Immigration - Let's have at it!

[prisonchaplain]

Pam posted a thread about a rodeo announcer's joke about illegal immigrants. My sense is that many are chomping at the bit to comment about immigration itself. So, I say let's have at it.

My own view is that illegal immigration, especially from Mexico, is a crime, but not a serious one. I base this on our punishment and enforcement. We generally deport, and occasionally "get serious" by offering short jail terms for repeat violators.

The difficulties with our laws are:

1. Inconsistent enforcement

2. Easy entry

3. Incredibly inefficient, cumbersome, inconsistent, and lengthy road to LEGAL immigration.

Another difficulty, on the moral side, is that both political parties benefit from the status quo.

1. Democrats get to portray Republicans as racist, heartless zenophobes.

2. Republicans get to portray Democrats as lawless, reckless, and less dedicated to American nationalism.

3. Businesses get really cheap labor, because the illegal workers have not legal standing.

The solution is rather simple, but nobody really wants it. More immigration workers need to be hired to process the paperwork, so our LEGAL immigration can become reasonable. Why should anyone we actually want in our country have to wait more than two years? Today some wait more than 14. It's absurd.

Once we have a handle on legal entry, we can focus on our weak spots with illegal entry. Why? If the legal path is reasonably attainable, the quantity of illegal traffic should decrease. Also, we'll know that a far greater % of those illegals are really up to no good.

Sorry, but the bottom line solution is more government pencil-pushers! Who would imagine a self-proclaimed conservative saying such a thing?

[LDSJewess]

Good Topic Chaplain!

Whenever the topic comes up in any discussion as to the Immigration policies, people to automatically think in terms of the US/Mexico borders and the illegial immigration of Mexicans. And although I see this as a problem, I think there is a much greater problem regarding illegal entry into the USA that people rarely if ever discuss.

Regarding immigration from Mexico, I think if jobs are not available, and welfare is not available to non US citizens, there would not be much incentive to cross the border. But for those that do, in spite of the news, many illegal Mexicans come here for work and opportunity much the way our more legal ancestors did.

But what I see as the REAL problem is the people who come here through legal loop holes not to work, but to stay and recruit terrorist cells. They don't intend to find jobs. They intend to find or become suicide bombers. And they are not Mexicans. They are Arabs that have loads of cash and so they don't need to sneak across the border. They fly in to our major airports and pay cash to attend college on student VISAS. This is how the 9-11 terrorists arrived and stayed.

And the reason our country is doing nothing about it is shear economics.

A large majority of our American children have to apply for government loans and grants which cost the government money. The colleges need the tuition money to function. So foreign students with cash in hand are pretty freely welcomed. And these "student Visa" immigrants rarely go back when their visas expire, and they move about the country and are a threat to US citizens. Many create and /or join campus clubs that sympathize with Anti American agenda.

I think if we as a country have concerns for immigration, we need to address the greater problems, rather than just trying to build a fence across Texas, Arizona and Claifornia; while the Arabs are flying and landing into Los Angeles, Dallas, Chiciago, New York and Detroit and Omaha etc:

[Traveler]

Pam posted a thread about a rodeo announcer's joke about illegal immigrants. My sense is that many are chomping at the bit to comment about immigration itself. So, I say let's have at it.

My own view is that illegal immigration, especially from Mexico, is a crime, but not a serious one. I base this on our punishment and enforcement. We generally deport, and occasionally "get serious" by offering short jail terms for repeat violators.

The difficulties with our laws are:

1. Inconsistent enforcement

2. Easy entry

3. Incredibly inefficient, cumbersome, inconsistent, and lengthy road to LEGAL immigration.

Another difficulty, on the moral side, is that both political parties benefit from the status quo.

1. Democrats get to portray Republicans as racist, heartless zenophobes.

2. Republicans get to portray Democrats as lawless, reckless, and less dedicated to American nationalism.

3. Businesses get really cheap labor, because the illegal workers have not legal standing.

The solution is rather simple, but nobody really wants it. More immigration workers need to be hired to process the paperwork, so our LEGAL immigration can become reasonable. Why should anyone we actually want in our country have to wait more than two years? Today some wait more than 14. It's absurd.

Once we have a handle on legal entry, we can focus on our weak spots with illegal entry. Why? If the legal path is reasonably attainable, the quantity of illegal traffic should decrease. Also, we'll know that a far greater % of those illegals are really up to no good.

Sorry, but the bottom line solution is more government pencil-pushers! Who would imagine a self-proclaimed conservative saying such a thing?

PC. I agree and disagree with most of you post.

First - I do not think that the major problem is our immigration laws. I believe the greater problem is the corruption of the country of Mexico. I do not believe anything we do in our country will solve the problem - in fact the more we do to make our law enforcement just the greater problem we will have with the corruption in Mexico.

Second - I agree that many within our two party political system and society are abusing the situation. But I believe humanity should be far more concerned with the exploitation of illegal’s (including political, social, economic and cultural) than with tasteless humor or possible racial slurs. Is there no humanity in the realization that whatever illegal’s endure in this country it is minor and considered worth it for millions to come here than rather than to try to live in their homelands. Do we not realize that of the few that come illegally that they are the minority of the many trying and planning to come?

Get a clue people - Mexico is a country with the world’s richest resources and thus the world’s greatest opportunity. The only reason the Mexican economy borders on poverty and why Mexico is not a super power to rival the USA is because Mexico is corrupt and exploits it own citizens shamefully and we do nothing in the USA but support the shame of Mexico and exploit their refugees for our own purposes. And in our stupidity we are importing the corruption of Mexico at every opportunity.

Sorry PC - I do not see your suggestions as a solution but rather a temporary bandage aimed at nothing more than a fleeting chance at feeling good or foolishly thinking we are humane or remotely intelligent.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

First off, the way the US laws on immigration are written, being an illegal immigrant is NOT a crime. It is established as a civil law issue.

The problem with immigration is one that has always plagued the USA. Before the Civil War, people cried that the Catholic Irish were going to ruin the nation. There was even a political party established, the "Know Nothings", to fight against Irish immigration.

The war on drugs, poverty and illegal immigration have all failed. And they are tied together. Because we do not have a sane immigration policy for good people to immigrate here, they sneak in. Why stay in Guatemala or Honduras where hurricanes have wiped out the economy and crops, and where your children will die of starvation, when you can come here? Why risk the corruption of the Mexican government and drug cartels, when it is safer in the USA?

We need to make the borders secure, not to keep immigrants out, but to keep drugs and terrorists out.

Then, we need to increase the numbers of legal immigrants that can come here by millions. We need to especially invite those in the Americas to immigrate here, as they can adapt to American culture quickly.

We require them to learn English, to learn about American history and the Constitution, and their responsibility to the nation.

For those illegals already here, we give them work visas and allow them to remain. If they want to become citizens, they must do one of two things: 1. return to their own country and apply, or 2. enter the US military and after successful service they and their family can apply for citizenship.

For those immigrants who are involved in violent or serious crimes, we build jails down in Central or South America, where they can serve their sentences. They are no longer a risk to us here, and we help employ poor Hispanic people at a wage (say $10/hour), where they will be upper middle class and less prone to bribes. We save millions in housing them here, and it reduces their desire to bring gangs and drugs here.

With new and hard-working immigrants moving in, we reinvigorate our national pride, freedom, and focus. We have more people to pay into Social Security and Medicare, so that our retirees are cared for longer without having to change the system as radically. It becomes a win-win for them and us.

[Guest Sachi001]

Well since you want a serious discussion. Here's my 2 cents worth.

First let's stop looking at illegal immigration as a Mexico border problem only. The fact it's a serious problem in not just them, but Asians, Africans, and Europeans. Yes many from Europe still overstay there visas. Go ask many in NY or Boston on Irish or Russian etc....

Second it is serious and not minor. Though many come with good intent for making a better life. There are the minority who are here for perverted or eventually wind up in the wrong elements. Do I need to emphasize such?

The seriousness of the problem, and we have all heard the arguments such as a toll on the welfare system, the crime, or taking jobs or human enslavement. It is because like the Pilgrims who escaped religious persecution or the Spanish who came to steal gold and enslave the native population. This was in large part due to their inability to stay within the confines of their country to solve their own economic and political problems and to seek glory and riches. This country did the same with it's "Manifest Destiny" and other European Imperialism over the American continents.

IMO the USA has committed wrongs in it's illegal immigration past history. However I cannot change that, nor do realistically think the USA will not regress either in territory. If we look at it realistically it's a matter of conquest be it economic or war through attrition.

The only way of solving such a problem is to get real serious about it. I am from Texas originally and live in Hawaii. So I understand much about illegal immigration. Just ask a local Hawaiian, and he will give you an earful of the Hawaiian monarchy being illegally taken over by the haoles from the mainland. We are all illegal to them. Another long story though.

Anyhow it is virtually impossible to expect local enforcement, and border patrol to keep illegals from crossing. Go down to Big Bend National Park and drive to Presideo, Texas. Hundreds of vast open miles to cross and difficult to watch even with the modern equipment. Heck most of the year you can walk across the Rio Grande and barely get your ankles wet. I showed this to my wife. I crossed into Mexico illegally and walked back and forth. Nothing happened. I say how hard it is for home security, and if you don't believe it ask the military. They patrol the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. However they cannot monitor every bit of wilderness terrain to see enemy movement. Even with drones flying above.

The only way we can combat this is to give illegals an excuse not to come. IMO that means political and economic help in make their countries life worth staying and residing in it's borders. Just think about it. If you had as a Chinese or Mexican or Albanian the ability to live our way of life in the land you were born. Would you leave?

[prisonchaplain]

Everyone has valid observations. This surely is a complex issue that brings great passion. A question though: Would we not be able to get a bitter handle on our ILLEGAL immigration, if we first gained control and efficiency with our LEGAL process?

[Guest Sachi001]

"Would we not be able to get a bitter handle on our ILLEGAL immigration, if we first gained control and efficiency with our LEGAL process?"

LOL PC that was funny.

Serious though. Yeah it would help. but we are talking about our legal system here. I don't have much faith political lawyers. Too many have their own agendas.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm recalling my favorite professor, who used to announce on the first day of class, "Typos are a sin!!!"

As for immigration control...we don't need lawyers...we just need processors to move the backlog of applications along more quickly. Once we tame the pile, we can start to institute selection standards that give us more control over who comes in.

I still believe that once the path to legal immigration is logical and efficient, we'll have a smaller illegal immigration problem, and be able to focus better on realistic solutions.

[rameumptom]

Sachi001,

Your solution would not work. We already send billions in aid to most poor nations already. Either the money is kept by their crooked regimes, or there is never enough to go around.

The reality is, until those nations have honest governments, recognize private property rights, Provide good schooling and encourage free enterprise, there will not be a change. We cannot change all of those factors, with the exception of helping with the schooling maybe.

We can control our border. We just haven't built appropriate fencing. Guess what? The Berlin Wall kept most east Germans from entering into West Berlin. The DMZ between the 2 Koreas has successfully kept most people from escaping North Korea. There are many other instances on how well this can work. We just have not built a real fence along the border yet. In the places where we have decent fencing, illegal immigration has greatly gone down. Politics, however, keep the fence from ever being actually completed.

Then, if you allow lots of legal immigration, then it reduces greatly the illegal immigration. There are fewer people to catch at the border, because it becomes easier for them to come in the legal way. As for those who stay beyond their work/school visas, we are crazy to let talented people from Europe and elsewhere leave. Why have a MIT graduate from India go back to Mumbai to work, when we can keep his brains and talents here benefiting us?

When you create a draconian method to handle the situation, it ends up reducing our own freedoms. Do I want INS/ICE stopping me and asking for proof of citizenship? You see what happened to our Homeland Security program. It initially sought to keep us safe. Now through the TSA and other similar programs, it is here to reduce our freedoms. We are not any safer if they are inspecting a 95 year old woman's diaper. But we are less free.

Opening up legal immigration, providing a way for illegals to stay on work permits, and securing our borders for purposes of stopping drugs, human slavery transport, and terrorists, will fix most of our problem. Will we stop all illegal immigration? Of course not. But we can make it a winning solution.

[Mahone]

First let's stop looking at illegal immigration as a Mexico border problem only. The fact it's a serious problem in not just them, but Asians, Africans, and Europeans. Yes many from Europe still overstay there visas. Go ask many in NY or Boston on Irish or Russian etc....

Just out of interest, here are the official stats (the top 10) for those that migrated to the USA legally. As for whether those there illegally roughly tally, that remains up for debate.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Mahone

[rameumptom]

I don't quite understand the stats. Does it mean that in 2000 we only allowed a few hundred thousand, and then millions from 2004 and 2010? And why is 2010 showing up twice with different numbers?

[Mahone]

I don't quite understand the stats. Does it mean that in 2000 we only allowed a few hundred thousand, and then millions from 2004 and 2010? And why is 2010 showing up twice with different numbers?

It's easier if I take a screenshot than copy and paste, seeing as the forum doesn't support HTML. Fixed.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Mahone

[rameumptom]

Much better. Looks like the top 10 take up 1/2 the slots. Still, bringing in 1/2 million per year for the top 10 (that would suggest 1 million/year total) is not very many. We should up it for a few years to 4 or 5 million per year. They would not be allowed welfare. And Medicare, health assistance only with a very big deductible ($5000 or more) if they want the government to provide.

[Guest Sachi001]

Sachi001,

Your solution would not work. We already send billions in aid to most poor nations already. Either the money is kept by their crooked regimes, or there is never enough to go around.

The reality is, until those nations have honest governments, recognize private property rights, Provide good schooling and encourage free enterprise, there will not be a change. We cannot change all of those factors, with the exception of helping with the schooling maybe.

We can control our border. We just haven't built appropriate fencing. Guess what? The Berlin Wall kept most east Germans from entering into West Berlin. The DMZ between the 2 Korea's has successfully kept most people from escaping North Korea. There are many other instances on how well this can work. We just have not built a real fence along the border yet. In the places where we have decent fencing, illegal immigration has greatly gone down. Politics, however, keep the fence from ever being actually completed.

Then, if you allow lots of legal immigration, then it reduces greatly the illegal immigration. There are fewer people to catch at the border, because it becomes easier for them to come in the legal way. As for those who stay beyond their work/school visas, we are crazy to let talented people from Europe and elsewhere leave. Why have a MIT graduate from India go back to Mumbai to work, when we can keep his brains and talents here benefiting us?

When you create a draconian method to handle the situation, it ends up reducing our own freedoms. Do I want INS/ICE stopping me and asking for proof of citizenship? You see what happened to our Homeland Security program. It initially sought to keep us safe. Now through the TSA and other similar programs, it is here to reduce our freedoms. We are not any safer if they are inspecting a 95 year old woman's diaper. But we are less free.

Opening up legal immigration, providing a way for illegals to stay on work permits, and securing our borders for purposes of stopping drugs, human slavery transport, and terrorists, will fix most of our problem. Will we stop all illegal immigration? Of course not. But we can make it a winning solution.

Well I do say it can work. You just don't give the money however. You assign Americans to oversee with auditing. Just as we do in the church in the welfare system. Most time we just hand over the money with conditions that are for private business concessions in return Such as mining rights or military bases etc.... IMF already loans us money where we make monetary policy change. That alone is enough proof that such help will work if done and asserted correctly. Just don't give their leaders blank checks. We need to dictate where it goes etc...

Second the Berlin Wall worked basically to keep people in and not out. West Germany was not clamoring to go in to a poorer nation. East Germans were being shot to escape their conditions. Therefore we should ask Mexico to build a wall along the border and shoot their own people to stay in. Hey I know let's just be like the Communist Korea and Soviet Union. We'll shoot you as you come over the fence. That will keep them out.

Third - you apparently don't live along the Rio Grande. Build a wall and it won't stop them. It's not a small area to monitor like Korea and Germany. Once you climb over you can disappear real easily in the vast plateaus of Texas. Why don't you ask the Comanches. Heck even US tourists at Big Bend cross over illegally into Mexico to the tourists villages in Mexico. Your talking about 1969 miles of border and at 20 miles inland of USA that's 39380 square miles to patrol. Reality check there. Your going to have to pull all the troops home to watch. Tell you what we will just put that area under martial law. Therefore the troops can pull you over, go into your home, or business at anytime without reason and search and detain you. I promise after a couple of months of that. My fellow Texans are going to have a fit and want them out or fight. just look at the TSA pat downs as example.

You better start thinking out of the box than a fence or military patrol.

Fourth like I said it's not all Mexico either. Go to the port of Los Angeles. Check how many containers are loaded with illegal Chinese. No way can you search them all in a day.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Sachi001

[rameumptom]

There is no way to stop all illegal immigration. Trying to fix it by spending billions in other nations won't work. If a nation isn't ready to change its methods to freedom, private property rights, etc., then no amount of money will fix anything. We have already spent hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign aid, with little or no real effect. Just look at the hundreds of billions spent in Afghanistan. Yet, as soon as we leave, those schools and hospitals will essentially close down and be useless again.

The more aid we pump into other nations, the more the peoples of those nations end up being on American welfare, just without the food stamps or WIC.

Instead, if we're going to spend money, let's spend it on people HERE. Let's help immigration work, and educate them so they can make this a better place for all of us. Then as with previous immigrants, they become part of the American dream and lift us as they lift themselves.

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

Where do I start?

Well, I think the immigration system is insanely flawed. The bottom line, I believe, is that we need to make legal immigration far easier and crack down far harder on illegal immigration. Skilled workers are having to wait several years to get in. If it were relatively easy to get in legally, obviously that'd significantly reduce the number of people that feel the need to get in illegally.

Other things I think would help:

- Wall/fence on the entire US/Mexico border

- Guest worker visas for those areas where there is a shortage of workers

- Actual enforcement of the law. Employment is just one area where proof of citizenship (or otherwise being here legally) should be required and monitored. We don't need to search everyone, but anyone who gets stopped or arrested should get checked out.

- No welfare or government assistance for illegals

- Repeal the 14th amendment as it pertains to citizenship on birth

- Completely remove the military and other government funding to foreign countries and focus on the problems in our own country (that's a whole other discussion, I know). If there's any country we need to be invading to try to improve conditions, it's Mexico. And not by throwing money at the problem - teach them to fish rather than giving them fish (or tacos, in this case? ).

Before anyone asks - yes I realize that there's illegal immigration from many different countries, but fact is, the major problems stem for the most part from Mexico. We have to address the most direct issue first rather than pointing at people overstaying their visas.

[john doe]

I think PC may be onto something with his idea. We as a nation need to come up with a sensible plan to accommodate those who wish to come here legally. And we need to accommodate them in large numbers, at least to start with.

One of my biggest issues with illegal immigrants is that they are using our infrastructure without paying any taxes to help support that infrastructure. We need to figure out a way to make those who are using the system help pay for it.

One possible way to deal with that problem is to entirely change our taxing system and switch from an income tax to a use tax. But realistically, that is probably wouldn't happen unless we had a complete collapse of the current system. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

So we need to turn illegals into taxpayers. How do we do this? First, we need to find a way to push the immigration policies and procedures to make it easier to make those who want to be here to work into legal workers who have tax numbers and do it in such a way that employers will have incentives to not hire anyone who does not have a tax number. Guest worker cards embedded with security measures and fingerprints could be issued and given to each immigrant who come here looking for work. Fraud would be vigorously prosecuted, with severe sanctions for fraud. No one works without their unique guest worker number, and all numbers would be routinely run through a national database to track and check for irregularities.

Guest workers would pay into SSI but would not be eligible for any benefits for 10 years with certain work requirements, and a lower payout schedule than citizens and permanent residents.

Any true attempt at turning illegals into legal workers will necessarily make the costs of goods they aid in producing go up. That's just a natural byproduct of doing that, and we need to face that fact. We won't like it, but if they are going to be paying taxes into the system, their employers will be raising prices to cover those costs.

And those are just my off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on the issue. I could be totally nuts, or I change my mind tomorrow.

[Saldrin]

Lock down the border, both north and south. repeal the 1964, and 1986 laws. deport as we come across them. Until those steps are done in my view discussing other stuff would be useless.

[applepansy]

Get a clue people - Mexico is a country with the world’s richest resources and thus the world’s greatest opportunity. The only reason the Mexican economy borders on poverty and why Mexico is not a super power to rival the USA is because Mexico is corrupt and exploits it own citizens shamefully and we do nothing in the USA but support the shame of Mexico and exploit their refugees for our own purposes. And in our stupidity we are importing the corruption of Mexico at every opportunity.

I agree! Some of the stories we hear from the people my husband works with are so outrageous its hard to believe. But the corruption is very real.....and we are importing it.

Most of the American people are motivated to stop illegal immigration. Its our elected officials who are turning their back on the problem and the people there were elected to serve.

Edited July 5, 2011 by applepansy

[Backroads]

I'm very much in support of fixing the legal system. Make it tigther, more efficient. Make it easier for those who want to do it legally while securing the boarders for those who don't want to do it legally (and let's be honest, if we get easy and efficient, most people will be happy to go the legal route).

I like immigration. We are a nation of immigrants and I for one appreciate the different cultures that are brought in. I don't like illegal immigration. I have enough issues with the welfare system as it is without illegals using it. But I've also seen way too many human faces on the issue.

My father-in-law runs a ranch and a quarry and is a huge support of work visas and similar ideas. But he also hates going through the skimble-skamble process of legally bringing workers over and then having them jump over to some easier, illegal route.