Violence: Worse than pornography?

[kayne]

sound advice everything isnt told and a lot of missing and you bring up good points. what i was always told about our Heavenly Mother was that God The Father intentionally left her out. the reason being was as much as we blasphemy His name, The Son's Name and even The Holy Ghost. The Father had no desire to let his Wife get blasted too so by leaving her our of it She isn't hit with the same level of cursing and swearing the Jesus and God are.

granted i dont recall where that comes from other than my parents and who knows where they heard it(they only own like 1000 spiritual church books and are 70 and have listened to a lot of talks from GA's)

how true that is i dont know? it makes sense if you ask me. It says quite often he is a jealous and angry God. and it isnt exactly unheard of for a husband to go into RAGE mode when his wife is insulted. I suspect not cussing the name of the Heavenly Mother spares us the rage of and anger of jealous and angry God who isnt above wiping us all out with a giant flood or fire or anything else.

but i too have always been curious what Her role in it all was and whether there is more than 1 Heavenly Mother or not(dont forget people like abraham had multiple wives is our Heavenly Father the same?)

[Guest fadedleaf]

sound advice everything isnt told and a lot of missing and you bring up good points. what i was always told about our Heavenly Mother was that God The Father intentionally left her out. the reason being was as much as we blasphemy His name, The Son's Name and even The Holy Ghost. The Father had no desire to let his Wife get blasted too so by leaving her our of it She isn't hit with the same level of cursing and swearing the Jesus and God are.

My spouse works every night; I don't come running to her aid when she has a bad customer. I have to agree to disagree with you sir (not taking a negative tone), but I believe the Goddess is a little bit tougher than most give her credit, so was: Eve, Sarah, Hagar, Rebecca, Rachel, Ruth, Mary of Nazareth, Joan of Arc, Nefertiti, and Cleopatra. I could go on all day.

I have also heard that God is protecting her, I'm not entirely throwing that theory out, but I think that the woman that created all life doesn't need protection from anyone. Rather, I think She's a little sad because most of the world has forgotten Her.

If God made Adam in His own image, then who's image was Eve made from? In my opinion, Eve was designed, and made, by the Goddess.

[kayne]

My spouse works every night; I don't come running to her aid when she has a bad customer. I have to agree to disagree with you sir (not taking a negative tone), but I believe the Goddess is a little bit tougher than most give her credit, so was: Eve, Sarah, Hagar, Rebecca, Rachel, Ruth, Mary of Nazareth, Joan of Arc, Nefertiti, and Cleopatra. I could go on all day.

I have also heard that God is protecting her, I'm not entirely throwing that theory out, but I think that the woman that created all life doesn't need protection from anyone. Rather, I think She's a little sad because most of the world has forgotten Her.

If God made Adam in His own image, then who's image was Eve made from? In my opinion, Eve was designed, and made, by the Goddess.

entirely possible and I am sure as a Goddess She is quite capable of handling herself in equal proportions to Heavenly Father's abilities. however for whatever reason The Father is the one that seems to get the spotlight and I suppose we wont know till we die why that is.

well a bad customer is different though than say me calling your wife *insert swear word* which is exactly how we use the name of Jesus and God in this crazy world. if Her name was revealed you can bet she would be right there on that list of swear word uses.

I do think you are right Eve is like all females modeled after the Heavenly Mother I am sure(after all it is where the whole two sexes originate). that said its pure speculation and everywhere it does say Jesus and The Father were the ones doing it not to say The Mother wasn't the inspiration or didn't play a role in our spiritual birth much like our earthly mothers bring us into the world.

though there is a hymn song She is mentioned in if it makes you feel better.

[JudoMinja]

This conversation about to whom we should pray and the existence of a Heavenly Mother is derailing the originial question of the thread, but I woud like to continue it as it is intriguing me. To help get this thread back on track, I am starting a new thread on the topic. Anyone who wants to continue that discussion can pipe in there. :)

[Vort]

I thank you for your kind words; however, I feel that my question was still not answered.

When I asked of my Mother Goddess was inferior to your “Father” you mocked me by saying,

You can pray to whomsoever or whatsoever you choose -- a tree, a lamp, a cloud, a particularly attractive idea

I did not mock you. I answered as clearly as I could that you are welcome to pray to whomever or whatever you want. "Your Mother Goddess" is inferior to the Father only in the sense that "your Mother Goddess" does not exist. "She" is a false god. The Father is a living being, our eternal Father. Since you list your religion as "LDS", I can only assume you know this most basic truth.

Have I ever called your “Father” a tree, a lamp, or a particularly attractive idea? No. And I still won’t condemn your deities.

Okay, that's nice of you.

I also asked,

I'm just wondering where you are arriving to your conclusion. Or from which source are you driving your doctrine. Is this tenet? Must I pray to the Father? Would my mother Goddess be inferior?

Because you replied,

Why would you pray with gratitude to the Father for the food you are to eat? To show gratitude, I suppose, and to acknowledge that God is the source of life, both physical and spiritual.

I only inquired to see if there was a part of the scriptures you could refer me to.

I don't understand. Have you ever read the scriptures? Because it's set out quite clearly throughout scripture. A very few examples:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

3 Nephi 18:19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my [Jesus'] name

3 Nephi 19:6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus.

However, I will state that my “particularly attractive idea” guided my people to this continent over 32,000 years ago.

I am interested in how you arrive at this idea. Do you have some divine revelation on the matter? Because scientific evidence does not connect up modern peoples with those Ice Age inhabitants of the Americas. That is pure conjecture.

by Judo-Christian, Catholic, Islam, or LDS standards, my religion pre-dates yours (assuming from your profile you are still LDS).

Again, I'm not sure what you mean to assert here. "My religion" has existed for all time. It existed before the world itself was created. If "your religion", whatever that means, is 32,000 years old, then it is vastly younger than mine.

Early Celtic and Pagan religions all worshiped female Goddesses (some modern variations of these religions still do). The Ancient Syro-Palestine people worshiped goddesses, as did the women in ancient Mesopotamia, Egypt, women of the ancient Hebrews, India, China, Japan, African Kingdoms, Rome.

And therefore...?

It would seem then if there are more people in agreement with a single entity female Goddess, though many name changes, than a single God.

Are you suggesting that the reality of divine beings is established by majority vote?

And I almost want to read in by implication from your statement that a Goddess can’t be responsible for the creation of the world, or can’t exist anywhere.

You may read my words however you wish, of course. But don't expect to understand them if you intentionally misread them.

I have to ask though, from which orifice did God create Adam?

Hard though it may seem to believe, I have never actually inquired of God through which orifice he created Adam. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say the same one I used in creating my own children. But that's not a doctrinal teaching, just a speculation.

It’s odd to me (perhaps perception) that even today scientists still find it difficult to create life, and yet women have been doing it all along, just as they have been over, and over, and over. And who gave women the ability to procreate? – Man God did.

Not sure who or what "Man God" is. Man gives woman the ability to procreate, as woman gives to man. God created men and women. So I am not understanding your point.

The purpose to ask forgiveness from the slain animal is along the same ideology as LDS repentance. Part of the repentance factor, in LDS dogma, is to ask forgiveness from the offended individual.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are suggesting that, to be forgiven for (let's say) rape, a man needs first to say to his rape victim, "I'm very sorry, but I'm going to rape you now. I beg you to forgive me for this act."

If you believe this, you have little understanding of LDS theology.

Killing and eating an animal is not a sinful act. There is no sin to be pardoned. You don't need to ask an animal's "forgiveness" -- as if an animal even had the ability to forgive! If killing an animal to eat its flesh is something for which you need to seek forgiveness, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T KILL THE ANIMAL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This is so blatantly obvious that it ought not even need to be said. For this reason, I keep thinking that I am not understanding you correctly. You surely cannot be asserting what it sounds to me like you are saying.

To ask to pardon one’s self for killing the animal is simply to invoke forgiveness from She who created the universe.

So your Mother Goddess is the animal you slaughtered? When you pray to the animal to forgive you for the "sin" of killing it and eating its flesh -- an act for which you feel no actual sorrow whatsoever and that you fully intend to repeat the next time you want to eat some meat -- then you are actually praying to the Mother Goddess?

Not sure why you list your religion as LDS. If your statements here are any indication, your beliefs are no more LDS than those of a Buddhist or Hindu. Less, probably.

[Guest fadedleaf]

Not sure why you list your religion as LDS. If your statements here are any indication' date=' your beliefs are no more LDS than those of a Buddhist or Hindu. Less, probably.[/quote']

I have to admit I understand now why the active member rate is below 50%. What is so strange about my ideas? Are they any more imaginative them someone praying under a grove of trees? The issue isn't you, though it seems you've taken my difference of opinion personally. If I've done something to offend you then I apologize, here and now, and hope you will forgive me. Is my understanding of the scriptures as in-depth as someone like you? Probably not. I hope someday I will be.

In regards to personal revelation I thought that was something the Church encourages. What the Church doesn't tell people is that if their personal revelation goes against teachings of the church then they tell you (rather, me) they aren't real. And no, I've never had a physical member of the Church tell me that my ideas don't belong. What I have had is various sisters of the church tell me how masculine written the Bible, and BoM are. Yes, I have read and studied the scriptures and I still do. Nothing that has been said is going to defer me from believing in the Church; however, I still believe that Biblical accounts are not true in many parts. I don't think God created life. I think that God assisted in making life, and that's ok. I understand what you're telling me and I accept it fully.

I felt that you attacked me by saying my beliefs by calling them lamp. From my point of view my family has gone through systematic "bleaching" from European movements for many hundreds of years. However, in the location of the United States I'm in there are several Native Americans that go to Church that still hold onto their "older" beliefs. I try to encourage them to hold onto both, and perhaps try to view them through the perspective of the Church's teachings.

From what I've grown-up with, when an animal is killed, or consumed, the offending member should ask for forgiveness from the Spirit they took it form. In many cases, such as mine, that Spirit is a communal female spirit. Many North American tribes were matriarcial. Over the course of years I've dropped the communal spirit part but I still hold on to our Heavenly Mother, who's presence I think has been wrongfully omitted.

Vort, I apologize if I offended you. Truth be known, I admire you for defending the Church, and I pray there are many more like you. I pray I will have the courage to defend the Church like you do.

Edited September 1, 2011 by fadedleaf

[Guest fadedleaf]

I did not mock you. I answered as clearly as I could that you are welcome to pray to whomever or whatever you want. "Your Mother Goddess" is inferior to the Father only in the sense that "your Mother Goddess" does not exist. "She" is a false god. The Father is a living being, our eternal Father. Since you list your religion as "LDS", I can only assume you know this most basic truth.

I had to comment on this.

Billions of Catholics pray to our "Queen of Heaven," as do I. I apologize, but I know in my heart she exists. If the actual number of sister members that believe in a female "Mother Goddess, Goddess, Queen of Heaven" were revealed it would be very high. I personally don't see the harm in praying to our Heavenly Mother. I respect your right to choose to not acknowledge Her.

I don't understand. Have you ever read the scriptures?

Yes. I'm also a priesthood holder.

Because it's set out quite clearly throughout scripture. A very few examples:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matthew 6:6 But thou' date=' when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

3 Nephi 18:19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my [Jesus''] name

3 Nephi 19:6 And the twelve did teach the multitude; and behold, they did cause that the multitude should kneel down upon the face of the earth, and should pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus.

Fair enough. Thank you.

Again' date=' I'm not sure what you mean to assert here. "My religion" has existed for all time. It existed before the world itself was created. [/quote']

Lets be honest here. The LDS doctrine was crated, in part, by Joseph Smith. Many ideas seem to be borrowed, and many idea are new. However, there is no evidence that the LDS religion as a whole has existed for all time. I believe in the Restoration; I'm not suggesting that creation of religion is a bad thing. Nonetheless, religion is crated, by man.

If "your religion"' date=' whatever that means, is 32,000 years old, then it is vastly younger than mine.[/quote']

That's fine too. I respect your opinion.

Are you suggesting that the reality of divine beings is established by majority vote?

Depends on how you look at the situation. I know the old axiom' date=' "just because we don't believe in air doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Not believing in a devine being also doesn't mean he / she the entity does not exist.

In some parts of the world Mormonism isn't held as a religion, thus our devine being doesn't exist to them. When I was Saudi Arabia I was told not to tell the local people I was Christian (or LDS for that matter) because the majority is Muslim. The offense for not believing in Allah is beheading, which said practice is lessing over time. To them our "God" doesn't exist; our practices do not exists; the BoM does not exists; and Joseph Smith is not a real prophet. So in a way, Yes, the majority vote does make the entity real.

On a side note while I was in the Persian Gulf I studied the Quran, and found it to be very spiritual. I admire the teachings of Islam, and found it to be more about personal progression than violence. (I'm only saying this because there are many that don't know).

You may read my words however you wish' date=' of course. But don't expect to understand them if you intentionally misread them.[/quote']

I did reread what you said several times and I kept walking away feeling like there was a hidden insult. Judging by your reaction perhaps I was wrong.

Hard though it may seem to believe' date=' I have never actually inquired of God through which orifice he created Adam. If I had to make a wild guess, I'd say the same one I used in creating my own children. But that's not a doctrinal teaching, just a speculation.[/quote']

I was attempting to use sarcasm, but I can see my word choice was poor. I don't hold to the belief that God made the world, or mankind, on His own. I think that Heavenly Father has a spouse.

No, I am not Hindu. I think they have like a hundred gods? - I'm not sure. Buddhism, for the most part, really doesn't care for the afterlife, and concerns its doctrine with the present moment. If I were to proposition a buddhist monk he would say I asked because I was suffering. But that is a completely different line of thought.

Not sure who or what "Man God" is. Man gives woman the ability to procreate' date=' as woman gives to man. God created men and women. So I am not understanding your point.[/quote']

I agree in part; however, I don't believe men give women the ability to create anything. As a man I can physically create nothing that lives. It is true that someday A.I's will walk the earth, human may eventually make insteller travel, yet all of this pales in the give that women already possess. I don't want to get too detailed in this, but men only assist women in the reproductive process. Aside from the transfer of DNA, we do little else in the creation of life. Being it's mostly men that destroy the Earth I can see the wisdom in giving the "gift of creation" to women.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are suggesting that' date=' to be forgiven for (let's say) rape, a man needs first to say to his rape victim, "I'm very sorry, but I'm going to rape you now. I beg you to forgive me for this act."

If you believe this, you have little understanding of LDS theology.[/quote']

WOW. What does RAPE have to do with any of this! That blows my mind away. Rape is probably the most disgusting act a human being can do. I'm sure your word are metaphorical, but I'm still amazed. Of course, rape is never condoned. I was talking spiritually about blessing animal flesh before consuming it. I have apologized for killing animals before slaughtering them. Maybe to some pardoning one's actions before consuming the flesh of another once living being seems farfetched, but I don't see how it hurts either.

Killing and eating an animal is not a sinful act. There is no sin to be pardoned. You don't need to ask an animal's "forgiveness" -- as if an animal even had the ability to forgive! If killing an animal to eat its flesh is something for which you need to seek forgiveness' date=' THEN YOU SHOULDN'T KILL THE ANIMAL IN THE FIRST PLACE.[/quote']

There are instances when killing animals is a sin. I know of a man that went around shooting (yes, shooting) dogs from the yards of his neighbors as he drove by. Fortunately he's sitting in jail right now, and he has to pay restitution. I know that doesn't quite fit the definition as consumption, but from his statement he shot his neighbors dogs because he didn't like them.

Animals perceive pain just as humans do (in regards to pain hurt, not emotional suffering). When I worked in a slaughter house the the acts going on there were beyond description. For cattle basically they are shot with the bolt gun before being prepared for slaughter. The stench there was unreal, flys were eating dead flesh, and blood sticks to the floor. It takes a lot of hard work to keep the plant up to USDA standards. Nonetheless, the American industrial machine must go on. People wanted their animal products, and I asked the Goddess for forgiveness for killing one of Her many creations every day.

I still consume some meat, but not on a daily basis. The scriptures teaches us to eat meat sparingly and I will abide by that.

So your Mother Goddess is the animal you slaughtered? When you pray to the animal to forgive you for the "sin" of killing it and eating its flesh -- an act for which you feel no actual sorrow whatsoever and that you fully intend to repeat the next time you want to eat some meat -- then you are actually praying to the Mother Goddess?

If you don't have a problem with the killing of animals that's fine. I have some issue in respects to the slaughtering of so many animals. I don't view cattle' date=' pigs, and chickens, as being on par with humans. However, I can't escape the fact that I shed blood of the creative force that brought them into being (what ever ability you want that to be). There are many, many people that say that it's God's doing that animals are alive - I'm okay with that. From my perspective the only thing I'm doing it adding to God's eternal partner and spouse. If someone asks me I will tell them what I personally believe. Agency gives us the right not accept. If you don't want God to be married that's ok too.

I have talked to many other people in the Church that assure me that God does have a spouse. I'm not going to mention their name, but I've had other elders tell me they also believe in God's spouse. This question came up in quorum. One person was kind enough to point out the many loopholes in Biblical scriptures. I know for myself that many of my questions will be answered later.

Speculation? Sure. I can speculate the moon is made of cheese. I hope it gets his by meatball meteorites.

Not sure why you list your religion as LDS. If your statements here are any indication' date=' your beliefs are no more LDS than those of a Buddhist or Hindu. Less, probably.[/quote']

Because I am LDS. I have been in the church all my life.

I answer you original post, if you don't like voilent movies then don't watch them. Strange though, millions of animals are butchered for the sake of keeping America fat and few have a problem with it. I am just as guilty though, I killed for money. Are animals like humans? No.

I disagree with the notion that pornography is better then violence. I think pornography is a disgusting act, and many men will have to answer for the actions we encourage women to do. I think pornography destroys the precious gift that Goddess gave Eve. I'm not angel. I've watched pornography, I wish I never had. I've personally repented many times. I hope and pray that someday humanity will evolve past pornography and war.

I still reiterate what I said before, and I'm sorry if I offended you. I will choose better words next time.

[kayne]

only going to reply to three things right now as i dont feel replying to anything else

Depends on how you look at the situation. I know the old axiom, "just because we don't believe in air doesn't mean it doesn't exist." Not believing in a devine being also doesn't mean he / she the entity does not exist.

In some parts of the world Mormonism isn't held as a religion, thus our devine being doesn't exist to them. When I was Saudi Arabia I was told not to tell the local people I was Christian (or LDS for that matter) because the majority is Muslim. The offense for not believing in Allah is beheading, which said practice is lessing over time. To them our "God" doesn't exist; our practices do not exists; the BoM does not exists; and Joseph Smith is not a real prophet. So in a way, Yes, the majority vote does make the entity real.

On a side note while I was in the Persian Gulf I studied the Quran, and found it to be very spiritual. I admire the teachings of Islam, and found it to be more about personal progression than violence. (I'm only saying this because there are many that don't know).

while i agree to a point about islam and that religion having a spirtual journey to it. the cold hard facts are the people in charge hate our guts and a very very violent people and in all reality this takes away from any spirtuality their religion might have when they essentially want to start world war 3 and see this as a good thing as the only way to usher in the end of days.

i have few islamic friends so i know some can be peaceful. but by and large the religion has made a point of being associated with terrorists which does do a sad unjustice to the peaceful islamics in the world.

Lets be honest here. The LDS doctrine was crated, in part, by Joseph Smith. Many ideas seem to be borrowed, and many idea are new. However, there is no evidence that the LDS religion as a whole has existed for all time. I believe in the Restoration; I'm not suggesting that creation of religion is a bad thing. Nonetheless, religion is crated, by man.

once again i must say you are wrong here. religion wasnt started by man God started it by first telling Adam and Eve about the plan of salvation thus making the LDS church the oldest religion. granted it wasnt always called the LDS church but that is the only one around today that holds and relevance to the old church when it was first established.

I had to comment on this.

Billions of Catholics pray to our "Queen of Heaven," as do I. I apologize, but I know in my heart she exists. If the actual number of sister members that believe in a female "Mother Goddess, Goddess, Queen of Heaven" were revealed it would be very high. I personally don't see the harm in praying to our Heavenly Mother. I respect your right to choose to not acknowledge Her.

your right she does exist. this however changes nothing to the fact we are commanded Pray to the Father in the Name of The Son. not pray to The Mother in the name of The Son. if you truely are LDs and truely do hold the priesthood your violating the 1st commandment have no other Gods before me as we are always instructed pray to The Father. why only Him? i dont know. but we are constantly instructed Pray to The Father. if you arent praying to Him then you are violating the 1st commandment of have no other Gods before me even if it his Wife that is still putting someone before The Father. again yes she exists and why she is rarely mentioned I am not sure and none of us know. I am just as curious as you are on the matter. however my sincere advise is Stop this foolish act now holding the priesthood and praying to someone other than The Father? I cant think of too many crimes that are worse than that(with murder,sexual sin and denying the Holy Ghost being the only 3 i can think of). in fact I would dare argue depending what the sexual sin in question is that you not praying exclusively to the Father is a far worse crime considering its the most basic and the 1st commandment for good reason.

not trying to anger you just imparting some friendly advice as i most certainly assure you if you arent do this you arent really practicing the LDs religion. now granted we arent perfect and there is some flexiablity on some things but there are some things that have no flexiablity this is one of those. I will tell what happened. Satan popped a very convincing thought into your head and you fell for it. it happens we are human he wins some fights. I know because I have had those very same temptations to instead Pray to The Heavenly Mother. granted on some level I would like to have that relationship with her but I know that is not for right now. If i want that relationship with her I need to focus on gaining eternal life and to do that it requires speaking Heavenly Father. This will make Her more proud than you trying to get around the established system.

[Guest fadedleaf]

Satan popped a very convincing thought into your head and you fell for it.

I wanted to thank you for being one of the few nice people I've talked to thus far. Satan didn't pop any idea into my head. I went to college. I learned about the world.

God is what ever you want it to be. I say this because there is no one on this planet that can prove he exists. I know I can make the same argument for my beliefs, and have, but I'm happy now and that's all that really matters.

I picked my wife up this morning (we're down to one car) and on the the way home it struck me. Maybe I don't believe in the church, and I haven't for a long, long, long time. I tried to go back, but like the wrong piece of the puzzle I just don't fit in that slot.

I called my bishop this morning, and I'm resuming my leaving of the LDS church. I told my wife, who was an investigator until recent, not to worry about joining. It isn't the church I hate, it's the self-righteous and their supposed esoteric knowledge.

Religion is man made. I always has been and always will be. It's a organization of customs, cultures, language, and common ideas sometimes generated around a single or multiple deities. There were many, many other religious ideas that sprung fourth before the first quill hit the papyrus in writing, "In the beginning."

I sometimes call what is perceived as faith as a bond between humans an their deity. Funny, I remember going to the temple and thinking how wonderful the plan of salvation was, then one day I woke up and realized it's all b-------. But that was my experience. Everyone has the right to choose.

Suddenly, even as I write these words, I pulled out my map of life and realized there were more roads. I finally broke out of the cage. I'm not implying the church to be confinement at all; I just released myself from my own mental imprisonment.

Anyway good luck to you. I wish you well.

[Guest gopecon]

fadedleaf - we absolutely do believe in a Mother in heaven. I don't think that Vort or any other member was questioning that fact in this thread. The question is how she is to be acknowledged. There is very little revealed about this subject, so there is a lot of speculation as a result. The modern acknowledgement that we have heavenly parents has not been accompanied by any revealed changes in how we are to pray and who we are to worship. To the contrary, biblical teachings about praying to the Father in the name of Jesus have been reiterated.

[martybess]

I've seen both Saving Private Ryan and Schindlers List. While there is much violence in both movies, it is true to life and historical. Violence for violence sake I don't understand. But when a movie is made on actual facts and actual historical events, it's hard to sugar coat those.

I didn't read all the post so this might of been brought up. Ever asked yourself why the Book of Mormon has violence in it for surely it does. To me it's to remind me, rather warn me just what violence can do to a nation and it's ppl. Some movies are meant to do the same. I've never seen the R version but Saving Private Ryan did move me greatly. First for it's reminder just what evil can do and be and second (like the BOM as well) to show the greatness and good one man can do. (The man Tom Hanks portrait). Some scenes were to much for though. I was truly disturbed and disgusted with the scene where we had captured German and how he was treated, though I'm sure such things happen it was over the top and was pornographic in that the spirit was grieved and I felt it.

Edited September 1, 2011 by martybess

[kayne]

I wanted to thank you for being one of the few nice people I've talked to thus far. Satan didn't pop any idea into my head. I went to college. I learned about the world.

God is what ever you want it to be. I say this because there is no one on this planet that can prove he exists. I know I can make the same argument for my beliefs, and have, but I'm happy now and that's all that really matters.

I picked my wife up this morning (we're down to one car) and on the the way home it struck me. Maybe I don't believe in the church, and I haven't for a long, long, long time. I tried to go back, but like the wrong piece of the puzzle I just don't fit in that slot.

I called my bishop this morning, and I'm resuming my leaving of the LDS church. I told my wife, who was an investigator until recent, not to worry about joining. It isn't the church I hate, it's the self-righteous and their supposed esoteric knowledge.

Religion is man made. I always has been and always will be. It's a organization of customs, cultures, language, and common ideas sometimes generated around a single or multiple deities. There were many, many other religious ideas that sprung fourth before the first quill hit the papyrus in writing, "In the beginning."

I sometimes call what is perceived as faith as a bond between humans an their deity. Funny, I remember going to the temple and thinking how wonderful the plan of salvation was, then one day I woke up and realized it's all b-------. But that was my experience. Everyone has the right to choose.

Suddenly, even as I write these words, I pulled out my map of life and realized there were more roads. I finally broke out of the cage. I'm not implying the church to be confinement at all; I just released myself from my own mental imprisonment.

Anyway good luck to you. I wish you well.

well im glad im one of the few nice folks youve been able to talk to. sorry your experience with mormonism hasnt always been great. your not alone sometimes i do feel that same way but perhaps you are merely like me a bit of an anti social loner. or maybe youve run into one to many molly mormon types or only seen the utah mormon which is vastly different from non utah mormon to be frank i dont enjoy utah mormons much. in fact if i wasnt so 100% sure This was the true church then likely me moving utah would of resulted in being an inactive member as i just havent been able to connect to the wards around here on any meaningful level.

though i do want to say this. using your logic that we cant prove God is real which is correct there will be no science lab that proves it. by the same token Satan would also fall into said category. however despite this it wouldnt change their existence to being any less real. so you would still in fact suffer the influence or lack there of of each being whether you choose to believe it is real or not. so yes whether you would choose to believe it not Satan did in fact provide influence and has your entire life as he has done to all of us. thoughts come from 3 places really. yourself(the least contributing of the three), Satan, and God. this gets mixed together and results in your actual thought process and the actual thought that comes out.

again as you say it cant be proved so this still happens whether you choose to accept it or not because despite what I may say or someone else may say you yourself need to believe. I can say I have seen Satan which I have but unless you believe it to be real you wont however it doesnt change the fact it is in fact real.

though i do understand yes you went to college you learned things. youve seen the world a bit perhaps. I get it. we all need to find ourselves for sure. the church wasnt for me for 7 years. wasnt for my brother for 7 or 8 years. wasnt for my sister for 20 years. it happens we need to be sure of ourselves.

i do hope you find whatever it is you are looking for. though if you are anything like me and others ive seen leave the church be forewarned the moral structure you have is about to come unglued at an alarming rate.

though i would say perhaps find a different ward? perhaps try mormonism outside of utah if thats where you are. youll be shocked there is usually even in the most molly mormon of settings at least one person that sees through overbearing self rightouess attitude. honestly if your going to leave i hope its cause you overall disbelieve in the entire thing and not just hate the people as that will likely cause more harm than good to yourself as youll beleive something want to be a part of it but wont.

i am curious if the members are really your only problem?

i might also say reflect back on what made you join in the first place? in all reality that same reason is still as valid now as it was then.

either way take time figure it all out. i suppose my mormon buddies are thinking i am nuts for saying take time figure it all out instead of RUN TO THE BISHOP NOW. but no you need to be sure of yourself whatever that might entail. if you can in general accept the word of wisdom, accept the law of chasity, accept the God head, and overall obey the commandments for the most part you can probably slug through it. though you may find that its ok to make exceptions you dont need to blindly follow the church leaders(think for yourself a bit). ya know its ok to buy gas on sunday if your on the road. an R rated movie wont end the world. and skipping church now and then wont be the worst thing ever. you can still explore other worlds and not do a complete shift.

as i still find it odd you want to leave yet you seem to mostly believe it all.

well whatever find yourself and ponder it all take a month figure out what you want in life draw a roadmap see where all the pieces fit.

[FunkyTown]

Faded? What you're feeling right now is not righteous indignation. It's wounded pride.

And when we feel wounded pride, the last thing we want is to hear someone tell us that it's wounded pride and not the other person being unreasonable, but it's important to note this.

I want to address a few things that shows exactly this:

God is what ever you want it to be.

This is a blatant falsehood. It is also one of the most popular blatant falsehoods in the world, and is easily disprovable:

If someone stood up on a podium and was running for office, and said something like, "I like to believe that Tokyo is a large fried banana. It makes me feel good to believe that, and makes me happy, because I like fried bananas and the idea that there is an incredibly large one makes me happy. You can say it's a large city in Japan. That's your belief. Mine is the large fried banana thing, and it makes me happy." then that person would be laughed out of the running. It's an absurdity. God is who He is regardless of whether or not you believe, or whether or not it makes you feel good to believe, or whether or not the world can prove to you that He isn't what you think He is.

I say this because there is no one on this planet that can prove he exists. I know I can make the same argument for my beliefs, and have, but I'm happy now and that's all that really matters.

There is no one on this planet who is currently proving that he exists. There is no one on this planet who is currently proving to me that Tokyo is not a large fried banana. If I said there was no one on this planet who could prove that Tokyo was not a large fried banana, then I would be disingenuous.

The happiness thing is also incorrect. The truth is the truth regardless of whether it makes you feel good to believe that, or if your parents believed that, or if you like the way it sounds when it rolls off your tongue. You should search for the truth. When you find it, you should hold on to it and not demand that the truth conform to what you believe. That's the most courageous way, and the way that leads you closest to the truth.

I picked my wife up this morning (we're down to one car) and on the the way home it struck me. Maybe I don't believe in the church, and I haven't for a long, long, long time. I tried to go back, but like the wrong piece of the puzzle I just don't fit in that slot.

I called my bishop this morning, and I'm resuming my leaving of the LDS church. I told my wife, who was an investigator until recent, not to worry about joining. It isn't the church I hate, it's the self-righteous and their supposed esoteric knowledge.

You feel someone was rude to you on the internet because they called you on your beliefs. I'm sorry you felt belittled, but you cannot blame someone for trying to teach you the truth when you were claiming things that run counter to that.

Religion is man made. I always has been and always will be.

Please prove this.

I sometimes call what is perceived as faith as a bond between humans an their deity. Funny, I remember going to the temple and thinking how wonderful the plan of salvation was, then one day I woke up and realized it's all b-------. But that was my experience. Everyone has the right to choose.

You have confused things. You have taken a great truth: "Everyone has the right to choose." and confused it with "Everyone has the right to choose their consequences."

This is ridiculous. Everyone can make choices: One man chooses to jump up in the air for joy, the other chooses to jump off a cliff. One man knows the ground is beneath him, the other feels good and likes to imagine that a sea of soft pillows awaits him at the bottom of the cliff. One exalts himself in celebration, the other plummets to his doom.

Yes, everyone has the right to choose. No, this doesn't mean everyone is correct in their choices. Because we love you, we are trying to steer you towards correctness.

Suddenly, even as I write these words, I pulled out my map of life and realized there were more roads. I finally broke out of the cage. I'm not implying the church to be confinement at all; I just released myself from my own mental imprisonment.

Anyway good luck to you. I wish you well.

Yes. There are more roads.

Do they lead where you want to go?

Edited September 2, 2011 by FunkyTown

[Guest fadedleaf]

Faded? What you're feeling right now is not righteous indignation. It's wounded pride.

And when we feel wounded pride, the last thing we want is to hear someone tell us that it's wounded pride and not the other person being unreasonable, but it's important to note this.

I've played MMO games for years, like WoW, and complained every day about how much I hated it. I also likened this train of thought towards the church; I kept playing along because that's what I was always doing, not because I was something I necessarily enjoyed anymore. Blizzard on the other hands makes new patches, updates, and expansion packs. The LDS church on the other hand blames the congregates for not wanting to go. Now I know the two models are different, but try to think of it as a business. If I sell a product is it the customers fault I don't like it? - Maybe. But I won't make much money unless I meet customer demands and expectations.

Sir, my "pride" is not wounded. Taking after a more Christ like model, I choose to make amends if something I said was offensive to another person, just like if someone were to offend me here they would probably do the same. I tend to think that people do try their best, and often it's human error in perception that causes the dilemma.

The problem with God to me is perception, and I choose to think that He / She exists differently. I assure you I have no desire to insult anyone.

There is no one on this planet who is currently proving that he exists. There is no one on this planet who is currently proving to me that Tokyo is not a large fried banana. If I said there was no one on this planet who could prove that Tokyo was not a large fried banana' date=' then I would be disingenuous.[/quote']

Ah, now that's the real issue that bothers me right there. I've been to Tokyo. I've also read some Shintoism and read manga. Nonetheless, in the course of my life thus far, there is no empirical evidence of God, or deity. There is no document that God has written. I know. Here it comes. But this is factual.

Inspired or uninspired, truth or a lie, real or fiction, no one can prove God. Thus religion is manmade. Man, not God, puts the paper to pin, or quill to papyrus, and writes down his words. Let me say that again. MAN WRITES THE WORD OF GOD. However, writing the word of God doesn't make it true. I bluntly disagree with many verses of the OT. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but that is my choice.

"Wait a minute," says someone sitting in the crowd, "I thought God was omnipotent. Why does he need someone to write his works?"

"Well... uhhhh...," I stammer looking for words, "because we're to have faith. This world is a trial."

"So an all powerful being can not write one word? NOT ONE??"

"Well... our prophets, like Moses, write them down," I reply hoping he'll sit down and go away.

"Ok. So the model of God's information is this: God talks to the Prophet, The Prophet (or scribe) writes down the material; the material is then translated and often reexamined (this has happened many, many times in the BoM, OT, and NT); the word is then retranslated to multiple languages, often loosing meaning along the way; and then we finally get a finished product several thousand years later. Mind you, along the way there are no checks and balances, there is no quality control, men that mutilate their genitals are the people writing the verses (castration, eunuchs. Righteous or not), and when the culture changes someone just invents new material and puts it in?"

"Wow. How about Dallas? They had a really bad season last year," I say changing the subject, and if the person disagrees with me I give some banal statement about faith again. Rinse and repeat.

The problem with God is He won't take two minutes to come down to remind his people he's here. Don't give me some NT verse, and I don't want your testimony. God will not make any effort to prove his own existence. There is more evidence for Bigfoot than there is for a . So now we have, empty space = someone used their imagination to write down words = I'm supposed to believe.

I'm willing to make an excuse for God. His tiny planet has about 6.5 billion inhabitants on it; he must be a very busy man. So he send a miracle worker in his stead. I want to see: water turned into wine, said man to walk on water, calm the tempest, heal the sick and the blind, and raise the dead. If anyone can do that I promise I will follow their teachings. But this person will not come. I know I can't make supernatural phenomena, so I will ask someone else to do it for me.

The happiness thing is also incorrect. The truth is the truth regardless of whether it makes you feel good to believe that' date=' or if your parents believed that, or if you like the way it sounds when it rolls off your tongue. You should search for the truth. When you find it, you should hold on to it and not demand that the truth conform to what you believe. That's the most courageous way, and the way that leads you closest to the truth.[/quote']

"Vanity is my favorite sin," Al Pacino, Devil's Advocate.

I hate the way so many members use the worth "truth". It implies they have knowledge of a subject and you don't. I know many truths. I know that fighting a 1,500 pound bull bare handed is a bad idea.

You feel someone was rude to you on the internet because they called you on your beliefs. I'm sorry you felt belittled' date=' but you cannot blame someone for trying to teach you the truth when you were claiming things that run counter to that.[/quote']

If you talking about Vort I have no problem with him. I think he's brilliant and will continue to follow his works.

Please prove this.

I'm just going to use my WordWeb Pro. "religion: 1. A strong believe in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

= belief' date=' faith, religious belief.

~belief, supernatural virtue, theological virtue.

2. An institution to express belief in a divine power

=faith, organized religion

~establishment, institution."

There are some words that stick out to me, "believe, supernatural, and institution."

You have confused things. You have taken a great truth: "Everyone has the right to choose." and confused it with "Everyone has the right to choose their consequences."

This is ridiculous. Everyone can make choices: One man chooses to jump up in the air for joy, the other chooses to jump off a cliff. One man knows the ground is beneath him, the other feels good and likes to imagine that a sea of soft pillows awaits him at the bottom of the cliff. One exalts himself in celebration, the other plummets to his doom.

Yes, everyone has the right to choose. No, this doesn't mean everyone is correct in their choices. Because we love you, we are trying to steer you towards correctness.

I have to disagree with you sir. I was trying to illustrate my personal struggle between choosing what I disagreed with over what I felt was more tangible or real. Since I can not prove the existence of faith, other than words, I simply said people have the right to choose. I am not trying to be tautologic or semantic.

Yes. There are more roads.

Agreed.

Do they lead where you want to go?

Absolutely.

Thank you for your reply. I hope I didn't upset you. I would say more, but I don't want to offend anyone. I view this as a learning opportunity, and I will be more selective with whom I share my beliefs with.

[EricM]

Ah, now that's the real issue that bothers me right there. I've been to Tokyo. I've also read some Shintoism and read manga. Nonetheless, in the course of my life thus far, there is no empirical evidence of God, or deity. There is no document that God has written. I know. Here it comes. But this is factual.

Inspired or uninspired, truth or a lie, real or fiction, no one can prove God. Thus religion is manmade. Man, not God, puts the paper to pin, or quill to papyrus, and writes down his words. Let me say that again. MAN WRITES THE WORD OF GOD. However, writing the word of God doesn't make it true. I bluntly disagree with many verses of the OT. I'm not trying to offend anyone, but that is my choice.

"Wait a minute," says someone sitting in the crowd, "I thought God was omnipotent. Why does he need someone to write his works?"

"Well... uhhhh...," I stammer looking for words, "because we're to have faith. This world is a trial."

"So an all powerful being can not write one word? NOT ONE??"

"Well... our prophets, like Moses, write them down," I reply hoping he'll sit down and go away.

"Ok. So the model of God's information is this: God talks to the Prophet, The Prophet (or scribe) writes down the material; the material is then translated and often reexamined (this has happened many, many times in the BoM, OT, and NT); the word is then retranslated to multiple languages, often loosing meaning along the way; and then we finally get a finished product several thousand years later. Mind you, along the way there are no checks and balances, there is no quality control, men that mutilate their genitals are the people writing the verses (castration, eunuchs. Righteous or not), and when the culture changes someone just invents new material and puts it in?"

Okay, I felt the need to interject a bit here. All of this (prophets, scripture, interpretation of scripture) needs to be understood in a spiritual perspective, or not at all. Taking into account Moroni 10:5, by the power of the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. This includes a beginning testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon, or if Joseph Smith was a prophet. This continues on into the commandments, strengthening the testimony of the person by witnessing to them the reality of the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and then can be applied on a universal level under the conditions of baptism and confirmation (not to mention perseverance). It's all tied together, and if we lose this perspective and forget the affirmative experiences we've had, we develop a sort of "spiritual amnesia"...and thus the cycle of apostasy begins.

Ideally, the reason we believe the things we do is because we've received this witness at a moment in our lives. It's enlightened us, and we see that as we continue to put our confidence in our Heavenly Father and put Him first our lives, things go far better than they would have had we gotten exactly what we wanted (or even, at times, what we thought was best).

The problem with God is He won't take two minutes to come down to remind his people he's here. Don't give me some NT verse, and I don't want your testimony. God will not make any effort to prove his own existence. There is more evidence for Bigfoot than there is for a . So now we have, empty space = someone used their imagination to write down words = I'm supposed to believe.

Speaking of testimony...all of these things comes with an eye of faith. It's so much more than what's written in the scriptures. As faith grows what we read in the scriptures does more than bring the words alive in our own lives, but leads us to be more receptive to our own, personal inspiration (whether related to what we're reading or not). This is one instance where our understanding is truly opened up, and we see the world in a different light. God is so much more than a name dropped in Holy writ. He is the very essence of everything we are, everything we see, and everything we do. In a way, the reality of God can't be expressed in words. The Holy Ghost is the only way to understand, because it comes directly from God.

Now I know you specifically stated that you don't want my testimony, but my testimony is my reality. It's as real to me as nothing else is. And I do know that what I've stated here is true as it has come from my own personal experiences, something that no human mind could possibly conjure up, save that he were inspired by the very source of said experiences.

God is absolutely real. He loves us and is ever present. And never at any time has it been He who has forsaken us. Au contraire. The choice has always been in our hands. Do we choose to acknowledge Him, or do we take these "other paths?"

Edited September 4, 2011 by EricM

[Martain]

Well...

We know that Murder, or the shedding of innocent blood, is the worst sin we can commit (aside from denying the Holy Ghost which is a sin the majority of us will never be capable of committing).

We know that second to Murder is Adultery and other sexual sins.

To me, Pornography is right on up there with Adultery in severity and spiritual damage. Is violence likewise associated with Murder? I hope not but I can easily see why you feel the way you do.

Yet if I had to be subjected to one over the other, I'd take the violence any day.