Warren Jeffs Arrested

[shanstress70]

They caught Warren Jeffs last night!

http://www.wral.com/news/9754190/detail.html

I've never understood why it's been so difficult to find this man.

[daenvgiell]

well I don't even know who he is but I do live in australia, man I wish people would stop giving us bad names, now what are people going to think of us?

[Princess3dward]

AH! SICK!

I thought people still doing that were EXED!

WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM A MORMON!

ARGGG!!!

[shanstress70]

WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM A MORMON!

ARGGG!!!

Where do you think he got the idea of polygamy? According to him, you guys are the ones who aren't being faithful followers of Joseph Smith.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM A MORMON!

ARGGG!!!

Where do you think he got the idea of polygamy? According to him, you guys are the ones who aren't being faithful followers of Joseph Smith.

I was taught that whoever still did that was excomunicated.

He obviously didn't listen.

[shanstress70]

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it bugs me when LDS don't want to admit any ties with polygamists. Whether you agree with it or not, and even though people who practice it now are excommunicated, there is a tie for a reason. Joseph Smith introduced this in the US in modern times.

[Princess3dward]

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it bugs me when LDS don't want to admit any ties with polygamists. Whether you agree with it or not, and even though people who practice it now are excommunicated, there is a tie for a reason. Joseph Smith introduced this in the US in modern times.

Did I say we didn't?

I said that we DON'T!

Please note the difference!

[Jason]

WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM A MORMON!

Could it be because he believes the Book of Mormon is scripture?

Or maybe because he believes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets of god?

[shanstress70]

<div class='quotemain'>

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it bugs me when LDS don't want to admit any ties with polygamists. Whether you agree with it or not, and even though people who practice it now are excommunicated, there is a tie for a reason. Joseph Smith introduced this in the US in modern times.

Did I say we didn't?

I said that we DON'T!

Please note the difference!

As I said in my last post, I realize you don't NOW, but you want to know why people associate Jeffs with the term 'Mormon'. I'm telling you why they do.

No need to shout. :)

[Princess3dward]

You can't shout on a computer!

That is just silly!

[Dr T]

Could it be because he believes the Book of Mormon is scripture?

Or maybe because he believes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were prophets of god?

Maybe he prayed for a testimony about it. I'd guess that he prayed to God for confirmation of it and has recieved it. What do we do with that/now?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Maureen]

AH! SICK!

I thought people still doing that were EXED!

He is not a member of the mainstream Utah Mormon church, so that's not possible.

WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM A MORMON!

Did I miss something. No where in the article does it say that he is a Mormon. It says he is a polygamist leader - leader of the FLDS. Are you confusing the two churches, Desire?

M.

[Dr T]

New York Times Headline from today:

Leader of Polygamist Mormon Sect Is Arrested

What are your thoughts about "Mormon Sect" in this headline?

THanks,

Dr. T

[cutelilchikin]

Haven't you guys been watching all the specials. Dateline's had them, everyone has. WE know they're talking about the FLDS but most people out of the church still assume we practice polygamy. I recently moved to New Mexico and you have no idea how many times I've been asked how many wives my friends back home have. What they don't get is that we haven't practiced polygamy since it was outlawed. One of the church's beliefs is to obey the laws of the land. Even if I'm in the process of questioning the church's doctrine, I remember learning the history of the church. It ticks me off when they call the FLDS Mormons because they HATE us. Larry King had a special tonight. His wife is Mormon so he's done a lot for the church in getting the real beliefs out there. Anyway. On the special they asked one member of the FLDS if they were Mormon and their reply was "No. We hate the Mormons." The so-called "prophet" who started the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says the reason he started his church is because he wanted to get back to the basic beliefs of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, but what that guy didn't seem the realize is that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young didn't believe in incest, and they were the ones who were told about the word of wisdom. The FLDS drink alcohol. They treat women like possessions. And when a young woman decides at the age of 14 that she doesn't want to marry her uncle and tries to run away, they lock her up. The cops in the town where these people are based are corrupted by their church. When a woman objects to her husband taking on another wife, or disagrees with any of their beliefs, they get the cops to arrest her, saying she is insane. When one of the young children complain that they are being molested, they cover it up or blame the victim. Even you non-LDS should understand why we wouldn't want to be linked to the bad name they give the human kind. When Joseph Smith went out in the woods to pray, he wanted to know what church to join. When he got his answer and acted upon it by bringing the LDS church back on the earth, I don't think he had the FLDS in mind. When he asked the men to take on more than one wife, his main intent was to help those widows to raise their children and keep food on their table. He didn't do it because he wanted to sleep with more than one woman. He had the welfare of the members he was overseeing in mind. He died for his beliefs and his name should not be linked to those sickos called the FLDS!!!

[Fiannan]

I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it bugs me when LDS don't want to admit any ties with polygamists. Whether you agree with it or not, and even though people who practice it now are excommunicated, there is a tie for a reason. Joseph Smith introduced this in the US in modern times.

I absolutely agree with you. I like the way many "modern" Muslims describe polygamy. While a Muslim woman who is secular may say would never want to live in polygamy she will often note something like "However, the Prophet recorded that in Allah's eyes it is permissable for a man to have up to four wives so if there are believing men and women who want to live like that it is okay".

I much more honest and genuine than when I hear some Mormons degrade the entire practice and then say they should go after people who practice polygamy -- and then create an imaginary distinction (philosophically speaking) between the mainstream Mormon Church and the fundamentalist Mormon organizations. The "ban" on polygamy is not a condemnation of the practice (doctrine) but rather a policy statement -- which can lead to excommunication. To then say these people have in some way stolen the term "Mormon" is akin to when the communists in China arrested Mao's wife and three other leaders for being counter-revolutionaries (ironically, because they wanted to preserve Mao's communist theories). The people who called Mormons Mormons back in 1880 were speaking of people whe accepted Joseph Smith as a prophet and believed in the Book of Mormon, the Bible and certain doctrines like polygamy. So...

[shanstress70]

Haven't you guys been watching all the specials. Dateline's had them, everyone has. WE know they're talking about the FLDS but most people out of the church still assume we practice polygamy. I recently moved to New Mexico and you have no idea how many times I've been asked how many wives my friends back home have. What they don't get is that we haven't practiced polygamy since it was outlawed. One of the church's beliefs is to obey the laws of the land. Even if I'm in the process of questioning the church's doctrine, I remember learning the history of the church. It ticks me off when they call the FLDS Mormons because they HATE us. Larry King had a special tonight. His wife is Mormon so he's done a lot for the church in getting the real beliefs out there. Anyway. On the special they asked one member of the FLDS if they were Mormon and their reply was "No. We hate the Mormons." The so-called "prophet" who started the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says the reason he started his church is because he wanted to get back to the basic beliefs of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, but what that guy didn't seem the realize is that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young didn't believe in incest, and they were the ones who were told about the word of wisdom. The FLDS drink alcohol. They treat women like possessions. And when a young woman decides at the age of 14 that she doesn't want to marry her uncle and tries to run away, they lock her up. The cops in the town where these people are based are corrupted by their church. When a woman objects to her husband taking on another wife, or disagrees with any of their beliefs, they get the cops to arrest her, saying she is insane. When one of the young children complain that they are being molested, they cover it up or blame the victim. Even you non-LDS should understand why we wouldn't want to be linked to the bad name they give the human kind. When Joseph Smith went out in the woods to pray, he wanted to know what church to join. When he got his answer and acted upon it by bringing the LDS church back on the earth, I don't think he had the FLDS in mind. When he asked the men to take on more than one wife, his main intent was to help those widows to raise their children and keep food on their table. He didn't do it because he wanted to sleep with more than one woman. He had the welfare of the members he was overseeing in mind. He died for his beliefs and his name should not be linked to those sickos called the FLDS!!!

First of all, according to reading I have done on the subject, the argument that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy to help out the widows is just not true. He first talked about polygamy long before Mormon men were persecuted. Actually, Fannie Alger was the first Mormon plural wife on record and she wasn't a widow. She was Emma's 16 year old maid that Joseph took for a wife.

Secondly, you keep bringing up 14 year olds, but are you OK with Joseph Smith himself taking a 14 year old as one of his many wives? What's that - they just married young back then? Yes, they married younger than people do today, as a rule, but 14 was not the norm.

[cutelilchikin]

Have you ever been around the FLDS? Have you encountered them daily? I doubt it. Let's get one thing straight. These people don't have more than one wife because the Lord commanded it. They have multiple wives so they have more women to control. I have spoken to many of the youth who have run away from the polygamist life style. They don't just have more than one wife. They have very perverse theories on how everyday life should be lived. Their right and wrong does not follow the laws of the land. If you're going to bring the muslims into this, then we can talk about the extremist. Not all FLDS want to get back to basic beliefs just as not all muslims just want to practice their religion. The FLDS condemn anyone who tries to get free of the power the "prophet" holds over them. They are not allowed to talk to their families and are not spoken of again. I'm not saying all of the FLDS are bad. That's generalizing. But Warren Jeffs is a horrible person. He forces teenage girls to marry men who they are closely related to. Think how you would feel if you were forced to marry your uncle or someone that is that closely related to you. You would have to procreate with that person also. That's sick. Don't even try to compare them to the Mormon polygamist. Polygamy was alright in the 1800's but it was outlawed and the church recognizes that. Maybe you should too.

And on the 14 year olds, when Joseph Smith was prophet and lived, it was the 1800's. My Grandma got married when she was 16 and that was in the 1940's. It was the norm to marry young back then because they also died younger. Read your history book, honey! There is a huge difference between back then and now (like electricity, indoor plumbing, the internet). Their lives were so different than ours are. They had harder lives. Joseph Smith didn't force his wives to marry him or force any of the other women to marry any of the men. He didn't force his daughters to marry his brothers. He didn't hide child abuse. He didn't preach one thing and go out and do exactly what he was preaching against. Don't talk on a subject that you have no personal experience on. The reality of the FLDS is a whole different situation than when Joseph Smith had more than one wife. Think about it. . .

[cutelilchikin]

We're all getting a little defensive here. . . Maybe we should stop this discussion. Sorry if I sound mean on my replies. But I lived in a town in Utah very close to where the FLDS are based and they all used to come to that town and work and shop and do all that stuff. That's where a lot of the runaways end up. I was trying to stick up for the victims in that cult. And yes, I consider it a cult because it's based on control. And now I'm wondering what they'll do now that they're "prophet" was captured. . .

[shanstress70]

ChiKin, I'm not saying that the FLDS is the same as LDS. Many of them have horrible practices, that I do not respect in the way that I try to respect most religions. I was only giving you a couple of similarities and telling you why I believe the fundamentalists are associated with Mormons today. There will always be an association because of the Joseph Smith factor. Both churches believe they are following him.

I respect and love many LDS. Although I don't personally know of any, other than emailing, I pity FLDS.

[cutelilchikin]

Thanks for making that clear. It still ticks me off that we get associated with them. But I've learned to laugh and joke about the polygamist questions I get. And after the jokes, I can calmly explain that polygamy no longer exists in the LDS church. It goes a lot further than getting defensive. Oh well. Life goes on, right?!

[Dr T]

Hi ChiKin,

You said,

I was trying to stick up for the victims in that cult. And yes, I consider it a cult because it's based on control.

To you a "cult" is based on control. Anything else?

Thanks

[curly_gurly86]

There is an article put out on August 29th by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints dealing with the capture of Warren Jeffs and how he is in NO way associated with the church and it's members. This is the article taken from the official church website at lds.org and from...

http://lds.org/newsroom/showrelease/0,1550...1-23938,00.html

Polygamist Sects Are Not Mormons, Church Says

29 August 2006

SALT LAKE CITY Many news outlets are reporting on the recent arrest of fugitive polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, who is on the FBIs Most Wanted list.

Some media outlets have been very careful to describe Warren Jeffs as a fugitive polygamist sect leader. Other reports refer to Mr. Jeffs as a Mormon, fundamentalist Mormon, or as the leader of a Mormon sect.

Some may debate what the definition of a Mormon is, but terms like Mormon Tabernacle Choir, Mormon Temple and Mormon missionaries are universally understood to refer to the 12-million member Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Quite simply, calling Warren Jeffs a Mormon is misleading and confusing to the vast majority of audiences who rightfully associate the term Mormon with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The following information may be helpful in further drawing the distinction:

Warren Jeffs Is Not a Mormon

Warren Jeffs is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and never has been.

Mormons Do Not Practice Polygamy

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued the practice of polygamy in 1890. (Read history.)

In 1998, President Gordon B. Hinckley said: "I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. ...

"If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church." (Read full statement.)

There Is No Such Thing as a "Mormon Fundamentalist" or "Mormon Sect"

The term "Mormon" is a nickname commonly applied to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is no such thing as a "Mormon fundamentalist," nor are there Mormon sects." A correct term to describe these polygamist groups is "polygamist sects." The inclusion of the word "Mormon" is misleading and inaccurate.

[Dr T]

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

sect

One entry found for sect.

Main Entry: 1sect

Pronunciation: 'sekt

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English secte, from Anglo-French & Late Latin & Latin; Anglo-French, group, faction, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow -- more at SUE

1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination

2 archaic : SEX 1 <so is all her sect -- Shakespeare>

3 a : a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b : PARTY c : FACTION

[Jason]

Rather than put up multiple posts, I think I'll do just one.

And Fianan, you continuously earn my respect.

chiKin,

I'd like to reply to your posts:

WE know they're talking about the FLDS but most people out of the church still assume we practice polygamy.

Spiritually speaking, you do. My uncle is still sealed to his first two wives, even though he's divorced to both of them. So he's sealed to three women right now. My dad is sealed to my deceased mother and my step-mother. So he's a spiritual polygamist as well.

So to deny you practice polygamy is a farce to say the least. Just because you don't allow the men to have sex with the women they're sealed to (if alive) doesn't deny the practice.

What they don't get is that we haven't practiced polygamy since it was outlawed. One of the church's beliefs is to obey the laws of the land.

Technically you're wrong. Polygamy was officially outlawed in 1865 by the Federal Government in all US Territories, but the church continued to break the laws of the land for another 25 years!!! Then, when the US pardoned the Church in 1891, the Church deceived the US government by allowing polygamy to continue in Mexico and Canada, contrary to the agreement as understood by the Government, until 1904!

Half of the Quorum of 12 married polygamously after the 1890 manifesto of Wilford Woodruff. It was a political document, not a "revelation". Everyone expected that when Utah gained statehood, they would be free to reinstate plural marriage. However, it never did happen.

Anyway. On the special they asked one member of the FLDS if they were Mormon and their reply was "No. We hate the Mormons."

Does one member speak for all 10,000? If I meet a guy who's in jail for rape and he's LDS, does that mean that all LDS are rapists?

Please don't make sweeping accusations of religions.

The so-called "prophet" who started the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints says the reason he started his church is because he wanted to get back to the basic beliefs of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, but what that guy didn't seem the realize is that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young didn't believe in incest, and they were the ones who were told about the word of wisdom.

Warren Jeff's didn't start the FLDS Church. His father officially began it, though he was only a part of the Council of Friends who felt slighted by Joseph White Musser for not being appointed as his "second elder". Rulon Allred and the guys in Short Creek split, and one eventually became the FLDS, the other the AUB.

The FLDS drink alcohol.

So did Jesus, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

They treat women like possessions.

Yes, and that's why most Mormon Fundamentalists won't have anything to do with the FLDS either. They don't like being associated with them any more than you do.

When he asked the men to take on more than one wife, his main intent was to help those widows to raise their children and keep food on their table. He didn't do it because he wanted to sleep with more than one woman. He had the welfare of the members he was overseeing in mind. He died for his beliefs and his name should not be linked to those sickos called the FLDS!!!

That's actually just a cover-up story told to justify the practice. Nothing there is based on actual fact.

Have you ever been around the FLDS?

Yes. While I was not a member of the FLDS church, I was a member of the AUB, and we had several interactions with them.

Let's get one thing straight. These people don't have more than one wife because the Lord commanded it.

You obviously are not speaking from first-hand knowledge. Just as the early mormons did so because it was a commandment, so do todays mormons who practice it. Many do it out of devotion to God. Some do it for sex. How do you tell the difference?

I have spoken to many of the youth who have run away from the polygamist life style.

That's fine. But you're talking to the anti's. Ever talked to those who are still faithful members? This board has been all over JoshuaK's behind for studying anti-mormon sites for his information. Should'nt the same hold true for you?

Don't even try to compare them to the Mormon polygamist. Polygamy was alright in the 1800's but it was outlawed and the church recognizes that. Maybe you should too.

The comparison holds true. Many people viewed Joseph Smith Jun like they do Warren Jeffs. A sick, perverse, sex maniac.

Joseph Smith didn't force his wives to marry him or force any of the other women to marry any of the men.

No, but he did promise them a better eternal glory. And he did marry other men's wives while they were out on missions to England. Is that somehow more justified?

[boyando]

I kind of skiped over most of the post. The post that I did read were pretty predictable. Nothing wrong with that, I just find it boring.

I, in no way, wan't to live the polygamy life style and can in no way defend it, when a Prophet of the lord say's that we will no longer practice it. I have met a few practicing polygamest, through different jobs I have worked over the years. Most of them that I have spent time with, are for the most part, are pretty nice people. Yah that's what I said, pretty nice people.

What Jeff's did kicked him way out of nice people catagory into sick and preverse.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Allmosthumble