Been a year now and need some advice.

[John11111]

Its been a year since I found my wife had been cheating 2nd time with my brother.

We got counseling, read the books, done the marriage builders etc.

Im in a better place then I was, worked on my love busters/meeting my wifes needs.

No longer bottle up emotions till I explode. Have mini dates about everyday-activities, puzzles, walks, eating out, crafts, shopping, etc. Checklist her needs and make sure theyre met.

Things seemed to be well till 4 weeks ago I noticed a big change in her mood.

4 weeks ago my brother told me he had a girlfriend they have been dating a few weeks. I told my wife about it one day... bad idea maybe? didnt seem inappropriate to me..?

I asked about her mood change and she said she was unhappy. She still loves my brother (contacts been very limited to family events I protect her every second during those). She still thinks/misses him everyday. When she found out he had a girlfriend it made her sad "hes moved on and doesnt care about her anymore".... This hurt a lot to hear but i just listened to her.

She says she loves me and I have been doing so much for her this last year and even more so lately and that im trying so hard it makes her feel even worse.... She wants me to be happy, we have talked many times about what i needed from her to be happy.

I need her to keep house in order, I need her to get spiritually healthy again. To take care of herself. Have 0 contact with my brother. I needed her to make sure my emotional needs were met as well this is the problem area.

Sexual Fulfillment, Honesty and Openness, Domestic Support, Family commitment, physical attraction. My top 5 the last 3 she has done a wonderful job with and I have no complaints.

I wish she was more open with me I have to pry things out of her with long conversations. Honesty is something I always worry about since my trust was broken.

Sexual fulfilment is the other problem, I want to make love to my wife the more foreplay the better. I know its not realistic every day or even every other day. As it stands it happens maybe once every 2-3 weeks... when it does its more hurry up and get it over with then anything else... this is extremely frustrating. I have explained that to my wife but nothing changes.

Im trying so hard to be supportive and the best husband I can be and my wife is still unhappy still thinking about my brother she struggles just to meet my needs... it has gotten better... slowly. Shouldnt it be the other way around? me struggling and her doing all she can to make me happy and get my trust/love back?

So i guess I needed to vent a lil ask for any advice maybe some kind words or something. Im not ready to give up but I do feel a bit hopeless lately. Finding out about her feelings was a big blow.

[John11111]

Another thing should I help to dispel the memories and thoughts shes having?

Remind her that of the guilt, akwardness, loneliness she felt during the affairs?

Dispel her image of my brother, that he was the person who was willing to destroy a family with children? He used her to get what he wanted only etc?

Or should I just leave it alone and let the memories fade? I dunno if making her see the ugly side of him will help to rid her of the memories or just mess things up.

[Spartan117]

I don't know about advice for this particular situation ... but I will happily leave you as many kind words as you want. Sounds like you've earned some kind words. I don't know how I would react in those circumstances but I'm fairly certain it would make the newspaper the next day. You're a much better man than I.

[Guest mormonmusic]

It's normal for people who have had an emotional or physical affair to still yearn for their former partner. I know this because I experienced it myself after having an emotional affair after my wife met NONE of my emotional needs for over a decade -- Sexual Fulfilment, Domestic Support, Family Commitment and Admiration. I still have moments, although they are few and far between. A non-member friend of my mine had the same experience after breaking it off with a physical partner years ago.

It sounds like you are doing all the right things. She is not seeing your brother. it was good that you told her he's got a girlfriend as this will further separate her from him. He met some powerful emotional need in her at one point, and she is experiencing withdrawal symptoms from that.

Time will eventually take care of this if you can keep them apart and continue meeting her needs.

Regarding the frequency of sex -- well, I would focus on really meeting her emotional needs. I noticed you didn't list them in your opening post. Make sure you meet them really, really well and this may trigger more passion in lovemaking. Keep avoiding those Angry Outbursts.

All I can do though, is empathize with your frustration and encourage you to keep trying. I'm glad you did marriage builders. I find that's the most practical solution to a better marriage, and far better than the aftermath of a divorce in my situation.

Also, recognize that love in the marriag will ebb and flow over time depending on how much care each person takes for the other person's emotional needs. I have had periods of OK happiness dotted with periods of deep anger and frustration and depression over my wife's utter indifference to my emotional needs., particularly domestic support. That is the nature of difficult marriages -- they have peaks and valleys. I'm just thankful that over time, the valleys seem to get higher and higher, and less and less frequent.

Edited November 21, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Guest Cneve]

Amazing you can be so nice and supportive to her after what she did?

How did you handle it when you found out - nice and calm then too? Didn´t you get mad? Show her how hurt and betrayed you felt? Maybe she doesn´t realize how bad it is what she has done if you don´t make it clear?

Yes i think it should be the other way around, like you say - she should fight to get your love and trust back, and she really should forget about your brother! She should not feel sad about him meeting a new gf !!

[John11111]

Her needs are conversation, affection, family comitment, honesty, financial support in that order.

Sunday mondays we talk 2-4 hours straight each night about everything, rest of the week I plan dates or activities that we can talk putting together puzzles, crafts, making deserts, board games etc usually is great for talking and we spend at minimum an hour doing that sometimes more.

On top of that whenever she talks to me I make sure to stop whatever im doing turn around and focus on her so she knows im listening. As well as just through the day conversations we have about whatever.

Affection I hug and kiss her and tell her I love her throughout the day, I buy her flowers frequently at least 1-2 times month if I notice her flowers are wilting ill make an effort to go pick her out some more. If I see her doing something I try to help or offer to help. I do anything for her give her backrubs, massage her feet, randomly do the dishes, or get up early to get the girls off to school so she can sleep in.

I have a different schedule then her because of work so I usually go to bed a good 4-5 hours after she does on nights before work but I almost always go tuck her in and lay down with her and cuddle till she falls asleep.

Family commitment well this one is easy my daughters are the world to me and I have never had any problems with family stuff.

Honesty I dont hide anything from my wife except for negative feelings I get that pass after a bit. I try to be open and honest with my feelings without being judgemental or using the word "you" always I feel or I appreciate when.

Financial support work 40 hours a week sometimes more family has everything they need she goes shopping regularly with me and can buy whatever she wants for the most part if its within reason. We dont have the biggest house or nicest car in the world but we would rather save for retirement and do without those things this has never been a problem.

I know there is other needs but these are her top 5 and I guess I could always do more? Am I still not doing enough? When I ask her she says I am meeting all her needs. I ask her if there is anything more I could be doing or anything I should not be doing and says she doesnt know.

Im not perfect who is? I like to think that im doing pretty good though but sometimes you need someone from outside to point out the flaws you dont see.

[John11111]

cneve yes it was hard very hard especially the 1st time I cried a while I was angry I dont remember yelling. I was lost and confused I said hurtful things im sure the night isnt clear to me anymore just a swirl of emotions.

The 2nd time I found out via a net nanny program I had on her computer I had a bad feeling again so reinstalled it and after a couple weeks I read about it when they were chatting online.

The 2nd time I was furious I woke her up yelling at her to call her Mom to come pick her up and get out of the house. I didnt want to have anything more to do with her and was ready for a divorce. I yelled at her about how could she do this to her family break it up I got more angry at her at what our divorce would do to our daughters.

I walked into the other room while she packed her stuff to go to her moms. Her mom got there and talked to me 1st and asked me what happened. I told her exactly what happened and that I didnt want her here at our home anymore.

Her mom talked to her for a bit and then brought us together and mediated we were up all night long. We decided not to make any major decisions until we calmed down a bit more.

After a lot of prayer and thinking it felt right for me work again at our marriage and stay together. I made that decision maybe a week later.

After that things were amazing for like a month we made love everyday sometimes twice a day full of passion we talked a lot and made plans started counseling and met with the bishop. Bought all the books and started really working on fixing our marriage. All details are here if you wanna read it- http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/35561-hurt-scared-confused.html

Seems I kept going and doing everything I could and she dropped off after a couple months and slowly improving.

I agree I dont think she should have felt sad my brother got a girlfriend...

to me thats saying she was waiting for him to come back to her again and start something else but hes moved on and she lost that.

She said thats not how she felt and doesnt know why she is sad because of it and it hurts her to even have those feelings because she has someone so wonderful right in front of her.

Edited November 21, 2011 by John11111

[Guest mormonmusic]

. I ask her if there is anything more I could be doing or anything I should not be doing and says she doesnt know.

Im not perfect who is? I like to think that im doing pretty good though but sometimes you need someone from outside to point out the flaws you dont see.

You need to keep asking her -- maybe be more specific in your questions. I asked my wife to redo the Emotional Needs Questionnaire a while ago, and she still hasn't done it. Always says she's too busy....so, I guess I will have to get the questionnaire and ask her the questions specifically, but casually. I would keep a finger on how you're doing....and see whether any new needs crop up...

Could there be an underlying need that she's not telling you about that might hurt you, like, say Attractive Spouse or something like that? I'm only probing at this point, and don't know the answer. Personally, if my wife asked me what she could do better I'd be all over the question with a specific list of things, but she never asks.

[John11111]

I dunno thats whats so frustrating I dont know what to work on to make things better.

I dont think its physical attraction im well groomed 6'2" 173 lbs she says she thinks of my physique like the David statue I guess thats what she says anyways lol.

Ill try going through the emotional needs list again and reevaluate where we are could be things have changed.

[John11111]

Well I went ahead with my idea of dispelling the good memories she had for my brother and well...

Dont know if it was a great idea... I told her thr truth about things me and my brother have talked about since then the reasons behind it all etc.

I told her about how he wasnt the nice kind person she has pictured in her head. He was the dark hearted guy who didnt care if he ruined the lives of 2 little girls or his brother or her.

I told her he wasnt the honest caring guy she thought he was. He was a liar he had told her he had never had sex with anyone before her but he told me of 2 different girls he had slept with before.

I told her about how 1/2 the reason he did what he did was to get back at me for abandoning him when we were in highschool getting married and moving out so young.

I asked her if she thought someone who really cared about her would use her like that lie to her, if he really cared about her he woulda helped her to fix her marriage not destroy it.

I told her I was not angry and not trying to be spiteful or vengeful but just trying to let her see the truth. Im well past all that stuff now and just want to help our relationship.

She blew up after that saying she was angry, and frustrated, and lost, hurt, confused... sounds like me when I found out she was having the affair ...

She went on to say she has everything she should ever want in life but was still unhappy. She felt worthless and like a failure and she couldnt get herself together. She in tears and saying she doesnt want to think anymore she just wants to be alone. She said she was gonna call her mom and go be with her for a while and just sit with her and cry. She doesnt know when she will be back...

So yeah it seems I screwed up? Maybe she needed it? I didnt think she would be so upset over it especially if shes trying to repent and move on. To me it was a much deeper emotional bond then I think is appropriate to still have at this time.

Im worried that I really messed things up and shoulda left it alone but at the same time im glad I see how strongly she was tied emotionally to him that cant be healthy for our relationship...

Anyways ... I dunno now ... I feel like the bad guy... I know im not the bad guy im trying to do everything right just doesnt seem to matter.

[John11111]

OK so been reading all night and going through some of the sections we skipped on marriage builders ( we figured we covered it all in counseling and through our books) guess we were wrong and found this.

"They are experiencing symptoms of withdrawal from the addiction they have to their lovers.

As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.

But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing."

It makes a lot of sense to me and matches what has been going on lately. Anyways I thought id share my reading for others who come across this situation in the future.

[JudoMinja]

Hey John. I've just come into this, and I'm so sorry about your situation. While I don't have much experience or personal understanding about affairs, I do understand addictions and an affair is an addiction of sorts, as your most recent post points out.

There is something in your wife, emotionally/spiritually, that is broken. She isn't sure how to fix it, and whatever she is addicted to (the emotional affair) provides some kind of relief for the symptoms of her inner problem. That relief becomes a life-saver, and the addict clings to it but needs more and more of it to get the same effect and overcome the anxiety/depression/etc. Because the relief is coming from an inappropriate source, it also comes with guilt which just compounds the problem. It is something that brings pleasure in place of joy.

This is about more than just meeting her emotional needs so that she does not "crave" having them fulfilled elsewhere. She needs to fix whatever is broken inside of her through the proper channels, so that she can find true and lasting joy instead of temporary pleasure. Only by practicing self-control over her urges and desires and by filling her life with "joyful" things instead of "pleasurable" things will the cravings start disappearing.

All addictions start with some form of chemical imbalance. That chemical imbalance may have always been there or have been created by the first steps into the addiction. If it was always there, it is possible that medication will help (ie. if she suffers from clinical depression, taking anti-depresents will help balance things out and make this easier for her to overcome). The addiction satisfies cravings and tips the scales one way, but always with a following withdrawal that makes the imbalance worse. So, if she is going to overcome it, she needs to exercise self-control over whatever urge is causing the problem. This does not just mean abstaining from your brother. It means figuring out what your brother "fulfilled" for her and working on curbing that appetite completely, because even if you are the one fulfilling it that is still not correcting the imbalance and could even be making it worse.

The only path to true and lasting joy is through repentance and service. She needs to work on her weaknesses and strive to help others. Only then will she start seeing a difference in her turmoil of emotions and confused thoughts.

[John11111]

Well we went to teh doctor again wed, we wnet in summer but her labs and everything were ok and she wasnt feeling depressed ro anything so nothing happened.

They did more lab work again but we explained everything and how she feeling depressed again lately. The doctor says she may suffer from SAD which is seasonal affective disorder. We got her started on an anti-depressant.

She been preety upset about having to be on medications but we hoping that she feels better but will be 2-4 weeks before we know for sure. We have a follow up appointment in 2 weeks so we have our fingers crossed.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Great John111 -- I admire what you're doing here -- digging into the marriagebuilders, looking at the medical side -- everything. Great work. You're working at it the same way I've been working at it myself with my own marriage. And your marriage seems much harder than mine with the brother, the infidelity etcetera. All I can do is gush with admiration for how proactive you are, and try sustain your hope that you will come out of this with a happy marriage....

You are probably the most proactive and level headed person I've ever given marriage advice to on this forum. If anyone will be successful at this -- you will.

Edited November 26, 2011 by mormonmusic

[Martain]

Personally I've been bound by addictions in my own life. I know the power of the Atonement is real. These addictions that I hated and could not break myself no matter how much willpower I threw at it, were mercifully lifted completely from me through repentance to where the desire was completely gone. He changed my heart!

This too is the power she needs. Yet no one else can find it for her. From what she says, it sounds like she is still committing adultery with him in her mind. I hope this is not the case but if it is, she has need to repent and until she does, I do not see her becoming free of the chains by which she is bound.

You are limited in what you can do to help her because her repentance is primarily between her and the Lord. Yet ask anyways. Ask the Lord if there is anything else you can do to help her that you're not already doing. You love her and I know that if there is, you'll do it. If nothing else, seek out a knowledge from the spirit that you're doing all you can for this will comfort you and give you great strength.

There is power in fasting. Lend the power of your faith to her via fasting. Ask the bishop if it would be acceptable to ask the ward to fast for her too. The adversary is still very much assaulting her via this opening and the more aid you can send her way, the better.

Know that I feel for you John. This is painful stuff and I applaud your efforts and diligence in such trying circumstances. I expect the Lord is very proud of you right now. He knows what you're going through and as you seek his comfort, he will help bear you up.

[Juan_P]

Its been a year since I found my wife had been cheating 2nd time with my brother.

./QUOTE]

No way?...and twice?

Divorce her as soon as you can! She probably wont change after doing it twice. Actually, after the first infidelity with your brother that should have been it, over and done with.

You can try all the counselling and books and that but it doesn't change the fact that she has already broken the marriage and if anything, she should be begging you to stay not the other way round.

[Martain]

We have been commanded to forgive and that he who does not, a worse sin lies within them.

Although he says that it was the second time, we don't know exactly what that means. It may mean that she cheated with him twice before he found out.

A temple marriage is not something to be thrown away at the first sign of illness. It is worth everything you can put into it and then more.

You would tell me Juan that there is no such thing as repentance. That the atonement is not real and that people can not change. I tell you that such thoughts are a lie.

Repentance is real and the power of the atonement can change hearts. This I know as perfect knowledge.

Given enough time and love, if she desires to change and seeks the Lords aid, she will.

[Juan_P]

We have been commanded to forgive and that he who does not, a worse sin lies within them.

Yes, whether they divorce or not he should forgive her. But forgiveness doesn't mean that the marriage covenant, which she has already broken, will somehow continue.

Although he says that it was the second time, we don't know exactly what that means. It may mean that she cheated with him twice before he found out.

To me it's clear that she cheated twice with his brother -which makes things worse since he is also her brother through marriage. Now if the church considers sex with a step son as incest -requiring mandatory excomunication almost always- why isn't what this wife did not incest too, ie a much more serious sin than adultery

A temple marriage is not something to be thrown away at the first sign of illness. It is worth everything you can put into it and then more.

She was the one who threw it away when she cheated the first time but here there are two known times. Plus adultery breaks the marriage covenant of 'cleave to him and none other'; its more than just illness, it's more akin to the death of the marriage.

You would tell me Juan that there is no such thing as repentance. That the atonement is not real and that people can not change. I tell you that such thoughts are a lie.

I never said that nor implied that. She should repent however the married ended when she cheated. If she wants to recover it and he is willing to try then the onus should be on her to recover what she ended in adultery.

Repentance is real and the power of the atonement can change hearts. This I know as perfect knowledge.

Yes however we don't necessarily invite those who have hurt us to dinner every day even if they have repented.

Given enough time and love, if she desires to change and seeks the Lords aid, she will.

yeah, if she desires to change. It doesn't matter what he thinks, and hopefully he wont be so naive as to wait for her for years to change. there are plenty of single women in church who are willing to be faithful and loyal to their husbands

[prettyrose]

John,

She needs to have the desire to change from the bottom of her heart. How did you find out about it? Did she want to come clean and told you about the affair? Someone that

confesses to affairs are A) sorry to the point that the guilt eats them alive in their inner soul that they can no longer keep locked inside or B) they only admit it cause they have no other option like you'd find out.

The more details and honest and open that she was with you is part of feeling guilty and it was eating at her inner soul.

Most people don't cheat just for the heck of it. There is usually a underlying reason. Women need to feel loved and valued. Women sometimes stray by look to other men when they don't feel wanted romantically and valued by their man anymore. The first signs of this is when they GET ATTENTION from another man even little compliments here and there start to add up.

I know that we are suppose to forgive. She should be thankful and grateful that you are sticking it through thick and thin regarding this major error she made using poor judgment.

Sex creates a bond. She needs to break that bond that obviously happened between your brother and her. Time breaks the bond to eventually one day she feels NOTHING and can look at him with NOTHING. Whether she admits it to you or not she is pissed at the new girlfriend because she feels REPLACED and that she MEANT NOTHING to him. Another degrade in her mind.

I would look at the big picture. Has been more faithful to you over the years of marriage than not?

Keep us updated.

[John11111]

You can read the original post I made a year ago here it has all the details of what happened before

http://www.lds.net/forums/marriage-relationship-advice/35561-hurt-scared-confused.html

I understand now that there are multiple emotional needs that need to be bet in order for a relationship to stay healthy and though i was doing good with 4/5 of them i wasnt doing them all. My brother provided her with the missing need which led to the affair. I know im not to blame for it but I could have done more to prevent it had I known and would have.

She did admit to me exactly that hes moved on and doesnt care for her anymore. It makes her angry to know about the other girls before her as well. For her it was an emotional bond that meant something.

Knowing that she destroyed her marriage just to "add another notch to his belt" Made her feel worse. She said it was like trading in a treasured jewel for what seemed like something valuable then finding what she had traded for was just a dirty piece of garbage.

I hope I dont have to wait years more for her to change and yes there are plenty of other women out there but I dont want other women I want my wife, the mother of my children, I love her dearly and she means the world to me.

Incest are you serious? Are you sure im the one being naive here... please remember you are talking about my wife please be more respectful.

I dont know what it is why exactly I have put up with so much or why I continue to fight. I honestly can only thank the lord for that.

The lords words echo when I get doubts or lose hope. When I get negative feelings I try to think how the Lord would treat his wife? and I push on.

[Martain]

You are an example to me John. Thank you.

[MaidservantX]

My thoughts as I read this is what ninja referred to.

Her main struggles at the moment probably have nothing to do with her relationship with you. They are her relationship to herself.

She needs to be able to love herself. She needs to give herself permission to love herself. She needs to give herself permission to forgive herself. THESE DECISIONS TO FINALLY DO THESE THINGS ARE EXCRUCIATING and are a long time coming.

She's not doing any of these things. She is treating herself like she knows you are "supposed" to treat an "adulteress". She is especially doing that for you, since you are not. She is punishing herself. IT'S EASIER THAN BEING HAPPY WITH YOURSELF "THE ADULTERESS".

She needs an opportunity either through counseling and/or the atonement to come to terms with her actions and be at peace with herself. Then she'll be able to let your love seep in, and enjoy it, and feel free to return it.

And please don't put a timer on it (a year) :).

But I am in awe of you, God bless you both.

[Juan_P]

John,

Most people don't cheat just for the heck of it. There is usually a underlying reason. Women need to feel loved and valued. Women sometimes stray by look to other men when they don't feel wanted romantically and valued by their man anymore. The first signs of this is when they GET ATTENTION from another man even little compliments here and there start to add up.

Hmmm.... why isn't Satan and temptation a part of this analysis of why women cheat? or is it always the man's fault?

[Juan_P]

You are an example to me John. Thank you.

What? how's that work, you don't know me at all.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Hmmm.... why isn't Satan and temptation a part of this analysis of why women cheat? or is it always the man's fault?

Of course it's not always the man's fault. But, sometimes the way men treat their wives can make them feel that they are neither valued or loved. I'd say that Satan and temptation are always naturally a part of it, but I'd also say that's because Satan knows well the weaknesses that a woman can succumb to if she is feeling a lack of love and value, for whatever reason she's feeling it.