So No One Forgets

[predator]

That's interesting. It's great that they didn't push you one way or the other, but encouraged you to make up your own mind.

Do you mind me asking how old you are?

dont mind the questions at all. Im 21.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

If you have problems with the way the LDS Church's prophets/apostles have presided over the Church and it's ordinances, I understand where you're coming from.

Ultimately, if Joseph Smith was a prophet, and his successors were chosen by God, their official teachings and acts as anointed leaders are in harmony with God's will, even if we don't fathom or agree with them. I'm not saying "just accept it," you obviously have to discover your own faith or lack thereof. I'm simply saying that if women not having the priesthood seems unfair to you or bothers you, that's fine, but you might also consider that God might run things a little differently than we would.

The tithing thing...active members of the LDS Church are expected to pay 10% of their increase to the Church. Your local church leaders are unpaid, the money doesn't go to them, it goes to Church projects like temple-building, Church welfare, missionary work, printing scriptures, etc...

Again, I'm sorry to hear that you've had such a bumpy ride. I believe firmly that God calls prophets in our day, guides them and instructs them in their role presiding over his Church, and are in tune with God's will unless He removes them. I don't always understand or agree with everything prophets say, but I respect their standing as men called of God and follow their counsel the best I can.

By the way, that quote from "Mormon Doctrine" was removed from later additions, McConkie admitted his opinion had been wrong, and apologized. "Mormon Doctrine" was not an official LDS publication. In other words, it was not endorsed by the Church as representing the official position of the LDS Church regarding doctrine and so forth. However, I have found it to be quite helpful and full of useful knowledge. But again, the quote you provided was merely one man's opinion based on his reading of scripture and his understanding. He was wrong. That's okay.

[Ray]

the quote you provided was merely one man's (Bruce R. McConkie's) opinion based on his reading of scripture and his understanding. He was wrong. That's okay.

Sorry to be a stickler for details, but it was not okay that he was wrong. But it was okay, and he was okay, when he repented by correcting his error... by changing what he said in his book.

We all make mistakes, from time to time, and to make it okay we repent. And it works that way because of what our Savior did. If he didn't our repentance would mean nothing.

[Snow]

cant find exact quote for that, but here is another racist quotes. btw church not allowing blacks priesthood until 1978. fact

Church leader Bruce R. McConkie, on the denial of equality for Africans:

“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)

Oh - so now you're singing a different tune.

Before you said that it was GOD that was changing his mind. Now you are saying that Bruce R. McConkie had an opinion that turned out to be wrong (that he later apologized for and said that he was mistaken).

Like I said, you don't appear to know much about LDS doctrine and history. No wonder your confused.

When i starting working they asked for tithing money, i refused. I was working to help my family (at the time we were in bad shape financially) and they got angry with me.

Got angry?

Now that sounds interesting. How was this anger manifest?

Did they yell at you?

Did they toliet paper your house?

Did they kill your pet goat?

[Dr T]

I hate it when my pet goat gets killed.

[boyando]

I never had a pet goat.

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

cant find exact quote for that, but here is another racist quotes. btw church not allowing blacks priesthood until 1978. fact

Church leader Bruce R. McConkie, on the denial of equality for Africans:

“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)

Oh - so now you're singing a different tune.

Before you said that it was GOD that was changing his mind. Now you are saying that Bruce R. McConkie had an opinion that turned out to be wrong (that he later apologized for and said that he was mistaken).

Like I said, you don't appear to know much about LDS doctrine and history. No wonder your confused.

When i starting working they asked for tithing money, i refused. I was working to help my family (at the time we were in bad shape financially) and they got angry with me.

Got angry?

Now that sounds interesting. How was this anger manifest?

Did they yell at you?

Did they toliet paper your house?

Did they kill your pet goat?

I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets? You still havent done this. you just beat around the bush. (apostleknight at least gave a good explanation, although i dont agree with it). Just continue making jokes and question my knowledge on the LDS doctrine and history. Whatever makes you feel better.

[Palerider]

perhaps you need to buy a book called A Soul So Rebellious and go and visit the home page titled....Black Mormon Homepage........good luck and I hope you are able to find answers to your so called concerns or questions.....I could share with you what it says....but I think it would be better for you to go and read it yourself........

[Snow]

I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets? You still havent done this. you just beat around the bush. (apostleknight at least gave a good explanation, although i dont agree with it). Just continue making jokes and question my knowledge on the LDS doctrine and history. Whatever makes you feel better.

Do you just make this stuff up out of thin air? (answer: yes)

Now you are claiming that Bruce R. McConkie received a revelation that that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood in this life. Do you imagine that at least some of us readers don't know that you aren't being honest when you claim such?

[Dr T]

I never had a pet goat.

Believe me; it just saves you lots of heartache

[LionHeart]

<div class='quotemain'>

The point is that it was illegal AND the Church (Joseph Smith) maintained that we should obey the laws of the land AND (Mormons believe) God commanded JS to practice polygamy.

That's a contradiction. I can't explain it.

It's these aspects of our Church's history that I find fascinating. I can't explain it either. Doesn't affect my testimony, but I've had great discussions about stuff like this w/my brothers and parents.

The Church takes the stand that they will observe the laws of the land, but it is important to know where this stand comes from.

D&C 98:

4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

And, of course it is also the twelvth article of faith. However, I am unsure as to which one came first.

Back in the early days, the anti-polygamy laws were considered unconstitutional by the church leaders. Therefore, they did not observe them.

As far as the persecutions go, I understand that a large portion of it was because of things written in the doctrine and covenants; things that interpreted to the effect that the saints would inherit the land of those people around them who would not join them.

[Snow]

Back in the early days, the anti-polygamy laws were considered unconstitutional by the church leaders. Therefore, they did not observe them.

Can you direct me to a reference from Church authorities from, say the 1840's, that supports your contention - that Joseph Smith and associates practiced polygamy becausem in part, they considered the laws of the land against it to be unconstitution?

Can you compare and contrast such a stance to the Church's stance regarding polygamy and the constituion at, say, 1900?

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets? You still havent done this. you just beat around the bush. (apostleknight at least gave a good explanation, although i dont agree with it). Just continue making jokes and question my knowledge on the LDS doctrine and history. Whatever makes you feel better.

Do you just make this stuff up out of thin air? (answer: yes)

Now you are claiming that Bruce R. McConkie received a revelation that that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood in this life. Do you imagine that at least some of us readers don't know that you aren't being honest when you claim such?

where did i state mcconkie recieved a revelation? I can see how you misinterpret it and perhaps its my fault (english isnt my first language) Here ill give you more quotes from bringham young a prophet of the church.

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”

(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)

now this was his stance back then. The prophet now does not feel the same way no more and the churches stance is different. The thing that bothers me is that the prophet of today can change any doctrine through new revelations. Who knows what he will change next.

If people on this board dont believe me thats fine. However if i put a quote i always put where i got it from. People here can look it up for themselves (in fact thats what i encourage people to do)

btw: you still havent answered anything. Just resorted to attack and question my honesty.

[BenRaines]

I believe that there is a difference between Doctrine and Practices. Doctrine is the foundation of our beliefs. Practice are the things we do.

Practices change. Doctrine does not.

Ben Raines

[Guest MrsS]

Since when has the Journal of Discourses become Canon? This is like taking what the Gospel Doctrine teacher says in class as if it were from Gods Mouth and thus it is scripture.

You read the Journal of Discourses AFTER you earnestly pray for the Holy Ghost to testify to you what is truth and what is speculation on the speakers part and also what is the speakers opinion. The same as what is said by the members of this forum. You PRAY, and with the GIFT of the Holy Ghost you are then able to discern the truths from the "IMO" of each member.

What we read in the Ensign/Liahona - that should be paid attention to more so than the Journal of Discourses. Most especially the conference issues. Again, they should be read after PRAYER asking for clarification, discernment to filter the wheat from the chaff.

God does not change - He gives us more as we are capable of handling more. When we as a people show that we can not abide by His laws, then He takes those laws from us.

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets? You still havent done this. you just beat around the bush. (apostleknight at least gave a good explanation, although i dont agree with it). Just continue making jokes and question my knowledge on the LDS doctrine and history. Whatever makes you feel better.

Do you just make this stuff up out of thin air? (answer: yes)

Now you are claiming that Bruce R. McConkie received a revelation that that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood in this life. Do you imagine that at least some of us readers don't know that you aren't being honest when you claim such?

where did i state mcconkie recieved a revelation? I can see how you misinterpret it and perhaps its my fault (english isnt my first language) Here ill give you more quotes from bringham young a prophet of the church.

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”

(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)

now this was his stance back then. The prophet now does not feel the same way no more and the churches stance is different. The thing that bothers me is that the prophet of today can change any doctrine through new revelations. Who knows what he will change next.

If people on this board dont believe me thats fine. However if i put a quote i always put where i got it from. People here can look it up for themselves (in fact thats what i encourage people to do)

btw: you still havent answered anything. Just resorted to attack and question my honesty.

speaking of which....you have not looked up what I said either......but thats ok....

[Snow]

where did i state mcconkie recieved a revelation?

First you said:

"Now to make things worst the mormon god changes his mind."

Then you clarified:

"I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets?"

Now you are pretending like you didn't say it.

I can see how you misinterpret it and perhaps its my fault (english isnt my first language).

English isn't your problem. Honesty is. You claimed that racist revelations were received but what you are posting are "racist" opinions. Grow some integrity.

Here ill give you more quotes from bringham young a prophet of the church.

No thanks. We already know you're a race baiter. There's no need to beat it into the ground just to prove it.

btw: you still havent answered anything. Just resorted to attack and question my honesty.

That's because you are dishonest. Make an honest post and I might respond.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Pardon my informality, but booyah!

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

where did i state mcconkie recieved a revelation?

First you said:

"Now to make things worst the mormon god changes his mind."

Then you clarified:

"I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets?"

Now you are pretending like you didn't say it.

I can see how you misinterpret it and perhaps its my fault (english isnt my first language).

English isn't your problem. Honesty is. You claimed that racist revelations were received but what you are posting are "racist" opinions. Grow some integrity.

as far as i know MCconkie wasnt a prophet. I used his quote as an example of a racist remark from a church leader. I wasnt trying to imply that he was a prophet and that he recieved a revelation from god. Reading my quote again it appears that way. It was not my intent. However it is still a racist "opinion" from a leader. im glad he apologized for it later.

Here ill give you more quotes from bringham young a prophet of the church.

No thanks. We already know you're a race baiter. There's no need to beat it into the ground just to prove it.

again you are just resorting to personal attacks. You still have not attacked my questions.

btw: you still havent answered anything. Just resorted to attack and question my honesty.

That's because you are dishonest. Make an honest post and I might respond.

just because you were one of the first members here doesnt make you any more special than me. You might respond? dont act like you are superior to me because you are not. I got judged enough at church growing up i dont need to take it from you as well.

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I said god changes his mind because of the new revelations given by the new prophets. I personally dont think God CAN change his mind. Bruce R mckonkie isnt the only person to talk like that. I can find more racist quotes.

Please explain to me why god gives different revelations to prophets? You still havent done this. you just beat around the bush. (apostleknight at least gave a good explanation, although i dont agree with it). Just continue making jokes and question my knowledge on the LDS doctrine and history. Whatever makes you feel better.

Do you just make this stuff up out of thin air? (answer: yes)

Now you are claiming that Bruce R. McConkie received a revelation that that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood in this life. Do you imagine that at least some of us readers don't know that you aren't being honest when you claim such?

where did i state mcconkie recieved a revelation? I can see how you misinterpret it and perhaps its my fault (english isnt my first language) Here ill give you more quotes from bringham young a prophet of the church.

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”

(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)

now this was his stance back then. The prophet now does not feel the same way no more and the churches stance is different. The thing that bothers me is that the prophet of today can change any doctrine through new revelations. Who knows what he will change next.

If people on this board dont believe me thats fine. However if i put a quote i always put where i got it from. People here can look it up for themselves (in fact thats what i encourage people to do)

btw: you still havent answered anything. Just resorted to attack and question my honesty.

speaking of which....you have not looked up what I said either......but thats ok....

i did look it up (website) but not enough to where i could make a response here. I have now. the articles were a very good read. I was happy to see some questions that ive been pondering answered in this article. I am checking out the FAIR website now and its very interesting.

http://blacklds.org/mormon/mauss.html#en1

here is a little quote from that article

"Q: But don't Mormons believe that their Church is led by prophets of God? How could prophets have permitted racist ideas and practices to become part of their religion?

A: Prophets are not perfect and don't claim to be; nor do they always act as prophets in what they say and do.15 People in all ages, including those who become prophets, grow up without questioning much that is assumed by everyone else in their respective cultures, unless some experience motivates them to seek revelation on a given matter."

[Snow]

as far as i know MCconkie wasnt a prophet.

Well he was. You probably aren't even LDS.

I used his quote as an example of a racist remark from a church leader.

No - you used it to explain how the Mormon God, or rather LDS revelations from God change and are not consistent. I posted your exact quotes in context.

I wasnt trying to imply that he was a prophet and that he recieved a revelation from god. Reading my quote again it appears that way. It was not my intent.

If you didn't do it deliberately, you didn't through a purposeful disregard for accuaracy - that the truth is secondary to you making a point. If you are going to go on the attack, better be prepared to back up your claims.

However it is still a racist "opinion" from a leader.

And your point is what? That being a leader makes you perfect?

again you are just resorting to personal attacks. You still have not attacked my questions.

If you are dishonest and inaccurate, why on earth do you whine when someone observes that you are dishonest and inaccurate.

Be honest, be accurate, ask a question, and I try and answer.

just because you were one of the first members here doesnt make you any more special than me. You might respond? dont act like you are superior to me because you are not.

No one, except maybe Diana Krall or Astrud Gilberto is special.I have a superior knowledge of LDS history compared to you. That's relevant because we are discussing LDS history.

I got judged enough at church growing up i dont need to take it from you as well.

Egads - no you are a victim too. Grow a spine.

[miztrniceguy]

No one, except maybe Diana Krall or Astrud Gilberto is special.I have a superior knowledge of LDS history compared to you. That's relevant because we are discussing LDS history.

took my wife to see diana krall last year.....awesome

[predator]

<div class='quotemain'>

as far as i know MCconkie wasnt a prophet.

Well he was. You probably aren't even LDS.

I used his quote as an example of a racist remark from a church leader.

No - you used it to explain how the Mormon God, or rather LDS revelations from God change and are not consistent. I posted your exact quotes in context.

I wasnt trying to imply that he was a prophet and that he recieved a revelation from god. Reading my quote again it appears that way. It was not my intent.

If you didn't do it deliberately, you didn't through a purposeful disregard for accuaracy - that the truth is secondary to you making a point. If you are going to go on the attack, better be prepared to back up your claims.

However it is still a racist "opinion" from a leader.

And your point is what? That being a leader makes you perfect?

again you are just resorting to personal attacks. You still have not attacked my questions.

If you are dishonest and inaccurate, why on earth do you whine when someone observes that you are dishonest and inaccurate.

Be honest, be accurate, ask a question, and I try and answer.

just because you were one of the first members here doesnt make you any more special than me. You might respond? dont act like you are superior to me because you are not.

No one, except maybe Diana Krall or Astrud Gilberto is special.I have a superior knowledge of LDS history compared to you. That's relevant because we are discussing LDS history.

I got judged enough at church growing up i dont need to take it from you as well.

Egads - no you are a victim too. Grow a spine.

either the prophets got different revelations or one or both of them made it up. I personally think god CANNOT change his mind.

Why am i even bothering.Im done trying to explain things to you because you will just respond with more attacks and act like a bully. you still have failed to address anything, keep resorting to personal attacks. No need to respond because i wont respond to you no more. From now on your on my ignore list. actually i think i will take my questions to the fair messageboard. Good job snow you win.

[Snow]

either the prophets got different revelations or one or both of them made it up. I personally think god CANNOT change his mind.

Why am i even bothering.Im done trying to explain things to you because you will just respond with more attacks and act like a bully. you still have failed to address anything, keep resorting to personal attacks. No need to respond because i wont respond to you no more. From now on your on my ignore list. actually i think i will take my questions to the fair messageboard. Good job snow you win.

Are you for real? No probably not... probably just a troll who'll say anything, true or not to annoy people.

YOU claimed that Mormon prophets (like B. Young and B.R. McConkie) received racist revelations. When challenged you produced the sum total of ZERO evidence that Brigham Young or B R McConkie received any such thing. All you posted were what appear to be some racist opinions. Opinions aren't revelations - duh!

Like I said twice before - if you have an honest point to make, stop playing the victim and make it.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Mr. Chairman, I second that motion.