Quick Video

[marshac]

We saw this video today in my global health class-

I thought about my own little girl as I saw it- it made me sad. I suppose that in an of itself isn't a current event, although the scenario played out in the video is an ongoing event. Given certain cultural and religious positions in regards to women around the world, i'm not sure what can be done... Thoughts?

edit- my bad- wrong video- corrected

Edited September 7, 2011 by marshac

[PrinceofLight2000]

The whole time I was thinking "I see where this is going...now what do we do?" Would have been nice to include that in this video.

[NeuroTypical]

Given certain cultural and religious positions in regards to women around the world, i'm not sure what can be done... Thoughts?

Put a little extra on your tithing slip for missionary work.

Spreading the gospel is a good way to fix this. Consider - 50 million girls, 50 million solutions. "Talking to their doctor", and education - right? Each one that becomes LDS - with our emphasis on education - with the values we instill about chastity and marriage and all - that does it, right?

I have a buddy - a former boss actually. He and his wife just decided one day to sell everything they had and devote their life to God's work (the evangelical Christian variety). He's been in Thailand and Malaysia and other places. His organization participated in an annual event where they basically hire hundreds or thousands of prostitutes for the night - and spend that night trying to do what that movie is urging - teaching basic healthcare, condom use, and good ol' biblical Christianity. Every girl they convince to accept Christ, or leave the profession and go back to school - they count as a win. I think that movie does too, and I think I do too.

[Dravin]

The whole time I was thinking "I see where this is going...now what do we do?" Would have been nice to include that in this video.

Indeed, it felt kinda like:

There are starving people! I have a solution: Feed them!

Though to be fair it's a teaser for the website, the details/plan are probably presented there.

[marshac]

I bought a sheep :)

Berhane Hewan: Reducing Child Marriage in Ethiopia - GlobalGiving

[Vort]

Their plan is cloyingly simplistic, their stats bogus, their references non-existent. If the exact same web site were made targeting boys instead of girls, it would be dismissed as sexist claptrap.

That's not to say they are wrong. They may well be right, or at least have a good idea. But the presentation is somewhere between laughable and outright stupid.

Interestingly, in the Church we find that the adult men are key to long-term solutions. If we can get the father interested, the family follows suit. Of course, adult men are not as easily molded as little girls, and little girls are certainly a more sympathetic target for most people's pity and well-wishing. But something about what they say, or perhaps the way they say it, just rubs me the wrong way.

[marshac]

Their plan is cloyingly simplistic, their stats bogus, their references non-existent. If the exact same web site were made targeting boys instead of girls, it would be dismissed as sexist claptrap.

That's not to say they are wrong. They may well be right, or at least have a good idea. But the presentation is somewhere between laughable and outright stupid.

Interestingly, in the Church we find that the adult men are key to long-term solutions. If we can get the father interested, the family follows suit. Of course, adult men are not as easily molded as little girls, and little girls are certainly a more sympathetic target for most people's pity and well-wishing. But something about what they say, or perhaps the way they say it, just rubs me the wrong way.

I'm going to have to disagree with you- lots of research has shown that poverty begets poverty (in both first and third-world nations), and the cycle of poverty is often best broken by education- often it's the girls that are most acutely deprived from receiving an education in third-world countries. You're correct in that the solution does involve changing the attitudes of men since nearly all of the societies where these underage 'marriages' take place are patriarchal. Some of the solutions attempting to break the cycle essentially give the father what he would have received from marrying his daughter off in exchange for allowing her to continue her education and to remain 'unmarried'.

As for the stats... i'm not sure why you think they're bogus- they're not talking about girls in the US or first-world nations, but rather for girls in many third-world countries- Wikipedia has an entry on the practice of child marriage and is fully cited-

Child marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However it rubs you, if you agree this is a problem that should be addressed, then ANY method that raises awareness is going to be better than silence.

[Vort]

I'm going to have to disagree with you- lots of research has shown that poverty begets poverty (in both first and third-world nations), and the cycle of poverty is often best broken by education- often it's the girls that are most acutely deprived from receiving an education in third-world countries.

In what way do you think that disagrees with me?

As for the stats... i'm not sure why you think they're bogus- they're not talking about girls in the US or first-world nations, but rather for girls in many third-world countries- Wikipedia has an entry on the practice of child marriage and is fully cited-

A man spends 35% of his income on his family. A woman spends 90% of her income on her family.

Uh-huh.

However it rubs you, if you agree this is a problem that should be addressed, then ANY method that raises awareness is going to be better than silence.

Not so. The method of sacrificing ten virgins per day to raise awareness is not better than silence.

I do not trust those who wrote the referenced web site. I sense that they have a deeper agenda. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

[marshac]

In what way do you think that disagrees with me?

A man spends 35% of his income on his family. A woman spends 90% of her income on her family.

Uh-huh.

Not so. The method of sacrificing ten virgins per day to raise awareness is not better than silence.

I do not trust those who wrote the referenced web site. I sense that they have a deeper agenda. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

I disagree with you that the stats are bunk- most come from the UN, although if you believe that the UN is a tool to implement a NWO or something, of course you're going to distrust them. Since I know several people who volunteer for doctors w/o borders who have seen this stuff going on first-hand, I don't have to rely on UN published stats, but rather first-hand accounts that correlate with the data.

As for % of income- men statistically make more money and have access to a wider range of jobs than women do, therefore the percentage of that income required to cover the 'basics' comprises a smaller percentage of that income. I'm not sure why this warrants 'uh huh' skepticism. Again- we're not talking about first-world countries where the gender inequality isn't as acute.

As for the last point, sure, you caught me being less than exquisitely precise in my verbiage- the underlying assumption that you chose not to go along with is that any program designed to raise public awareness in first-world nations is not going to involve virgin sacrifices, mutilations, or other such morally reprehensible practices as none of that is going to 'sell' the idea to the masses.

[HoosierGuy]

She's supposed to stay in school when teachers are being let go and social services are being cut, all by the so called people who call themselves the Moral party.

[Vort]

I disagree with you that the stats are bunk- most come from the UN, although if you believe that the UN is a tool to implement a NWO or something, of course you're going to distrust them.

If their stats are from the UN, why don't they cite them?

Since I know several people who volunteer for doctors w/o borders who have seen this stuff going on first-hand, I don't have to rely on UN published stats, but rather first-hand accounts that correlate with the data.

First-hand accounts are not going to establish that giving money to women will magically solve the problems.

As for % of income- men statistically make more money and have access to a wider range of jobs than women do, therefore the percentage of that income required to cover the 'basics' comprises a smaller percentage of that income. I'm not sure why this warrants 'uh huh' skepticism.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're correct, that means the statistic is used dishonestly. The clear implication of the statistic is that if you benefit a man and a woman equally, the woman spends 90% of that benefit on the family while the man spends only 35%. Assuming your explanation above is correct, this is a lie.

As for the last point, sure, you caught me being less than exquisitely precise in my verbiage- the underlying assumption that you chose not to go along with is that any program designed to raise public awareness in first-world nations is not going to involve virgin sacrifices, mutilations, or other such morally reprehensible practices as none of that is going to 'sell' the idea to the masses.

The point is not that you were being imprecise. The point is that they are making exceptional claims but providing no exceptional proof -- indeed, they are providing no proof at all, simply making assertions that we are expected to accept at face value. It sets off all sorts of mental alarms.

Are we truly to believe that the solution to third-world problems is as simple as giving money to women? Are we seriously to believe that only hatred of women or preexisting cultural mores have prevented this marvelous renaissance from taking place already? Throughout history, surely at least ONE civilization would have discovered that women are far more responsible and trustworthy than men, and therefore would have lifted itself out of poverty and become a world leader. Why do you suppose that has not happened?

[marshac]

Are we truly to believe that the solution to third-world problems is as simple as giving money to women? Are we seriously to believe that only hatred of women or preexisting cultural mores have prevented this marvelous renaissance from taking place already? Throughout history, surely at least ONE civilization would have discovered that women are far more responsible and trustworthy than men, and therefore would have lifted itself out of poverty and become a world leader. Why do you suppose that has not happened?

Nobody is advocating simply giving money to women- not only is that not a real solution, but it's not even remotely sustainable.

Here's an example of one of the solutions being tried-

Berhane Hewan: Reducing Child Marriage in Ethiopia - GlobalGiving

Simply put, in exchange for allowing the girl to continue to go to school the family receives a sheep (similar to what they would have received for marrying her off).

As for your question/statement, i'll cite Spartan women as an example of historically empowered and respected group of women, but also would point out that you're not exactly debating fairly by constructing strawmen and claiming that now this is suddenly about hatred against women, or paying them off, when in fact nobody has made any such claim.

[NeuroTypical]

My wife has worked with more than one girl who had been sold as babies and ended up being prostitutes here in America. Anecdotes have their limitations when trying to figure out the truth, but dang. It's hard to be facing deportation when you don't even remember which country your parents lived in when they sold you. And your marketable skills basically amount to turning tricks and taking a beating without getting injured.

If there was ever an issue that ought to take people with different opinions and make them want to work together for a solution, it's this one.

[Vort]

As for your question/statement, i'll cite Spartan women as an example of historically empowered and respected group of women,

Ancient Sparta is as close to a true living hell on earth as any society I have ever studied. If this is the model of empowered women, our only possible conclusion is that women should never, ever, EVER be empowered. You might want to use a different example.

but also would point out that you're not exactly debating fairly by constructing strawmen and claiming that now this is suddenly about hatred against women, or paying them off, when in fact nobody has made any such claim.

Did you go to the website and read any of the literature they provide, or just watch the little movie? Because if you did the former, you must know that the whole lynchpin of their argument is that women are now and historically have been mistreated, abused, and kept ignorant. And the solution they propose is to give the women (as young women) money and education.

I'm all for educating people, women and men alike. But something is very wrong with girleffect.org. I sense they are pushing an agenda that goes well beyond the well-being of people. Their central statistic -- that a woman reinvests 90% of her income into her family while a man reinvests only 30-40% into his family -- is unsupported with any real data and is so absurd on its face that I have no real motivation to believe it. Maybe it's true, but if it is, it would not be hard to provide some evidence for this astounding figure. The fact that they do not leads me to believe it's bogus, and their usage of a bogus statistic leads me to believe that they are being much less than honest and open about what they are trying to accomplish.

[marshac]

Did you go to the website and read any of the literature they provide, or just watch the little movie? Because if you did the former, you must know that the whole lynchpin of their argument is that women are now and historically have been mistreated, abused, and kept ignorant. And the solution they propose is to give the women (as young women) money and education.

I'm all for educating people, women and men alike. But something is very wrong with girleffect.org. I sense they are pushing an agenda that goes well beyond the well-being of people. Their central statistic -- that a woman reinvests 90% of her income into her family while a man reinvests only 30-40% into his family -- is unsupported with any real data and is so absurd on its face that I have no real motivation to believe it. Maybe it's true, but if it is, it would not be hard to provide some evidence for this astounding figure. The fact that they do not leads me to believe it's bogus, and their usage of a bogus statistic leads me to believe that they are being much less than honest and open about what they are trying to accomplish.

I hadn't visited their website until just the other day- the video I linked to was used as an aid in a two-hour global health presentation that focused on healthcare delivery issues around the world- wars and civil strife were obviously prominently featured, but so too was the lack of access to healthcare by women and the special issues they faced; increased dietary requirements during/after pregnancy, poor birthing conditions (ie: using feces/mud to stop bleeding), lack of access to higher level care in the event of complications, etc. An additional problem mentioned was the issue with child-brides and and the resulting pregnancy at a very early age which can be deadly without appropriate care (d/t the birth canal being too small, etc).

Since you mentioned it, I did try and dig up some of the referenced facts listed on the girleffect website, particularly that 90% number, but when trying to do so I kept ending up in a loop- everyone who cites that stat ends up citing a Yale Daily News article quoting someone who is themselves paraphrasing another study which is never cited (and I could not locate). I too raise a skeptical eyebrow at this and willingly concede that they're using some bad stats to bolster their argument.... but really.... does it matter? Should 12 year old girls be getting married so that their father can get a few more goats? For me, I simply think about my own daughter and other girls like her, and what it would be like to be 'married' to some old dude... besides the obvious power imbalance (in EVERY sense of the word) in that 'relationship', the girl is essentially robbed of her childhood, innocence, and the ability to do 'whatever she wants' to do with her life. I don't need fabricated stats to tell me this arrangement is wrong, and I wish they didn't feel that they needed them either since the moral argument alone is strong enough on its own.

As for Sparta- I wouldn't want to live there either, but the women there did have their say and were respected entities in society.