Gods Word Conflicts? What Am I Missing?

[Guest servant4christ]

Hello everyone,

My name is Danny and I am a new found believer in the Mormon religion, and have resantly been reading heavaly through Gods word and have found some points in the Book of Mormon that contradict the D&C and the Pearl. As Mormons we believe in the polythiesm or multiple Gods but Alma 11:28-29 states "27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29 And he answered, No. 30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things? 31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me." Now because the Book of Mormon is the "Flawless word of God" I can't just sit back and say there are plural because it is false. There is only one God! Also Mosiah 15:2-5 states " 2 And because he adwelleth in bflesh he shall be called the cSon of God, and having subjected the flesh to the dwill of the eFather, being the Father and the Son— 3 The Father, abecause he was bconceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are aone God, yea, the very bEternal cFather of heaven and of earth. 5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, asuffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and bscourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people." So that means God and Jesus are one. I don't quite understand but God is incomprhendable for us and we need to just take it as fact. Please tell me what I saw wrong or tell me I'm write because I cannot see what I missed.

God Bless,

Servant for Christ

[Dr T]

Hi Servant4christ,

What you are writing is known as modelism or Sabelism.

Dr. T

[mdb]

Good find. Your question is legitimate and you'll continue to find contradictions because the only true word of God is the Holy Bible and despite what they tell you, the Holy Bible is the only infallible book in their "scriptures". Jesus is God and there is only one true God. Polytheism is not biblical.

[boyando]

Good find. Your question is legitimate and you'll continue to find contradictions because the only true word of God is the Holy Bible and despite what they tell you, the Holy Bible is the only infallible book in their "scriptures". Jesus is God and there is only one true God. Polytheism is not biblical.

MDB;

I want to say this in the nicest way; You will find more contradiction in the Old Testiment than any other collection of scripture. The New Testiment is close behind. That doesn't mean that it is not the true word of God.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost (he being Stephen), looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,. How is that different than what we believe?

I will give more exsamples, if you desire, and if we can keep it an open forum.

Your friend in Jesus Christ - Allmosthumble

[mdb]

MDB,

I want to say this in the nicest way; You will find more contradiction in the Old Testiment than any other collection of scripture. The New Testiment is close behind. That doesn't mean that it is not the true word of God.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost (he being Stephen), looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,. How is that different than what we believe?

I will give more exsamples, if you desire, and if we can keep it an open forum.

You cite a passage, but show me no contradiction. Where are these contradictions you speak of?

As for your beliefs, the problem isn't that you believe Jesus is standing on the right hand of God. I agree with you there.

[Guest servant4christ]

Good find. Your question is legitimate and you'll continue to find contradictions because the only true word of God is the Holy Bible and despite what they tell you, the Holy Bible is the only infallible book in their "scriptures". Jesus is God and there is only one true God. Polytheism is not biblical.

MDB,

Thank you that is what I wanted to hear, in my studies on the net that is all I read. But my friends strongly dissagree. Does this mean I'm not Mormon? And you? It's hard for me to believe anything that Mormonism fallows because it contradicts the Bible so much. And if the Bible is the true Unfallible word of God then Mormonism is Lie. ?

[Ray]

Hello servant4christ,

Welcome to LDStalk, and welcome to our (LDS) religion. I hope you’ll continue to learn ALL the truth you can learn from God. And in case I can be of service to you on this quest you are on for knowledge from God, I’ll share a few words with you I hope will help you to learn.

First, I think it might help you to realize that with the power of the Holy Ghost you can know the truth of ALL things that God knows. It helps me to keep that thought in mind rather than thinking I am dependent upon others for a knowledge of God through what He has revealed to others.

Second, I think it might help you to realize that most of the answers you are seeking right now have already been answered by God through ALL of His prophets of His church. It helps me to keep that thought in my mind before I think I have found a new idea, and knowing that then helps me to keep searching for knowledge that God has already revealed... which I and you and others can all know to be true and of God through the power of the Holy Ghost that He shares with those who want to know the truth.

And third, just in case you don’t know it right now, you can search for knowledge from God at our (LDS) official website, at http://www.lds.org, where you can search for all knowledge from prophets, leading to http://scriptures.lds.org, where you can search to the scriptures, and to http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/contents, where you can search for a subject by Topic, as well as many other things you can learn from our (LDS) official website for the Church.

And btw, there is more good stuff on that website than all the stuff you will find on this website, although you will occasionally hear some words of truth from some people here.

And to give you my thoughts on your question, there is and has been only Person who our Father appointed as the ”Mediator” between us and our Father since the fall of Adam and Eve… namely, Jesus Christ, aka Jehovah, the son of our Father… the one we commonly refer to as “God”, but as Jesus showed us the Son is the same as the Father.

I hope that helps. :)

p.s. mdb is NOT a LDS, as you can see from the sign he gave us, namely his call sign, or the sign which we can all use to show what we have chosen to call our religion.

[mdb]

MDB,

Thank you that is what I wanted to hear, in my studies on the net that is all I read. But my friends strongly dissagree. Does this mean I'm not Mormon? And you? It's hard for me to believe anything that Mormonism fallows because it contradicts the Bible so much. And if the Bible is the true Unfallible word of God then Mormonism is Lie. ?

servant4christ,

That is what you want to be. It's in your posting name.

Check your PM (personal messages).

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Maybe I'm getting skeptical in my "old age" on this board (and I'm still a young'n) but all thes new members with under 5 posts suddenly popping up claiming to be LDS and having these sincere doctrinal problems with "their religion" smack of deception to me.

S4C, if you think you've found a contradiction, why do you come to an LDS board and ask for confirmation that the LDS Church is false? Your amateur anti-Mormon concern is so old and over-used as to be, well, useless. I don't see what the heck your point was in starting this thread, other than to stir up trouble. Of course only the anti-Mormons and wolves in sheep's clothing on this board are going to agree with you. Why not go to some anti-Mormon board and eat your heart out?

[Ray]

That MAY be true. It MAY be a deception. But I think most people are really as they seem. And there are many among people who really don't know who they should learn from to learn what is true, and good, and will lead us all back to our Father.

Maybe the OP is young and still living with his parents?

He definitely needs to get his testimony from God.

I don't know him well enough to judge who he is now, but I hope we will become one with God. :)

[Guest servant4christ]

Maybe I'm getting skeptical in my "old age" on this board (and I'm still a young'n) but all thes new members with under 5 posts suddenly popping up claiming to be LDS and having these sincere doctrinal problems with "their religion" smack of deception to me.

S4C, if you think you've found a contradiction, why do you come to an LDS board and ask for confirmation that the LDS Church is false? Your amateur anti-Mormon concern is so old and over-used as to be, well, useless. I don't see what the heck your point was in starting this thread, other than to stir up trouble. Of course only the anti-Mormons and wolves in sheep's clothing on this board are going to agree with you. Why not go to some anti-Mormon board and eat your heart out?

Well I am truly sorry if I have offended you but being the body of christ I thought one questions would be answered or at least prayed about. I've keep the questions in for so long and am personally afraid "ashamed" the ask even my closest friends. Please don't cast judgement on me but help me or at least pray for my struggles.

[Ray]

I'll pray that you will ask God to show you the truth. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Okay Danny, let me address your concern specifically. If I understand correctly, you have a problem with the LDS view that there are three Gods in the Godhead: Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You have this problem because certain passages in the Book of Mormon describe the Father and Son as being "one God."

Okay, that's a valid concern on the surface. But remember, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in a vision in 1820, and he saw two personages, not one. Also, Jesus is the mediator between our Perfect Father and us fallen mortals. Since Jesus speaks on behalf of Heavenly Father and represents Him in his role as our mediator, he is sometimes referred to as the Father.

There are several ways in which Jesus can be called the Father.

1) He created the world, hence he is the Father of Creation much like George Washington is considered by some to be the Father of America. Read Mosiah 3:8 for more on this.

2) Those who are converted and born again through water and spirit become the children of Christ by adoption, hence is the Father of our Salvation. Please read Mosiah 5:7 for more on this.

3) Jesus is divinely invested with authority to speak for Heavenly Father, much like prophets speak for the Lord by talking in the first person, i.e. the ubiquitous "Thus sayeth the Lord: I have seen your abominations..." passages in scripture. Hence, Jesus is referred to as the Father because he represents the Father.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two separate beings of supernal power and glory. There is one Godhead or presiding council made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Together, they are one Godhead, or one "God" in a figurative sense. This is the meaning of the Book of Mormon passages you cited. At least, look up any commentary on those passages and you'll find what I'm explaining. Hope you resolve your concerns and get back to enjoying the scriptures.

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

MDB,

I want to say this in the nicest way; You will find more contradiction in the Old Testiment than any other collection of scripture. The New Testiment is close behind. That doesn't mean that it is not the true word of God.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost (he being Stephen), looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,. How is that different than what we believe?

I will give more exsamples, if you desire, and if we can keep it an open forum.

You cite a passage, but show me no contradiction. Where are these contradictions you speak of?

As for your beliefs, the problem isn't that you believe Jesus is standing on the right hand of God. I agree with you there.

mbd;

I'm sure in my last post that I was confusing. I'm not sure if I can be any less confusing in this post. My purpose was to show what we had in common, not what is different. Conflict and contradiction are easy to find and I hope that you will not dwell on needing proof that there are contradictions. In fact, I hope that you will see that any contradiction that we find in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C or Pearl of Great Price are more refinement of truth than actual contradiction.

Let's look at scripture that could easly be considered contradictory. The book of Saint John was one of the few scripture's that was written for the Church of Christ, as a whole. It starts, JOHN 1:1- In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2-The same was in the begining with God.

We know that the "Word" refers to Jesus so let's just put his name in were it uses "the Word". In the begining was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. The same (meaning Jesus) was in the begining with God.

So if Jesus was with God, how could he also be God? If Stephen saw two different being's, how could there be one God? Seems to me to be a contradicton, unless you understand the true nature of the God head.

I look foward to your rebuttle and I remain your humble friend - Allmosthumble

[Dr T]

Hi Allmosthumble,

I love how you post was humble! Well done. I'm interested in seeing how MDB responds.

Dr. T

[Palerider]

and if you read on through the New Testament it says....that God....through Jesus Christ created the earth............

[Dr T]

Hey Palerider,

Can you give some supporting verses that show that in the N.T.?

Thanks

[Maureen]

Let's look at scripture that could easly be considered contradictory. The book of Saint John was one of the few scripture's that was written for the Church of Christ, as a whole. It starts, JOHN 1:1- In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2-The same was in the begining with God.

We know that the "Word" refers to Jesus so let's just put his name in were it uses "the Word". In the begining was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. The same (meaning Jesus) was in the begining with God.

So if Jesus was with God, how could he also be God? If Stephen saw two different being's, how could there be one God? Seems to me to be a contradicton, unless you understand the true nature of the God head....

allmosthumble - The scripture answers your own question - and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Do you not think that when it refers to God, it may be referring to one of the other persons of the Godhead, as in the Father? We could then paraphrase John 1:1&2 by saying:

In the begining was Jesus (the Word), and Jesus (the Word) was with the Father (God), and Jesus (the Word) was God (the Son). Jesus (The same) was in the begining with God (the Father).

Knowing that all three persons of the Godhead are God collectively or individually makes it all make sense.

M.

[Dr T]

Hey Maureen,

As I often hear (when people explain LDS doctine to me) "pretty simple" or "it's not a hard concept to understand." Is that your take this?

[mdb]

mbd;

I'm sure in my last post that I was confusing. I'm not sure if I can be any less confusing in this post. My purpose was to show what we had in common, not what is different. Conflict and contradiction are easy to find and I hope that you will not dwell on needing proof that there are contradictions. In fact, I hope that you will see that any contradiction that we find in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C or Pearl of Great Price are more refinement of truth than actual contradiction.

Let's look at scripture that could easly be considered contradictory. The book of Saint John was one of the few scripture's that was written for the Church of Christ, as a whole. It starts, JOHN 1:1- In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2-The same was in the begining with God.

We know that the "Word" refers to Jesus so let's just put his name in were it uses "the Word". In the begining was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. The same (meaning Jesus) was in the begining with God.

So if Jesus was with God, how could he also be God? If Stephen saw two different being's, how could there be one God? Seems to me to be a contradicton, unless you understand the true nature of the God head.

I look foward to your rebuttle and I remain your humble friend - Allmosthumble

Let's look at the Scriptures as a whole. I believe that they do not contradict and if there seems to you or someone else to be a contradiction something is not being interpretted correctly. Why? Because if God contradicts Himself then He is a liar and we know that God does not lie nor can He because God is holy and perfect. God cannot sin. Somewhere there is a problem with your interpretation (I say that in the nicest way possible - please don't take offense).

First of all, the word of God tells us that there is only one true God. When the Scriptures say there is one true God, it is not "figurative", meaning that there is actually more than one God. As I wrote in another thread (deleted), God is all-knowing and if the Son or the Holy Ghost were "gods" separate from the Father, the Father would certainly know about it. If polytheism were true, why would God lie and say that there is only one true God? I suppose the other "gods" would have to be false.

Passages that tell us there is only one true God: (Gen 2:4; Deut 6:4; Ps 90:2; Isaiah 43:10; 45:5,21; Jer 10:10; Jn 17:3; James 2:19).

A look at the account of the ten commandments in Exodus should shine light on the LDS ideas of the Godhead and whether elohim is the name of the Father and yhwh the name for Jesus in the OT Scriptures. How does the following make sense using the LDS interpretation?

God (elohim) is the Lord (yhwh)

And God [elohim] spoke all these words, saying:

“I [yhwh] am the Lord [yhwh] your God [elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

(Ex 20:1,2)

“You shall have no other gods [elohim] before Me.

(Ex 20:3)

...For I, the Lord [yhwh] your God [elohim], am a jealous God [el],...

(Ex 20:5)

Let's look at Isaiah 48 to see the triune God and see if elohim is separate from yhwh.

In Isaiah 48, the Lord of hosts is speaking (that is yhwh - the eternal Son). That is understood from verse 2

For they call themselves after the holy city,

And lean on the God of Israel;

The Lord [yhwh] of hosts is His name:

(Is 48:2)

In verse 11 it says that yhwh will give His glory to no other.

For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;

For how should My name be profaned?

And I will not give My glory to another.

(Is 48:11)

Then He says in verse 12 that He is the First and the Last. If He is the First, He must have been before God the Father was. I don't believe that, but say to you that the Son is eternal as the Father is eternal. Both have always existed and the Son is uncreated.

“Listen to Me, O Jacob,

And Israel, My called:

I am He, I am the First,

I am also the Last.

(Is 48:12)

What does it say in Isaiah 44:6? Besides the Lord [yhwh] there is no God. How many persons of yhwh are present in Isaiah 44:6? Two. Are there two Jesus'? No. But in Exodus 20:1,2 God [elohim] says that He is the Lord [yhwh]. The LDS have their theology twisted because they do not understand the meanings of the words they use. Elohim is simply the Hebrew word for "god" and yhwh is one of the Hebrew names for God. These passages are terriblly confusing without that understanding.

“Thus says the Lord [yhwh], the King of Israel,

And his Redeemer, the Lord [yhwh] of hosts:

‘I am the First and I am the Last;

Besides Me there is no God [elohim].

(Is 44:6)

Back to Isaiah 48. What does it say in verse 16? Yhwh says that from the time it was, He was there. Then He says that the Lord and His Spirit sent Him. How many persons of yhwh are indicated here? Again, two. Did Jesus send Himself or did God [yhwh] send the Son (the Lord [yhwh] of hosts whos is speaking)?

“Come near to Me, hear this:

I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

From the time that it was, I was there.

And now the Lord [adonay] God [yhwh] and His Spirit

Have sent Me.”

(Is 48:16)

Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. It does not say he saw God the Father. No man can see the Father and you say that because he saw Jesus at the right hand of God, that He saw God the Son and the Father who it is not possible for him to have seen.

who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen

(1 Tim 6:16)

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

(Jn 1:18)

Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

(Jn 6:46)

Other Scriptures: Ex 33:17-20; 1 Jn 4:12

I would also like to ask you how it is possible that the Cherubim have two separate bodies and still be considered one being, not two beings symbolically acting as one. Ezekiel says that the body of a Cherub was separate from the wheel that contained it's spirit. Not that the nature of God is like a Cherub, but God is greater than you and I. There are three distinct persons of God, yet one God - not three separate "gods" in an office playing the roll of God. You claim Jesus was a created being exhalted to Godhood. I believe the Scriptures which say my Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God; eternal and uncreated.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

(1 Jn 5:20)

In John 5:20 it says that Jesus Christ is the true God. Does that make elohim a false god? With your interpretation of God it does. I do not believe that because the Scriptures don't teach it.

When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

(Ezek 1:19,20)

[mdb]

and if you read on through the New Testament it says....that God....through Jesus Christ created the earth............

Yes, hmmmm...

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

(Col 1:16)

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

(Heb 2:10)

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through [dia] whom are all things, and through whom we live.

(1 Cor 8:6)

Speaking of God the Father it says:

For of Him and through [dia] Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

(Rom 11:36)

There is no a basis for concluding that the Son was created because the Scriptures say all things were made through [dia] Him. As shown, it also says that all things were made through [dia] the Father. Besides, doesn't the LDS believe that yhwh is Jesus in the OT? What does it say about yhwh being the creator?

Have you not known?

Have you not heard?

The everlasting God [elohim], the Lord [yhwh],

The Creator of the ends of the earth,

Neither faints nor is weary.

His understanding is unsearchable.

(Is 40:28)

Thus says the Lord [yhwh], your Redeemer,

And He who formed you from the womb:

“I am the Lord [yhwh], who makes all things,

Who stretches out the heavens all alone,

Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

(Is 44:24)

[mdb]

There are several ways in which Jesus can be called the Father.

1) He created the world, hence he is the Father of Creation much like George Washington is considered by some to be the Father of America. Read Mosiah 3:8 for more on this.

2) Those who are converted and born again through water and spirit become the children of Christ by adoption, hence is the Father of our Salvation. Please read Mosiah 5:7 for more on this.

3) Jesus is divinely invested with authority to speak for Heavenly Father, much like prophets speak for the Lord by talking in the first person, i.e. the ubiquitous "Thus sayeth the Lord: I have seen your abominations..." passages in scripture. Hence, Jesus is referred to as the Father because he represents the Father.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two separate beings of supernal power and glory. There is one Godhead or presiding council made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Together, they are one Godhead, or one "God" in a figurative sense. This is the meaning of the Book of Mormon passages you cited. At least, look up any commentary on those passages and you'll find what I'm explaining. Hope you resolve your concerns and get back to enjoying the scriptures.

POINT 1)

Before I get going, you say that Jesus created the world. Did the Son create the world or did God the Father create the world?

I posted this once before, but it lasted half a day. Maybe it will stick this time. The reason it is applicable here is because it might help you understand the person of God. In Isaiah it says that yhwh created the earth and stretch out the heavens all by Himself and yet in other passages the word of God says that all things were created through Him (Jesus Christ). If all things were created through Him then how could yhwh say that He did it all by Himself (unless your understanding of God is not correct)?

According to Mormon doctrine:

God in general: One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world, who's name is Elohim, and who created the earth. He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130: 22-23)

Elohim: The name of God the Father who lives on the planet Kolob (Pearl of Great Price – Book of Abraham 3:1-17).

Yahweh: The name of Jesus in the Old Testament.

Jesus: Literal offspring of God the Father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth.

Note: the word elohim in the Hebrew language is a general word for god. It is the plural form of el. Elohim occurs 2606 times in the Old Testament Scriptures and in many instances is used in direct reference to yhwh.

Let’s take an example from the Scriptures and see how this works out.

In Hosea 12:2-5, God [elohim] is equated to the Angel. It is said that Jacob found Him in Bethel and that in Bethel “He spoke to us.” The Angel, who is said to be the elohim Jacob struggled with, is called the Lord God of hosts. If elohim is the Father and yhwh is Jesus, how does the phrase “the Lord God of hosts” make logical sense ( the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts [sobeh] )? The only way it makes any sense is to say that the Lord [yhwh] (who is Jesus) is God [elohim] and is the Lord of hosts. The passage then says that the Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.

The account of Jacob finding God in Bethel is found in Gen 31:11-16 and it is the Angel of God who spoke to Jacob in a dream. What did the Angel say? “I am the God [elohim] of Bethel. Then, concerning what the Angel of God spoke to Jacob, Rachel and Leah answered and said, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”

“The Lord [yhwh] also brings a charge against Judah,

And will punish Jacob according to his ways;

According to his deeds He will recompense him.

He took his brother by the heel in the womb,

And in his strength he struggled with God [elohim].

Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed;

He wept, and sought favor from Him.

He found Him in Bethel,

And there He spoke to us—

That is, the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts.

The Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name.

~Hosea 12:2-5

Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God [elohim] of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”

Then Rachel and Leah answered and said to him, “Is there still any portion or inheritance for us in our father’s house? Are we not considered strangers by him? For he has sold us, and also completely consumed our money. For all these riches which God [elohim] has taken from our father are really ours and our children’s; now then, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.”

~Gen 31:11-16

Who is this Angel of God? The Angel of God spoke to Jacob, but it also says that God is the One who spoke to Jacob and in the book of Hosea, it too says that the Lord God of hosts is the One who spoke. The Angel of God is the pre-incarnate Christ – who is God, the Lord God of hosts. Jacob physically wrestled with Him (“…struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel”) and was blessed by him. Later, Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” The God that Jacob wrestled with, talked with, and saw face to face was yhwh and it was also the God [elohim] of Israel. In Exodus 33:20 it says concerning God , “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Yhwh is the name of God and is given to both Jesus and the Father throughout the Scriptures. A study in the Scriptures will prove this. Jacob had seen face to face the Angel of God (the Son) – the person of God that man can see without dying. Isaiah also saw His glory and his life was spared (Isaiah 6:1-5 ref.: Jn 12:41).

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”

But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

So He said to him, “What is your name?”

He said, “Jacob.”

And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”

And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

~Gen 32:24-30

The truth about God? Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word for god (el). Yhwh is one of the names given to God. He is also called the Mighty God, Almighty God, Lord of hosts, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Redeemer, Savior, I AM WHO I AM, among others. Jesus is the blessed eternal God, Savior, Redeemer, Lord of Lords, Emmanuel. He is the Son of Man, the Son of God, my Lord and my God – the only true God, not one of countless gods, not created but eternal as the Scriptures say.

God said there are no other gods beside Him. He knows not one. If Jesus attained godhood, wouldn’t even his Father (elohim) know that he was “a” god? Is not the Father all knowing?

POINT 2)

Baptism and being born again

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Peter 3:21,22)

Here's our “public acknowledgement”... it's not baptism by water that saves, but a spiritual baptism (death to the flesh and being born of the Spirit), a spiritual rebirth.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 10:8-11)

"But those things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart..." (Matt 15:18)

If you believe in your heart on Jesus Christ, then you will not be ashamed and from your mouth public proclamation will be made. As followers of Christ, one will be baptized by water because Jesus commanded us that we should and if we love His commands, that's what we'll do. But to say one must be baptized by water in order to be saved is to add works to a salvation which comes only by the grace of God through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8)

The thief on the cross was not baptized by water and the Lord said, "today you will be with Me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Why did Jesus say it? Because the thief believed on Jesus Christ and was saved. God revealed that truth to him so it remains that God was gracious to save a thief, even gracious enough to save me. SaLvation is by grace, by faith, not by works or by a water baptism. Even John said that though he baptized by water, one was coming who would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11)

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4,5)

If you're eager you can look up all the references to BAPTISM in the Scriptures:

John’s baptism: Matt. 3:5–8, 11, 13–16 Mark 1:8–10; Luke 3:7, 8; John 10:40. Matt. 21:25 Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4. Mark 1:4, 5; Luke 3:12, 21; Luke 7:29, 30; John 1:25, 26, 28, 31, 33; John 3:23; Acts 1:5, 22; Acts 10:37; Acts 11:16 Acts 18:25. Acts 19:3, 4

Christian baptism: Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; John 3:5, 22; John 4:1, 2; Acts 1:5, 22; Acts 2:38, 41; Acts 8:12, 13 v. 16.; Acts 8:36–38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:46–48; Acts 16:14, 15, 33; Acts 18:8, 25; Acts 19:4, 5; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3, 4; 1 Cor. 1:13–17; 1 Cor. 10:1, 2; 1 Cor. 12:13; 1 Cor. 15:29; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 4:5; Eph. 5:26; Col. 2:12; Heb. 6:2; 1 Pet. 3:18, 21

Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Isa. 44:3; Joel 2:28, 29; Zech. 12:10; Matt. 3:11 [Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16.] Matt. 3:16 Luke 3:22; John 1:32, 33. Luke 24:49; John 3:5; Acts 1:5; Acts 2:1–4, 38, 41; Acts 8:15–17; Acts 10:38, 44, 45, 47; Acts 11:15, 16; Acts 19:2, 6; 1 Cor. 12:13; Tit. 3:5, 6; 1 Pet. 3:20, 21

POINT 3)

I guess the prophets could be called Father too then since they also spoke to the people saying, "Thus saith the Lord..." Representing someone does not make you the person you represent. There are many places in the OT where the Lord (yhwh) is said to be God (elohim). You need to understand that elohim is not a name given to the Father, it is the Hebrew plural word for "god". In POINT 1 and in another post on this thread I have shown some examples of where in the Scriptures this is so (eg. Ex 20:1-3). Please read them. Jesus is the Son, not the Father. Jesus is God and there is only one. God knows of no other gods besides Himself and He is all-knowing, not ignorant.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

First mdb, your inaccurate understanding of LDS theology is apparent. Heavenly Father doesn't live on Kolob, it's the star nearest to His dwelling place but you can read the PoGP again for yourself. Second, Elohim--who is Heavenly Father--didn't create the earth; Jesus did. I could go on, but there are errors sundry and tedious that I don't feel like correcting.

Your whole post is ignoring the main point I made earlier: LDS believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, called Jehovah, acting as mankind's mediator with God, the only Savior we have. I too have given you scriptures in the past that explain this "there is no other god beside me" = "there is no other Savior beside me" thing, but I'm not going to repeat myself.

And yes, I know what elohim means in Hebrew. I've studied Hebrew, have you? Can you write in both Square and Cursive Hebrew scripts? Or did you just regurgitate a snippet from a Bible commentary? Don't assume the average LDS member is an ignoramus with his eyes surgically attached to the Book of Mormon. We study and embrace lots of knowledge, thanks for asking.

Finally, I never said speaking for someone else makes you that person (nice twisting of my words though). I said representing someone allows you to speak as if you were that person, but apparently you're not interested in reading carefully for content so I'll forbear from writing any more.

[prisonchaplain]

Maybe I'm getting skeptical in my "old age" on this board (and I'm still a young'n) but all thes new members with under 5 posts suddenly popping up claiming to be LDS and having these sincere doctrinal problems with "their religion" smack of deception to me.

S4C, if you think you've found a contradiction, why do you come to an LDS board and ask for confirmation that the LDS Church is false? Your amateur anti-Mormon concern is so old and over-used as to be, well, useless. I don't see what the heck your point was in starting this thread, other than to stir up trouble. Of course only the anti-Mormons and wolves in sheep's clothing on this board are going to agree with you. Why not go to some anti-Mormon board and eat your heart out?

I've been gone for two weeks, but a mere couple minutes of reading s4c's posts and mdb's responses clued me in. Take it from this non-LDS Christian clergyperson, there's nothing more non-Christian then coming to the "household" of another faith, pretending to be of the fold, and then carrying out crude and disingenious 'missionary' work.

As our bretheren in the prisons like to say, "Keep it Real!"

[BenRaines]

Thanks for those kind words PC and welcome back.

Ben Raines