Does Faith Need Evidence?

[JoshuaFKon]

Hello everyone

I have heard a lot from some Mormons that you don't need "proof" or "evidence" to believe something is true. (I mean more evidence than a "feeling") Not all Mormons have told me this, But I have heard it quite often.

I was just wondering how many of you agree with that? or is there a certain "level" of evidence you need before you believe something?

I am not going to judge that opinion in this thread, I just want to get a feel for how many people here believe that, and why?

God Bless

Thanks Josh B)

[LionHeart]

Jesus said: "Thomas, you believe because you see, but blessed is he who believes without seeing."

I believe that proof follows faith. Joseph Smith taught that some people say "show me a sign, and then will I believe." But he then said that such people are wicked people and they will never recieve their sign. But it is actually the other way around. First we must believe and have faith. Then, if we exercise that faith, and it is rightfully placed, then we will recieve the signs. And the signs will not be just good feelings, but actual experiences that stay with us and give us a testimony that the Lord does exist and that He is with us. And if he is with us, then he must be pleased with our actions, therefore, offering us an assurance that we are on the right path.

Another principle comes to mind at this moment: Some people desire to know the truth. There is a truth out there, but finding it can be difficult, and many people lack the determination to know it for themselves. Therfore they ride on the testimonies of others. Now, if one goes to the Lord in prayer, and asks the Lord to manifest the truth unto him, the first thing the Lord is going to wonder is: "If I give this person the truth, what will he do with it? Does he just want to know for the sake of knowing; or is he going to live by it?"

I will tell you that the Lord will not give anyone the truth who does not intend to live by it. Such an action would only bring greater condemnation to that person. So when a person goes before the Lord to ask for the truth, he must be ready to submit himself to it whether he likes it or not. Otherwise, that person will not recieve an answer.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Hey L.H. (I like using those initials-don't know why I didn't think of it for you)

Do you think Thomas was seen as evil by the Lord?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Christos]

I voted "no".

I have never needed proof.

Scholasticism, which was greatly taught by Thomas Aquinas brought much heresy and destruction to the church . Scholasticism is the attempt to explain everything.

Some things can't be explained.

Jesus said: "Thomas, you believe because you see, but blessed is he who believes without seeing."

I think this speaks for itself.

Jesus was basically saying that Thomas had the advantage in belief in that he saw the death and resurrection with his eyes. Modern man however, does not see the death and resurrection with his eyes but rather with his faith, which gives great vision.

[Princess3dward]

What kind of evidence are you talking about?

In Mosiah 10:4-5 it says (BoM.. why I have faith... my evidence), that is you read these things and wanted to know if it was true, then ask God, and you would KNOW it was true (if it was.. if things arn't true you get this gross lousy feeling and that is never good). Also, the James 1:5 scripture in the bible says to ask God if you want to know something...

Like I said before.. you are a christian.. why wont you ask God?

[JoshuaFKon]

Like I said before.. you are a christian.. why wont you ask God?

I did ask God, several times. As honestly and as humblely as I could.....sorry to say I felt nothing.

[Princess3dward]

Like I said before.. you are a christian.. why wont you ask God?

I did ask God, several times. As honestly and as humblely as I could.....sorry to say I felt nothing.

Because you already think you are right.

That is why we can't answer your questions...

Because you think you are right.

If he gave you the answer,

would you listen?

Or would you keep asking the anti-mormons?

[JoshuaFKon]

Because you already think you are right.

That is why we can't answer your questions...

Because you think you are right.

If he gave you the answer,

would you listen?

Or would you keep asking the anti-mormons?

So let me see if I understand, the only way to believe in Book of Mormon, is for God to "tell" you that its true, but He'll only tell you that its true, if you already believe it?

Interesting....

Josh

[Ray]

Because you already think you are right.

That is why we can't answer your questions...

Because you think you are right.

If he gave you the answer,

would you listen?

Or would you keep asking the anti-mormons?

So let me see if I understand, the only way to believe in Book of Mormon, is for God to "tell" you that its true, but He'll only tell you that its true, if you already believe it?

Interesting....

Josh

No. He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true... and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth, with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

Or in other words, if you already have your mind made up about something, and you don't have the right idea, God is not going to tell you, or give you His assurance, that your idea is the right idea, because it's not. And instead He will wait until you are ready to learn what He knows to be true.

And btw, talking things out with Him, and going over the ideas you have in your mind as you talk with Him, while asking Him and waiting for Him to tell you the truth, is not the same as having your mind already made up... as long as you're open to receive His ideas, as a child wants to learn from his Father.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Because you already think you are right.

That is why we can't answer your questions...

Because you think you are right.

If he gave you the answer,

would you listen?

Or would you keep asking the anti-mormons?

So let me see if I understand, the only way to believe in Book of Mormon, is for God to "tell" you that its true, but He'll only tell you that its true, if you already believe it?

Interesting....

Josh

No. He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true... and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth, with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

Or in other words, if you already have your mind made up about something, and you don't have the right idea, God is not going to tell you, or give you His assurance, that your idea is the right idea, because it's not. And instead He will wait until you are ready to learn what He knows to be true.

And btw, talking things out with Him, and going over the ideas you have in your mind as you talk with Him, while asking Him and waiting for Him to tell you the truth, is not the same as having your mind already made up... as long as you're open to receive His ideas, as a child wants to learn from his Father.

Thank you.

When I checked back and saw his response,

I admit I was ticked,

and that may have showed in my post.

I am glad you responded before I had a chance. lol.

[JoshuaFKon]

No. He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true... and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth, with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

(1) He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true

Of course I want to know the truth.

(2)and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth

I believe God could tell me the truth.

(3)with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

As I said before, I asked as honestly as I could with an open mind.

Thanks

Josh

[Ray]

No. He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true... and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth, with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

(1) He'll only give tell you the truth, or give His assurance of the truth, if you really want to know what is true

Of course I want to know the truth.

(2)and for that you must ask Him with faith He can tell you, or assure you of the truth

I believe God could tell me the truth.

(3)with your mind open and ready to receive His answer.

As I said before, I asked as honestly as I could with an open mind.

Thanks

Josh

Then tell us what you think God told you, and we'll tell you what we think God told us, and if we find out that we have different thoughts, we can ask God what God thinks about that... and who we should believe...

That's really the point of testing our faith... isn't it???

Who will you choose to believe???

[JoshuaFKon]

Then tell us what you think God told you, and we'll tell you what we think God told us, and if we find out that we have different thoughts, we can ask God what God thinks about that... and who we should believe...

That's really the point of testing our faith... isn't it???

Ray,

I'm sorry to say I heard nothing, and therefore must depend on the evidence I have before me.

Sometimes I also envy the "knowing" that you claim to have. I sometimes wish that God would "tell" me the answers to all my questions.

But I am confident in the evidence for my faith.

Thanks,

Josh

[Ray]

Then tell us what you think God told you, and we'll tell you what we think God told us, and if we find out that we have different thoughts, we can ask God what God thinks about that... and who we should believe...

That's really the point of testing our faith... isn't it???

Ray,

I'm sorry to say I heard nothing, and therefore must depend on the evidence I have before me.

Why???

Why must you depend on that evidence, and only that evidence, to assure you of what really is true???

Why can't you simply say "I don't know" until God helps you know what is true???

Why must you make your mind up right now before you have all of the truth (in one idea)???

Why do you ask us what we know is true, when God will tell you the truth too???

I really, I mean REALLY, don't get that.

Sometimes I also envy the "knowing" that you claim to have. I sometimes wish that God would "tell" me the answers to all my questions.

Only sometimes???

Why don't you want this ALL the time???

Why can't you ask God until God answers you, so you can then know what is true???

Don't give up yet. You're only 18. Do you want all the answers RIGHT NOW???

Good. That's a start. God is ready to tell you. He just expects you to really, I mean REALLY, want it NOW.

But I am confident in the evidence for my faith.

Heh, you're confident with your evidence that you have for your faith, even though God has not told you what is true???

What makes you think you are and can be like Jesus, if you won't ask God for your answers???

It's time to wake up now, Joshua. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Only sometimes???

Why don't you want this ALL the time???

I don't wish it all the time because I dissagree with you, I would love to have a "knowing" but not at the expence of reason.

Why can't you ask God until God answers you, so you can then know what is true???

Don't give up yet. You're only 18. Do you want all the answers RIGHT NOW???

Jesus says in the NT that you should not pray the same thing again and again.

Good. That's a start. God is ready to tell you. He just expects you to really, I mean REALLY, want it NOW.

I really, really, want it.

But I am confident in the evidence for my faith.

Heh, you're confident with your evidence that you have for your faith, even though God has not told you what is true???

becuase all the evidence points to it being true. I have held Christianity up to a high standard and believe its true based on the evidence, but if tomorrw I found out that ,oh say, the OT was written after the NT I would look at my faith again.

thanks

Josh

[Heather]

The skeptic will say that to bear testimony when you may not know you possess one is to condition yourself; that the response is manufactured. Well, one thing for sure, the skeptic will never know, for he will not meet the requirement of faith, humility, and obedience to qualify him for the visitation of the Spirit.

Can you not see that that is where testimony is hidden, protected perfectly from the insincere, from the intellectual, from the mere experimenter, the arrogant, the faithless, the proud? It will not come to them.

Bear testimony of the things that you hope are true, as an act of faith. It is something of an experiment, akin to the experiment that the prophet Alma proposed to his followers. We begin with faith—not with a perfect knowledge of things. That sermon in the thirty-second chapter of Alma is one of the greatest messages in holy writ, for it is addressed to the beginner, to the novice, to the humble seeker. And it holds a key to a witness of the truth.

The Spirit and testimony of Christ will come to you for the most part when, and remain with you only if, you share it. In that process is the very essense of the gospel.

Is not this a perfect demonstration of Christianity? You cannot find it, nor keep it, nor enlarge it unless and until you are willing to share it. It is by giving it away freely that it becomes yours.

Boyd K. Packer, “The Candle of the Lord,” Ensign, Jan. 1983, 51

We must remember that neither God nor his gospel can be found and understood through research alone. The skeptic will some day learn to his sorrow that his egotism robbed him of much joy and growth. The things of God—and often the things of his earth—cannot be understood by the spirit of man, but are understood only through the Spirit of God. (See 1 Cor. 2:11.)

The Savior could have taken highly trained minds from the temple porches for the builders of his kingdom. But he went to the seashore to get humble fishermen. He wanted followers who would not depend upon their own intellects alone to ferret out truths. He wanted unbiased followers who were trusting, sincere, and willing to serve. There were many trained and educated Jews in Jerusalem who rationalized themselves completely out of a testimony and a rich spiritual life. Though Jesus was among them and they could see his miracles and hear his words, those scribes and Pharisees failed to recognize him as the Redeemer because they relied only on their mental processes.

Spencer W. Kimball, “Seek Learning Even by Study and Also by Faith,” Ensign, Sept. 1983, 3

[rosie321]

Thanks a lot Heather those comments were right on and beautifully said Thanks

[Ray]

I would love to have a "knowing" but not at the expence of reason.

Are you trying to infer that my "knowing" came at the expense of ALL reasoning, Joshua?

It wasn't, you know. Or if you don't know, it wasn't. My reasoning is inspired by God's assurances.

I can give you many reasons to believe in many things, but it takes faith from God to know the truth.

Jesus says in the NT that you should not pray the same thing again and again.

I think what you're referring to was what He called "vain repeitition", or repetition with no real purpose.

And if you want really want God to give you His knowledge, it is not vain to keep asking Him.

I really, really, want it (knowledge from God).

Good. Then get it. He's giving it FREE for the asking.

And He'll give you as much as you really, really want. And He'll never will run out or diminish. :)

I have held Christianity up to a high standard and believe its true based on the evidence, but if tomorrow I found out that, oh, say, the OT was written after the NT, I would look at my faith again.

Where does your real evidence come from, Joshua? From anyone other than God? How do you know what you know is what God now knows?... unless God has assured you it's true?

I know of many, many books written long, long ago, but I don't put my faith in those books... unless God assures me those books tell the truth, and then all my faith comes from God. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Are you trying to infer that my "knowing" came at the expense of ALL reasoning, Joshua?

It wasn't, you know. Or if you don't know, it wasn't. My reasoning is inspired by God's assurances.

I can give you many reasons to believe in many things, but it takes faith from God to know the truth.

Please then, do give me these "reasons"

And if you want really want God to give you His knowledge, it is not vain to keep asking Him.

Do you think I will be heard for my much speaking? I have prayed as honestly as I could, maybe He'll answer me today, maybe tomorrow. But untill then...I'd like proof.

Where does your real evidence come from, Joshua? From anyone other than God? How do you know what you know is what God now knows?... unless God has assured you it's true?

How do you know that your assurence if from God and not an "angel of light" or heartburn? Untill God speaks to me personally, you cannot fault me you using the mind God gave me.

And I cannot "prove" my knowlage, I could "wake up" any second now and find my whole life has been a dream (which would explain some things) But you cannot think I will simply take your word for it. I wait on God, untill then, I use logic.

Thanks

Josh

[Ray]

I can give you many reasons to believe in many things, but it takes faith from God to know the truth.

Please then, do give me these "reasons"

Why? What good what that do? How do you know reasons are true?

God shows me a truth, I choose to believe Him, and that is the reason I know it.

Would you know if God showed you something that's true? How would you know God if you saw Him?

And btw, next time, if you try to be specific, I will give you another reason to know a truth.

Do you think I will be heard for my much speaking? I have prayed as honestly as I could, maybe He'll answer me today, maybe tomorrow. But until then...I'd like proof.

I am proof, Joshua. I'm alive and living proof.

Do you know a better way to share your knowledge?

How do you know that your assurence if from God and not an "angel of light" or heartburn?

I just know, Joshua. God has spoken to me. And once you hear Him you will also know Him.

Until God speaks to me personally, you cannot fault me you using the mind God gave me.

I have a mind just as you do, Joshua. Do you know how to use yours to know God?

I cannot "prove" my knowledge, I could "wake up" any second now and find my whole life has been a dream (which would explain some things)

Heh, what would you learn if you could wake up?

Only you are really you, as God is God.

... you cannot think I will simply take your word for it. I wait on God, until then, I use logic.

Just wait on God, Josh. Logic alone can be faulty. There can often be things you won't think of.

But once you know God has assured you of truth, you will know what is true at that moment.

And btw, try doing a search for the keyword "reasoning". There are many good threads on that topic. :)

[Heather]

Josh, do you know what salt tastes like?

[JoshuaFKon]

Josh, do you know what salt tastes like?

Yes, why?

[Dr T]

"Describe it..." “explain it…”

[Ray]

"Describe it..." “explain it…”

... to someone who has never tasted salt, or salty things. :)

How do I know that salt is really salty? I tried it. I tasted. It's salty. :)

...or in other words, once you know God has spoken to you, you will know it is God who has spoken...

just as I know God has spoken to me. I asked. I heard. He's God. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Look, the salt thing is a good example.

I'm not saying that you're all absoultly wrong, What do I know? God could have told you.

But, in this thread I'm just trying to see what you think about it. I promised I would not critize your opinions on this thread.

But surely since I have prayed, Can you fault me for using only logic untill I get an answer from God?

Thanks Josh