Article 7: Are Mormons Pentecostal?

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Desire: I love the way you pack such wisdom into your seemingly simple observations. :-)

That wasn't wisdom, Tommy. She made a judgement call... without seeking more understanding... and IM ALWAYS HO, that wasn't wise.

When Desire makes an accurate judgment call, we call that wisdom. Sarcasm can be found in your post--especially those of the last few days. As others have said, this string is getting stale enough with a pasted list of examples. So, don't bother being defensive. Just ask God (and I mean this sincerely) if you have perhaps strayed in your tone, and whether He might be pleased if you again adjust towards nicer approach.

Yes, when God inspires us, and we all agree it was God, but not when our "thinking" conflicts.

Ray, if all you are saying is that you don't believe something until God confirms it to your spirit, then you are saying precious little. People of faith do this automatically. I will not believe anything the Spirit makes me uncomfortable with.

You seem to be saying more--than you really don't need people, because you commune directly with God. Even the prophets garnered wisdom from their fellow mortals.

I agree with your premise... that God inspires men with the ability to develop medicines which can help us take care of our bodies... but I would have told him to ask God how God felt about taking it... I wouldn't have tried to impose my opinion of that medicine on that man.

I trust God's voice. I don't always trust my/other's ears. So, when concrete doctrine and applications are available, I communicate them. Do bishops not do the same?

Let me put it this way: If God speaks the truth through anyone I can know it is true by asking God.

I wouldn't "just believe" someone, not even an unwashed heathen, who is saying he is speaking for God.

And what believing person, does? If this is your point, you have an amazing and doggedly repetitious way of repeating the obvious. Ray, we do know this. Sincere Mormons, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. would not buy into the words of men, if the Spirit warned against it. It goes without saying. So, is there more to this drumbeat of yours?

Heh, oh, that one wins you a prize... a big fat booby prize. So you're saying that if I were to protest about your claim to be speaking for God... when I know you really are not... my protest, in and of itself, would help you to feel deep down that God really must be using you... because I told you I knew, and still know, He wasn't???

Ray, don't twist and shout. It's not about me. I could be a son of perdition, and God still might give you a truth, through my words. I have no ego in this. Mine was vanquished when I understood Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. How could I ever be full of myself again???

Heh, no wonder it's taking you so long to join the Church... and ask God to tell you more truth!

Well, I have joined the church universal and catholic (note the small-case). My name is in the Lamb's Book of Life. It just isn't found next to yours. If you're right, and I'm sincere, I'll get there, right? In the mean time, if you keep listening, just maybe you'll get a blessing of some type too.

And btw, Tommy, I love you, man. I hope you don't care TOO MUCH for my thoughts.

We've been at this too long for me to get too upset. But, it does concern me that you swing back and forth from nice to 'difficult.' I think we non-LDS are more patient with you than your bretheren.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ray;

1) You may think that the " best" books ARE Scripture, but Joseph the one who actually had this revelation, thought it not.

Oh yeah? Says who? You? You are simply giving me your interpretation, and I know how to know what God thinks.

You cant put your interpretation in the mind of a historical person.

Sure I can. Just like you did. And by asking God I can know what is true.

The best example is the revelation in D&C concerning ALL apocriphal writtings, that say that OUT of THEM(NOT Scripture)

Okay. Let's cut to the chase. What is YOUR definition of scripture? I'm not saying that I'll accept it. I can also know what is true... regardless of what you may think.

...we can gain a LOT of TRUTH.(infact) we know most of them were NOT written by any of the Standard Works authors, so ..???

Okay. Let me take a little guess here. Are you saying that words aren't scripture unless they're written by the same people who wrote the standard works? Is that your understanding of what scripture is?

I say scriptures are words written by men who were inspired by God... they don't have to be part of our "canon".

... are you planning to ignore the Lord's, Science's and other people studies' knowledge?

Heh, nope. I won't ignore anything I know our Lord inspired... just what I know He didn't inspire.

2) I do care for your response, if mine makes you uncomfortable then I wont post it any further.

Your thoughts do not make me uncomfortable, Serg. I'm saying I don't really care what you think.

And btw, I'm not saying I don't care about YOU. I simply don't care for your thoughts... unless they're God's thoughts... not just yours... and I'll know that.

You can cathegorize the act then, as either true consideration(charity) or plain stupidity(pride). You choose, after all, god must tell you so in you 600pm talk.

Heh, what was that? Did you see it? Was it real? Something just flew right over my head!...

...I really don't know what you just said.

There seems to be more sarcastic questions than anwsers in alot of your posts....

That's a judgment, your judgment, of what you think I am feeling, Desire'.

I'm just being playful. Is that "sarcasm"?

To me "sarcasm" has a negative connotation... and while I'm a little bit frustrated... I feel love.

It hurts Ray. Not that you do not simply agree with me, that is by no means necessarry, but your predisposition to harken the Lord's reasoning through another person rather than from one of your countless and verball conversations with Him...

Look, i know Ray, that it makes you (as with all of us), uncomfortable when people misunderstand you, or misquote what you said(dont say it does'nt-be real). But in my case, I have not misquoted you, I ve been around here enough to know (at least a bit) of how you think(for every mind is a world). All I have said, to the best of my capacities, is that as I am not God, and I wont " convince" you of what I think(which I do not intend), i had to use other resources that are RELLIABLE under your view(Scripture, Statements of Joseph, etc...) which all agree in that a man has not to be inspired to proclaim a truth. If a heathen would just repeat (with NO inward ' feeling" at all) that " jesus is the Son of God" he would STILL be yelling a TrUTH. So I say to you, that men and women in their own fields*(let them be atheists or theists-even if oppose mormonism) can be promoting a deep truth without even knowing it, and we should be ready to " examine all and hold fast that which is good". When the lord says ALL, it means literally, ALL.

You know, the paradox here, is that Joseph until his death used a stick(i dont know how it's called in english, but is that sort of thing you use so you can walk), snake shaped, with an inscription on the top(or where you hold it with your hand to elan over it), its in a Museum in Utah(of history), a beautifull piece made of wood, you know what it says? "Jupiter Rules over Joseph".

Now, my point is, not that Joseph would have believed in such stupidities as astrology, even throughout his calling as a prophet, but the humble admission in his part that even from things radically other than his perfect religion, truth may be found. And NOT inspired truth, but truth prolongued by study or other means.

regards,

[prisonchaplain]

Serg, I hope Ray gets it. I think I understood your point all along. There are tremendous gems in your posts. Thank you.

One anchor that helps me here is that, while there are persons behind each posts, we really don't know each other "flesh and blood." So, it's best not to read too much into nuance, and just to look for the essential thoughts being communicated.

So many times I'm tempted to say, "Wait...that's not nice, that's rude, or that's demeaning!" only to find out a few posts later that none (or very little) of that was INTENDED.

So, let us take Mr. York's (Fantasy Island) advice: Smiles everyone, smiles! And then, let us hold cyber-hands and sing Kum By Ya.

Blessings hermanos! PC

[Ray]

I also hope you'll get more than you've got now, Tommy.

You don't know me as well as you think. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Knowing a person isn't required to know what they say. Since actions can't be "attached" to our posts, words are all we have to go on in this online colloquium. Since inflection also can't be "attached" to our words online, why not stay as far away from sarcasm and "jokes" that might be misconstrued when read?

Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That's always been a helpful guide for me.

I have to echo one thing PC said: Anyone who believes they know God does not need to repeat it in every post. Such repetitions take on a flavor of fanfaronade, which is surely not what's intended.

[Princess3dward]

Knowing a person isn't required to know what they say. Since actions can't be "attached" to our posts, words are all we have to go on in this online colloquium. Since inflection also can't be "attached" to our words online, why not stay as far away from sarcasm and "jokes" that might be misconstrued when read?

Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That's always been a helpful guide for me.

I have to echo one thing PC said: Anyone who believes they know God does not need to repeat it in every post. Such repetitions take on a flavor of fanfaronade, which is surely not what's intended.

I don't want to ruing a mood or anything...

but...

What does "fanfaronade" mean?

[Ray]

Knowing a person isn't required to know what they say.

Heh, if you don't know God, how can you know what God says?

Just by reading some words in some books?

And if you don't know me how can you know what I say? And how do you know what I meant?

Just by hearing from other people who think they do?

Since actions can't be "attached" to our posts, words are all we have to go on in this online colloquium.

No, not really, but I think I understand what you meant. (and I'll save that thought of mine for later)

We should strive to understand what someone is really saying, and sometimes we need to ask them questions... instead of simply assuming we really know what they meant and not asking them if it is right.

Since inflection also can't be "attached" to our words online, why not stay as far away from sarcasm and "jokes" that might be misconstrued when read?

Because maybe someone likes to use jokes and sarcasm???

Did you think of that thought, Einstein?

Duh!!!

Should all people avoid jokes and using sarcasm sometimes just because YOU don't like them to do that?

Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That's always been a helpful guide for me.

You can do what you want, you can say what you want, but don't even try to make me like you!!!

I can do what I want, I can say what I want, and I will be like God, if I want to.

I have to echo one thing PC said: Anyone who believes they know God does not need to repeat it in every post.

Oh, you think not, huh? And why should I care what you think?

If I want to say something I'll say it, and I really don't care what you think.

Try to get that thought through your head, ApostleKnight. I don't have to conform to YOUR standards.

Such repetitions take on a flavor of fanfaronade, which is surely not what's intended.

Oh... such wisdom... such knowledge. I'm totally in awe of you, ApostleKnight.

Since you don't like "fanfaronade", whatever the heck that is, then I should avoid it too. I got it.

I got that thought... it's as clear as a bell... but I really don't care what you think. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Thus begins a flaming descent we've all seen before, culminating in Ray leaving the board in a huff vowing never to return...only to do so five days later.

Fanfaronade: "Arrogant or boastful talk."

Consult an online dictionary in the future.

[Ray]

Thus begins a flaming descent we've all seen before, culminating in Ray leaving the board in a huff vowing never to return...only to do so five days later.

Heh, in all the times I have left this board, for a while, I NEVER said I wasn't coming back.

I say "goodbye" when I feel like I need a breather, and right now I feel fresh and all tingly. :)

Fanfaronade: "Arrogant or boastful talk."

Consult an online dictionary in the future.

Heh, I do know how to know the meaning of words, ApostleKnight... without any comments from YOU. :)

And if YOU think I was using fanfaronade, then I must have been, is that it?... ApostleKnight???

You STILL do not know who I am. :)

[Princess3dward]

Fanfaronade: "Arrogant or boastful talk."

Consult an online dictionary in the future.

I did... it couldn't find the word.. :S

Mine sux though.. (I think... it might be older...)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

After a year on this board, I think I know you well enough. The question is, do you know yourself Ray?

(That's rhetorical, but I know you'll respond anyway)

[Princess3dward]

Such repetitions take on a flavor of fanfaronade, which is surely not what's intended.

Oh... such wisdom... such knowledge. I'm totally in awe of you, ApostleKnight.

Since you don't like "fanfaronade", whatever the heck that is, then I should avoid it too. I got it.

I got that thought... it's as clear as a bell... but I really don't care what you think. :)

Sometimes you make me feel sad Ray....

Not before... but you do now...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I was more telling Ray to look it up than you Desire, you can ask me what words mean at any time.

[Ray]

After a year on this board, I think I know you well enough. The question is, do you know yourself Ray?

Heh, so is "well enough" as well as you want to know me... after hearing you don't know me very well?

That question was for you... I know who I really am... and I'll know when you really know me...

... just like God really knows if you really know Him... even though you may think you know Him well.

(That's rhetorical, but I know you'll respond anyway)

Rhetorical meaning you don't really want to hear my answer... you don't care if I know you don't know me?

If that is right, then let me know. I won't assume anything. If you don't want to know me, let me know.

I was more telling Ray to look it up than you Desire, you can ask me what words mean at any time.

Heh, I knew you were "telling" me to "look it up".

And it is that type of attitude I don't like... and I am simply letting you know me.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was more telling Ray to look it up than you Desire, you can ask me what words mean at any time.

Heh, I knew you were "telling" me to "look it up".

And it is that type of attitude I don't like... and I am simply letting you know me.

Thank you AK...

I am sorry, Ray...

I think you are getting sad...

Maybe you should pray for peace or comfort or something, and then come back...

That way you might be in a better place to respond...

Just in case you say something that you wonldn't say in a better mood...

Please don't take this as a critism..

I am just worried you are getting sad and I want to help!!

[Ray]

Sometimes you make me feel sad Ray....

Not before... but you do now...

Please explain how what I'm doing can make you feel sad.

Do you really care that much for what I think?

If so I think you care a little too much.

Can you love me for who I am... not what I think?

Can you love me no matter what I may think, say, or do?

Not until then can you truly know God.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Sometimes you make me feel sad Ray....

Not before... but you do now...

Please explain how what I'm doing can make you feel sad.

Do you really care that much for what I think?

If so I think you care a little too much.

Can you love me for who I am... not what I think?

Can you love me no matter what I may think, say, or do?

Not until then can you truly know God.

I DO truly know God...

and He knows me...

which may seem like a small statement to you..

but Him knowing me means I AM His child...

And would it not be sad if He didn't know His child?

I an not commenting on what you think, Ray.

You have a good mind.

I don't mind what you think..

That is not the issue...

In my opinion...

and mine alone-unless otherwise stated-

it is the phrasing of what you are thinking that is making people sad.

I CAN love you dispite what you think....

but I love you because of too...

I think it was unfair to jump to the conclusion that I don't like you at all,

and that I don't know God...

[Ray]

I think it was unfair to jump to the conclusion that I don't like you at all,

and that I don't know God...

I didn't say that... you jumped to the wrong conclusions.

psst... and btw, FYI, to know a little about me, if anything I am VERY direct.

So don't try too hard to "read between the lines"... you don't have to do that with me. :)

Just let me know if you still don't know what I think... okay?

[Princess3dward]

I didn't say that... you jumped to the wrong conclusions.

psst... and btw, FYI, to know a little about me, if anything I am VERY direct.

So don't try too hard to "read between the lines"... you don't have to do that with me. :)

Just let me know if you still don't know what I think... okay?

Sorry..

I thought that was what you ment to say...

I didn't know that it wasn't really there...

I guess I do that sometimes (I don't really know...)...

Sorry..

[Ray]

Heh, you're forgiven, Desire'. :)

And it seems to be a common problem for most, or at least many, other people. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Desire, you have nothing to apologize for. You understood Ray perfectly. Don't let him throw a guilt trip on your shoulders for something he said. You're not the first person to comment on his style of communication...*sigh*...he just won't hear any criticisms about anything he does.

[Ray]

Desire, you have nothing to apologize for.

You misunderstood me a little bit and I knew it.

But we've got that settled now, and you now understand me a little more.

Don't let ApostleKnight's lack of understanding throw you off.

Who do you think knows ME better... him... or ME?

You're not the first person to comment on my style of communication...

*sigh*...

... some people have some trouble understanding me...

... and while I really don''t care what you think of my thoughts...

... I would like you to know what I mean and how I feel...

... I would like it if you really knew ME...

... just like I want to really know YOU...

... on a personal level, regardless of what you think...

... I can love you regardless of what you think. :)

[Princess3dward]

Okie dokie.

Now that everyone is fine® and happy(ier) here...

I can move on with life. lol.

[Maureen]

Can you love me for who I am... not what I think?

Ray, how a person thinks plays a part in who they become. If a person can't get to know you based on your words, especially through cyber space, then how?

Can you love me no matter what I may think, say, or do?

Not until then can you truly know God.

How arrogant can anyone get? Knowing God has nothing to do with you Ray, there are millions of people who don't even know you exist Ray, but they know and love God.

You're getting a little crazy there!

M.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm just trying to figure out how Ray's communication skills has anything to do with whether or not LDS could be considered pentecostal???

Bottom-line: No, the church is not.

BTW, I read Article 7 as a teaser for our class on COJCLDS that beings next week. They all agreed that sans any doctrinal or theological knowledge of the Mormon Church, they all would have thought the movement solidly Pentecostal, based only on the wording of the article.

P.S. I really liked this string...until it imploded.