Multiple wives?

[garryw]

Don't you think there were people who were martyrs over circumcision?

That would be one terribly dull knife.

[garryw]

What does that have to do with it being a practice in the next life, I don't see the link

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

What are the "many things" referred to? Churches? Men? Cities? Revelations? Those are all possible answers. But section 132 is about marriage. So in the context of marriage (and the preceding verse) the many things can only be children and/or wives. Also Joseph was about to die, so it would be silly to make him a ruler over things he would have no use for in the next life.

So the implication is that Joseph had many wives given to him because he was faithful over a few things and therefore worthy to be a ruler over many things. Clearly however worthy he is, Heavenly Father is more worthy than him.

Again, just opinion.

[Snow]

It seems slightly amusing that people keep trying to distance themselves from polygamy. Consider this. If a man is sealed to more than one woman in the temple the surmise is that he will have multiple wives in the hereafter.

If it is allowed in the Celestial Kingdom then it must be acceptable practice.

If man can become a god as our Heavenly Father it then it seems logical that God might very well have multiple wives. Might of course being an important word. We dont know but we should realize we dont know EITHER way.

People (who distance themselves)? Like who? The Church.

Polygamy is an embarrassment to the Church. The Church itself actively takes steps to distance itself from it. For example, take a tour of the Beehive House. Brigham Young is portrayed as the good husband and father of a one wife nuclear family. Ask about polygamy and the Lion House next door and uncomfortable silence followed by uninformative fumbling ensue. Remember the SLC Olympics? The Church had commercials on TV with Steve Young happily declaring - and hey, we don't practice polygamy anymore.

Besides which, you logic is unhelpful. People - at least some- distance themselves from polygamy because they question that it ever was ordained from on high, not because they can't follow your reasoning.

[annewandering]

I'm not sure if you are talking about me or in general, "people keep trying to distance themselves from polygamy." I would say I am about as 'distanced' from that as I am from animal sacrifice. There are no family members that I have that have practiced polygamy, it is not a part of my world right now in any form or fashion other than people at church bringing it up (and now this discussion). Most members of the church that I am around here in San Diego do not have polygamy in their recent ancestry. From what I can see, for most LDS it is already a distant topic about as far away as animal sacrifice. So, if anything I hear the opposite, that people, when they bring it up, are trying to approximate themselves to the topic. I find that interesting (not amusing).

No we do not practice polygamy in this life now. It has never been revealed to be a wrong practice just a practice we arent to do at this time. If you do not believe we distance ourselves, how we discuss it, from polygamy then keep an eye on the topic, here and other places, for awhile.

We really arent distanced from animal sacrifice all that far. The sacrament is very similar in purpose. Both are done in remembrance of the Saviors sacrifices are they not? One future and one past.

I dont think we need to discuss polygamy particularly. It does keep coming up though.

I kinda thought most forums were about opinions. Yes some opinions are backed by scripture but even those opinions are not doctrine. The scripture is but not the opinion derived from it.

Now my opinion on whether God has more than one wife is hmm maybe. He might. He might not. I see no reason He can't be.

[Suzie]

People (who distance themselves)? Like who? The Church.

Polygamy is an embarrassment to the Church. The Church itself actively takes steps to distance itself from it. For example, take a tour of the Beehive House. Brigham Young is portrayed as the good husband and father of a one wife nuclear family. Ask about polygamy and the Lion House next door and uncomfortable silence followed by uninformative fumbling ensue. Remember the SLC Olympics? The Church had commercials on TV with Steve Young happily declaring - and hey, we don't practice polygamy anymore.

Besides which, you logic is unhelpful. People - at least some- distance themselves from polygamy because they question that it ever was ordained from on high, not because they can't follow your reasoning.

[Snow]

No we do not practice polygamy in this life now. It has never been revealed to be a wrong practice...

Except for in the Book of Mormon, that is.

We really arent distanced from animal sacrifice all that far.

Speak for yourself. I think killing animals for God is nuts. I always recommend against it.

[bytebear]

People (who distance themselves)? Like who? The Church.

Polygamy is an embarrassment to the Church. The Church itself actively takes steps to distance itself from it. For example, take a tour of the Beehive House. Brigham Young is portrayed as the good husband and father of a one wife nuclear family. Ask about polygamy and the Lion House next door and uncomfortable silence followed by uninformative fumbling ensue. Remember the SLC Olympics? The Church had commercials on TV with Steve Young happily declaring - and hey, we don't practice polygamy anymore.

Besides which, you logic is unhelpful. People - at least some- distance themselves from polygamy because they question that it ever was ordained from on high, not because they can't follow your reasoning.

I don't know what tour you went on, but on the one I was on, they didn't shy from Brigham Young having many wives and a ton of children. They pointed out a room in the house which was a storehouse of clothes, shoes and other items that were passed down from kid to kid. As each kid outgrew their clothes, they just found the next size in the storehouse.

I think pretty much anyone who visits SLC knows that Brigham Young was a polygamist, and they go on these very tours to see how he handled all those wives and kids.

As to embarrassment, the church is mortified at how modern polygamists are living the "principal" with abuse, shunning, lost boys, child brides, re-arranging families and all the rest. This is almost like Catholic priest sex scandals, except these people aren't even members of the church! Of course they are distancing themselves from contemporary polygamy.

An analogy of animal sacrifice is spot on. Ask any Jew about it. Yes, it was once practiced. Yes it was once important and necessary. But, no, it isn't any part of the church today, and there is no expectation that it will ever be again.

Edited October 20, 2011 by bytebear

[bytebear]

Except for in the Book of Mormon, that is.

Um, you missed a bit of context there, but then, you already knew that.

[annewandering]

If we do more than say we do not practice it at this time we have a problem. Why should we be embarrassed to do as God tells us to do? We do believe in prophets dont we? Last I saw we do. I know I do.

[Snow]

I don't know what tour you went on, but on the one I was on, they didn't shy from Brigham Young having many wives and a ton of children. They pointed out a room in the house which was a storehouse of clothes, shoes and other items that were passed down from kid to kid. As each kid outgrew their clothes, they just found the next size in the storehouse.

I think pretty much anyone who visits SLC knows that Brigham Young was a polygamist, and they go on these very tours to see how he handled all those wives and kids.

I had heard about the way BY was represent (as a monogamist - like he was in the Teachings of the Presidents RS and Priesthood manual) on this message board several years ago and so the next time I was in SLC I took the tour. As they showed the house, they talked about BY's wife (singular) and his children (few), where they played, what they were like, how they entertained, etc. NO, read ZERO mention was made of more kids and more wives until finally I asked and then a stilted and clumsy answer was given.

As to embarrassment, the church is mortified at how modern polygamists are living the "principal" with abuse, shunning, lost boys, child brides, re-arranging families and all the rest. This is almost like Catholic priest sex scandals, except these people aren't even members of the church! Of course they are distancing themselves from contemporary polygamy.

In this case I wouldn't go so far as to say you get what you deserve but when you officially sanction and promote 1. illegal behavior, and 2. behavior that the rest of society finds morally reprehensible, what else should you expect. Sure, you can clean up your own act but you can't erase your past and you can't control the beast once you've unleashed it.

I come from a polygamist family - a good Mormon polygamist family doing their Mormon duty and so have heard and seen first hand how sad and damaging polygamous lifestyles, even within the Church boundaries can be.

An analogy of animal sacrifice is spot on. Ask any Jew about it. Yes, it was once practiced. Yes it was once important and necessary. But, no, it isn't any part of the church today, and there is no expectation that it will ever be again.

Orthodox Judaism has daily prayers for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including sacrifice. The Orthodox Yom Kippur service as a long recollection of the Temple service, mourns it's loss and longs for its restoration.

[Snow]

Um, you missed a bit of context there, but then, you already knew that.

Fill in the context, from the Book of Mormon, that you think I am missing/

[Snow]

If we do more than say we do not practice it at this time we have a problem. Why should we be embarrassed to do as God tells us to do?

If only it were that simple. Obviously it is not.

God himself hasn't said anything to us about it. We are doing what someone, not God, says God said to them.

We do believe in prophets dont we? Last I saw we do. I know I do.

Prophets plural? How many prophets have received an officially approved revelation that God wants men to marry multiple women?

[annewandering]

It is that simple. Do we believe in our prophets? Sure not everything they say is doctrine but polygamy very clearly was at that time. It very clearly isnt to be practiced now. If we believe what our prophets told us.

[Snow]

It is that simple. Do we believe in our prophets? Sure not everything they say is doctrine but polygamy very clearly was at that time. It very clearly isnt to be practiced now. If we believe what our prophets told us.

Yes, I can see that for people like you, the thinking has been done.

I suppose that if you leader told you to that if you should approach your neighbor and offer peace terms (surrender to you) and if they refuse, you are to murder the men, kidnap the children, steal their belongings and rape the women... then you'd do it. Right?

That's not a hypothetical. That's what a prophet actually said in Numbers 20.

"When you draw near a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labour for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its male to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemy, which the Lord God has given to you..."

[Snow]

I wonder how many people actually have a testimony that marrying multiple women is ordained of God... not how many people are convinced of it, but rather how many people actually lacked wisdom and asked God and then received knowledge from God that it was.

[annewandering]

Yes. My thinking on this subject is done. By me by the way. If I figured it out once why should I go over it again and again?

I would have a hard time raping anyone, being a woman, but I imagine God knows that. If God told me to do hard things I would hope I would be like Nephi. He did not want to kill his uncle. In the end he did because it was necessary and he believed that is what God wanted him to do.

A great many times we do not know what God has in mind. We do not know why He does what He does. The question is do we trust Him? Do we believe what He tells us?

Sometimes the trials are very hard. Remember when Abraham was told to sacrifice his son? No way did he want to do that. Yet he was prepared to do it because God asked him to do it. After God saw his faithfulness He stopped the sacrifice. It was no longer necessary.

I hope God never asks me to live in polygamy. I hope He never asks me to kill anyone. Frankly I doubt He will. If He does I pray I am faithful.

[Obolus]

It kind of seems to be part of the 'science fiction' of the church. Polygamy isn't the only thing the church still generally embraces as a true principle yet is embarrassed about.

Concepts such as Kolob and Kaukaubeam for instance. In truth, many of the people that respect our humanitarian efforts and that are friendly with us politically still consider us to be founded on a heritage that is a mixture of Helter Skelter and Star Trek the Next Generation.

Short of the sects started by L Ron Hubbard, who is more Sci-Fi than the Mormon Church? Polygamy is strangely a part of that shadow aspect of our psyche.

I'm curious, though, what people's opinions are on why the whole concept of the 'House of Israel' and Abraham's covenant would involve polygamy so heavily. I mean, this family that we are in, or that we have been adopted into, seems saturated by this concept. Isn't this the covenant that seals us to God?

Joseph Smith didn't have to ask the question. I think that's what bothers me about the concept the most.

[Suzie]

It is that simple. Do we believe in our prophets? Sure not everything they say is doctrine but polygamy very clearly was at that time.

If you ever study Church history a little more in depth, you will realize that this topic (along with the topic of Blacks and the Priesthood ban) aren't so black or white (no pun intended) or "clearly" as you may think.

[annewandering]

We over think things too much. If we believe than we believe.

Oh I like to read about church history. What I see about polygamy is that Joseph Smith did not want to do it. He knew his wife would not be happy either. It was probably one of the worst trials in his life. He wasnt exactly raised in a household that was one to jump onto the idea of more than one wife. They are religious people and the religious at the time certainly were not fans of polygamy.

If we go into history of the church knowing its true then that is what we are going to see. If we dont then we are going to wonder why unpopular things were done. Pretty much how the Community of Christ Church feels.

It really is simple.

[Snow]

Yes. My thinking on this subject is done. By me by the way. If I figured it out once why should I go over it again and again?

I would have a hard time raping anyone, being a woman, but I imagine God knows that. If God told me to do hard things I would hope I would be like Nephi. He did not want to kill his uncle. In the end he did because it was necessary and he believed that is what God wanted him to do.

A great many times we do not know what God has in mind. We do not know why He does what He does. The question is do we trust Him? Do we believe what He tells us?

Sometimes the trials are very hard. Remember when Abraham was told to sacrifice his son? No way did he want to do that. Yet he was prepared to do it because God asked him to do it.

God gave people the ability to reason. Why are they so adverse to using it.

If you believe in a God that is good and just and you believe that God said not to kill, why do you believe that God would tell you to be evil? It's like an abusively manipulative parent.

If you believe that God is good and God is just, how could you think that God would command you murder, steal and rape?

After God saw his faithfulness He stopped the sacrifice. It was no longer necessary.

So you don't believe in a God that is omniscient? That's novel.

hope He never asks me to kill anyone. Frankly I doubt He will. If He does I pray I am faithful.

That's a scary thought.

Here's how I think. If I ever start to think that God is ordering me to kill someone, rather than hoping that I will be faithful, I hope instead that someone will get me into treatment until I am no longer insane and can be trusted again to live a moral life.

[Suzie]

We over think things too much. If we believe than we believe.

What do you mean by "we over think things too much"? Do you mean we take the time to actually research, study, analyze and then make an informed decision? Just because we move through Faith doesn't mean we shouldn't study, and analyze carefully the things that we are being taught. It's actually pretty scary that ANYONE would follow something in the name of Faith without thinking carefully, researching and receiving the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.

Oh I like to read about church history. What I see about polygamy is that Joseph Smith did not want to do it. He knew his wife would not be happy either. It was probably one of the worst trials in his life. He wasnt exactly raised in a household that was one to jump onto the idea of more than one wife. They are religious people and the religious at the time certainly were not fans of polygamy.

Let me just say there is wayyyy more than that but I cannot explain in two lines what may take years of research and study.

If we go into history of the church knowing its true then that is what we are going to see. If we dont then we are going to wonder why unpopular things were done. Pretty much how the Community of Christ Church feels.

It really is simple.

It is not that simple. If we go into Church history, we will find a whole bunch of unhappy alleged wives, some refusing to marry the Prophet, husbands who find out their wives has been sealed to him, marriages without Emma's consent or knowledge and allegations that some of these marriages were consummated, etc, etc, etc, etc all in the name of God. Now, I am not here to judge Joseph Smith but let's not say this is really that simple. It's far from simple and anyone who studied Church history will tell you that and I didn't even start mentioning the most important points.

[Snow]

We over think things too much. If we believe than we believe.

It really is simple.

If I were feeling unkind I'd say that sound like something Mohamed Atta would have said.

Instead, I say that I do believe, but what you really mean is that I should believe the same way you do... and no, it is not really that simple. I don't believe what I believe because someone told me what to believe...

My belief is the result of study, reason, prayer and experience.

[bytebear]

Fill in the context, from the Book of Mormon, that you think I am missing/

Jacob 2:30

[annewandering]

You have to believe what you believe. Your life is yours and mine is mine. I am not asking you to write a thesis on the subject any more than I expect you dont want me to do that.

I do not recall saying no one should study anything out. Nevertheless let me explain it this way.

Everyone here on this earth has certain things to learn. Gospel principles for instance. Now if gospel principles are things that we need to learn, then does it make sense that it should be hard to understand? Should we have to have a college degree in Gospel Studies?

Why do you suppose we are baptized at 8 years of age? I can not believe for a minute that children that age can understand the intricate details of gospel principles, with the history and all the teachings about it. They can understand the basics of the gospel. Hope, Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. (I just know I forgot some :) )

If we know those things then dont the rest fall in place? Or do we need to reintroduce each principle every time we read new history information? I believe that every person, who can be held accountable, not just the intellectually gifted, should be able to understand the gospel. Otherwise that is just not fair.

It really is simple.

I cant speak for Mohamed Atta. I have no idea why he did what he did.

Edited October 20, 2011 by annewandering

[Guest Magen_Avot]

So, then you would agree that a plural marriage wouldn't step a person closer to exaltation as the single sealing is all that is needed as far as covenants go. Plural marriage is not on the road to exaltation, just was a commandment for some for that time. Right?

Hmmm,... interesting.

Your choice of words asserts my agreement with you . While I'm not sure if this is your purpose and whether or not I agree, my inner self seems to always resist situations that seem this way to me which is why I mention it. If I'm wrong I apologize.

At any rate, I would easily respond to, "Do you feel entering into plural marriage is required to enter into the Celestial Kingdom or exaltation?" or something like that. My answer would be 'I don't beleive that to be the case'.

I've never heard of plural wives being a requirement for exaltation. . I’ve never read or heard of that requirement before nor read it in any book of scripture. I hope that’s not what you read into my previous answers.

More direct to what I think you were asking: Is it (polygamy) on the road TO exaltation,… not for me but for those who legitimately entered into polygamy, yes, they already have (assuming they are actually now ON the road to exaltation). Will it be a part of exalted life? I believe it will be, yes. But that will be in a perfect world and dare I say,… heavenly? (sorry, I love puns). In my current mortal frame of mind though I really hope I don’t have to. Because... I. Don’t. Like. It!!!

These are my opinions of course. Did I answer your query?

Edited October 20, 2011 by Magen_Avot