The Fulness of the Gospel

[roytucker]

Hi all,

My assertion is that the Church is neglecting the gospel, specifically the gospel as outlined in the Book of Mormon.

I think the power of the Book of Mormon is its ability to distil the gospel down to its core components and this is done most powerfully in 3 Nephi. All the books before and after it just deal with different aspects of the same issues.

Christ taught very simply and unambiguously what his doctrine was. He said that his doctrine was to "repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little achild, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God." (3 Ne 11:38) He repeated this instruction three times. He goes on to expand the little child part by giving his instructions for living (Beatitudes, etc) and establishes these as his "commandments".

"Therefore acome unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my bcommandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (3 Ne 12:20)

Yet, consistently, when someone gives a talk on what the Lord's commandments are, we start giving a list of things such as pray, read scriptures, attend our meetings, do our calling, do home teaching, keep the WoW, go to the temple regularly, do our family history, do missionary work, get our food storage ready, go on a mission, go on couples missions. In almost every case, we never actually talk about the commandments that Jesus actually gave.

Jesus' commandments are primarily concerned with how we treat other people. He even devotes a number of verses to how we are to treat our enemies/people we dislike/nasty people. He basically gives a long list of behaviours that most of us would rather not think about because they could make us uncomfortable or require humility and sacrifice on our part.

So why is it that we think that we can instead focus on the other list of stuff (attend meetings, etc) and think that we are on the path to the celestial kingdom? Aren't many of us going to find that we are actually horribly unprepared when the time comes?

Roy

[RipplecutBuddha]

I agree with you, but only to a point. The fact is these things have been out there for a while, and your argument doesn't even need the Book of Mormon necessarily, because the same teachings are in Matthew in the Bible.

The sad fact is that we humans excell at missing the point. This is why we have talks every Sunday. This is why we have Stake Conference, and General Conference. Because Christ is quite aware of how often we must be reminded. Even in the Book of Mormon, at some point the Nephites had to be 'stirred up to a rememberance', so we aren't doing anything new here.

Where I disagree with you is when you say the church is doing it wrong. I think it's up to us as individuals and families to either pay heed to what we know, or to ignore it. It's not like we've never discussed Christ's commandments as a church. I can see you have a great testimony about them, and that's a wonderful thing. What I hope for you is that you don't get upset that others aren't at the same place on the path to Christ as you are.

We've all got our own lessons to learn at our own pace. Insted of getting upset, perhaps try to share your faith with others in an uplifting way that helps them see what you see. This would absolutely be in harmony with everything Christ ever taught.

[applepansy]

I don't agree that "the Church" is neglecting the gospel.

Everything you're disagreeing with leads us to learning about Christ. Every conference talk, every Sacrament meeting, every Primary lesson, etc., gives us the opportunity to learn more about Christ and his teachings or to put into practice those teachings. Sometimes those talks/lessons/meetings don't apply to us directly but then we don't know who in the congregation/ward/class they do apply to.

I agree with Ripplecutbuddha:

Where I disagree with you is when you say the church is doing it wrong. I think it's up to us as individuals and families to either pay heed to what we know, or to ignore it. It's not like we've never discussed Christ's commandments as a church. I can see you have a great testimony about them, and that's a wonderful thing. What I hope for you is that you don't get upset that others aren't at the same place on the path to Christ as you are.

We've all got our own lessons to learn at our own pace. Insted of getting upset, perhaps try to share your faith with others in an uplifting way that helps them see what you see. This would absolutely be in harmony with everything Christ ever taught.

[Traveler]

Hi all,

My assertion is that the Church is neglecting the gospel, specifically the gospel as outlined in the Book of Mormon.

I think the power of the Book of Mormon is its ability to distil the gospel down to its core components and this is done most powerfully in 3 Nephi. All the books before and after it just deal with different aspects of the same issues.

Christ taught very simply and unambiguously what his doctrine was. He said that his doctrine was to "repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little achild, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God." (3 Ne 11:38) He repeated this instruction three times. He goes on to expand the little child part by giving his instructions for living (Beatitudes, etc) and establishes these as his "commandments".

"Therefore acome unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my bcommandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (3 Ne 12:20)

Yet, consistently, when someone gives a talk on what the Lord's commandments are, we start giving a list of things such as pray, read scriptures, attend our meetings, do our calling, do home teaching, keep the WoW, go to the temple regularly, do our family history, do missionary work, get our food storage ready, go on a mission, go on couples missions. In almost every case, we never actually talk about the commandments that Jesus actually gave.

Jesus' commandments are primarily concerned with how we treat other people. He even devotes a number of verses to how we are to treat our enemies/people we dislike/nasty people. He basically gives a long list of behaviours that most of us would rather not think about because they could make us uncomfortable or require humility and sacrifice on our part.

So why is it that we think that we can instead focus on the other list of stuff (attend meetings, etc) and think that we are on the path to the celestial kingdom? Aren't many of us going to find that we are actually horribly unprepared when the time comes?

Roy

I am confused, Roy. Are you saying that little children will not "pray, read scriptures, attend our meetings, do our calling, do home teaching, keep the WoW, go to the temple regularly, do our family history, do missionary work, get our food storage ready, go on a mission, go on couples missions."

Many "members" have done the repentance and baptism part" and have come as "children" to hear instruction. Now what? Criticize?

My friend Roy - come and rejoice with us. Come and pray with others - and encourage them with your spirit and testimony through your callings and home teaching. Come and fast and sing and help those that need lifting up.

The world and even we LDS have more critics than we need - but we can still use a lot more good examples.

The Traveler

[Martain]

When Jesus was asked which commandments are the greatest he answered as follows:

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Can we not liken verse 40 to 3 Nephi as well in saying that upon the commandments he lists in 3 Nephi likewise hang the rest of the commandments and the prophets?

Yet likewise we can say that though a man may focus on living the greater commandments, he can not do so without living the lesser for they are part of the greater whole.

One example would be the commandment to be humble. Of two men one of which attends his church meetings and the other who does not, which man is humble and being obedient to the commandments given in D&C 59?

The commandment to gather together and worship is simply a way in which we obey the greater laws and develop the attributes we seek.

Of two men one of which goes on a mission and the other who does not, which man is loving his neighbors more?

The oppportunity to go on a mission is simply a way in which we obey the greater laws and develop the attributes we seek.

The same can be said for the reset of those things you list. The fact is that it is necessary for us to be obedient in the little things to inherit the celestial kingdom as well as the greater things. By doing them we are provided opportunities in which we live the greater laws of loving God and loving our neighbors.

Perhaps you can look at it this way. Say the Lord commands you to build a house. This is the commandment. Yet how do you build the house? The Lord then gives you a list of other commandments that will enable you to build the house. This then combined with all other instruction is what the list you gave us is.

Note of caution brother,

“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”(LDS.Org reference)

[jayanna]

Those little things like attending class is where I find out what I need to repent of. I can't repent of something if I don't know that it is a sin. A sin is not being like God, in order to know what sins are, I need to study my scriptures and find out what God is like. Attending class helps me to understand scripture that I might read on my own, but don't comprehend. It is a sin to let my family go hungry because of my lack of planning and preparing, a lesson on family preparedness can help me repent of that sin, and know how to prepare for my children the way the Lord has prepared for me. We might repent of stealing, but if we put ourselves right back into a situation where we are needing to steal food, we have sinned.

In order to repent, we have to pray.

Also, I found that immediately after recieving my endowments in the temple I became much more like my Savior, and more comfortable in an environment where He is likely to be found. I became nicer, more patient, more knowledgeable in teaching the gospel to my children to the point that my husband noticed it and wanted to go get his endowments, too. The temple is where we can recieve that armor of God to help us withstand the fiery darts of the adversary.

As simple as repenting and being baptized may seem, it takes a lifetime. It is not done in one day, that's why the Lord has given us a lifetime to do it. Repenting is not something you do one day, as we learn more about what God is like, we realize we have sinned and again are given the opportunity to repent of that sin and have it washed away.

These little talks you are complaining about, are teaching us how to aviod sin. Repenting means you are sorry that you sinned. To put a sin behind you and not do it again means that you have to know how to not do that sin again.

When Jesus was baptized, it was not the end for Him. It was the beginning of His ministry on the earth. Likewise, baptism is not our ending, it is the beginning of the work He has given us to do. When we can repent and have our sins washed away, like our Savior whose name we take at baptism, we are supposed to share that knowledge of the atonement with others. Like our Savior who we claim as our example, We share the atonement with others while on missions, home teaching, with our children in family home evenings and with the dead in the temple.

All the books before and after.... what? YOu think God gave us too many scriptures? He gave us a LOT of commandments, maybe it's time for you to break down and read those other books that God worked so hard to make a bring forth to you. The first two commandments in no way cancel out the others.

The purpose of the Book of Mormon is not to 'boil down' the gospel. It is to give us the 'fulness' of the gospel which if it could be done in one chapter, He would have done it in one chapter.

[rameumptom]

Roy, while I agree those things are very important (they are the first principles and ordinances of the gospel), they are not the end of things, but only the beginning.

To only read 3 Nephi and neglect the rest is like only playing one octave on a grand piano. Yes, you are hitting some good keys, but missing much of what is possible. 3 Nephi does not directly speak of the temple; would you consider the temple an unnecessary distraction? I do not. In fact the temple prepares us for our own theophany, as does the Book of Mormon. In fact, that is one of the BoM's main themes throughout the book, including 3 Nephi. It would be sad if we missed exaltation, because we were too focused on stopping short of it. We should not allow the good to be the enemy of the best.

[roytucker]

Wow guys, you've obviously got me all worked out.

You think I'm not active?

You think I'm saying not to do any of other things? Don't do your calling?

You think I haven't read the other books of scripture?

And then the note of caution that I'm on the road to apostasy?

Wow. The Saviour really knew what he was talking about.

Peace and love guys.

Roy

[Dove]

Hi Roy;

I think the pure love of Christ is the most important attribute one can posses. Everything else without it is just empty...

I too struggle in environments where I feel criticized, put down, etc.; where I'm supposed to feel safe. It's hard to stay where I feel unwelcome and unloved.

I appreciate that you have read the scriptures as you have. As you probably know, there are oodles of scrips that teach us to not rely on the arm of flesh; but, on God's arm. This is key to me. Developing a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, a lot through prayer and scripture study, so that I can be worthy of His constant companionship.

Love is always key. Love for myself and others. There is no other way.

Take Care

Dove

[RescueMom]

I think I understand what you are trying to say.

I don't think it is the Church that is off. We have been repeatedly told, in very recent General Conferences we must do more than just the mere temple recommend requirements..ie attending meetings, living the WoW, and doing just our callings. The Prophet and Apostles have been saying to do more repeatedly. In the next few months and years they will ask more and more of us, we are now being asked to make this generations sacrifice, just like every generation before. The watchmen are screaming....its up to us to actually do the work.

[rameumptom]

Roy, we don't have you figured out. You've only been here a short time, only posted a couple dozen posts. That doesn't give us much to go on. Personally, I don't think I've read any of your other posts, so that leaves me with the contents of what you wrote. And as it is written, it sounded like you were criticizing, sounded like you were telling us to ignore 9/10 of the BoM, and sounded like you wanted our thoughts on it.

If you share something with strangers, you have to be clear on what you are writing. We cannot tell your whole intent, unless you write it down for us. When you say the "Church is neglecting the gospel" that doesn't leave us with much interpretation outside of the possibility that you are at least mildly condemning the membership, and probably the leadership of the Church. If that is not what you meant, then you need to work on how you phrase things. It is not our responsibility to read your mind. We can only go on what you write. And if you write something you didn't mean, then you are going to have to either clarify or retract or defend what you wrote.

[mikbone]

"Therefore acome unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my bcommandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (3 Ne 12:20)

So why is it that we think that we can instead focus on the other list of stuff (attend meetings, etc) and think that we are on the path to the celestial kingdom? Aren't many of us going to find that we are actually horribly unprepared when the time comes?

Roy

Interesting that you titled your post fulness of the gospel...

As you are quite aware keeping the commandments only gets us entrance into the Terrestrial kingdom. Perhaps you hear everyone else speaking in your local meetings about things like tithing, temple worship, fasting, prayer, home teaching, service because they are shooting for the Celestial Kingdom???

[RescueMom]

Interesting that you titled your post fulness of the gospel...

As you are quite aware keeping the commandments only gets us entrance into the Terrestrial kingdom. Perhaps you hear everyone else speaking in your local meetings about things like tithing, temple worship, fasting, prayer, home teaching, service because they are shooting for the Celestial Kingdom???

I think he is trying to say that tithing, temple work, fasting, prayer, home teaching, service are commandments and aren't quite enough to get us to the Celestial Kingdom, that we have to do more.

I might be off, but that's what I think he is trying to say. I'm not sure what I think about it all, because I think it takes all of that and more....that we have to do more, that more is required, but that is just me. The scripture of not being commanded in all things comes to mind, that to reach the Celestial Kingdom we will have to govern ourselves, choose to do more, to strive to live better than what is commanded. But again that is just me, I could be way off.

[Guest]

I think it's not so much about a checklist of what we do as who we become, and the things we've been given to do are the way Heavenly Father knows that we will become who He knows we can be. If we don't become those people, it will pain us to be in His presence.

[Dove]

I think it's not so much about a checklist of what we do as who we become, and the things we've been given to do are the way Heavenly Father knows that we will become who He knows we can be. If we don't become those people, it will pain us to be in His presence.

Wow, Eowyn, I like your idea in your post. Keeping the commandments is about becoming as much as it is doing....

I think what Ray is trying to say is that our hearts need to be right/pure/good if we are to keep the commandments for the right reasons~ For instance, out of love for our Heavenly Father rather than out of fear of punishment or conforming to what we feel is expected of us.

I think it can be really easy to keep the commandments in a lackadaisical way....just going through the motions and forgetting the purpose in keeping them.

I am reminded of a scripture in 2 Nephi; "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given, And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away."

I always want to be careful not to try and prove my worth and value by how well I keep the commandments. I believe that when I keep the commandments to prove how righteous I am I can become competitive and prideful with others. I believe it is incredibly important to always remember that "we know that Thou (God) art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires." (Ether 3:2)

I do think charity it the most important of all the commandments; which of course is obviously outlined in the N.T. Moroni 7 gives great counsel concerning this gift;

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail-

But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which He has bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ, that ye may become the sons of God; that when He shall appear we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as He is pure..."

This tells me how important it is to acquire charity; either by keeping the commandments as an opportunity to be given this attribute, or to keep the commandments out of having charity......

[gtg166v]

Roy, I am not sure what you are worried about. All is well in Zion.

[Cureloms]

It is not neglect. They know humility is required before we understand Godly Virtues. That is why every other talk is about gratitude, precursor to all other Virtues.