Does Faith Need Evidence?

[prisonchaplain]

I just read the testimony of a former colleague of mine--a former Nazarene minister. He's extremely intelligent--studied at the Ph.D. level, and knows a lot of stuff. He says he had a deeply impactful mystical experience in which God showed him details and names about things he could not have known. The bottom-line is that God was calling him to conversion. And convert he did--to Catholicism!

At the age of 10 I was invited to church, had the gospel explained to me, and invited Jesus into my heart. I 'knew' I was forgiven, and now heaven-bound! Years later, I had the wonderful experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Again, I 'knew' it was of God--that it was true.

I've experienced other religions and did not sense enough of truth to leave what God has directed me towards.

One man, after much scholarly theological study leaves his church to join another--based on a personal revelation. Another, receives truth from childhood, has it tested over time, and sticks to what he's learned.

And then, there is ldstalk. Ray converts, others affirm the faith of their childhood, and Jason--he leaves what he now believes is unreasonable, and yet has gained a utilitarian appreciation for those who are blessed by any faith system.

Bottom-line: We can't all be right--unless you agree with postmodernism--that truth is individual and wholly subjective. Furthermore, personal revelation is mightily convincing to the individual, but does not transfer very well.

So, I voted for "some." Children need less--converting adults often a lot. I'd also submit that the level of proof each one needs is available--from God.

[Ray]

But surely since I have prayed, Can you fault me for using only logic until I get an answer from God?

Thanks Josh

If you're asking if I think it is wrong for you, or anyone else, to ONLY use logic, even if you have prayed before and are praying now and will continue to pray in the future, YES, I think it is wrong to ONLY use logic at ANY time.

There's a scripture from Isaiah who was inspired by God to say: Come, let us reason together.

It does NOT mean, use ONLY your reasoning. It means to ask God for His wisdom.

If you leave that step out, at ANY time at all, you're only relying on YOUR reasoning.

There's another scripture from David, who said something like: Lean not upon THINE OWN understanding. In ALL that you do, acknowledge God, and He will direct your path.

It does NOT mean: First pray to God, and then go and do what YOU think you should.

You need to get ALL your answers from God, every day, every minute, every moment.

If you do NOT acknowledge Him in EVERYTHING you do, you'll find out how weak you really are.

I once thought I was a REALLY smart guy... before God showed me what I didn't know. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Back to the salt thing,

Lets say there was a debate between two groups, One side said salt was sweet, on the other hand, the "anti-salts" claimed it was not sweet.

Lets say the one side said they "knew" that salt was "sweet" because they tasted it.

(lets also pretend that you need to be correct about salt to save your imortal soul)

The other side says they didn't really taste it, and they give diagrams of the tounge showing how salt differs from sweet things.

Now pretend you're an outsider, you'ver never even heard of salt, You happen to live on an un-charted island. (that happens to have internet access) you stumble upon the debate one day. The salts say the only way to know salt is sweet is to taste it, but you can't find any salt to taste on the island even though you looked really hard like they told you to.

What do you do?

Now I'm not saying I know that salt is "salty" becasue I've never tasted it, but can you understand how you would have to depend on the diagrams? of course you would never stop looking for salt, but you could ask the salts to explain the diagrams couldn't you?

Josh

Thanks for following me with the whole "salt" thing, sorry if its confusing

[rosie321]

JOsh,

There are many who have or are truly seeking truth. Some have discovered that LDS is for them and some have discovered for themselves that LDS is not for them for whatever reason. Either because they are right, didn't keep going, needed to follow their own path.... Who knows? But they still have a respectable attitude to members of the LDS faith. They are able to share their disagreeing view without any problem. To those people I am all for and have a deep respect for. I wish I could say the same for you at this moment.

You say that you want evidence. You want proof. That is all you can understand right now until God strikes you with lightening , or email ...

Well let me give you the evidence of why I feel your experiment is failing. Why you are unable to see the truth of the restored gospel and are missing the principles of your own christian faith. From the evidence that I see, you are not at all serious about learning truth. Or considering Mormonism is true. You are out to take down mormonism for whatever reason or mock it. You want to destroy and are of Satans side. May the following be some evidence to shine the light on that darkness for anyone who wants it. This is what the evidence shows me.

1. You stated before that you did not want to ask God again yet you are here "seeking" answers.

The Spirit of Evil as stated before teaches a man not to pray.

You have not left the board long enough to actually ask God today and to actually dialogue with him the or meditate on His Words that he has spoken.

Your cutting quick responses back indicate that you have not done what exactly you were asked to do by those you are seeking help from. Nor have you actually tried to act upon the information you were given. If you were seriously doing those things there would not be such an immediate response claiming it wasn't true. You would have taken it and thought about it.

You're seeking for your answers in the wrong place. You need to go back to God until you find the answers to satisfy. We can only say thats where I think it is. We have no clue where it is for you. You have to ask where you stand in relation to God because in the end that is what matters.

"God is not mocked whatever a man reapeth that will he sow"

2. You have demonstrated that you cannot be taken at your word. You have deliberately bore false witness or deliberately misled as is viewable on all your postings. I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and anonomity. threw into maybe some of the inconsistancies. But it kept going. You started "fighting back" harder with your personal fact details. All which contradict themselves. Its interesting to see what intricate webs we weave when we begin to decieve.

Bearing false witness is something that is in direct violation to the 10 commandments. Maybe you need to spend more time reviewing your own christian beliefs. I don't think you remember them as well as you thought you did. When you've shared your history throughout your posts it has changed every five minutes. It started out. I don't know anything. Please show me. All the time with pretty impressive arguments for someone who doesn't know anything. When people direct you to a place no I've already looked there. You're wrong. I just started my search yet in that short amount of time you state a long list of websites books etc. you have checked out. You have a mini mormon library. A pretty good website. All of this is a pretty amazing feat if you ask me for what is it less than a month of research into it. Give me a break! Also I'm not so sure if something was true and I had as much skeptism as you that I would invest the kind of money that you have into this so quickly. I would have borrowed the resources. Looked them up online. Taken it one step at a time. You read through everything like that.

Also If I were serious about my search I would be a little bit more open minded and humble in my response especially to people trying to help me.

3. "By their fruits ye shall know them." For the most part you bring nothing to the table then contention and negativity. Demonstrated by the way you pounce on people telling them they are wrong or not even taking the time to actually do those things. Theres no way you could in the amount of time. Reminds me of the verses that say Satan lieth wait to see who he can devour. Do a topical study on that. The pharisees and Saducees were like that to Jesus. Nipping at him. Arguing or debating points of doctrine yet somehow missing the whole point of it all in their debating. They grieved Christ because of their lack of faith and supposed knowledge. You have not demonstrated faith. Just a lot of whining. No wonder you are not getting any answer.

4. You want lightening fast answers and will not demonstrate patience at all. Patience being one of the fruits of the spirit. Its all now or forget it. I want it now. That attitude is a fruit of the flesh.

I could go on but I'll stop here. This is just the tip of the iceberg of evidence.

If your serious. Get On Your Knees And Fight Like A Man. Repent to the Big Guy. Build up your faith. Then come back with your answer.

Traveler I'm liking your post more and more and appreciate the fervor in which you wrote it.

[JoshuaFKon]

Rosie,

I'm sorry you feel that way about me,

I won't answer all your other questions because I have done so before.

But I strongly object to one point you made.

You have demonstrated that you cannot be taken at your word. You have deliberately bore false witness or deliberately misled as is viewable on all your postings.

I have never done this,

Also If I was going to accuse someone of being a liar, I would be more specific. Where have I lied? what did I say that was false? who have I mis-quoted? what statistic have I made up?

You exspect me to believe everything you say with "faith" regardless of anything else, but you won't believe anything I say becasue I disagree with you.

My library of books, would you like to see the shipping label that says when there were delivered? check the history of my site, It has been on for no longer than I have said. Would you like to see a pic of me to prove I am 18?! a blood sample to prove I am human?

Just becuase I don't agree with you I am a liar? can you not accept anything I say becasue I am not a Mormon?

Josh

[sgallan]

I have never needed proof.

If I am an adherent of "Warren Jeffs", am I therefore justified in committing acts against a minor because I have faith in the divinity of the Prophet..... that I have faith in.

[JoshuaFKon]

If I am an adherent of "Warren Jeffs", am I therefore justified in committing acts against a minor because I have faith in the divinity of the Prophet..... that I have faith in.

What?

[Dr T]

I wish there was a proponent of the FLDS church to answer that.

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Hello everyone

I have heard a lot from some Mormons that you don't need "proof" or "evidence" to believe something is true. (I mean more evidence than a "feeling") Not all Mormons have told me this, But I have heard it quite often.

I was just wondering how many of you agree with that? or is there a certain "level" of evidence you need before you believe something?

I am not going to judge that opinion in this thread, I just want to get a feel for how many people here believe that, and why?

God Bless

Thanks Josh B)

Interesting question - What proof is there that electrons exist as described by the popular "doctrines" of electrons? Yet how many of us in our modern society will "switch on" the "electrons" in our homes and expect (have faith that) the lights to come on? I have never heard anyone say, "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home or try any experiment to use electrons?"

It is not that people require proof of everything - it is for what they require as proof and why? Usually we require proof for things we do not want to believe or to which we dislike as an excuse for not believing but if we want to believe it we will use any excuse that there may be and say that it is all the proof we need. I made a statement once - Why believe anyone that has failed at a thing over believing someone that is successful at the same? I personally do not understand such palpably absurd logic.

The Traveler

[JoshuaFKon]

Why will no one give me a straight answer?

What proof is there that electrons exist as described by the popular "doctrines" of electrons? Yet how many of us in our modern society will "switch on" the "electrons" in our homes and expect (have faith that) the lights to come on? I have never heard anyone say, "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home or try any experiment to use electrons?"

(1) The proof that electrons exist are that you can see what they do, also, electrons are just a theory, (although I know of no one who dissagrees) If tomorrow some new evidence pointed towards no electrons...it would be accepted.

(2) You say you have never heard someone say "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home" If a large segment of the scientific community said that these "electrical" things were harmful, would you reseach it before you allowed it in your home?

All in all your "electron" analogy is severly flawed.

Josh B)

[Lindy]

Why will no one give me a straight answer?

Josh B)

Josh, I have been rather out of sorts, so I haven't been keeping up on everything....you ask about proof?

Why do we have to have proof of ANYTHING? I believe in certain things I can never "prove" Faith just happens to be one of them.... you have it or you find it.... or you just don't have it in your life period.

is there a certain "level" of evidence you need before you believe something?

my "evidence" is what sounds right to me.... the level of logic as it pertains to my life. I don't have to have something to back it up.... it's just there. Sometimes it's really hard to try to debate someone's logic as it applies to their life.

[rosie321]

You demand evidence. So I brought up something close to home that you could relate to. If I'm right then its calling a spade a spade. If I'm lying then you can see how easily evidence can be twisted to proove something that isn't.

I DO NOT LIGHTLY CALL ANYONE A LIAR. Maybe its not deliberate on your part but I defineately believe you are not being honest or in the very least greatly exaggerationg. You want evidence. I will explain it in a manner that hopefully you can understand. Look at the posts below. They show evidence of a very strong possibility that somewhere in your posts you were not completely honest. While the truth may hurt as I'm sure it did the Saducees and Pharisees I am under obligation to stand up for the truth and to shine the light on darkness. Especially in this case where there seems to be no or extremely little.

As for me calling you a liar because you are not mormon. That couldn't be farther from the truth. 99.9% (good estimation) of my true friends and associates (which I have many) are not mormon but they do not take me on the roller coaster ride that you do or jerk people around. I have thoughtfully and prayerfully answered their questions. Their spirit is completely different. Some have taken steps and others haven't. They are very educated people from a range of backgrounds and faith. Most have strong view points why they are not mormon. But within their first month they did not claim to have the answers or questions you have nor present the case in the manner that you have. Yours has been very organized and pointed from the start. I have tried to give you every last benefit of the doubt since people think and learn differently. I can respect them but I cannot respect your efforts. I only call it like I see it. Maybe this could be what is standing in your way of understanding the answers to your questions .

Here's my evidence. As I am not great at computers and do not want to spend 100's of hours posting and arranging. There is a large number and it may be confusing. So I have done my best to put post #'s down, their dates, and the posts of some of the comments that I think best support my argument from a small piece of your postings. That way if they are not easily read you can go back and see for yourself. Also anyone can feel free to check out all of the other posts. I picked and chose primarily from one forum. See if you agree with the evidence I am presenting.

At least try and understand why I may see things the way that I do. Try and consider the evidence...

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

These posts are taken from the I have 6 Questions

just want to say that I'm not trying to attack anyone, I am trying to look at the issues from both sides so I though I'd post here to get some Mormon perspective to some questions I have seen raised on anti-mormon sites.

I understand that if you just glanced at the Bible it too would seem unbelievable, so I am trying to have an open mind.

I have 6 questions- first post

post #4

As for my site, I tried asking these questions without a site, and everyone yelled at me for "attacking" them without listing my sources, or giving references. I have spent a total of 4 days building my site (oh, my!) And I only put so much effort into it because I am taking an HTML class this fall and I am trying to learn the basics. Forgive me for actually spending time researching Mormonisn, I realize that many people believe if I was serious I would simply "pray to see if it was true" and BAM! wow faith would appear, and I wouldn't feel the need to "attack" by asking all these stupid questions.

By the way thanks to EricM for the fairwiki site, I had not seen that site before, and I liked it so much it is now on my website. thanks

Everyone yelling at him on post #4? I think I missed it. Also he has spent 4 days building up the website when as he says in a few posts he has only been researching it for a week. That means he gathered all his questions and information in 3 days!

post 9

*

sigh* I never said I "thought these questions up on my own" As I reseached Mormonism, I read both the Pro and the Con on Mormonism.

These are the questions which I felt were not addressed to my satisfation.

Please don't tell me I should only read Pro-mormon sites, and please don't tell me I should just pray about it.

Coming here for basic direction in his research yet is telling us what to do. He's shooting out the bottom wrung. I could see if he's been a mormon for years or has researched it for years on end. But to be just starting out.....?

Post #46 Aug 15

Let me tell you a little about myself, I am now 18 years old, and I was raised in a strong Christian home. When I was about 15 years old, I had to defend my faith to a friend of mine, and I really just couldn't do it. I was also going through I rough period of time in my life that made me question my faith. I began to doubt my religon and wonder if there was even a God. Most of my family and friends are christians, but I can't say that they really researched Christianity, most of them just have "faith" in Christianity. I wish sometimes that I had the same kind of faith as they do...that I could just believe and have no doubts. But I can't. Anyway, I decided to try and prove my faith to myself, I read heavily on the subject, wrote papers, and searched for evidence, I was convinced at last by reading "The Case for Christ" and researching the messianic prophicies. I am now convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. (When I said I won't defend christianity because I'm not done researching it, I meant I don't have sources or references.)

I aplogize if I came on too strong, I'm sure you hear these questions alot. If you want to believe I am an anti-mormon bigot, who refuses to have an open mind, that's your right, but I'm not.

I don't believe in Mormonism, actually it seems very strange and mostly based on a "burning bossum" or "a knowing" But I am trying to have an open mind and see if there are answers to these questions. So far only two people on here have attempted to answer them.

[b]I don't want to come on like I know it all, because I don't, I have only been reseaching Mormonism for a week.

However, regardless of what you think of me personally I am going to continue asking these questions. since no one seems to want to go to my site I will try to post all my questions on here.

I understand that you anwser the same questions again and again, but this is my first week, so, if you would like to answer them go ahead, if not, no hard feelings.

Note bolds and underlining purposefully added by me.

.Now as For Traveler, who says

“it appears that you have not researched (let alone read) one single publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.” and

“Let's start with one honest admission. What publications of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS have you read?”

I have read The Book of Mormon, (not completely) I have read just about everything on Jefflindsay’s site, FAIR, FARMS, LDS.org….etc…What kind of Anti-Mormon sites have you read?

Post 53 aug 18 . Mind you your first post was only a couple of days ago and the post above says you have only been researching for a week. Much time has been spent here on the forum board. Yet you are also able to read all these sources? Pretty good. I wish I had that skill.

I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced.

I have run into this attitude a lot when talking with mormons, "if you go to an anti-mormon site your not really looking for the truth" I really don't understand that! I am a christian, I have been to many anti-christian sites, and while I disagree with their interpretation, and their conclusions, I can see where they're comming from, they raise valid points that must be addressed. I spent a lot of time researching christianity before I became a christian.

I'll be honest with you, when I started researching christianity I was afraid. "What if there is no proof" I thought, or "What if the evidence points against it?" My life would be meaningless if I became an atheist, I would spend my life fearing death. But, that's not what I found. When I reseached I saw that the "anti-christians" had many valid points. But I think the evidence is strong for christianity.

I can't understand the viewpoint that says "I won't see what the other side says" I believe if your really want to know about someone, you need to ask their detractors. I'm not saying that all mormons refuse to look at both side, many of them do, and I can respect (although I disagree) with their conclusions. But I have been told many times that if I really wanted to know about mormonism, I would ONLY research pro-mormon sites. frankly the logic I get from these people is so circular it makes me dizzy.

Desiré, I answered your "answers" before, did I lie? If so please tell me where so I can correct it.

I am not trying to "attack" you, I disagree with you yes, but I have an open mind. You will notice that I've never said anything about DNA "proving" that Mormonism is wrong, do you know why? Because I researched I am satisfied with the mormon answer.

These last two quotes are

Post 91 august 28. The underlined statement in the 1st line makes me go hmmmmm.

I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced.

Many people have asked me "Why Mormonism?" or "What do you have against us?"

I do not have anything against anyone. Let me tell you how I started researching Mormonism...

It was a dark and stormy night.....(actually It was a very nice night, but I'm going to take some poetic license here) I was online surfing, bored. again. As I was looking for something, anything, to do I came across a question posted on Yahoo Answers by a young Mormon. She asked if anyone had any questions about Mormonism? Now I have never really looked into any other religions other than Christianity, I really had no idea what Mormonism was about. I had the idea that they were not "christian" but I didn't know why. So out of a combination of bordom and couriosity and answered the question. "What is the difference between Mormonism and Christianity?" She replied promply and told me about "The Book of Mormon" I was intrigued. [b]After disscussing Mormonism for a couple of weeks, and reseaching both the Pro and Anti Mormon sites, I found 6 questions that she could not answer to my satisfactioin, neither could any other the Pro-Mormon sites such as Jefflinsay (my favorite) or FAIR, etc...So because I love debating and plus this was a very interesting subject. I started asking these questions on Yahoo Answers in hope of different answers. However the responses I got either told me that (1) It is a matter of Faith alone. or (2) same common flawed (in my opinion) answers. or (3) my questions were not referenced and if I was going to "attack" mormons I needed to list my souces. #1 and #2 were not that helpful, but #3 was vaild, so I bulid a website listing my questions. www.allaboutjoshua.com (soon to be www.thequestfortruth.org)

I have spent a great deal of time and money to reseach Mormonism, I have bought books, DVD's, and asked lots of questions to get LDS perspective.

I am very thankful to that girl because not only have I researched Mormonism, but I also spent a lot of time/money to research my own faith to see if it meets the standards I set for mormonism. I am pleased to say that it does.

What do you like and dislike mormonism?

I dislike that it appears to be based on lies. (no offense, I could be wrong) I like the strong moral character of mormons, I wish Christians had the same high standards

post 98 august 28 Who's calling someone a liar? You're upset with me. You said you were researching mormism for a couple of weeks with her and then came up with the 6 questions you could not answer. The 6 questions to start the post perhaps? Which makes your other statement in the other post an untruth.

Hello Ray,

Thanks for the book title, I'll be sure to read it when I come back from vacation, Although I have not read "Abraham in Egypt" I am familier with his (Dr. Hugh Nibley) work, and several of his theories on the Book of Abraham, such and the "Hidden Meaning Theroy" "The Scribes Did It Theory" and the "Missing Black and Red Scroll" Theory. All of which I find to be lacking, and grasping at straws.

But I'll be sure to read the book. If I may suggest a book, I believe you should read "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson

post 114 aug. 28 More stuff you have read in the what are we up to now time frame?

post 117 aug 28

Actually I would say the the validity of the Book of Abraham, and thus any theories or critizism of the Book of Abraham are "crutial" to you.

Because, as the late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie once said, the Book of Abraham:

“…contains priceless information about the gospel, pre-existence, the nature of Deity, the creation, and priesthood – information which is not otherwise available in any other revelation now extant."

So basically you're basing much of your doctrine, not on the Book of Mormon, but on the Book of Abraham.

I would suggest you reseach it. Don't just take my word on it, or anyone else's. Read "Abraham in Egypt" by Nibley and "By his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles Larson.

That goes for everyone.

Thanks,

Pretty strong statements for someone only a few weeks into their study. Seems kind of bold to me .. but then again just a differing of spirits I suppose

QUOTE

The problem is they're not questions.

Respectfully, yes they are. I give a statement which I believe, I point out that I could be wrong, and then I ask for other's opinions.

QUOTE

I know I'm not the only one who gets really get tired of touching upon the same things again and again. FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=cliches.deadhorse.gif" Especially when you've already done your homework by visiting lds.ord, Jeff Lindsay's site, FAIR, etc...

Resptfully sir, I am not forcing anyone to read my questions. And what's wrong with doing research first? I could understand if you didn't like that I made statments when I don't know what I'm talking about. But I did research it as best I could before comming here.

QUOTE

I'm more than happy to discuss those things, but you strike me as talking while plugging your ears.

I don't really know what to say to that, I am open minded, how can I prove this to you?

I have tried to be as polite as possible when asking my questions, I don't believe I have broken any of the rules of the site. I don't understand why you wish to close my thread?

I will apologize again if I have offended anyone, please forgive me.

Sorry didn't catch the quote # its between this one and the next on the 6 questions. Don't want to waste my time going back.

post 136 yesterday

quote]

In response to your idea that Hugh Nibley was GRASPING AT STRAWS:

Should I phrase what you’re doing like that??? Hugh Nibley did have some good knowledge to share, although he did not know EVERYTHING, and due to his lack he made comments to show he lacked some good knowledge from God… and that’s what you do when you share what you think when you don’t get your knowledge from God.

If you feel I'm graping at straws that is your opinion, I have not read his book that you suggested (yet) His theories that I have read I feel are lacking, prehaps I have not read them all yet.

Sheesh. Cut the guy a little more slack. He died an old man and lived a full life while gaining the knowledge he had, and I know that he had gained some good knowledge from God. And I know 'cause God tells me it’s good.

I admire Dr Nibley, I like that he at least tried to research what he believed, I after I read his book, I might still not agree with him, but I respect him.

But I'll be sure to read the book. If I may suggest a book, I believe you should read "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.

Heh, I thought you weren’t here to teach. I thought you wanted knowledge from us.

I'm not here to teach, someone reccomened me a book, I thanked them, promised to read it, and reccomended a book myself.

I know more about us and our beliefs than you do, and we’re gaining our knowledge from God.

Do you think you can add to all that?!?

It is because you know more about your beliefs that I am disscussiing them with you

And at the you're ready to stop asking???

How much do you REALLY want to know Him???

I think you must misunderstand me, I'm not going to "stop asking" but I'm not going to ignore all evidence and Ask God the same prayer 1000 times untill I get an answer.

I want to know Him (and I believe I do) with all my heart, what could be more important?

Read post 153 &158

yesterday post 167

QUOTE

Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path.

Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting.

Look above at post 15 , Post 19

I have read much of the Book of Mormon, and I mostly agree with it (doctrinally) What I do not agree with is The Book of Abraham, (which, by the way, also seems to conflict with the Book of Mormon as I said before)

I have not read the entire Bible (ever tried to read Leviticus?) But I have read most of it, I believe that I have studied Mormonism enough before I came on here (as you pointed out) That my opinion is worth considering.

But thanks for your thought, I will continue reading The Book of Mormon untill I finish.

I believe I have done that with Mormonism, I had never seen it before, I spent lots of serious time with it to try and learn and comprehend it. However, I found some of the answers (in my opinion) to be lacking.

QUOTE

I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things.

You honestly think that I would spend this much time on something because I want to "shoot down" anwers?

I'm trying to understand. But I don't think pointing out problems with answers I receive as "trifling with sacred things" I apologize if I have come off like that. it is not my intention.

QUOTE

But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself.

What effort would you like me to make? Read the Book of Mormon? Talk to LDS members? Read books from both sides? disscuss the problems I have on a Mormon Fourm? what should I do?

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That's just some of the posts from I have 6 question forum. I'm sure that if I had the desire I could find more evidence for my claims. But I want to go focus on positive things now. I've had enough of this ride. I'm getting sick and tired. In your christian research have you ever heard of Annias and Sapphira? Check it out in Acts 5. God is not mocked.

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE..... ALLELUJAH!!!!! I feel a little pentacostalism/ gospel coming on . Hands about to go up in the air , feet starting to move.....

[rosie321]

Since I tried writing a lot in short time let me clarify this post was geared towards JoshK. The other post was confusing regarding that. I was going to quote his comment so it was very confusing as to who I was addressing. I had added in a few comments so to clarify so I put post #'s and am showing what I added in since its hard to tell in the last part since the quote feature didn't work for me the way that I had hoped.

These posts are taken from the I have 6 Questions

Post1: Introductions

post4 Everyone yelling at him on post #4? I think I missed it. Also he has spent 4 days building up the website when as he says in a few posts he has only been researching it for a week. That means he gathered all his questions and information in 3 days!

post 9 Coming here for basic direction in his research yet is telling us what to do. He's shooting out the bottom wrung. I could see if he's been a mormon for years or has researched it for years on end. But to be just starting out.....?

Post #46 Aug 15

Let me tell you a little about myself, I am now 18 years old, and I was raised in a strong Christian home. When I was about 15 years old, I had to defend my faith to a friend of mine, and I really just couldn't do it. I was also going through I rough period of time in my life that made me question my faith. I began to doubt my religon and wonder if there was even a God. Most of my family and friends are christians, but I can't say that they really researched Christianity, most of them just have "faith" in Christianity. I wish sometimes that I had the same kind of faith as they do...that I could just believe and have no doubts. But I can't. Anyway, I decided to try and prove my faith to myself, I read heavily on the subject, wrote papers, and searched for evidence, I was convinced at last by reading "The Case for Christ" and researching the messianic prophicies. I am now convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. (When I said I won't defend christianity because I'm not done researching it, I meant I don't have sources or references.)

I aplogize if I came on too strong, I'm sure you hear these questions alot. If you want to believe I am an anti-mormon bigot, who refuses to have an open mind, that's your right, but I'm not.

I don't believe in Mormonism, actually it seems very strange and mostly based on a "burning bossum" or "a knowing" But I am trying to have an open mind and see if there are answers to these questions. So far only two people on here have attempted to answer them.

[b]I don't want to come on like I know it all, because I don't, I have only been reseaching Mormonism for a week.

However, regardless of what you think of me personally I am going to continue asking these questions. since no one seems to want to go to my site I will try to post all my questions on here.

I understand that you anwser the same questions again and again, but this is my first week, so, if you would like to answer them go ahead, if not, no hard feelings.

Note bolds and underlining purposefully added by me.

[i]Mind you your first post was only a couple of days ago and the post above says you have only been researching for a week. Much time has been spent here on the forum board. Yet you are also able to read all these sources? Pretty good. I wish I had that skill.

Post 91 Aug 28

I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced.

I have run into this attitude a lot when talking with mormons

, "Post 91 august 28.

The underlined stataments in his quote makes me go hmmmmm...

I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced.

Post 98 Aug 28th

Many people have asked me "Why Mormonism?" or "What do you have against us?"

I do not have anything against anyone. Let me tell you how I started researching Mormonism...

It was a dark and stormy night.....(actually It was a very nice night, but I'm going to take some poetic license here) I was online surfing, bored. again. As I was looking for something, anything, to do I came across a question posted on Yahoo Answers by a young Mormon. She asked if anyone had any questions about Mormonism? Now I have never really looked into any other religions other than Christianity, I really had no idea what Mormonism was about. I had the idea that they were not "christian" but I didn't know why. So out of a combination of bordom and couriosity and answered the question. "What is the difference between Mormonism and Christianity?" She replied promply and told me about "The Book of Mormon" I was intrigued. [b]After disscussing Mormonism for a couple of weeks, and reseaching both the Pro and Anti Mormon sites, I found 6 questions that she could not answer to my satisfactioin, neither could any other the Pro-Mormon sites such as Jefflinsay (my favorite) or FAIR, etc...So because I love debating AHH at last some truth my interjection and plus this was a very interesting subject. I started asking these questions on Yahoo Answers in hope of different answers. However the responses I got either told me that (1) It is a matter of Faith alone. or (2) same common flawed (in my opinion) answers. or (3) my questions were not referenced and if I was going to "attack" mormons I needed to list my souces. #1 and #2 were not that helpful, but #3 was vaild, so I bulid a website listing my questions. www.allaboutjoshua.com (soon to be www.thequestfortruth.org)

I have spent a great deal of time and money to reseach Mormonism, I have bought books, DVD's, and asked lots of questions to get LDS perspective.

I am very thankful to that girl because not only have I researched Mormonism, but I also spent a lot of time/money to research my own faith to see if it meets the standards I set for mormonism. I am pleased to say that it does.

What do you like and dislike mormonism?

I dislike that it appears to be based on lies. (no offense, I could be wrong) I like the strong moral character of mormons, I wish Christians had the same high standards

post 98 august 28

Who's calling someone a liar? You're upset with me. You said you were researching mormism for a couple of weeks with her and then came up with the 6 questions you could not answer. The 6 questions to start the post perhaps? Which makes your other statement in the other post an untruth.

Post 114 Aug 28th

[b]More stuff you have read in the what are we up to now time frame?

post 117 aug 28

Pretty strong statements for someone only a few weeks into their study. Seems kind of bold to me .. but then again just a differing of spirits I suppose

post 136 yesterday

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

And at the you're ready to stop asking???

How much do you REALLY want to know Him???

I think you must misunderstand me, I'm not going to "stop asking" but I'm not going to ignore all evidence and Ask God the same prayer 1000 times untill I get an answer.

I want to know Him (and I believe I do) with all my heart, what could be more important?

post 153 &158

yesterday post 167

QUOTE

Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path.

Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting.

Look above at post 15 , Post 19

I have read much of the Book of Mormon, and I mostly agree with it (doctrinally) What I do not agree with is The Book of Abraham, (which, by the way, also seems to conflict with the Book of Mormon as I said before) but you haven't even read it all by your own admission My comment addedI have not read the entire Bible (ever tried to read Leviticus?) But I have read most of it, I believe that I have studied Mormonism enough before I came on here (as you pointed out) That my opinion is worth considering.

But thanks for your thought, I will continue reading The Book of Mormon untill I finish.

QUOTE

I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things.

You honestly think that I would spend this much time on something because I want to "shoot down" anwers?

I'm trying to understand. But I don't think pointing out problems with answers I receive as "trifling with sacred things" I apologize if I have come off like that. it is not my intention.

QUOTE

But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself.

What effort would you like me to make? Read the Book of Mormon? Talk to LDS members? Read books from both sides? disscuss the problems I have on a Mormon Fourm? what should I do?

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[color=#FFFF33]Hope that better clarifies my point of untruths being told by you. Which to be perfectly impartial I asked one of my non LDS friends to view it to see if I was being unreasonable. They agree with the evidence I presented and feel that the evidence is strong enough to convict and find you guilty.

In the LDS / christian beliefs after you become aware of wrong the next step would be be repentence .

[LionHeart]

Hey L.H. (I like using those initials-don't know why I didn't think of it for you)

Do you think Thomas was seen as evil by the Lord?

Thanks,

Dr. T

No, I don't thinkThomas was evil in the eyes of the Lord, because he was a good man; he just had less faith than the rest of them. I believe the type of people who is referred to in the Doctrine and Covenants are those who are on a wicked, or neutral path who refuse to change unless they recieve hard evidence. (a sign)Thomas was at least on the right path.

[JoshuaFKon]

Rosie,

It is sad that you cannot address my questions....and so you resort to a favorite ploy of those who cannot answer. Character Assassination.

If you can't answer the questions, well, only one thing to do! make it so the Questions aren't worth answering.

Let me tell you something, I am not a liar. I don't think I could convince you of that no matter what I say, but even if you think I am a liar, a horrible person who dosn't deserve to live. Does that make my questions less valid? Why don't you spend a little bit of time researching and instend of "destroying" me personally, "destroy" my questions, my logic?

As for your lenthly and difficult to read posts that "prove" I am a liar (I can't trust your indepentent person who agrees with you becasue he's not a mormon a so is not trustworthy)

Your basic problem seems to be that I have read too much, know my sources too well, my answers are to quick, does that make me a liar?

As you kindly pointed out in your post before, on Aug 15 I said I had only been researching Mormonism for a week. However, as you also pointed out I said: "After disscussing Mormonism for a couple of weeks"

Your confusion I believe comes from this, so let me clear it up for you,

I disscussed Mormonism with one person for a couple of weeks.

She couldn't answer all my questions. Because I was not going to base my opinion of Mormonism on one person's beliefs I then started researching it in depth, going to pro-mormon sites to see if they could answer.

I asked other mormons on Yahoo answers. The told me to list my sources. I put up a site based mostly on my emails with the mormon I was talking to, and after about a week of researching. I posted on here.

Since you do not "know" (unless of course God just told you) that I'm lying. I would prefer in the future, if you said, it's is "unlikely" that I'm telling the truth, or his story is not very easy to swallow.

But since you cannot prove that I have lied. and therefore am on "the side of satan"

I would suggest you consider the possiblity that I'm telling the truth and therefore you are "bearing false witness" against me.

Thanks,

Josh

[Traveler]

Why will no one give me a straight answer?

What proof is there that electrons exist as described by the popular "doctrines" of electrons? Yet how many of us in our modern society will "switch on" the "electrons" in our homes and expect (have faith that) the lights to come on? I have never heard anyone say, "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home or try any experiment to use electrons?"

(1) The proof that electrons exist are that you can see what they do, also, electrons are just a theory, (although I know of no one who dissagrees) If tomorrow some new evidence pointed towards no electrons...it would be accepted.

(2) You say you have never heard someone say "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home" If a large segment of the scientific community said that these "electrical" things were harmful, would you reseach it before you allowed it in your home?

All in all your "electron" analogy is severly flawed.

Josh B)

You may think that my electron analogy is severly flawed. But a lot of what you were taught in school about electrons is simply not true - maybe most of what you were taught. So much so that I doubt you can accuratly discribe to me what an electron is and why it behaves that way it does. If you know how an electorn behaves.

I would also point out the Edison believed that alternating current (electrons) was far to dangerious for domestic use and many scientest signed on to Edison. Can you tell me why he thought alternating current to be dangerious? Do you care that no one teaches of the danger Edison warned about? Do you have a garbage disposal in your home with a switch to turn it on near the sink? How much have you researched electons? This appears to me to be a double standard on your part - especially in light of your arguments concerning the Mormons.

Every source of information has a bias. Those that fail at anything have a bias very different than those that are successful. I have yet to hear a good argument for considering the bias of a failuer over the bias of someone that is successful.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Why will no one give me a straight answer?

Why do you want US to answer your questions when you can simply ask God?

And btw, I believe this life is a time we can show who REALLY has faith in God, and far too many that I have known want mainly to listen to others.

Heh, peer pressure. Do YOU feel any pressure from peers?

To me it is nothing but what THEY believe, and I will learn only from God. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Why do you want US to answer your questions when you can simply ask God?

Thanks Ray, very..... helpful....... I actually wasn't paying attention the first 500 times someone told me to pray!

maybe if I just pray a little harder...

lol

Josh

[EricM]

Okay, second time typing this... (the keyboard holder fell, keyboard, mouse and all, onto my foot... ouch. Then I noticed the page was closed :-/) But anyways...

Josh, you simply need to be patient with this. God ALWAYS answers our prayers, but in his own time. And by no means will it be vain to ask him again for some kind of witness. Just search, ponder, and pray as often as you can. If you're consistant with this, God will definately recognize your faith and give you the witness you've been searching for. Patience and diligence, my friend. I guess I'll give you a scripture from the Book of Mormon (even though you haven't yet accepted it as such):

Ether 12:6

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye recieve no witness until after the trial of your faith.

And also:

Proverbs 3: 5&6

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Gotta love scripture masteries .

As for the whole Book of Abraham thing, read and ponder its content for now; worry about its origin later. There are certainly some interesting theories about this Book, and I'm quite fascinated with it myself. However, theories won't drive me from what the Spirit has revealed to me as scripture.

Good luck with your search, Joshua. You're young (though I'm younger), and you're bound to find the answers you seek in due time. God bless.

Note: Edited for spelling and grammar.

[JoshuaFKon]

Thank you for your post Eric, very nice, I will continue to ask God for answers...

[Serg]

Some evidence is needed, at least is what i think. I do not mean that evidence(let it be some or much) is needed to establish a truth, but to believe in such. If not, God would not use 'witnesses", or many other resources to promote fact-grounded-faith, if we didnt believe God to be the most powerful concievable being, we would not worship him, for he cant do a thing for us(at least Joseph taught us that in Lectures on faith).

[Dr T]

"No evidence is need to establish truth." What do you mean?

THanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

"No evidence is need to establish truth." What do you mean?

THanks,

Dr. T

I'm not sure if this is what Serg had in mind, but here's how I see that as true.

The truth is the truth, and in itself evidence that truth is just always the truth.

Truth does not need evidence to prove itself true. WE simply need some way to know it.

Do you know how to know what is true???

Do you know who Truth is, and where He came from???

He said: I'm the way... and the truth...

Does me saying that tell you who???

Do you know who I meant by that clue???

If so then you know Him, and you know He is true.

And I know that you CAN know too. :)

[Dr T]

Thank you, Ray.

Jesus did say he is the way, the truth and the life. I understand things that are taken as self-evident truth. They cannot be refuted logically. That, in a sense it evidence.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Thank you, Ray.

Jesus did say he is the way, the truth and the life. I understand things that are taken as self-evident truth. They cannot be refuted logically. That, in a sense it evidence.

Thanks again,

Dr. T

Yes, that is true, but how can YOU know what is true???

I know what I know and I know lots of truth. And you can know what I know too.

I'm learning from God, just as you can now do, and if we're not one I feel blue.

Take it away, Aretha... There's no one in the world... in this world... ooooh ooooh... ooooooh...