Two ways to repent?

[Guest saintish]

1. Out of fear. The sinner comes to his senses and realizes that he will have to face the consequences of his shortcomings. He tries desperately to get out of having to "face the music" by repenting his sins. There is not necessarily any joy involved in the accomplishment of such repentance. It was not his sins themselves that upset such a penitent; it was their anticipated consequences. He may sincerely regret having committed his sins, but he would be even happier if he could have his cake and eat it too. If he could be shown how to sin with impunity he would gladly do so.

2. Out of love. The sinner is upset more by the fact that he lost his close connection with God through his sins than he is by the thought of the punishment. The loss of God's love and trust is the greatest possible punishment in his eyes. His repentance is an attempt to be restored to God's favor so that he might feel the power of God's love once again. When such repentance is accepted it is the cause of the greatest joy. Once again the penitent basks in the warmth of God's love. Once again he is God's favored child.

from:What About Sin and Repentance

This is From a jewish source, my question is does this apply in the church and if so are both sincere forms of repentance? It would seem that the first would not be considered sincere repentance, what are your thoughts?

[skalenfehl]

If you have a copy of the Book of Mormon, I recommend reading Alma 5. I don't think true repentance was explained more clearly.

Alma 5

[Just_A_Guy]

A proposition:

1) = terrestrial repentance.

2) = celestial repentance.

An alternate proposition:

1 ≠ repentance because there has been no change of heart.

[Guest saintish]

A proposition:

1) = terrestrial repentance.

2) = celestial repentance.

An alternate proposition:

1 ≠ repentance because there has been no change of heart.

and i suppose telestial repenance would be no repentance at all right?

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm not sure I completely agree with my own suggested paradigm, but I'd flesh it out as follows:

Celestial = repentance based on love of an unseen God

Terrestrial = repentance based on fear of an unseen God

Telestial = repentance based on fear of a seen God ("every knee finally bows and every tongue confesses"--because they have finally seen Him in His glory)

Outer darkness = no repentance at all.

[skippy740]

I'm not sure I completely agree with my own suggested paradigm, but I'd flesh it out as follows:

Celestial = repentance based on love of an unseen God

Terrestrial = repentance based on fear of an unseen God

Telestial = repentance based on fear of a seen God ("every knee finally bows and every tongue confesses"--because they have finally seen Him in His glory)

Outer darkness = no repentance at all.

I disagree.

Telestial are those who received NOT the testimony of Jesus. (D&C 76:82)

These are they who are thrust down to hell. (D&C 76:84)

They suffer Endless and Eternal punishment. (D&C 19:10-13)

10For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

They (the Terrestial) suffer for their own sins instead of calling upon and covenanting with the Savior.

[Guest saintish]

This is all very interesting speculation but I guess my original question was; are both of these legitimate forms of repentance? Can one say they have truly repented and been forgiven if it is based on #1?

[Vort]

This is all very interesting speculation but I guess my original question was; are both of these legitimate forms of repentance? Can one say they have truly repented and been forgiven if it is based on #1?

I agree with saintish. Repentence is fundamentally a change of heart. It might start out from fear of getting caught or fear of punishment, and that's fine; but if it never goes any deeper than that, it ain't repentence.

[Just_A_Guy]

Skippy, I agree with you from a penal-substitution theory standpoint.

But there's more to getting into a kingdom of glory than having the debt of your sins be paid. You must not only be cleansed, but become the kind of individual who will remain clean. There's no point in redeeming a fornicator if he's going to start fornicating again as soon as he gets into the Telestial Kingdom.

We are given to understand that, after the resurrection, the TK is (more or less) a happy place. I don't see how that could be possible if it were full of unreformed adulterers, liars, robbers, and murderers. It seems logical that, at some point, every person who inherits a kingdom of glory will have made a conscious decision to do things the Lord's way and then bases all future actions on that one decision. I think that process can properly be deemed "repentance"; though maybe we're arguing semantics at this stage.

[slamjet]

Telestial - Whatever.

Terrestrial - I'm Sorry.

Celestial - What have I done! I'm so, so sorry, what can I do to make it right?

At least that's the way I understand it because all this going back to Hebrew words are way over my simpleton head.

[Guest saintish]

@vort, I think we are in agreement although i'm not sure #1 doesn't technically fulfill the requirements for repentance, the motivation the key difference between #1 and #2

[Vort]

@vort, I think we are in agreement although i'm not sure #1 doesn't technically fulfill the requirements for repentance, the motivation the key difference between #1 and #2

I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as "technically fulfilling the requirements for repentance." Repentance is not a rote procedure, like changing the oil in your car. It requires a change of heart, which is much more than a technical criterion to be met.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is From a jewish source, my question is does this apply in the church and if so are both sincere forms of repentance? It would seem that the first would not be considered sincere repentance, what are your thoughts?

I think part of #2 reason could be split off and put into #1. If the person is "upset" they have lost connection with God, that, to me, is fear. So, it is the fear of loosing connection with God. And, I think what should be included in #2 reason, is the desire to build faith in Jesus. The ultimate goal of repentance is not only cleansing of sins but a building of faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel. The repentance process, in other words, is not one in which there is a zero sum gain but one in which, in the end, there is a gain, there is a gain in faith more than what was there before.

I heard a story once, not sure if it is true but I was told that shepherds of old would take a baby lamb and break one of its legs. Then the lamb could be held close to the Shepherd and learn the masters voice and gain a trust in him. He would hold him until it fully healed. Then when the leg healed the lamb wouldn't wander off and stay close to his Shepherd throughout his whole life. ... that is the value of repentance.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[volgadon]

The Hebrew for repentance does NOT have the connotation of fear. It literally means to return. Repenting is returning to God. There is a beautiful parable about a king who wrote his son and askedhim to return. The son said he couldn't go that far. The kking replied go as far as you can and I will meet you there.

For anyone interested in Jewish views on repentance I heartily recommend S. Y. Agnon's 'Days of Awe.'

[HEthePrimate]

One form of repentance may be more sincere than another, but I'd say that even if it's not for the right reasons, it's better that a person stop sinning than continue. If the person "repented" out of fear, at least he stopped doing the problematic behavior, and there's always a chance that sometime in the future his heart will change, too, and become truly sincere.

[HEthePrimate]

I agree with saintish. Repentence is fundamentally a change of heart. It might start out from fear of getting caught or fear of punishment, and that's fine; but if it never goes any deeper than that, it ain't repentence.

If repentance is thought of as a turning away from sin, then stopping the sin may be a form of repentance, if not for the right reasons. If a thief decides to stop stealing because she doesn't want to go to jail, well, the people she would have stolen from will be glad not to lose their stuff, even if the thief hasn't repented for the right reasons.

But you're right that it isn't ideal, and that true repentance involves a change of heart.

[skalenfehl]

What God wants is a changed man. A changed heart. If you have turned from the Lord to some sin, you have changed course; your heart has changed. When you turn back to the Lord with full sincerity, with heaven in your heart again, this is a change of heart. This is what the Lord wants. This is why we will be judged "according to our works, according to the desires of our hearts." It is our hearts that dictate our thoughts and actions, hence our works. If our works are meet for repentance and forgiveness, the Lord gives it freely. Alma 5 explains this clearly. Whether we do it out of fear or love, is not as important as the change that takes place in us. It doesn't get any simpler than this.

As for the kingdoms, each kingdom is bound by laws. To inherit the Celestial Kingdom, one must have lived Celestial laws. Same for Terrestrial and Telestial laws. Telestial bodies cannot abide Terrestrial glory or Celestial glory. Likewise, Terrestrial bodies cannot abide Celestial glory. When Christ returns, those who did not abide Terrestrial and Celestial laws (chastity, tithing, etc) will not endure and burn as stubble. This is why the earth and all Telestial abiding people will burn as stubble with fervent heat. We are all living on the Earth in a Telestial state. Some of us live Celestial laws, some Terrestrial laws, most Telestial laws. When Christ returns during the Millenium, those who remain will live in a Terrestrial state for a period until the final judgement where everyone will then inherit their reward according to the laws they lived.

Edited June 25, 2011 by skalenfehl

[Avrham]

I believe that God wants a changed man and change only happens from inside of the heart because I personally believe that a persons actions reflect their heart , I suppose repentence is a good starting point which should lead to one's heart:)