An outsiders view of BoM Archeology

[Guest Cneve]

I listened to this podcast on Mormon Stories Podcast, very interesting!

268-270: Dr. Michael Coe – An Outsider’s View of Book of Mormon Archaeology | Mormon Stories Podcast

Dr. Michael Coe is an expert on the Maya, who inhabited the same part of Mexico and Central American where Mormon scholars say the events of the Book of Mormon took place. In this interview, Coe discusses the challenges facing Mormon archaeologists attempting to prove the historical truth of their central scripture and his own views on Joseph Smith.

Yes he is skeptical, but he is not anti-mormon, he thinks JS is one of the greatest people who ever lived, and he thinks very highly of the church and its members, he says in the interview, Worth listening to!

Has anyone else here listened to this? Your opinions?

[volgadon]

Coe is an expert on the Maya, a brilliant man, but sadly he has never risen above treating the BoM as a caricature.

[livy111us]

The Neal A Maxwell Institute will be publishing a response to this interview very soon. While Coe is a very smart man, he really doesn't have much of a clue about the BOM. That interview had several straw man, most were set up by Dehlin himself for Coe to knock over. I wasn't all that impressed with it.

[Guest Cneve]

Can you give any example of things he says that are wrong?

[Shelly200]

Yes, this is one big leap for non-LDS to take when learning about or considering the Mormon church. The problem is that we can go to the places listed in the Bible and see where it took place, see the artifacts that remain from those times. In America it is very hard to see evidence of Jews ever inhabiting these continents.

If someone has anything on this topic that is written out and not too long (preferably in points rather than essay-style) I'd be very interested in looking into this topic.

[Vort]

The problem is that we can go to the places listed in the Bible and see where it took place, see the artifacts that remain from those times.

Baloney. Very, very few Christians ever actually go to the so-called "Holy Land". Their belief is not based on being able to walk around ancient ruins or sites mentioned. If so, no one would believe in Eden. Or heaven.

[circusboy01]

I personally believe Heavenly Father is the reason there is little to no physical evidence of the Nephite's

and Lamonite's ever existing. Because he wants us to believe through faith. Not physical

evidence. Does anyone else look at it that way? Brother Ray

[Shelly200]

Baloney. Very, very few Christians ever actually go to the so-called "Holy Land". Their belief is not based on being able to walk around ancient ruins or sites mentioned. If so, no one would believe in Eden. Or heaven.

No one's faith in God is based on going to the Holy Land. And I never said that.

I said that we can see physical evidence of the Jews living in Biblical places, and can't see that evidence in the Americas.

1.) Not everyone believes in a physical Eden.

2.) Heaven is not on Earth, so we wouldn't be able to see a physical place for it.

So both of those arguments are moot.

But it is grounds for concern for many people that there is plenty of archaeological evidence for Jews in Biblical places, but not in America.

[livy111us]

Since it has not been revealed where exactly where The Book of Mormon took place, it is more difficult to find evidence. Most scholars believe it took place in Mesoamerica and there is quite a bit of evidence to support that theory. But you should not be looking for the same kind of evidence that you find in the Near East. The Lord said that he spoke unto and taught the Nephites in a way they would understand. Since they lived (most likely) in Mesoamerica they wouldn't have understood Old World imagery, but they would understand it if it was based on familiar themes they were used to in their Mayan culture. If you look at it this way, it changes the way you would expect to find in the Americas. On top of that, we have only excavated .5% of the ruins in Mesoamerica, and can read very little of the Pre-Classical era glyphs (which the translations are constantly changing). There is much to discover about that area, but we are finding more and more evidences for The Book of Mormon as time goes on.

Mark Wright is a Mayan archaeologist and has made some wonderful discoveries in behalf of The BOM. He gave a talk earlier this year on Nephite Daykeepers which is actually very good. You can watch it here:

Here is a whole bunch of videos on the subject:

fairldsorg's Channel - YouTube

The video Journey of Faith has some *great* information on this as well. This channel has the entire video, but it is also mixed in with the Old World version of Journey of Faith, which is also very good.

bookmormon's Channel - YouTube

Brant Gardner has a six-book commentary on The Book of Mormon which is an excellent commentary in itself, but finds Mesoamerica in The BOM throughout the entire text. I would highly recommend it. Here is the first volume: FAIR LDS Bookstore - Second Witness: Analytical & Contextual Commentary on the Book of Mormon Vol 1 First Nephi

John Sorenson wrote a classic on the subject years ago called "An Ancient American Setting for The Book of Mormon" that is still in print and still very relevant.

Edited December 11, 2011 by livy111us

[Just_A_Guy]

But it is grounds for concern for many people that there is plenty of archaeological evidence for Jews in Biblical places, but not in America.

But there's lots of archaological evidence for Joseph Smith and his family in Palmyra; in Harmony; in Kirtland; in Independence; in Nauvoo. I can take you to the Sacred Grove. We can enter the Kirtland Temple together. I can go to the entry foyer in the Salt Lake Temple where Lorenzo Snow claimed to have seen Jesus Christ Himself.

So why don't you accept our Doctrine and Covenants as holy writ? Mormonism's archaeological support puts that of mainline Christianity to shame--doesn't it?

[Shelly200]

But there's lots of archaological evidence for Joseph Smith and his family in Palmyra; in Harmony; in Kirtland; in Independence; in Nauvoo. I can take you to the Sacred Grove. We can enter the Kirtland Temple together. I can go to the entry foyer in the Salt Lake Temple where Lorenzo Snow claimed to have seen Jesus Christ Himself.

So why don't you accept our Doctrine and Covenants as holy writ? Mormonism's archaeological support puts that of mainline Christianity to shame--doesn't it?

Well, if one doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, then it wouldn't matter to them if you could see places where he lived.

But yes, it does prove *that* he lived and *where.* That's the point: you can prove that Jews lived in the Holy Land undoubtedly, but there's little, if any, evidence that they lived in the Americas.

Once again: that I know of. If someone could point me in the direction of evidence I am missing, I am interested in looking at it.

[livy111us]

Well, if one doesn't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, then it wouldn't matter to them if you could see places where he lived.

But yes, it does prove *that* he lived and *where.* That's the point: you can prove that Jews lived in the Holy Land undoubtedly, but there's little, if any, evidence that they lived in the Americas.

Once again: that I know of. If someone could point me in the direction of evidence I am missing, I am interested in looking at it.

Please see my previous post. I gave you several resources on evidences in the Americas.

[Shelly200]

Please see my previous post. I gave you several resources on evidences in the Americas.

For some reason I didn't see your previous post, sorry.

But I'm confused on a couple of points simply in the first paragraph you wrote. From my reading of the BofM, a group of Jews comes to South/Central America across the Atlantic and begin civilizations. So, wouldn't their civilizations look, if not identical to, at least extremely similar to the Jewish cultures of the Holy Land? And since they multiplied into great numbers, then there would be evidence for large cities modeled after the Old World cities that the Jews knew? How would they not understand Old World imagery, if they came from the Old World?

I'm a little rough on some parts of the BofM, so I can't remember if the Americas were supposed to already have been inhabited when the Jews got there. If so, wouldn't there be a very evident difference in ancient Indian culture and the new Jewish culture?

And the BofM also mentions things that aren't found in ancient America, like steel, horses, honeybees, and elephants.

Those are just my thoughts from the start. I will try to look over some of your links soon, and I thank you for posting them for me.

[livy111us]

You've got it right. The Americas had been inhabited for quite a long time prior to Lehi's arrival. In Mesoamerica, there was already a thriving culture at that time and Lehi and his party were the outsiders. While they were Jews themselves, they were only a handful of people and would not have been able to change an entire culture. Historically, when a small groups enters a large population, that small group is absorbed and they take on the characteristics of the culture itself. Being a Mormon, if I were to move to Japan which is largely Buddhist, I would live in a house similar to other Buddhist's, I would be surrounded by Buddhist's, and probably pick up some Buddhist lingo. But I would still be a Mormon. In a thousand years archaeologist's would not be able to tell the difference between the ruins of my house and the ruins of the entire Buddhist culture. They would most likely assume that I was a Buddhist myself. I believe this is exactly what happened in Mesoamerica.

As for the anachronisms, Wade Miller is the head of the "Horse Project" at BYU which takes horse bones found in archaeological digs that meet certain requirements (found at the right levels, among artifacts which pre-date European contact, etc...) and this group pays to have them carbon dated. So far, they have found 7 specimens which pre-date Columbus in the Yucatan Peninsula. In my opinion, finding one would would show that they existed during BOM times, but he would like to collect several more before officially publishing. His preliminary findings can be found in his books "Science and The Book of Mormon" and the other, longer book which escapes me at the moment. You can read a lecture he gave on horses, elephants, and other anachronisms at the 2009 FAIR conference here: Science and the Book of Mormon

Honeybees were also in the Americas prior to Columbus. There “are many references in the Maya region to honey bees in ancient times, and these references occur in ritual contexts, i.e., are of native or pre-Spanish origin." Other New World scholars have observed that “not only was the domesticated bee in ancient America but that there were gods of bees and beekeepers . . . Honey was considered a real treat for the Indians. Equally important was black wax taken from the hives which was often traded for other commodities." Ronan James Head, "A Brief Survey of Ancient Near Eastern Beekeeping," FARMS Review 20/1 (2008): 57–66

As for steel, a type of it has been found in Mesoamerica in ancient times. John Sorenson, who is the author I referred you to above, in an article on the subject, wrote about evidence of this steel. The article is called "A New Evaluation of the Smithsonian Institution 'Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon,'" FARMS Paper SOR-93, Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1993, p. 17. Jeff Lindsay summarizes it here: Metals, Weapons, and the Book of Mormon (Mormon Answers/LDSFAQ)

[volgadon]

For some reason I didn't see your previous post, sorry.

But I'm confused on a couple of points simply in the first paragraph you wrote. From my reading of the BofM, a group of Jews comes to South/Central America across the Atlantic and begin civilizations. So, wouldn't their civilizations look, if not identical to, at least extremely similar to the Jewish cultures of the Holy Land?

What similarities do you mean? Tels? Why would they do so when most of the topography was different?

City plans would have been adapted to the locale, circumstances, capacities and taste of the settlers.

There is no indication that Lehi was an architect or a builder, or that they continued the massive Syrio-Phoenician tradition by the time they became numerous.

I was born and raised in the Galilee. There are two villages built by Adygs, also known as Circassians. They came from the northwestern Caucasus after being brutally expelled by the Russian Empire. The Ottomans settled them along key frntiker outposts, mainly to keep the Bedouins in check.

This is the old mosque in Rihaniya. It is built in a traditional Caucasian style, but it has some small differences.

This is the more recent mosque in Kfar Kama. It is similar to the Circassian mosque in Amman, Jordan, which was constructed in 1961. How similar does it look to the Rihaniya mosque?

This wasn't the only thing that changed.

The historic villages of Rihaniya and Kfar Kama were built in an Adyg style (with local variations). All houses faced into a shared courtyard with the mosque in the center and together they formed a continuous wall used as fortification. Since 1948 the inhabitants spread out of the old village walls and built in an Arab style. The traditional architecture had all but vanished in less than 100 years!

How similar was Abraham Lincoln's log cabin to the homes built by his Norfolk ancestors?

A 19th c. Ukrainian Jewish shtetl did not look like a jewish village in the Yemenite highlands.

And since they multiplied into great numbers, then there would be evidence for large cities modeled after the Old World cities that the Jews knew?

Why, if by the time they became numerous most of them had never set foot in Judah?

How would they not understand Old World imagery, if they came from the Old World?

What do you mean by imagery?

I'm a little rough on some parts of the BofM, so I can't remember if the Americas were supposed to already have been inhabited when the Jews got there. If so, wouldn't there be a very evident difference in ancient Indian culture and the new Jewish culture?

The BoM is silent on the topic, but contains some intriguing hints that they weren't the only ones.

If we assume that there were locals with their own culture, Lehi's material culture could very easily have been absorbed in the predominant one, as is indeed the case with most Jews throughout history.

[Mamas_Girl]

From my reading of the BofM, a group of Jews comes to South/Central America across the Atlantic and begin civilizations.

Actually, many LDS scholars believe they crossed the Pacific, not the Atlantic, and they landed on the western side of Mesoamerica. Reexploring the Book of Mormon - Winds and Currents: A Look at Nephi's Ocean Crossing

[jayanna]

Weren't there some caves uncovered near Mexico City with drawings from the type of writing Joseph Smith described in the book of Mormon? Also haven't there been found books made out of metal, and simlarly constructed to the metal plates that were translated?

Also, there are horses called 'curlies' here on the American continent that I have seen and to my knowledge their origin has never been explained.

They might have been Jews, but those Jews had lived an Egyptian lifestyle for quite a while, due to their enslavement.

[livy111us]

Weren't there some caves uncovered near Mexico City with drawings from the type of writing Joseph Smith described in the book of Mormon? Also haven't there been found books made out of metal, and simlarly constructed to the metal plates that were translated?

Also, there are horses called 'curlies' here on the American continent that I have seen and to my knowledge their origin has never been explained.

They might have been Jews, but those Jews had lived an Egyptian lifestyle for quite a while, due to their enslavement.

You are probably thinking about the Tlatilco seal which has many of it's markings corresponding to the Anthon manuscript (which contain characters taken directly off of the gold plates). You can see a side by side comparison here:

A challenge to the critics ... - Diane E. Wirth - Google Books

As for writing on metal plates, there have been several examples of this in Mesoamerica. You can read about them here:

LDS Criticisms-- Metal Plates & Stone Boxes

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