the Church as a Legal Identity.

[Guest saintish]

"Does it bother you that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't exist? It's a trademark not a church."

This is a question posed to me. Does is matter how the church is organized as a legal identity? In fact the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Is a trademark of the Corporation of the First Presidency and not technically the name of a church. All buildings and property belong to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric. (as i understand it i could be wrong on that point.) Does this matter or is it an immaterial technicality.

[Just_A_Guy]

Churches are not per se legal entities in the United States. Any church that wishes to own property (whether real, tangible, or intangible--the latter including trademarks and intellectual property), and/or manage money must form a legal entity under traditional corporate law; the LDS Church has chosen to do so through the Corporation of the President, the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop, and a slough of subsidiaries.

There are churches that, to some degree or other, give their members a financial or management stake in the legal entity. The LDS Church elects not to do that, because we take it as an article of faith that the Church is not ours but God's; and God has already appointed the managers He wishes to have running things.

When people say "doesn't it bother you that you aren't a member of the corporation?", what they're really asking (though they may not know it themselves) is "doesn't it bother you that you have no legal means of controlling your church's activities?"

Edited July 5, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest saintish]

That is probably right, then again who really does have any control over their churches activities.

[CaptainEm]

It's easy to control the activities of the Little Church by the Brooke in Genericsville, USA, but the LDS church is huge. As are a lot of other churches.

[bytebear]

The presiding Bishopric just like your local bishop is responsible for the temporal needs of the church. so, it only makes sense that the church is set up the way it is.

[maiku]

Churches are not per se legal entities in the United States. Any church that wishes to own property (whether real, tangible, or intangible--the latter including trademarks and intellectual property), and/or manage money must form a legal entity under traditional corporate law; the LDS Church has chosen to do so through the Corporation of the President, the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop, and a slough of subsidiaries.

There are churches that, to some degree or other, give their members a financial or management stake in the legal entity. The LDS Church elects not to do that, because we take it as an article of faith that the Church is not ours but God's; and God has already appointed the managers He wishes to have running things.

When people say "doesn't it bother you that you aren't a member of the corporation?", what they're really asking (though they may not know it themselves) is "doesn't it bother you that you have no legal means of controlling your church's activities?"

I love it!

I'd also just like to briefly add that the Church is defined as a group of PEOPLE not a group of buildings so the person asking you this question simply doesn't know what a church is. We could all start holding sacrament meetings in McDonald's but that wouldn't change the name of the Church to McChurch of JC of LDS

[Vort]

"Does it bother you that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't exist? It's a trademark not a church."

This is a question posed to me. Does is matter how the church is organized as a legal identity? In fact the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Is a trademark of the Corporation of the First Presidency and not technically the name of a church. All buildings and property belong to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric. (as i understand it i could be wrong on that point.) Does this matter or is it an immaterial technicality.

Of course the Church exists. What an absurd statement. You might tell your friend that Jesus Christ has no legal standing in the US, and thus "does not exist" in the eyes of the law. What of it? I doubt the planet Mars is formally recognized by the US government, either.

[Guest Sachi001]

Charman of the Board of "Universal Enterprises" - Elohim

CEO of Operations and Personnel - Jesus Christ

COO of Customer Relations - Holy Ghost

[RipplecutBuddha]

"Does it bother you that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't exist? It's a trademark not a church."

This is a question posed to me. Does is matter how the church is organized as a legal identity? In fact the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Is a trademark of the Corporation of the First Presidency and not technically the name of a church. All buildings and property belong to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric. (as i understand it i could be wrong on that point.) Does this matter or is it an immaterial technicality.

The LDS Church does exist legally, as it was formally organized April 6 1830 with six members participating in the first meeting conducted by Joseph Smith Jr.

This process was required for the state of New York to recognize the Church as a legitimate religion. I cannot think offhand if the church has ever been challenged on its legal identity since that time, so yes, the church is a legal identity by trademark and copyright, but it is also a religion in practice, doctrines, rules, and behavior.

Someone either misuderstood the history of the early LDS church, or they were trolling for a flame war. Hopefully the first was the case.

[Just_A_Guy]

That's what we're taught as Mormons, and it's probably what Joseph Smith and his associates intended to do on April 6 1830; based on New York law as they understood it. But it's not at all clear that that's what they actually accomplished as a matter of law (shoulda consulted a lawyer!). Church property tended to be held in Smith's name (sometimes, but not always, as a trustee) throughout his lifetime.

I think most historians would say that the first true legal incorporation of the Church happened during the early Utah period. That corporation was dissolved as a legal entity under Edmunds-Tucker. I think the Church then actually got by for a couple of decades with no legal entity at all, until the Corporation of the President was set up as a corporation sole under Utah law in the 1920s. (Incidentally, I think Utah law no longer lets you set up a corporation sole--existing ones can remain in existence, but you can't form a new one.)

Edited July 9, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[Blackmarch]

"Does it bother you that the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't exist? It's a trademark not a church."

This is a question posed to me. Does is matter how the church is organized as a legal identity? In fact the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Is a trademark of the Corporation of the First Presidency and not technically the name of a church. All buildings and property belong to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishopric. (as i understand it i could be wrong on that point.) Does this matter or is it an immaterial technicality.

I'd ask the person, "Why does that matter?"- God will run his church and have it abide whatever laws he chooses for its gain and benefit.