the words "blood" and "and" is a connective mark of grammar, linking the preceding and following concepts and marking them as related. I'll be clear. Jesus is saying that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the same as spilling Christ's innocent blood, as if we were present in the crowd who cried to Pilate, "Crucify him! Crucify him!" Why?

The Jews were plainly told who Jesus was, they saw his miracles, heard his doctrine, had no excuse not to believe, yet rejected him anyway. They "spilled innocent blood" by "assenting to his death" and when we reject Christ after he has been plainly manifested to us, we are as the Jewish leaders who stirred up the Romans to murder our Savior.

This is clearly shown from the Synoptic mentions of the doctrine. Examine Matthew 12 along with Mark 3 for example. Both chapters record how Jesus cast devils out of men. Both record the scribes/Pharisees accusing him of casting out devils by the power of Beelzebub, not the power of God. Jesus explains how ridiculous this is (a house divided against itself cannot stand), and then says that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unpardonable.

The power of God was manifest to the Pharisees, they saw Jesus perform miracles, and out of stubborn pride and malice they denied what they plainly saw. The Gospel of Mark makes this connection clear when it explains that Jesus taught the doctrine of the unpardonable sin, "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." (Mark 3:29) There is no mention of murder in the sense of someone killing their fellow man/woman.

To make it even plainer, let me quote the Prophet Joseph Smith:

"No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost" (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (TPJS, p. 358; compare Heb. 10:26-29).

If anyone has this knowledge and willfully turns away completely, they sin against light, sin against the Holy Ghost, and figuratively "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6; D&C 76:35). Such remain as though there were no Atonement, except that they shall be resurrected from the dead (Alma 11:41).

One last reference to solidify the doctrine:

"They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;"

"For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;"

"Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come--"

"Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame." (D&C 76:32-35)

So Ray, the only way murder is connected with the unpardonable sin, is that those who deny the light are as guilty as the Jews who knew who Christ was and had him crucified--murdered--anyway. Murderers we hear about on the news and such are awful people, but even they shall inherit the Telestial Glory. They can't receive exaltation--or as Rev. 22 says, enter into the city and partake of the tree of life--but they remain with whoremongers, liars, etc... (Rev. 22:15) which D&C 76 says will inherit the Telestial Kingdom.

Only Sons of Perdition will suffer the second death--be cast into outer darkness with no degree of glory or nearness to God's influence--since they denied the light just as Satan did in the premortal existence.

We must be precise in matters of doctrine, especially when dealing with the one thing we can't be forgiven of!

[Dr T]

Thank you Shan. That helps.