sealing cancelation?

[stupidmortalman]

ok this is my story i was married for thirteen years. we were sealed on our one year aniversary. I only returened to the temple a few times after that. I have served in the military and in desert storm and the war in iraq. I have some very deep emotional scars from desert storm. and some things I just couldnt get over. I new there was no way i could ever go any where but hell. this was always a block for me when it came to the church. I loved my wife but was not the best husband. i loved my four children but was not the best dad. I never physically cheated on my wife. until i came home from iraq in 2005. still to this date i do not know why. I recevied oral sex from a prostitute.(I had never done this before even when i was in germany and most of my friends would do this on a montly basis.) I did not tell my wife or anyone. I was living in hell as i was so ashamed. our marriage became very rocky as there were problems between me and her family in finacial matters. I quit going to family events as i could only feel anger towards them for taking advantage of me. I was receving counsling for ptsd and was finally on some medication that was helping me with anger problems. Later i started contacting a old friend that had recently been divorced and we talked about our similar experiences. this was strikly platonic in nature. but still not aporpriate. my wife found out and acused me of having a affair. after a will I finally confided to her about the prostitute. i went to the bishop. we tried to work thinks out. she would not accept the fact that this was not the only time it had happened. she filled for divorce. that was very emotinally hard on me. she hired a atorney that is very good at making sure there is no recocilation. and slapped me with a no contact order. this turned my life upside down. i was not emotionaly stable and was suicidal. i reached back out to my friend and there was a lot of comfort in that. unfortantly we met a few times and one one ocasion. we crossed the line. there was penile penatration. but i stopped as i realized what i was doing. i went back to the bishop and repented. I was disfellowshiped. I became very active and really learned what the attonement is about. I did things alot of things to make my spouses life better. but she still wanted a divorce. she was very bitter. I did not know that by me agreeing to a piece meal divorce that we would actually be divorced with out going to court. I was stunned to find out one day that we were. I made amends to her family and have worked very hard to ensure her that i still care for her. I am now a better father as i cherish the time with my children. but she now is engaged to be married with a guy who is only been single for 3 weeks. and they are wanting a temple marriage. I am against it as i belive that we could have worked thru our problems. but at no time did she give it a chance. I have been in good standing with the church for almost a year. I feel that may be once on the other side of the veil that we could see past our mortal problems and still enjoy eternaty together. I would like any assistance or advice on this matter. as it ways heavilly onmy mind. I care for her still. thanks

[john doe]

I don't have answers for you, but there are some things to consider:

1. You can check with your bishop on this, but I don't believe she can get a sealing cancellation without your permission, especially if you are in good standing with the church.

2. Do you really want to be sealed for eternity to someone who doesn't want to be sealed to you?

3. I don't believe that God will force 2 people to be together who do not want to be sealed to each other.

[RescueMom]

I must be the only one who thinks that if I truly loved someone and they wanted out of a sealing to me, and felt I could not be that person they wanted to spend forever with, that I would grant them the petition of cancellation.

Yes it would hurt, but if I really loved someone, I would want their happiness to come first and if that meant having me out of the picture...I would bow out gracefully.

But this is just my own feelings and thoughts.

Of course I don't think of HF and Jesus as being so cruel as to say I couldn't enter into another eternal marriage in the next lifetime, especially if I had lived up to my covenants, or had repented of sins I had committed and was back in good standing.

I guess I am just that way.

[classylady]

It sounds like your ex-wife has moved on. It's time to let her go. And as RescueMom says, "bow out gracefully." She doesn't need permission from you, but when she does request the sealing cancellation you will be asked to write a letter to the First Presidency stating your side of things.

There are consequences to our actions, even if we repent and are forgiven. It sounds like infidelity was a "deal breaker" to your ex-wife. I know that it would be in my own marriage, no matter what the circumstances or reasoning behind the infidelity. I'm glad to hear that you have repented and are a better husband/father than you were before. I know that the Lord is pleased with your repentance. It will be hard to let go of someone you love. But, from your ex-wife's point of view, she has moved on, and she obviously doesn't see any reconciliation in this life or the next.

[Juan_P]

....to ensure her that i still care for her. I am now a better father as i cherish the time with my children. but she now is engaged to be married with a guy who is only been single for 3 weeks. and they are wanting a temple marriage. I am against it as i belive that we could have worked thru our problems. but at no time did she give it a chance. I have been in good standing with the church for almost a year. I feel that may be once on the other side of the veil that we could see past our mortal problems and still enjoy eternaty together. I would like any assistance or advice on this matter. as it ways heavilly onmy mind. I care for her still. thanks

Bro, when I read here "she still wants a divorce" I thought there must be other reasons apart from the prostitute for wanting divorce. But then again some women never get over a prostitute visit by their husband because they see it always as dirty and not cold sex only.

Then reading on that the other guy has been single for 3 weeks made me think "they aren't going to last" .. stats on 2nd marriages are worst than first marriages with some 75% or thereabouts ending in divorce too.

So what can you do here? and what advice? ....I'd start concentrating on being a good dad to the kids but paying only what the law requires to her. ie being strict with child support so she realises what the financial consequences of divorce are. Second, you will be asked to submit a letter addressed to president Monson conserning her application for sealing cancelation. In that letter you need to minimize the wrongs, the hooker and affair, just admit to it and that's it, say in one small paragraph, then expand on the reasons why you think you were resolving the problems. What you say here is good for the letter : you are in good standing in the church, now for more than a year, you believe you could've worked through the problems but she didn't give you that chance, PTSD did affect your marriage, separation from her during the war years also caused problems etc etc Your sentence: " I feel that may be once on the other side of the veil that we could see past our mortal problems and still enjoy eternaty together." is excellent and must be included in the letter to president monson because it shows that you have an eternal view of marriage and that you are willing to wait to solve things completely.

Wish you all the best...

[Gwen]

I'm sorry you are going through this. To speak plainly, it sounds like her mind is made up and you need to focus on your relationship with your children now instead of her.

She does not need your permission to get sealed again. You will get a chance to write a letter but that letter will not be the deciding factor on what the first presidency does. Just be honest and let the lord direct them.

I would be very concerned for my children's safety with her getting into such a quick marriage. I'd also be curious about the time line. If he's only been single 3 weeks then that is presumably the duration of the relationship. That is not enough time to prepare for marriage (especially one involving step families). There may be some legal action you can take to delay the marriage. I'm not saying this so you can "save" your relationship with her but to protect your children (some states also have a rule that you can not remarry before 1 yr following a divorce). If the relationship is more solid than a 3 week relationship can be then obviously there was an affair going on and they are not worthy to go to the temple.

Your focus needs to be on your relationship with your children and their safety. Do not interferer with your ex moving on if it does not pose a real risk to the kids. Let her have her life. It's time for you to move on.

[Peanutterrier2009]

So I have a Question??? My husband is sealed to another women. She has remarried and concieved a child out of wed lock. She now appears to be unhappy in her current marriage as well. I suspect she is somehow counting on the seal between my husband and her, in some twisted sort of way. To me, this is unexceptable and I feel she needs to move on in this area of her life too. She can not get right with the Church and return to the Temple, as I understand, until the seal is broken with my husband. She and my husband have a son, but that's all they have together. My husband dislikes this woman intensely!!! He is inclined to keep her from ever sealing to her current husband because, he's still a bit bitter about the cheating and pain she caused him. On the other hand, my husband and I are making plans to seal in the Temple in June. We have been married for a year, we dated for four years and were engaged for a year before that. I was not a member when we married, but was baptized in April of this year. I will be going to the Temple this coming April or May. He has been divorced for 8 years now and his Ex has been remarried for more than 2 and a half years and has a 2 year old daughter with her current husband. They married shortly after they found out she was with child. David has a 14year old son that is sealed to his Ex and him. Can my hubby break his seal with his EX without her consent? Would this allow her to get right with her current husband, if she ever choose to do so? I am encouraging him to break the seal and give his Ex the opportunity to repent, get her life staightened out and return to the Temple with her current husband. How will all this effect my step son? Who will the son be sealed to? If she is unworthy, does she have to consent to anything regarding the boy? What does my husband have to do to break his previous seal? Dave is a good man. I know he really does not want to punish his Ex in anyway. He just talks and I think he'd rather see everyone right.

[Windseeker]

Your concern for her spiritual well-being seems a little contrived imho. I think anyone who breaks the sealing out of spite when it's unnecessary is going to have to answer for it. In my own situation I'm going to leave it to he who see's and know's all thing. He has a little better vantage than I do.

I believe it's stuff like this will be worked out during the millenium. If his ex wants to re-marry in the temple then she will need to break the current sealing.

I don't think couples or children have any guarantee that their parents or children or spouses will be sealed to them in the eternities unless it's mutually desired. It would kind of turn free agency on it's head. So those who abuse their spouse or children won't have any claim whatsoever in the Eternities no matter what ordinances they did.

[Gwen]

So I have a Question??? My husband is sealed to another women. She has remarried and concieved a child out of wed lock. She now appears to be unhappy in her current marriage as well. I suspect she is somehow counting on the seal between my husband and her, in some twisted sort of way. To me, this is unexceptable and I feel she needs to move on in this area of her life too. She can not get right with the Church and return to the Temple, as I understand, until the seal is broken with my husband. She and my husband have a son, but that's all they have together. My husband dislikes this woman intensely!!! He is inclined to keep her from ever sealing to her current husband because, he's still a bit bitter about the cheating and pain she caused him. On the other hand, my husband and I are making plans to seal in the Temple in June. We have been married for a year, we dated for four years and were engaged for a year before that. I was not a member when we married, but was baptized in April of this year. I will be going to the Temple this coming April or May. He has been divorced for 8 years now and his Ex has been remarried for more than 2 and a half years and has a 2 year old daughter with her current husband. They married shortly after they found out she was with child. David has a 14year old son that is sealed to his Ex and him. Can my hubby break his seal with his EX without her consent? Would this allow her to get right with her current husband, if she ever choose to do so? I am encouraging him to break the seal and give his Ex the opportunity to repent, get her life staightened out and return to the Temple with her current husband. How will all this effect my step son? Who will the son be sealed to? If she is unworthy, does she have to consent to anything regarding the boy? What does my husband have to do to break his previous seal? Dave is a good man. I know he really does not want to punish his Ex in anyway. He just talks and I think he'd rather see everyone right.

Your husband can not stop her from being resealed if she is worthy. As things stand now he has no claim upon the blessings of that sealing and neither does she (in other words they can not be together in the next life).

The sealing is a potential of a blessing. If A then B. A being the covenants you are supposed to keep. B being an eternal marriage. They have divorced and are not living those covenants therefore there is no A so there can not be a B.

When getting a sealing clearance or cancellation they do ask for a letter from the ex. That letter is not for "permission" and it does not decide if or when that person can be sealed. The letter is for perspective and to give the person a chance to present their 2 cents. (Personally I think it also has a lot to do with presenting a healing repenting/forgiving situation for the couple so they can move on to healthier relationships. Dealing with baggage type stuff. But that's my opinion.)

Your husband would request a sealing clearance. If/when the ex is worthy and desiring to be resealed then she would request a sealing cancellation. A child's sealing to parents always remains in effect. He will still be sealed to his mother and father (again all things are contingent on keeping the covenant). Your son is the only one that can break his sealing covenant and that is by not living worthy to claim the blessings of his covenants.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Gwen

[Peanutterrier2009]

@WINDSEEKER; Wow, I don't think I understand... Sounds like you're almost acussing me of being sort of vindictive in my thinking. As I understand it, she can't break the seal. Only David can do this. I'm a new member so, I don't quite understand how all this works as yet. I'm not trying to be hurtful in anyway. I would, that all of us would be Temple worthy and happy. Bec won't even go to church anymore because, she feels so far out of line now. She's not a friend but, she's not my enemy either. I just wanted to help her, if possible. The boy is being exposed to , verbal and emotional abuse at the step dads hands. They are both drinking and doing all sorts of things right now because, they are not really in the Church. I understand this. David was envolved in the wrong things too. I know it was very difficult for my husband, when he could not go to the Temple and he felt outside the mainstream fellowship. He started drinking, lost faith and was bearly a member. A very very good Bishop brought me into the Church and has seen to our growth and David's repentance and restoration over the past year. David is so happy now! He is a full member with priesthood duties and we are a happy family. We want to do the right thing, that's all.

[Peanutterrier2009]

Thanks Gwen. I think I get it now. It's all about our choices and obedience to our covenants.:-)

[Windseeker]

I apologize for thinking it sounded a little vindictive. I had a wife leave me and my 4 kids. I've forgiven her and hope the best for her. She lost her way and has found her way back. Like you it was due to caring members and a Christlike Bishop. I would like to see her married to someone else and sealed in the temple but that's up to her. There is some confusion as I remarried in the temple. My spouse is unsure what will happen with the kids in the next life. All I know is they are sealed to me and I to her. In mixed and blended families I think we need to trust our Heavenly Father and I personally don't see the need to try to force something when "..we see through a glass darkly " 1Corinth13:12.

I'm glad you are getting prepared for the temple and I wish you the best.

[stupidmortalman]

I would like to thank all of you for your comments. I have spoken with my Bishop and have a apointment with him soon. I am praying for the holy ghost to guide me. Thanks again for all your responses and for being very unjudgemental.

[Peanutterrier2009]

@ Windseeker; Thank you! It is a very difficult issue to navigate the blended family road. We are doing our best and are so very greatful to our Bishop. He has become our dear friend, a consentant guide and advisor. It amazes me how he seems so mature and wise. He is the same age as I am and I feel 20 years his junior. David is not quite ready to wish his Ex all the best. He doesn't wish her ill, he just wants her out of his life now. His son is still suffering a great deal and David just wants it all to stop now. His EX has bipolar and she won't stay on medication. It is so difficult to deal with all this and having the boy trapped in the middle is even more heart rending. We want the boy to come and stay with us but, his mom wants the child support. The boy has told us his mom doesn't really want him there, she just wants the money. The Bishop has reported the abuse to CPS but, they are moving slowly. Thanks for your comments.

[Juan_P]

So I have a Question??? My husband is sealed to another women. She has remarried and concieved a child out of wed lock. She now appears to be unhappy in her current marriage as well. I suspect she is somehow counting on the seal between my husband and her, in some twisted sort of way.

If she becomes Temple worthy again and if that sealing remains in tact, then it will remain in the next life even if the couple decide to live apart. This because polygamy, or celestial polygamy, is still viable in the next life according to D&C 132. Only the practice in mortality has been discontinued since the two manifestos.

To me, this is unexceptable and I feel she needs to move on in this area of her life too. She can not get right with the Church and return to the Temple, as I understand, until the seal is broken with my husband.

I would also encourage her to move on and find someone else. However it isn't correct to say that she can't return to the Temple until the seal is broken. If she goes to church, repents of whatever there is to repent, pays tithing etc they will give her a recomend again and she will enter the Temple as a woman still sealed to your husband although not in practice or not as a living together couple.

On the other hand, my husband and I are making plans to seal in the Temple in June. We have been married for a year, we dated for four years and were engaged for a year before that. I was not a member when we married, but was baptized in April of this year. I will be going to the Temple this coming April or May. He has been divorced for 8 years now and his Ex has been remarried for more than 2 and a half years and has a 2 year old daughter with her current husband. They married shortly after they found out she was with child. David has a 14year old son that is sealed to his Ex and him. Can my hubby break his seal with his EX without her consent?

I think we are mixing issues here. A man can't break or cancel a sealing, he can only obtain a clearance to be sealed again to someone else ie you here

Also you need to be very careful with the paperwork in seeking a clearance. I know of a similar case where the ex wife was excommunicated but they denied the clearance based on her written letter accusing him of domestic violance. However the couple reapplied 4 years later and then they were granted the clearance.

Would this allow her to get right with her current husband, if she ever choose to do so? I am encouraging him to break the seal and give his Ex the opportunity to repent, get her life staightened out and return to the Temple with her current husband.

Again he can't 'break the seal'. she can repent and go to the Temple with her husband, even be sealed to him after seeking a cancellation but that's up to her to sort out separately. Note women optain cancellations while men optain a clearance

How will all this effect my step son? Who will the son be sealed to? If she is unworthy, does she have to consent to anything regarding the boy? What does my husband have to do to break his previous seal? Dave is a good man. I know he really does not want to punish his Ex in anyway. He just talks and I think he'd rather see everyone right.

Children will always be sealed to their biological parents unless they are adopted or some other conditions listed in the handbook are met, like they reach 21 and wish to be sealed to their step parent (going by memory here but the list is clear in the handbook) However to be sealed to parents means that they are in a line going back to Adam and Eve -which obviously isn't complete yet- and they have access to certain blessings like eternal parents so it isn't that critical who they are sealed to. If his biological mother isn't worthy to be in that line someone else will take her place like a step mother or a grandparents. By the way if the boy is 17 now, well then he decide for himself what influence his mother has on his life if sealed or not.

[garryw]

I am against it as i belive that we could have worked thru our problems.

Been there done that. When my wife filed for divorce in my mind I figured we were still sealed so in the long run we'd end up together. That mentality didn't last long. Now I thank heaven every day that she left me and look forward to the time if she ever wants a cancellation. My letter would say "I totally agree with this."

So how you feel today may not be how you feel in a year or two.

[Gwen]

If she becomes Temple worthy again and if that sealing remains in tact, then it will remain in the next life even if the couple decide to live apart. This because polygamy, or celestial polygamy, is still viable in the next life according to D&C 132. Only the practice in mortality has been discontinued since the two manifestos.

As many know this is one of my soap box issues lol and I have to correct this. The only way the sealing is in tact is if they remarry and live a righteous marriage. If they never remarry they have no claim upon the blessing of the covenant which is an eternal marriage.

If she repents individually and becomes worthy of an eternal marriage then she and god and whomever she is to be with will work that out but there is no promise that it will be the man she divorced.

The "celestial polygamy" you refer to is valid when you speak of a couple that was sealed, lived a righteous marriage that was worthy of an eternal blessing, one of the ppl dies and the living spouse remarries/resealed and lives a second righteous marriage until death. Then both of those sealings would have claim upon the eternal marriage blessing. Divorce is very different and destroys your potential at claim upon the blessing.

The reason there is a sealing clearance vs cancellation is that the sealing covenant is a triangle. Each person covenants to each other (the base) and they also covenant individually with god (the sides). When you divorce you break the bottom side of the triangle but you still have the option to keeping your individual covenant to god. A cancellation removes all of the covenants. So to protect the spouses from having someone else "rob them of blessings" they do clearances any time it's possible. This allows the person to claim blessings between them and god.

[RescueMom]

Gwen

I so wish you could tell all of this to a friend of mine who is sure her sealing is in place, even though her ex husband left her, left the church, is a member of the catholic church now and wants nothing to do with her or the church. She says she prays that he will come back to her (after 12 years) and is sure that the sealing is in place and that in the next life time he will repent and all will be well. She doesn't account for his sins of abuse and adultry or that he has free will.

She is also afraid if she remarries and asks for a sealing cancellation she will lose her children.

It's frustrating.

In effect she has damned herself, yet she prays she has a good and righteous husband.

It's really frustrating.

[Juan_P]

As many know this is one of my soap box issues lol and I have to correct this. The only way the sealing is in tact is if they remarry and live a righteous marriage. If they never remarry they have no claim upon the blessing of the covenant which is an eternal marriage.

Well.....if we only look at mortality then maybe, but still its by a different authority and power plus a sealing actually marries for time and all eternity and then at the end 'seals' the ordinance, so a civil marriage and a marriage done in the Temple are different things. If you read the ordinance card in any Temple, if they let you, you will see that it is clearly a separate marriage to a civil one. But what I'd say you're ignoring is both time in the spirit world and the millenium. Yes she does have to become worthy first before the spirit world but, if she does during her lifetime, D&C 132 promises exaltation to her who was sealed. And then if they reconcile in the spirit world or millenium, then they will default back to the sealing done here on earth and wouldn't need another wedding or sealing. Remember that there will be marriages performed during the millenium here on earth. If she became worthy now but they don't reconcile then you have two people who have access to some of the sealing blessings but wont be a married couple and then again, during the millenium that will need sorting out.

If she repents individually and becomes worthy of an eternal marriage then she and god and whomever she is to be with will work that out but there is no promise that it will be the man she divorced.

However the sealing will still be in force and current if they are both repentant and worthy then. Look, even when an adulterer repent fully a general authority will only 'restore the blessings of the sealing' because that sealing is still in force. That person, excommunicated and rebaptized doesn't need to go back to the Temple for a new endowment or a new sealing. It may be that she will marry someone else, and has every right to do so, but it could also be that she stays sealed to this divorced husband.

The "celestial polygamy" you refer to is valid when you speak of a couple that was sealed, lived a righteous marriage...one of the ppl dies and the living spouse remarries/resealed and lives a second righteous marriage until death. Then both of those sealings would have claim upon the eternal marriage blessing. Divorce is very dhifferent and destroys your potential at claim upon the blessing.

one of the ppl? people? No, if the wife dies and the man remarries and is sealed to that second wife, then you have a man with two wives in heaven. Women will only have one husband unless the revelations/doctrines changes and we go back to polyandry days.

The reason there is a sealing clearance vs cancellation is that the sealing covenant is a triangle..... Each person covenants to each other (the base) and they also covenant individually with god (the sides).

I disagree. Pres Hinkley introduced the clearance for men because they saw that some men were divorcing one woman one week and then getting sealed to a second the next week, the implication being that they were dating the second wife before the divorce was final. That's why there is a clearance process for men now, ie because some seemed to be abusing the system and they want to make sure everything is OK with the first wife too.

the triangle example I agree with in general but the clearance was done for another reason. And it could change any day if rumours from HQ are correct because they are becoming now somewhat overwhelmed by the amount of applications for cancellations and clearances.

-Oh, I forgot the example about divorce/sealing. Say you have a divorced couple who were sealed before and decide to remarry each other again, then the marriage date changes on their record but the same sealing stays in tact and nothing changes nor do they require a new 'sealing' for that second marriage because the divorce was just by a civil authority which God doens't always recognize.

[Gwen]

Well.....if we only look at mortality then maybe, but still its by a different authority and power plus a sealing actually marries for time and all eternity and then at the end 'seals' the ordinance, so a civil marriage and a marriage done in the Temple are different things. If you read the ordinance card in any Temple, if they let you, you will see that it is clearly a separate marriage to a civil one. But what I'd say you're ignoring is both time in the spirit world and the millenium. Yes she does have to become worthy first before the spirit world but, if she does during her lifetime, D&C 132 promises exaltation to her who was sealed. And then if they reconcile in the spirit world or millenium, then they will default back to the sealing done here on earth and wouldn't need another wedding or sealing. Remember that there will be marriages performed during the millenium here on earth. If she became worthy now but they don't reconcile then you have two people who have access to some of the sealing blessings but wont be a married couple and then again, during the millenium that will need sorting out.

Yes the sealing and the civil marriage ceremony are 2 different things. However, they are connected, part of the sealing ceremony is to be civilly married. If you are not civilly married you can not live the sealing covenant, if you can not live the covenant then you have no promise on the blessings.

The key (and you state this yourself, I put it in bold) is if they reconcile. Which is what I said. They must make up, re marry civilly and live a righteous marriage for there to be any claim upon the blessings (eternal marriage). If the lord allows that reconciliation to take place in the millennium or the spirit world is up to him, I know of no such statements. However, sometimes couples that were married once, divorced and died single can be sealed by their children so there must be some assumption that they may still want claim upon that in the next life. but those details are for god to work out.

One of the issues other churches have with us is the focus on works. We do believe in works. We don't get "saved" today and have a promise no matter what for eternity. Every covenant we make in this church is a potential not a guarantee. We promise to..... God promises to..... If you don't keep your end of the deal you have no promise. The promise of the sealing ordinance is eternal marriage. If you don't have a righteous marriage here you have no promise. There are ppl that will die married and will not have an eternal marriage, their marriage here was not righteous.

As an interesting side note that also supports this connection is that the law of chastity (which you covenant to in the temple before a sealing can be performed) is that sexual relations are between someone you are legally and lawfully married. Civil marriage. So if a couple is married, gets sealed, divorces, and then has sex they are breaking the law of chastity even though they have not gotten a sealing cancellation. Being sealed isn't enough, there are mortal requirements.

However the sealing will still be in force and current if they are both repentant and worthy then. Look, even when an adulterer repent fully a general authority will only 'restore the blessings of the sealing' because that sealing is still in force. That person, excommunicated and rebaptized doesn't need to go back to the Temple for a new endowment or a new sealing. It may be that she will marry someone else, and has every right to do so, but it could also be that she stays sealed to this divorced husband.

If the couple is not married there is no sealing to "restore". I find it tends to be predominately men that cling to this false thinking that they can divorce and still have claim upon the woman in the next life. The idea that a man can marry/get sealed, divorce, and then do it two or three more times and then have claim upon all those women in the next life is degrading and not doctrinal. He had his chance and he blew it. If the women are worthy of the blessings of the sealing they will be given the chance to be with someone that will love and appreciate them. Being forced to spend eternity married to someone that abused you in this life is not celestial glory, some might even say it's hell. How is that a reward and a blessing?

The potential of the temple can not be realized and blessings received until the relationship has been sealed by the holy spirit of promise. Until then it's something you must work for. The spirit will not seal the ordinance if you are not married and can not/will not live the covenant. If the spirit has not sealed the ordinance (which is not done in the temple) then there is no eternal marriage. I'm not sure why that's so hard for some to grasp.

one of the ppl? people? No, if the wife dies and the man remarries and is sealed to that second wife, then you have a man with two wives in heaven. Women will only have one husband unless the revelations/doctrines changes and we go back to polyandry days.

From my understanding women have been, can and are sealed by proxy to more than one man. For example, women who started the trek across the plains with a husband they loved dearly. He died on the journey and she remarried when she got out west and also loved him dearly. They die before receiving their temple ordinances and the family does her work sealing her to both men. How that is worked out in the eternities is up to god, but bottom line is she is sealed to more than one man.

I disagree. Pres Hinkley introduced the clearance for men because they saw that some men were divorcing one woman one week and then getting sealed to a second the next week, the implication being that they were dating the second wife before the divorce was final. That's why there is a clearance process for men now, ie because some seemed to be abusing the system and they want to make sure everything is OK with the first wife too.

the triangle example I agree with in general but the clearance was done for another reason. And it could change any day if rumours from HQ are correct because they are becoming now somewhat overwhelmed by the amount of applications for cancellations and clearances.

Disagree all you like. The reason the paperwork process was designed doesn't change the doctrine. Paperwork processes get changed all the time to meet the needs of our changing world. The doctrines don't change. No one will be forced to be with another, it doesn't matter the "work" that was performed. If you divorce you do not keep your covenant. If you don't keep your covenant you have no promise. Cancel the sealing or not you have no claim. Sealings are not automatically canceled at divorce to allow ppl to keep their individual covenant not trap them with someone they can not live a celestial marriage with.

We have to remember we claim blessings not ppl. If a couple divorces and does not cancel the sealing, they both die and have properly repented to be worthy of an eternal marriage but never reconciled they may claim an eternal marriage, not their ex. If a couple divorces and when they die only one is worthy of a sealing then they can claim an eternal marriage, you can not claim the person. One good spouse will not get both into heaven. They will have an opportunity for an eternal marriage to someone else that is also worthy to claim the blessing.

-Oh, I forgot the example about divorce/sealing. Say you have a divorced couple who were sealed before and decide to remarry each other again, then the marriage date changes on their record but the same sealing stays in tact and nothing changes nor do they require a new 'sealing' for that second marriage because the divorce was just by a civil authority which God doens't always recognize.

God obviously recognizes what happens civilly or the law of chastity would be no sexual relations to someone you are not sealed to. If God didn't care what happened civilly there would have been no fuss over prop 8 (we don't allow gay sealing so who cares what the law does?). The reason the sealing date does not change (or the sealing does not need to be repeated) after the remarriage is for the same reason we don't have to be re-baptized every time we sin. That process is part of the repentance process. A couple gets married/sealed and makes a covenant, they make mistakes and divorce and don't live that covenant, they repent/reconcile and start to live the covenant again (get re married). At death they are living the covenant and have claim upon that blessing. You can not fully repent to reclaim a sealing with a specific person unless you are civilly married to them. You can repent in many other ways and have claim upon many other blessings (those you make individually) but you have no claim upon the person.

Judgement doesn't happen until the end of this life for a reason. As long as you are living there is time to fix things and still reclaim lost blessings due to sin.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Gwen

[Juan_P]

There's a lot here, most I agree with you, some not. ie true no one will be forced to live with someone they wanted to divorce and don't like, nor forced to be sealed to someone who abused them. The millenium will inevitably fix up many of these situations because there may not be time or opportunity here in mortality due to kids or illness or other problems.

However some I know is incorrect. A civil divorce is irrelevant when it comes to Temple marriages. What happens in the US, Canada and some other nations is that the state government accepts the Temple ceremony as enough for a legally binding marriage but it isn't vice-verse with the church since in countries where the Temple marriage isn't accepted members are actually married twice, civil before the government authority and temple before god.

....However, they are connected, part of the sealing ceremony is to be civilly married. If you are not civilly married you can not live the sealing covenant, if you can not live the covenant then you have no promise on the blessings.

Remember that the reason for the second manifesto was because men still married via Temple only on the high seas or in Mexico to avoid the civil marriage and its laws. So no, you don't need to be civilly married to live the sealing coveanant, they are two different concepts and laws.

The key (and you state this yourself, I put it in bold) is if they reconcile. Which is what I said. They must make up, re marry civilly and live a righteous marriage for there to be any claim upon the blessings (eternal marriage).

Not if that reconcilliation is in the millenium. Then, the sealing done in mortality will be the marriage by default.

If the lord allows that reconciliation to take place in the millennium or the spirit world is up to him, I know of no such statements. However, sometimes couples that were married once, divorced and died single can be sealed by their children so there must be some assumption that they may still want claim upon that in the next life. but those details are for god to work out.

And women can be sealed to all the husbands they had on earth so that the children can be sealed to both parents, in geneology, where necessary. The assumption is that the woman will then stay with only one husband but the sealing lines and family lines need to be established all the way up to Adam and Eve, so sealing women to many husbands may be the only way to accomplish this.

One of the issues other churches have with us is the focus on works. We do believe in works. We don't get "saved" today and have a promise no matter what for eternity. Every covenant we make in this church is a potential not a guarantee. We promise to..... God promises to..... If you don't keep your end of the deal you have no promise. The promise of the sealing ordinance is eternal marriage. If you don't have a righteous marriage here you have no promise. There are ppl that will die married and will not have an eternal marriage, their marriage here was not righteous.

Yes, but there is repentance and change. Repentance is the key. Also note 132:19 one can commit any sin except two and, if one repents, still enter exaltation ie eternal marriage after going through the spirit world and then the millenium. Also note 132:7 'all covenants, contracts, oaths, vows, performances, connections ..or expectations' end at death if they are not entered and sealed by the Holy spirit. To me that means that a divorce granted by a civil court will also end at death unless there is an accompaning cancellation by the appropriate authority ie First Presidency done either in mortality now or later during the millenium, which will also be on earth.

As an interesting side note that also supports this connection is that the law of chastity (which you covenant to in the temple before a sealing can be performed) is that sexual relations are between someone you are legally and lawfully married. Civil marriage. So if a couple is married, gets sealed, divorces, and then has sex they are breaking the law of chastity even though they have not gotten a sealing cancellation. Being sealed isn't enough, there are mortal requirements.

singles also covenant that. But no if they are still sealed we wouldn't discipline them but tell them to go get a civil marriage somewhere but they wouldn't be breaking God's law of chastity since they are married for God. Look, up until very recently, the church had to accept some similar cases because there wasn't divorce in most of latin america. So what members did to 'get sealed' was to go to a neighboring country and marry there, while still married legally to someone else in their home nation ie commit bigamy, because there was no divorce, and then use that neighbouring country's marriage to go to the Temple and be sealed for time and all eternity. Then they'd return home where they are still legally and lawfully married to someone else but sleeping with someone else, the second spouse. It was a problem for the church, pres Kimball complained many times about how intransigent government officials were (in his bio based on his diaries) regarding divorce, but they couldn't do anything so had to accept the status quo. The church required that civil marriage certificate, from a neigboring country, to avoid any legal hassles with the host nation although it was just sybolic and not very legally binding.

If the couple is not married there is no sealing to "restore".

Sealings are never 'restored' only the blessings of a sealing can be restored.

I find it tends to be predominately men that cling to this false thinking that they can divorce and still have claim upon the woman in the next life. The idea that a man can marry/get sealed, divorce, and then do it two or three more times and then have claim upon all those women in the next life is degrading and not doctrinal. He had his chance and he blew it. If the women are worthy of the blessings of the sealing they will be given the chance to be with someone that will love and appreciate them. Being forced to spend eternity married to someone that abused you in this life is not celestial glory, some might even say it's hell. How is that a reward and a blessing?

Yes, most men have a mistaken view of the sealing ordinance. It isn't a 'possesion' thing as some think. The couple has to work to reach exaltation. however the issue was the woman who's husband married someone else and wanted to be sealed to her. He will be able to eventually but the first will still have access to all the blessing from her sealing even if she divorced him, unless she has it cancelled and marries someone else. but off course no one will be forced to spend eternity married to someone they don't like or want, hence the purpose of the millenium, to fix up these issues and others like geneology, and prep for the celestial kingdom.

The potential of the temple can not be realized and blessings received until the relationship has been sealed by the holy spirit of promise. Until then it's something you must work for. The spirit will not seal the ordinance if you are not married and can not/will not live the covenant. If the spirit has not sealed the ordinance (which is not done in the temple) then there is no eternal marriage. I'm not sure why that's so hard for some to grasp.

True, D&C 132 makes that clear too. Every ordinance depends on the Spirit recognizing it and giving testimony of the correctness of it. A marriage in the Temple and its sealing is no different. The Spirit does have to 'seal' the ordinance as you say.

From my understanding women have been, can and are sealed by proxy to more than one man. For example, women who started the trek across the plains with a husband they loved dearly. He died on the journey and she remarried when she got out west and also loved him dearly. They die before receiving their temple ordinances and the family does her work sealing her to both men. How that is worked out in the eternities is up to god, but bottom line is she is sealed to more than one man

.

Yeah, I remember only one widow being granted a cancellation and she was then sealed to her second husband. But its rare. I remember a few more who applied but were denied for being widows. The First Presidency decides this and only they can say if there's a criteria (doubt it) or its just the revelation in each case (more likely) And as above, today in geneology we frequently seal women to all the husbands they had in life so that the children can complete their lines. But the doctrine is that she will be with only one husband in eternity.

Disagree all you like.

OK

The reason the paperwork process was designed doesn't change the doctrine

.

True , agreed.

Paperwork processes get changed all the time to meet the needs of our changing world. The doctrines don't change. No one will be forced to be with another, it doesn't matter the "work" that was performed.

True. Agreed

If you divorce you do not keep your covenant. If you don't keep your covenant you have no promise. Cancel the sealing or not you have no claim. Sealings are not automatically canceled at divorce to allow ppl to keep their individual covenant not trap them with someone they can not live a celestial marriage with.

Well....no. There are innocent victims of divorce too. I know one couple where the man walked out, divorced and remarried civilly overseas, had a baby girl and then asked for a clearance. It was denied based on the first wife's letter, who wanted reconciliation. Once he found out that the prophet didn't approve a clearance and why, he left his second wife and daughter, returned home and reconciled with his first wife and they are still together. This happened in the mid '90s. So his divorce in another jurisdiction didn't break the covenant nor did they need to remarry again (so maybe its a bad example )

God obviously recognizes what happens civilly or the law of chastity would be no sexual relations to someone you are not sealed to.

No, law of chastity is for any recognized marriage, before God or before the government only as the basic unit of society. However, try asking a convert couple what the 'feeling' was or if there is a difference when having sex as just a civilly married couple or a temple married couple. Those I have heard talk about this issue say that intimate relations are different, more pure, after the sealing ordinance. Why? I don't know but it does tell you something about the differences between civil and temple marriages.

If God didn't care what happened civilly there would have been no fuss over prop 8

He does care. It's the basic unit of society. But a Temple marriage is a different thing altogether and can't be broken just by a civil divorce because its the wrong authority.

I think I've written too much now. I hope it clears up where we disagree and where we agree. I think the main issue is that for you a divorce ends things for a celestial couple; I say its a different authority and it doesn't end everything just suspends a few minor things for a while but not forever necessarily and there is time for change. The millenium should always be kept in mind when discussing eternal matters, such as Temple marriages, since it is there were we will do the final preparations for the celestial kingdom.

Judgement doesn't happen until the end of this life for a reason. As long as you are living there is time to fix things and still reclaim lost blessings due to sin.

One judgement happens then. The main one will be at the end of the millenium, which in the Temple is symbolized by talking to the Lord at the veil. Plus in several places in D&C the Lord says "whether in life or in death, it is the same for me" , meaning that there are some chances to change for some people in the spirit world too especially people like soldiers who die young in battle or teens who drown accidently,they also need chances to change and be tested and progress even if they are in the spirit world.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Juan_P
Clear up confusing sentence

[Maureen]

...Well....no. There are innocent victims of divorce too. I know one couple where the man walked out, divorced and remarried civilly overseas, had a baby girl and then asked for a clearance. It was denied based on the first wife's letter, who wanted reconciliation. Once he found out that the prophet didn't approve a clearance and why, he left his second wife and daughter, returned home and reconciled with his first wife and they are still together. This happened in the mid '90s. So his divorce in another jurisdiction didn't break the covenant nor did they need to remarry again here because they didn't divorce here due to costs (so maybe its a bad example )...

Is there a contradiction here with this story?

M.

[Vort]

Is there a contradiction here with this story?

I don't think so:

So his divorce in another jurisdiction didn't break the covenant nor did they need to remarry again here because they didn't divorce here due to costs

[Gwen]

ok juan_p.... lol this is just getting muddy (as in unclear not spiteful). There is a lot here but I'm only commenting on 2 things.

I think what is being missed is when things are worded wrong there is a perception of claim or being stuck with another person. Which is the impression given when someone says the sealing of divorced ppl is in effect. We both seem to be saying reconciliation is the key, if it be here or in another time/place permitted by the lord it must happen. For me I will assume if 2 ppl divorce they will not have claim upon the sealing covenant later. If they work something different out with god then good for them. A divorce seems pretty firm of a stance to me, I'll take their word for it that they (or one of them) don't want to be together.

So if there is someone that is obsessing over an ex that has left them, left the church, moved on to a new relationship, whatever they are wasting their time. That person does not want reconciliation and the sealing covenant gives the one obsessing over them no claim on them in the next life (no matter how righteous they are otherwise). If something different happens in the hereafter that is between them and god.

On another note in your first comment about the govn't recognizing the sealing as a marriage, that isn't accurate. When you get sealed you must fill out all legal paperwork before going into the sealing. The govn't does recognize the sealers (or temple pres) as having the legal authority to marry and thus they can sign the legal documents needed for a civil marriage.

In countries where the couple must fill out the civil paperwork outside the temple and then go and do the sealing ceremony that is because there are laws about marriages needing to be public not because they recognize the church sealings more or less.

When I was sealed we had to bring all the paperwork to the temple (marriage license, etc). We went to the temple president's office before the sealing, he reviewed everything and then we signed the papers in front of him and he signed as a witness. After that (which was the legal marriage) we proceeded to the things of the temple. If we had just gone and done the sealing and not sent the legal paperwork back to the state then the state would not see us as married. If the paperwork got lost we would not have been able to show our sealing certificate as proof of marriage, there is a different form you fill out that you take back to the temple pres and they sign saying they witnessed you marry on the date etc you claim and they will back date the state records when they enter the fact that you are married.

[Gwen]

I don't think so:

So his divorce in another jurisdiction didn't break the covenant nor did they need to remarry again here because they didn't divorce here due to costs

There is a contradiction. He was legally married to 2 living women, which the church does not support. I would suspect the rejection of his desire to be sealed had more to do with that than her wanting reconciliation. He needed to get his ducks in a row and they weren't. He didn't have to be remarried because he was never divorced*. He could have just as easily properly divorced the first wife, gotten that in order and then reapplied for the sealing to the second.

*if the country he was married in recognized the over seas divorce and it was properly filed with the courts then he would have been divorced. The man just didn't fill out all paperwork properly.