Finding common ground

[Guest gopecon]

"The Father, Son and Holy Spirit talk to each other throughout the Bible. They are distinct persons. We do not deny this. So, though God is one, when Jesus speaks to the Father, God is not speaking to himself." - PrisonChaplain in the Regarding Stephen thread, post #22.

Based on this statement of PrisonChaplain's, and others in many threads here I want to see if I can clarify my understanding a bit. Are the primary differences between LDS and Trinitarian understanding of deity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that we believe that the Father has a body while you believe He is Spirit, and that Jesus was not created as a spirit child of the Father before this world, but was co-eternal with the Father? If I'm right here, couldn't many of our disputes over this issue be resolved with the understanding that "one God" to a Trinitarian is essentially the same statement as there is one "Godhead" to a Mormon (as the Trinitarian's God encompasses 3 persons)? Could much of this debate be the result of misunderstood semantics, rather than big differences?

I do understand that our (LDS) view of the nature of God and eternal progression is different, as we believe that we are not just His creations, but His children who were created spiritually before this Earth, and who can progress to become like Him to some degree. Taking that issue aside, I don't think we are as far apart as many think with regard to the makeup of the Godhead/Trinity.

[Spartan117]

The fundamental difference between the LDS belief in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity is the belief in 3 Gods as opposed to 1 God. Nothing else beyond this point really matters, whether there's personage(s) of spirit or flesh and bone or something in between, the Trinity begins and ends with one God, and one God alone. There is no common ground past that point.

[Guest gopecon]

I guess the question is, what is a God? I fully understand there are differences in our beliefs, but 3 persons as one God (that can talk with each other) sounds an awful lot like 3 members of the Godhead.

[Carl62]

It just seems that for every one verse in the Bible that may point to the idea that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit could be as one God, I then find about ten other verses that distinctly shows that they are threee separate entities. For me this belief has nothing to do with my belief in the LDS church, but what is in the scriptures. I go by what is said in the Bible and not by what early religious tradition holds.

[Guest gopecon]

I'm really hoping that some of our Trinitarian friends will chime in on this thread. I don't want this to be a bashing/debating thread, I'm hoping for some increased clarity about their understanding of deity.

[bytebear]

The fundamental difference between the LDS belief in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity is the belief in 3 Gods as opposed to 1 God. Nothing else beyond this point really matters, whether there's personage(s) of spirit or flesh and bone or something in between, the Trinity begins and ends with one God, and one God alone. There is no common ground past that point.

So then Mormons are Trinitarians?

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Mormon 7:7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

2 Nephi 31:21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

3 Nephi 11:36

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

3 Nephi 11:27

27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

Edited October 21, 2011 by bytebear

[prisonchaplain]

Here's an article that will not resolve our differences. It is intended to support the Trinity to Muslims. At the same time, it does argue for "an expansive view" of "one." I guess trinitarianism has a more expansive view of God's oneness than Islam (or modern Judaism), but a more restrictive view than LDS.

The Unique Oneness of God

[Spartan117]

So then Mormons are Trinitarians?

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Mormon 7:7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

2 Nephi 31:21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

3 Nephi 11:36

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

3 Nephi 11:27

27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

I wasn't trying to be difficult with my response, I have been struggling with the same question myself for some time now. PC started the thread in in question (I believe) at my request to get his knowledge and perspective on this very subject. I've also been talking with a good friend of mine who believes the Trinity is the nature of Deity, picking his brain as well to try and find "common ground" and the conclusion I came to was that 1 God vs 3 Gods is the irreconcilable difference. That is just my opinion, and my own conclusion. I thought I made it pretty clear in the other thread that I am far and away an expert on anything. Anyone else is free to correct or add to anything I said.

I'm not sure why you quoted all of those verses, I'm more confused at why the post is thanked, but if you like I can post an unnecessary list of quotes that clarifies the LDS belief that the Godhead are one in purpose, not in essence or being. But I assume you're aware of that and were just trying to prove ... something. Sorry if my post came off the wrong way.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know that anyone is wrong in what they've said with this thread. Trinitarians refuse to embrace anything that allows for other eternal gods to exist. We also believe that God is alone in his eternal nature and power and knowledge. So the discussion of God's nature does touch upon the nature of humanity, as well.

[bytebear]

I posted those verses to show that LDS scripture explicitly defines the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as one God. Your interpretation may vary.

But, the simple fact is we in common language talk of gods and God, but all gods are God. No matter how many "persons" (to use the Trinitarian term) make up God (whether it be three or millions) there is still only one God.

I believe there are an infinite number of gods or divine persons. I also believe they are all God. I also believe we are taught to pray to one of these persons in the name of another of these persons, namely we are to pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

The difference between us and Trinitarians isn't that we don't believe in one God. It's that we don't limit God to 3 persons. So maybe we are Infinitarians. But whether God is 3 or God is infinite, we are still monotheists.

[prisonchaplain]

byte...except, would you really say that those who are exalted could become equal with the Father? If we will always worship him, then does He not remain distinct and above us--even while we may become exalted Gods ourselves?

[james12]

PC, Good point. Even Joseph Smith agreed that Christ would 'tread in the tracks of His Father" and as the Son took his kingdom the Father would be exalted. Hence it would seem that we will always worship the Father as distinctly above us.

[Justice]

I believe there are an infinite number of gods or divine persons. I also believe they are all God.

This is a point I have debating on trying to make, but have not had the words.

Like the term "man." You can be speaking of one man in particular, or, you can be speaking of all men together. For instance, "Man is developing technology at an increasing pace." "Man is" in this sentence is singular and proper in our language (it is properly followed by is) even though it is speaking of the family of man.

"God" is and can be a similar term in our language. When the Bible says "God created the earth" it in fact meant many Gods created the earth, even if acting under the direction of the One God (the Father) they were all subordinate to.

Back to "man." There is only one flesh that is man. Zebra is not man; zebra is the flesh of horse. Tuna is not the flesh of man; tuna is the flesh of fish. So, man is one, and there is none like him.

The terms used for man and god are strikingly similar, in that they can be both singular and plural. The term God HAS BEEN used as both in scripture, and is the root foundation of the confusion. Scripture never meant to say "God is only one being or essence," outside of the fact that nothing else is like "God," as nothing is like "man" (as mentioned previously). But, as you have it, "one" can be interpreted different ways.

It is proper to say that an individual is both "man" and "a man." It is proper to say Deity is both "God" and "a God." That doesn't mean there's just a single God any more than it means there's a single man. All man is of one flesh (kind of) and all God is of one essense (kind of).

I don't know how many different ways I can say it, but I have decided this is the confusion.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Justice

[Justice]

You know, considering the "becoming equal with the Father" question, it is clear, again, that we can use the term "man" as an example for understanding (if you look at it right).

The Constitution says "all men are created equal." but, that really isn't the case in reality. Infants are "more equal" than adults, but still not equal. Some people will have the BORN IN ability to run fast, some will not. An infant is inferior to his father in many different ways. A father is inferior to his grandfather in many ways.

An infant can become like his father, and even grandfather. I think we use this analogy to somehow think we can become equal to God or even greater than God (singularly speaking of the Father). I think many outside our faith use this line of thinking to see our belief as heretical.

The fact is, we can never become greater than God the Father, or even equal to Him in the same eternity. He will always be greater, if for no other reason than we are His offspring and will always owe Him our very existence.

Now, the couplette often discussed about become as God must be taken in perspective. A boy can become like his father. But, just as the boy has become like his father, his father has now progressed, and the two are not alike at any given time.

In the eternities where age does not weaken you, but strengthens you, one can see how the two will never be the same, even though we are of the same essence or existence.

[applepansy]

PC, I don't believe we will ever be "equal" with the God the Father. We can "become like Him:, but by the time we become like God, He will have progressed ahead of us even more. :)

[bytebear]

byte...except, would you really say that those who are exalted could become equal with the Father? If we will always worship him, then does He not remain distinct and above us--even while we may become exalted Gods ourselves?

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost have a special relationship to us. Their roles are distinct and unique from each other, and are unique to us. All of the Father's creations are unique and special to Him. The Son is unique in his saving grace toward us. There will never be another "godly person" who can fulfill these roles for us. There is no other Father for us. There is no savior except Jesus Christ.

Speculatively, there may be other "godly persons" who have the same relationship to their creations, so the Father may not be unique in his role, but his role is unique to us.

[bytebear]

When I hear about this celestial hierarchy of who is greater than whom or will I become equal to the Father, I just think in my head: infinity = infinity + 1.

Edited October 22, 2011 by bytebear

[Guest johnymac001]

All opposition is based in the mind. Arguing a certain point of view only displays the basic tendency of the mind to divide, the create opposites and hold onto one side.

Each path or philosophy may have it's differences, but THAT TO WHICH it points is the subject matter of this blog. These expressions may focus on the "realization" that Oneness or God is already the case, or they may walk hand-in-hand with the seeker.