so i dont understand this socializing dating thing....

[kayne]

ok to be clear i mean both socializing and dating two seperate things but sometimes mixed together. isnt dating a form of socializing but socializing isnt always dating.

ok well having now been in utah far far away from home a year and a half.

ive barely managed to make one friend. i kind of made another. we both liked each other( i think) enough to go on two dates. however i am extremely shy quite and anti social but i do still require some level of socializing. coming home and sitting on my butt doing nothing every day isnt great but i dont need to do something EVERY day.

however the first friend is a guy. we get a long we have mostly the same whacky humour and social out cast likings of things. so i can see how this worked out. the only reason ironically is i used to be in charge of cleaning the church and finnally months later of talking to this guy randomly as he always showed up we finnally hung out.

the second friend somehow in this i got friend zoned. how or why i dont know. im a social klutz and lack any knowledge of how or why it failed. how or why we became friends of any kind i dont know. she took a liking to me. i kept wanting to hang out after a month or so yes im slow. i kept getting ditched. i finnally figured out maybe she likes me. so i tried the dating thing and she said yes. a combination of evil end of semester school work an d holidays we didnt go out again until last night. at which point it failed. how or why i dont know. admittely this is severe progress. in the past twelve months ive gone on 4 dates which is 4 more than the past 9 years so perhaps there is some level of progress at least on the dating aspect of socializing being made. making general friends....hmm not so much

but upon thinking about it i realize why not ask a random forum. i dont understand dating. i dont understand socializing. i dont get it. its lost on me. i need a tutorial.

i dont get how people hook up instantly. become best buddies instantly. think of stuff to say so easily. i do no get it. both of these people i am rather quite with. the girl more so than the male friend but still rather quite. you know no one asks me for my number to hang out yet they still socialize and talk to me at say church or FHE or some other nonsense. i say lets do something but nobody follows through with it. yet oddly ill say something odd or something witty at church and people tend to LOVE it. in fact remind me of it months and months later. in fact some have told me i am that guy that says cool things and comments. heck in my family ward back home some people still remeber quite well a talk i gave 6 or 7 years ago....how or why i dont know. and i wouldnt be shocked if there are other talks people remeber but being in a YSA ward which changing members so often i have no idea how true it is or not but as a general rule i dont know why or how people seem to remeber something i say about something. so clearly i have some impact on these people or they are lieing scum. i am sincerely trying not to think of the worst in people but i know that is often proven wrong on a daily basis yet i try regardless.

so i am curious in the world of dating and socializing what is it i am missing besides an outgoing personality that talks a mile a minute. i can clearly breach the first layer of contact with some moderate success. but beyond that im stumped. im slow. and generally do not understand how this people interaction thing works. of my skills socializing is my least developed. its only more pronounced now as i am in a strange far away land from home forced to make new friends and contacts.

you know its weird. its like people are drawn to me. yet i cant develop any meaningful relationship beyond that. like everyone knows who i am but yet i cant get anything special to form out of that. its the most weird and odd thing. its so odd people can remeber i say stuff and i can get the entire ward to somehow know who i am and given how anti social i am that is quite perplexing but developing a friendship or relationship beyond that seems out of reach. i sincerely do not get it.

also i dont do large crowds very well. they drain me which doesnt help. i tend to shut up and become quite rather fast.

so help? a manual? advise? random insults? all welcome. let me know. or just call me crazy one of the two. not sure which.

[Guest]

If you meet someone that you have things in common with and that you might enjoy each others' company, think of something to do together and invite them. Lots of people sit at home wondering why everyone else is hanging out, but never make the move to make plans happen. "Let's do something" and "we should hang out" have become polite, meaningless phrases, much like "how are you" when said in passing. If you want to actually do something with someone, be forward and make the invitation. It's hard, but someone has to make that first step. Helping people and serving in callings and volunteering is also a great way, as you've learned.

There's a gal in my ward who I've known for 6 years and always wondered why we weren't friends. When I finally started calling her, and then inviting her to things, she reciprocated and we've become good friends. She was sitting at home wondering the same thing.

[Dravin]

the second friend somehow in this i got friend zoned. how or why i dont know. im a social klutz and lack any knowledge of how or why it failed. how or why we became friends of any kind i dont know. she took a liking to me. i kept wanting to hang out after a month or so yes im slow. i kept getting ditched. i finnally figured out maybe she likes me. so i tried the dating thing and she said yes. a combination of evil end of semester school work an d holidays we didnt go out again until last night. at which point it failed. how or why i dont know. admittely this is severe progress. in the past twelve months ive gone on 4 dates which is 4 more than the past 9 years so perhaps there is some level of progress at least on the dating aspect of socializing being made. making general friends....hmm not so much

Did you get 'friend zoned' or is she just not interested in you? While I wouldn't completely give up on dating if you are as socially akward you might be better off focusing on learning how to develop friendships and/or dealing with people in social settings. By and large the skills from building and maintaining friendships (and general social skills) transfer to romantic relationships.

i dont get how people hook up instantly. become best buddies instantly. think of stuff to say so easily. i do no get it.

Practice and personalities that tend towards that kind of stuff. There is not requirement to become that kind of person. A level of social fluency is of course a good thing but you don't have to be a 'Chatty Cathy BFF with everyone they see' type person. If you want to become that kind of person there may be things you can do to move in that direction but it's not a given that such is what one must be.

so i am curious in the world of dating and socializing what is it i am missing besides an outgoing personality that talks a mile a minute.

There may not be one answer. To one person you may not have the right sense of humor, to another you aren't an interesting conversationalist (which isn't the same thing as talking a lot) and so on.

i say lets do something but nobody follows through with it.

Do you:

"Hey, lets go bowling sometime." and nothing happens, or do you "Hey, George, Bob, Fred, we should go bowling this Saturday afternoon?" And they ignore you? Say yes but no show? Decline?

its so odd people can remeber i say stuff and i can get the entire ward to somehow know who i am and given how anti social i am that is quite perplexing but developing a friendship or relationship beyond that seems out of reach.

Being remembered and developing a relationship aren't the same thing. I remember a whole lot of people who I don't have a relationship with. Just think of the TV, I can remember what a character did but that doesn't mean I have a relationship with them.

lso i dont do large crowds very well. they drain me which doesnt help.

I don't either, so I avoid them and develop relationships in other venues.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Dravin

[kayne]

Did you get 'friend zoned' or is she just not interested in you? While I wouldn't completely give up on dating if you are as socially akward you might be better off focusing on learning how to develop friendships and/or dealing with people in social settings. By and large the skills from building and maintaining friendships (and general social skills) transfer to romantic relationships.

well since she finnally replied to said text. it seems i did indeed get confused and didnt understand this was all casual dating. then again how should i know. also not being from utah the entire rapid engagements thing confuses me. so casual and serious dating really leave me perplexed in utah especially when stories like my bishops counsler 1st or second dont recall which got engaged after a week and has been married for 20-30 years and stuff like that isnt entirely uncommon in utah. which is cool i can deal with being friends. so perhaps something of value will emerge from this. friend wise anyway. that said still doesnt change my overall confusion on the matter just means i can have it make sense in my head and not ponder the subject endlessly. while our friendship may be salvaged or not dead as i may of thought. still generally confused on the idea. though perhaps going the route of just friends ill open up a bit more since i have developed some level of being comfortable around this person and without the added dating part perhaps ill come out of my shell a little more. we shall see.

also i never intended to give up on dating. i just have no clue what it is about or what it entails. or the charade of dating that exists and why people torment themselves with it.

Practice and personalities that tend towards that kind of stuff. There is not requirement to become that kind of person. A level of social fluency is of course a good thing but you don't have to be a 'Chatty Cathy BFF with everyone they see' type person. If you want to become that kind of person there may be things you can do to move in that direction but it's not a given that such is what one must be.

no i dont intend to be chatty cathy. but i do know the silent lump does get overlooked regardless of said lump containing gold or not. not saying im gold per say but you get my point.

Do you:

"Hey, lets go bowling sometime." and nothing happens, or do you "Hey, George, Bob, Fred, we should go bowling this Saturday afternoon?" And they ignore you? Say yes but no show? Decline?

a combonination really. ive tried all methods. its either ignore me when i text or call. or it is yea thats great but nothing happens following that. my social hangs are usually i happen to stumble across people are they are doing something and just invite myself along which might sound but i dont see it as a problem as these people tend to just try and invite any and everyone along to whatever.

I don't either, so I avoid them and develop relationships in other venues.

well ive yet to figure out how to develop meaningful relationships without traversing through a crowd of some sorts.

There may not be one answer. To one person you may not have the right sense of humor, to another you aren't an interesting conversationalist (which isn't the same thing as talking a lot) and so on.

yes i realize this. but i am not looking to be loved by the world so i can accept that. just attempting to figure out this human connection concept. ive made a lot of self improvement over the last several years. i dont see why i cant improve this aspect of myself to a somewhat functioning level.

Being remembered and developing a relationship aren't the same thing. I remember a whole lot of people who I don't have a relationship with. Just think of the TV, I can remember what a character did but that doesn't mean I have a relationship with them.

true but remebering a person vs a TV show is entirely different. my point was apparently i can make an impact on people so i know i must have some semblance of social skills buried somewhere.

If you meet someone that you have things in common with and that you might enjoy each others' company, think of something to do together and invite them. Lots of people sit at home wondering why everyone else is hanging out, but never make the move to make plans happen. "Let's do something" and "we should hang out" have become polite, meaningless phrases, much like "how are you" when said in passing. If you want to actually do something with someone, be forward and make the invitation. It's hard, but someone has to make that first step. Helping people and serving in callings and volunteering is also a great way, as you've learned.

There's a gal in my ward who I've known for 6 years and always wondered why we weren't friends. When I finally started calling her, and then inviting her to things, she reciprocated and we've become good friends. She was sitting at home wondering the same thing.

i feel like in this post here there is a hidden subject no one wants to discuss. i dont doubt this is the case and many others are like me and that girl you speak of. just nobody knows how to do anything about it. also i find it nonsense those phrases are so pointless but used so much. i really dont get it. i can understand how are you is a passing phrase. but lets do something seems to generally imply i want to be around you and do something. i might enjoy your company. the heck am i supposed to know that means as much as a fake how are you. see the socially confused dont understand this stuff.

[Dravin]

or the charade of dating that exists and why people torment themselves with it.

If you honestly feel dating is a torment it's probably going to bleed through in your interactions. That isn't a good thing. Now it could just be internet hyperbole but if it's how you honestly feel I'd try to wrangle it.

no i dont intend to be chatty cathy. but i do know the silent lump does get overlooked regardless of said lump containing gold or not. not saying im gold per say but you get my point.

My point is you don't have to 'get' how people are Chatty Cathy BFF with everyone people. There is middle ground between socially competent and being the super gregarious person.

well ive yet to figure out how to develop meaningful relationships without traversing through a crowd of some sorts.

Smaller groups. Though maybe we have different idea of what a crowd is. A dance, a party, or even a fireside is a crowd, an Elder's Quorum activity (though if you have a large active Elder's quorum this may be bordering on a crowd), cleaning the building with a handful of other people, service projects with maybe a half dozen people attending, talking with a handful of people before or after class (or a larger activity) is not.

a combonination really. ive tried all methods. its either ignore me when i text or call. or it is yea thats great but nothing happens following that.

If they aren't responding to attempts to nail things down then they're probably not actually interested but just trying to avoid the awkwardness of telling you, "No, I don't want to do something with you." Of course that just moves the awkward to a future time but people are kinda short sighted like that, particularly people pleasers or people who have a hard time saying no.

my point was apparently i can make an impact on people so i know i must have some semblance of social skills buried somewhere.

Okay. I was reading you as, 'They remember me, why isn't this leading to relationships?"

the heck am i supposed to know that means as much as a fake how are you.

The same way you are supposed to know "How are you?" isn't a genuine inquiry into the history of your goiter but a social pleasantry. Ultimately social skills are learned through immersion in a culture and observation. We can give you advice and point out that sometimes it's a genuine (if not burning) willingness/interest in spending time with/around you, sometimes it's a social pleasantry, and that sometimes it's someone avoiding telling you "No." but it's all but nigh impossible to communicate how to distinguish the difference (and even highly socially skilled people can't always tell). Learning to tell the difference is going to come from experience and observation.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Dravin
Removed a redundancy.

[Colirio]

Hobby.

Get one.

If you already have one, get another one that forces you to physically go somewhere and associate with others.

Martial arts classes, dance classes, etc. Pick something you have always wanted to do. Maybe even something you've been afraid to try!

You'll have fun and will soon find something you LOVE to do.

When you have something you love to do, *boom*! Instant conversation with another person who enjoys similar hobbies.

To summarize:

Go and do the things that YOU want to do. When you find someone there doing the same things, *boom*! Instant friendship, love, antagonist.... All sorts of fun!

[Guest]

Someone suggested meetup.com on another thread. Even though I'm married and too busy already, I looked at the groups for my town. There's a HUGE gamer's group. I joined a very active hiking group. They go on at least one small hike every day. DH and I have wanted to take up hiking again for a long time, and when we can get out with or without the kids to join them, we'll be able to go with people who know the local trails well. I've joined their chat forums and have met a couple of people who seem really nice and interesting and I'll be happy to meet them someday soon.

Check it out. You might find some like-minded people to hang out with, do some things you like, and practice your socializing on.

[kayne]

If you honestly feel dating is a torment it's probably going to bleed through in your interactions. That isn't a good thing. Now it could just be internet hyperbole but if it's how you honestly feel I'd try to wrangle it.

hmm yes the general get to know people phase bugs me. i tire of the where are you from. whats your major. whats your name. what are the other 10 basic facts about you. dating has a certain similar aspect to it. for instance date 1 would never be a 5 star resturant with an engagement ring. there is a certain order to it. i do admit and i am really trying to work on it but i hate eye to eye contact. a sad relic to my younger days where i saw nothing but a terrible horrible ugly person inside and i hated looking at that person in a mirror much less fully showing said person to another. i know that is ONE problem but i am really trying to work on it. a combination of that and i the its the same old drill with each new person tires me out and gets to me. sure i might care eventually you are from a certain place but its not the first thing i care to know about.

on this note....due to a number of horrible choices ive made in the past. i have a rather off color humour. and i can go into great detail about drug use or stealing or pushing 350 pound men upstairs because they are drunk and need a bed then making them clean up puke on the carpet in the morning. here in utah it seems especially hinting at such things has resulted in a silent stiff arm of sorts. or you like R rated movies lets quitely whisper about it now. i admit some of this is culture shock but some of it generally i become cautious well gee people tend to not like these things so i end up concealing this stuff so i never really ever truely be myself. i suppose i really should just say to heck with it. i suppose i might from now. it is a learning experience. afterall. you know i know people screw up and do this stuff it just seems no one has the nuts to admit it which makes relating to people difficult not saying you need to be an ex druggie but i hate the new people meeting charade. we all put on our best faces if we dont its often met with are you telling me this so soon.

My point is you don't have to 'get' how people are Chatty Cathy BFF with everyone people. There is middle ground between social competent and being the super comfortable gregarious person. So I think when all is said and done while you can and should seek advice the true learning is gonna be in the field so to speak. This is a prime example, we can tell you that sometimes people are expressing a real (if not overwhelming) willingness/interest to spend some time with you and that sometimes they're just making use of a social pleasantry or avoiding saying no, and we can even try to give you some pointers in figuring out the difference (though doing so would be devilishly difficult) but ultimately learning to know the difference will happen in the trenches.

If they aren't responding to attempts to nail things down then they're probably not actually interested but just trying to avoid the awkwardness of telling you, "No, I don't want to do something with you." Of course that just moves the awkward to a future time but people are kinda short sighted like that, particularly people pleasers or people who have a hard time saying no.

i realize this. but any pointers would be more than welcome. i am odd in that if i dont want to see you or speak to you i dont. i dont put up a pleasant fake hello. i just avoid it all together. likewise if i have any intention of speaking to you i do so or i come around you whether i am highly talkative at the moment or not is beside the point. i realize this is the exact opposite of nearly everyone i run across. i loathe fake greetings and pleasantries. yes i am odd what you see is what you get perhaps i dont show you the full me but you still see me it is rarely fake. i mean there is a certain level of disclosure involved here.

bottom line is. if we are introducing ourselves it should be obvious by the fact weve never met.

if you want to speak to me do so. if it is just a casual greeting then leave it at that maybe a joke or two and move on. if we desire something more than that then make it known otherwise continue on with our casual greeting ritual.

if you dont then dont bug me with a fake hello.

thats how i conduct my business.

that said that is why i simply stop trying and move on but remain confused.

Smaller groups. Though maybe we have different idea of what a crowd is. A dance, a party, or even a fireside is a crowd, an Elder's Quorum activity (though if you have a large active Elder's quorum this may be bordering on a crowd), cleaning the building with a handful of other people, service projects with maybe a half dozen people attending, talking with a handful of people before or after class (or a larger activity).

my point is rarely do you meet someone in a strict 1 on 1 sense. it is almost always in some group. i do suppose you and i differ on what we mean by crowd. for me anything more than 4 or 5 people hanging out together is a crowd. and if any one of those or more than 1 of them is loud enough ill get that overwhelming feeling of uncomfortableness or rather my energy turns from socializing to you have an hour before you need to recharge. if i am comfortable with one or two of them then perhaps it isnt so bad. and in really large crowds where people break into groups ill usually navigate to a smaller sect.

Okay. I was reading you as, 'They remember me, why isn't this leading to relationships?"

well i am doing that too. but it was be more accurate to say it is a mix of both.

The same way you are supposed to know "How are you?" isn't a genuine inquiry into the history of your goiter but a social pleasantry. Ultimately social skills are learned through immersion in a culture and observation.

well again in my head if i ask the question the normally care so it tends to bug me when others ask this fake question. how or why i learned "how are you" is a fake question is only due to my time working in retail for too many years one of the biggest arguements i always had with the bosses was i didnt care how they were but i just did it to please them people would shop here because again i prefer not to ask fake questions. but i guess i just never learned all the other fake questions.

Someone suggested meetup.com on another thread. Even though I'm married and too busy already, I looked at the groups for my town. There's a HUGE gamer's group. I joined a very active hiking group. They go on at least one small hike every day. DH and I have wanted to take up hiking again for a long time, and when we can get out with or without the kids to join them, we'll be able to go with people who know the local trails well. I've joined their chat forums and have met a couple of people who seem really nice and interesting and I'll be happy to meet them someday soon.

Check it out. You might find some like-minded people to hang out with, do some things you like, and practice your socializing on.

i make no promises but ill check it out. thanks

Hobby.

Get one.

If you already have one, get another one that forces you to physically go somewhere and associate with others.

Martial arts classes, dance classes, etc. Pick something you have always wanted to do. Maybe even something you've been afraid to try!

You'll have fun and will soon find something you LOVE to do.

When you have something you love to do, *boom*! Instant conversation with another person who enjoys similar hobbies.

To summarize:

Go and do the things that YOU want to do. When you find someone there doing the same things, *boom*! Instant friendship, love, antagonist.... All sorts of fun!

true. i used to have a number of a hobbies but unfortunently out here when i moved they didnt all carry over. whether it is time money or something else. i have considered this for a while though. i simply havent tried anything new yet im not sure why. i really ought too.

Edited January 14, 2012 by beefche

[Bini]

Can't respond well on my iPhone so I'll reply to your latest post later but just FYI there are certain chat lingo acronyms not tolerated on LDS.net.

[Gramajane]

So, were your parents the type that have friends over and go to their homes? In other words did you have good role models? Mine didn't, and it has effected me.

I have tons of acquaintances and people I feel closer to, but so rarely have time together with unless we are working on some project for the church or community. My best friends have been in my own family, my sisters and my husband (whom I began with as a pen pal and only met about 6 months later).

I had only one guy in my high school ask me on a date, and it was to a church function (not LDS) where they were to bring someone not in their church, and I went and had fun, but he never asked me out again, I really really liked him too, even before he asked me out.

I dated in college finally, but nothing serious. I think I was trying too hard to be perfect, and I didn't really know how to be me. I learned better over time, but ironically dated mostly non members, as I was too scared around the "eligible" LDS guys.

In letters though, I could be, even with members, which is how I got to know the wonderful guy I have been married to for over 40 years!

My parents both had issues with self esteem (which apparently slopped over onto me) and I just didn't know how to act. I used movies (thank goodness back then they were not so bad!) to help me have a clue, but I was pretty awkward in social settings for sure!

Both my parents were college grads but that is no cure for social awkwardness.

I have since learned about Augsburgers (sp?) which is a type of autism, and there are levels in that too, where social things especially are difficult. I had one person tell me that they thought I might have a little challenge with that. (we are all on some level of dysfunction) but she later changed her mind, when I apologized to her for something, as she had thought when I hadn't realized she had given me a bonus in my check, so I hadn't thanked her, that I didn't have feelings of gratitude etc.

(she didn't know me very well)

I didn't keep good track of my hours relating to pay, and just knew she was honest, so didn't worry.

---- Anyway, I usually have tons of stuff I am working on, and I love to serve in the church etc (I make costumes especially castle time ones, and I love to do interior decoration ((my favorite aerobic activity is moving furniture ;0 )) and I super enjoy reading plus I answer anti challenges :) ---Mormon Voices is way cool way to serve!

--- so since I have my family, and our kids and our 17 grand kids, I have built in friends :)

I think you will figure out what you need to do and asking others for advice is a great start!

[Dravin]

we all put on our best faces if we dont its often met with are you telling me this so soon.

Because there are social expectations of levels of disclosure based on the relationship we have with people. If you don't have a general feel for what these levels are then I recommend you follow the lead of those around you (and to make things even more fun it varies per person even if there are some general societal ideas floating out there and if two people are close friends using their level of disclosure when you are an acquaintance will cause problems so you'll have to decode who is at an approximate relationship level as yourself to others). If in response to a simple, "How are you doing?" you are responding with something more than expected by context, circumstance, and the clues into how deep the question is, you are crossing boundaries. Crossing boundaries makes people uncomfortable, people don't like to feel uncomfortable, they will avoid you (some more obviously than others).

And it's the little details, the pleasantries of where you are from, and what your major is, that you feel a little under the weather but otherwise okay, that can build to the more impactful stuff (I stress can, not does). You seem to understand that (even if not intuitively) but I just wanted to reinforce it.

thats how i conduct my business.

Be that as it may it is not how everyone else is operating, not everyone treats any given question as only having one implication (or even statement). You seem to clearly recognize that people don't conduct their business how you do, the next step is to stop operating as if everyone behaves as you do. You're essentially in China complaining that people are speaking Chinese not English. It may be frustrating to learn Chinese but it is what you are going to have to do if you want the social aptitude and relationships you claim to desire.

I realize you're here to ask how to speak Chinese as it were but here is the thing, your words say one thing, "I want to learn how to interact with and enjoy people." Your tone and tenor of your posts scream another one, "I hate interacting with people. Stay away! Stay away! Stay away!." If this comes through in your face to face communications with people they will (usually) be polite as society expects and then stay the heck away from someone who comes across as a misanthrope. It's a negative energy and people, as a general rule, tend to stay away from negative energies.

There are two levels of communication, one is what people say and the other is how people say it. Based on your statements here you appear to have difficulty with the latter. I'm unsure though if it's a case of you can't read the subtext and additional layer to the words coming out of people's mouths, or if you can read them but you just don't understand them. This is a double whammy as not only does it interfere with incoming communication but it'll interfere with outgoing communication too. It's possible you are shooting off signals without either realizing it or you think you are shooting off A but everyone else is seeing B. For instance you have stated you don't care about the pleasantries of where someone is from, or what their major is. If those questions bore/bug/frustrate/annoy you and it comes through in your demeanor people aren't going to be reading it as disinterest in small talk they are going to be reading it as disinterest in them.

well i am doing that too. but it was be more accurate to say it is a mix of both.

Well the expectation that being remembered will lead to relationships is one you need to quash. In normal social interaction being remembered isn't the same thing as building a relationship, and while if someone develops a relationship with you they'll remember you the reverse doesn't apply. I remember quite a few people, I even think of them as X (pick adjective of choice) and remember things they've said or done but I don't have a relationship with these people. School is a good example, I chat a little with people next to where I sit or before entering the classroom. I remember them, what they look like, name, some details about their life (such as major, hobbies, and the like), and even think of them as pleasant/neat/insightful/smart/what have you. I have pretty much no relationship with them nor do I desire to build a relationship with them.

Also being remembered doesn't mean you have social skills. Socially award people are probably more easy to remember not less because they are different and that sticks out. Not to say you don't have a certain level of social skills but the thinking, "These folks are remembering me, it must mean I've got some social skills going on for them to do so." doesn't hold up. That they remember you positively is more indicative but the issue is are they remembering you positively from social interactions? A talk, or say insightful answers in Gospel Doctrine, aren't really social interaction even though they tend to drain social battery reserves.

well again in my head if i ask the question the normally care so it tends to bug me when others ask this fake question.

It's not so much a fake question, as it's just not as literal/deep as you take it. Here is the issue, these people (baring those trying to avoid saying no) aren't being fake, they are operating within societal expectations and rules of social interaction. "How are you?" or even "We should hang out some time." have different implications based on who says them, where they say them, and how they say them (phrasing, tone, and body language). If you treat them as if a given phrase has only one possible meaning you will consistently fail to comprehend what people are communicating. It's like treating any bark a dog makes as indicative of the same thing regardless of the type of bark.

This is probably frustrating to you, as you are probably less interested in how things work than you are in some sort of list of rules to follow or an algorithm that can be applied to people to decode what they mean into 'plain speak'. Thing is, the subtle tones, the body language, the word choice, all that nuance to communication is something that is extremely difficult to communicate in a medium such as this (because other than word choice these things are absent). The best would be to show you but that can't be done here. If you can wrangle someone more socially apt into it you could try asking them to demonstrate for you, you might be able to note some commonalities. Though commonalities are gonna be the best you can get, people communicate differently. How person A delivers something with a particular subtext will be different than how person B does even if both can read each other just fine. Communication is fuzzy, there really isn't a way around that.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Dravin

[Vort]

"How are you?" is a sort of social idiom. It does not mean, "Please describe to me how you are feeling." Rather, it means, "Hello." The appropriate response in almost all situations is, "Fine, thanks. How are you?" The only exceptions are if you are dealing with an actual emergency or if you are in a situation where you cannot take the time to chat, in which case a response of "Actually, I'm a bit rushed at the moment" is sufficient.

If you memorize this format and always remember that in 95% of the cases, "How are you?" is a social idiom and not a real question, you will be fine.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Vort

[Vort]

well again in my head if i ask the question the normally care so it tends to bug me when others ask this fake question. how or why i learned "how are you" is a fake question is only due to my time working in retail for too many years one of the biggest arguements i always had with the bosses was i didnt care how they were but i just did it to please them people would shop here because again i prefer not to ask fake questions. but i guess i just never learned all the other fake questions.

The fact that you call "How are you?" a fake question is very telling. You consider saying such a thing to be dishonest. Your mindset is: "I am willing to be honest enough to ask and care about the answer to this question, or else not to ask it at all if I don't care. Why aren't other people as honest as I am?"

But you are mistaken. This is not a question of honesty; it is a question of social and linguistic convention. "How are you?" is a sort of social idiom. It does not mean, "Please describe to me how you are feeling." Rather, it means, "Hello." The appropriate response in almost all situations is, "Fine, thanks. How are you?" The only exceptions are if you are dealing with an actual emergency or if you are in a situation where you cannot take the time to chat, in which case a response of "Actually, I'm a bit rushed at the moment" is sufficient.

It's as if someone said, "I want a lot of ice cream," and you responded, "Don't be absurd! What would you do with an entire LOT of ice cream? The population of New York City could not eat an entire lot's worth of ice cream before it all melted! Do you even have some place to put it? And where do you think you would procure all the cream needed to make such a ridiculous amount of ice cream? How would you handle refrigeration to produce it? Do you think there are big enough ice cream makers to produce a city lot's worth of ice cream in a reasonable time frame? Seriously, that is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard! A 'lot' of ice cream! Pshhh! Yeah, right!"

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate...

Linguistic and social idioms. Learn them. Love them. Live them.

Just practice the formula. "How are you?" "Fine, thanks. And you?" It's not hard at all, once you get the hang of it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Vort

[JudoMinja]

Well Kayne, I'm a bit of an anti-social bug myself and I can tell you that the only way to improve in this (or anything for that matter) is through practice. Practice, practice, practice. Also- study through a medium that is more comfortable to you, so that you can test things out in your practice.

For example- The reason I tend to be a bit socially awkward is because I never really cared much for socializing as a child. Getting to know other people just wasn't one of my priorities. I was more interested in reading books and learning about animals. Because I liked learning about animals so much though, I was able to make comparisons between what I learned about animal behavior and communication and that of human behavior and communication. When I reached a point where I felt like I wanted to spend more time around other people and was getting kind of lonely and bored by myself, I started reading up on psychology and sociology.

I'm still socially awkward, but its not for lack of understanding. It's because I haven't really put myself out there and practiced a whole lot. I talk freely with most of my co-workers, but sometimes it's hard for me to tell if they're really interested in what we're talking about or if they're just maintaining the conversation for my sake, and I haven't quite figured out how to make the step from aquaintence to friend (or how to tell if I've already done so). The few people I do claim as close friends are all individuals who were very outgoing and approached me about forming a friendship- not the other way around.

At church, socializing is harder for me, mostly because I'm just not good at sticking around long enough for casual interactions. This is why my practice has been limited, and I could do better if I'd slow down a bit at church services and take more interest in the other people there instead of just coming for the lessons and leaving. I just haven't cared enough to do it, mostly comfortable with the amount of social interaction I already get and friends I already have.

There's really nothing wrong with being anti-social, as long as you aren't finding yourself hurting for companionship because of it. While this means dating goes a bit slower for me, I'm okay with that. Like you, I tend to feel like the formalities of getting to know people can be "fake" or "scripted", but because I'm comfortable being anti-social that only bothers me on days I'm feeling impatient. I think part of the reason it feels that way when dating is considered, is because people are trying so hard to skip over friendship and jump right into a "dating" relationship. I'd rather go through the slow process of making friends and eventually find a spouse that way than have a bunch of uncomfortable, social-awkward, scripted dates with people.

Since I'm the kind of person that prefers few friends over many friends, that means I'll just have to be patient as far as a future marriage is concerned - as I don't see a need to make myself unduly uncomfortable just to find somebody. Of course, I'm not going to hide away and expect myself to be "found". I'm going to put myself out there, but in settings that are less awkward for me- like church YSA activities, joining clubs or other activities that interest me, and not overloading myself. See, some people find social activities work as a "reboot" of sorts and help fill them with energy lost through the stress of the day, while others (and this is me) find social activities draining and need time to themselves in order to reboot. I'm comfortable with this fact about myself, and am perfectly okay with avoiding what for me would be too much socializing.

It sounds like you need to reach a point where you can likewise become comfortable with yourself and your social ineptitude. Figure out how much socializing gets you where you feel comfortable and how much is too much. Practice, practice, practice. The more you get out there and do it, the better you'll get. Either you want to understand it and learn to be more social, or you don't. It doesn't really go both ways, so either build enough interest in yourself to pick up on the subtleties and learn how to use them yourself or become comfortable with where you currently are socially.

[FunnySheila]

I understand your perplexities with the whole social/dating thing.

I didn't have a social life growing up (like at all) and both me and my brother have the same problem with having to now learn as adults how to connect with other people socially let alone the whole "dating" thing.

I don't do crowds well neither. Church is fine, but when it comes to social get-to-togethers of women for example with say 5-6 women, I just start to feel suffocated and can't seem to make conversation. I'm fine however with say 2 or 3 friends hanging out, but more than that and I feel like I have no idea where I fit in or how I'm supposed to interact so I tend to "not" interact at all.

I still don't get alot of the social norms that most people take for granted... such as women sitting around talking about their husband's noses for hours on end or what not... aren't there more interesting things in life than that? I don't know. But I am getting better at it.

I guess it's a learning process for some of us. I have to say though, I used to be really bad at socializing, but am getting much better at it where I have 8 or so really good friends. So keep trying, it does get easier.

[kayne]

i appreciate the replies. i will reply back in a little while. i oddly enough i got extremely sick for the past 10 or 11 days. and didnt take priority in replying here. though the advice given seems well thought out. ill reread it and reply back and ponder it later.

at the moment i have homework to get to so ill have to reply a little later.

but thanks for the seemingly well written out replies.

[kayne]

But you are mistaken. This is not a question of honesty; it is a question of social and linguistic convention. "How are you?" is a sort of social idiom. It does not mean, "Please describe to me how you are feeling." Rather, it means, "Hello." The appropriate response in almost all situations is, "Fine, thanks. How are you?" The only exceptions are if you are dealing with an actual emergency or if you are in a situation where you cannot take the time to chat, in which case a response of "Actually, I'm a bit rushed at the moment" is sufficient.

exactly this right here bugs me. everyone says they are fine. its boring tedious and repetituous. perhaps that is a bad way of looking at it but by the 20th round of it i really really dont care. because what follows is more often than not odd silence unless one of us says something else. we stand there oddly for a few moments before one of us leaves. i guess my main problem is the following odd ok what do i say now part....

The fact that you call "How are you?" a fake question is very telling. You consider saying such a thing to be dishonest. Your mindset is: "I am willing to be honest enough to ask and care about the answer to this question, or else not to ask it at all if I don't care. Why aren't other people as honest as I am?"

yea i hate double meanings sometimes...ive never quite understood human greeting rituals. ive just learned to kind of deal with them. though i'd like to completely figure them out someday or another

It's as if someone said, "I want a lot of ice cream," and you responded, "Don't be absurd! What would you do with an entire LOT of ice cream? The population of New York City could not eat an entire lot's worth of ice cream before it all melted! Do you even have some place to put it? And where do you think you would procure all the cream needed to make such a ridiculous amount of ice cream? How would you handle refrigeration to produce it? Do you think there are big enough ice cream makers to produce a city lot's worth of ice cream in a reasonable time frame? Seriously, that is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard! A 'lot' of ice cream! Pshhh! Yeah, right!"

epic exagerrated example. but i suppose applies lol. ill try and remeber that

Because there are social expectations of levels of disclosure based on the relationship we have with people. If you don't have a general feel for what these levels are then I recommend you follow the lead of those around you (and to make things even more fun it varies per person even if there are some general societal ideas floating out there and if two people are close friends using their level of disclosure when you are an acquaintance will cause problems so you'll have to decode who is at an approximate relationship level as yourself to others). If in response to a simple, "How are you doing?" you are responding with something more than expected by context, circumstance, and the clues into how deep the question is, you are crossing boundaries. Crossing boundaries makes people uncomfortable, people don't like to feel uncomfortable, they will avoid you (some more obviously than others).

And it's the little details, the pleasantries of where you are from, and what your major is, that you feel a little under the weather but otherwise okay, that can build to the more impactful stuff (I stress can, not does). You seem to understand that (even if not intuitively) but I just wanted to reinforce it.

yea i can see that. i just dont always know how to follow through beyond that. part of that of course is i dont open up rather fast or quickly. also yea body language....i dont completely get it either i guess. i guess this will require some changing of my mindset a tad to navigate through people better and more easily.

There are two levels of communication, one is what people say and the other is how people say it. Based on your statements here you appear to have difficulty with the latter. I'm unsure though if it's a case of you can't read the subtext and additional layer to the words coming out of people's mouths, or if you can read them but you just don't understand them. This is a double whammy as not only does it interfere with incoming communication but it'll interfere with outgoing communication too. It's possible you are shooting off signals without either realizing it or you think you are shooting off A but everyone else is seeing B. For instance you have stated you don't care about the pleasantries of where someone is from, or what their major is. If those questions bore/bug/frustrate/annoy you and it comes through in your demeanor people aren't going to be reading it as disinterest in small talk they are going to be reading it as disinterest in them.

you know this probably is the problem here. i hadnt quite thought of it like that before. i suppose i need to figure out to at least fake it. this would much easier if i was still a master of lieing....but i have for better or worse kicked that habit. i suppose at one time i could convince people i gave a crap rather easily. to prove the point i was with my best friend and his brother. we were playing cards. i got his brother to go take a box that i was stealing to the car. my best friends was unaware of this. well a little bit later the kid we robbed was complaining about it though unaware it was me or my friends brother. so i made a special point of staring my best friend dead straight in the eyes and telling him nope i didnt do it because he knowing me knows i have stolen stuff in the past. my point is i used to be able to fake care these interactions but upon cleaning myself up i went the polar opposite and simply forgot how to go through these things. and i have a hard time really caring about someone i just meant on any meaningful level. i suppose i should work on faking it a little at first and maybe actually caring rather than going to one polar extreme or the other.

just not sure how to change my mentality honestly but i guess there is always trial and error?

This is probably frustrating to you, as you are probably less interested in how things work than you are in some sort of list of rules to follow or an algorithm that can be applied to people to decode what they mean into 'plain speak'. Thing is, the subtle tones, the body language, the word choice, all that nuance to communication is something that is extremely difficult to communicate in a medium such as this (because other than word choice these things are absent). The best would be to show you but that can't be done here. If you can wrangle someone more socially apt into it you could try asking them to demonstrate for you, you might be able to note some commonalities. Though commonalities are gonna be the best you can get, people communicate differently. How person A delivers something with a particular subtext will be different than how person B does even if both can read each other just fine. Communication is fuzzy, there really isn't a way around that.

you know this probably exactly what is happening and aside from the fellow odd duck here and there everyone else sees me giving off B when i intending to give off A. well the only socially non clueless person i know is that aforementioned girl in this thread. i was pondering apologizing for being appearing so disinterested and shy and what not and explaining this is something i am trying to figure out myself. this may actually help me personally. may help our friendship or perhaps relationship if there was something possibly there(im fairly certain there was this was made even more blantantly obvious the other when we were hanging out me her and another girl....and the other girl dropped quite a literal hint. point blank saying someone in the ward has a crush on you and kept mentioning me working my way up over there. this information did not come from me obviously so either senseless rumors or came from her. though its not the first subtle random rumor of that nature ive heard before so...so somehow the fact i like her got out and it wasnt me...see im not totally socially clueless right???? there is hope lol) and depending how this apology/talk goes i may ask her why not right though depends really where this conversation goes? i think me and her are at a reasonable standing in our relationship(not to be confused with being a couple just meaning two people's standing with each other) and enjoy each others company. either way i am about to murder this horribly or succeed unexpectedly well i am hope and expecting to succeed but we shall see eh?

i will admit some of my problem is the years of porn completely mangled my ability to connect with people. especially females. not that porn is a problem anymore but lasting effects are there sadly science and personal experience have confirmed porn images stick in the brain forever i can sadly recall some very old porn files i viewed with great clarity and depth. still trying to recover this skill. also i spent the past several years mostly isolating myself....one cant get over pot while seeing stoners every day so i mastered the art of telling people off and completely lost the art of forming relationships and now i am stuck trying to refigure it out. i know i can interact with females two of my best friends ive made over the years(not best friends anymore) were women so....i know this not beyond me and i have been a long relationship in the past....so i know i have this skill somewhere its just been mangled.

It's not so much a fake question, as it's just not as literal/deep as you take it. Here is the issue, these people (baring those trying to avoid saying no) aren't being fake, they are operating within societal expectations and rules of social interaction. "How are you?" or even "We should hang out some time." have different implications based on who says them, where they say them, and how they say them (phrasing, tone, and body language). If you treat them as if a given phrase has only one possible meaning you will consistently fail to comprehend what people are communicating. It's like treating any bark a dog makes as indicative of the same thing regardless of the type of bark.

ah subltities....always nice. yea im sure those are currently lost on me. and i can figure out different types of barks primarly because i tended to bond with the dog well enough to figure out.

I still don't get alot of the social norms that most people take for granted... such as women sitting around talking about their husband's noses for hours on end or what not... aren't there more interesting things in life than that? I don't know. But I am getting better at it.

ya know i just dont get this...even if its playing video games i need to be doing something. also i hate drama with a burning passion perhaps this is why i dont get it?

I don't do crowds well neither. Church is fine, but when it comes to social get-to-togethers of women for example with say 5-6 women, I just start to feel suffocated and can't seem to make conversation. I'm fine however with say 2 or 3 friends hanging out, but more than that and I feel like I have no idea where I fit in or how I'm supposed to interact so I tend to "not" interact at all.

also me....though i am a male. so 5-6 women is even more awkward.

I didn't have a social life growing up (like at all) and both me and my brother have the same problem with having to now learn as adults how to connect with other people socially let alone the whole "dating" thing.

the problem i think is reverse for me. i had a social life and got it. then i moved when i was 10 and had to make all new friends. i think this is the beginning of my shyness really taking hold. but i managed to get by. by 6th grade and onwards i had my crowd of people i hung with. and managed to make plenty of friends. however over time i realized smoking pot stealing and being a royal screw up wasnt the path i wanted. so i cut off a large chunk of these people. maintained with friendship with like two or three people. and in order to overcome the vast array of problems needed to get my temple garments i ended up mastering the art of cutting people out of my life. so i am now 27 trying to relearn it. ive been in utah for a year and half now but i am just now realizing i should problem figure this socializing dating thing out. sad i know. oddly enough in all of my groups of friends ive had ive always been the dominate one. the one that usually determines what we do and dont do.i got people to want to hang around me. i just havent a clue how i did that and how to replicate this is on any level.

you know what judominja? you sound exactly like me quite scarey actually except as i explained above i went from somewhat social to not social lol. if your in your 20s and female match made in heaven here lol.

[JudoMinja]

exactly this right here bugs me. everyone says they are fine. its boring tedious and repetituous. perhaps that is a bad way of looking at it but by the 20th round of it i really really dont care. because what follows is more often than not odd silence unless one of us says something else. we stand there oddly for a few moments before one of us leaves. i guess my main problem is the following odd ok what do i say now part....

Just some more thoughts I have on the whole "How are you?" "I'm fine, how are you?" greeting-

If both respond with the standard "I'm fine", that meets the social expectations for politeness while working as a signal that for whatever reason you are not interested in moving the conversation any further. So, the awkwardness you are experiencing is probably because you gave this standard response, but would like to continue the conversation with something more meaningful.

If you would like to pursue a conversation, then when someone asks "How are you?" a better response than "I'm fine" would be something more "honest" and detailed, but not too detailed. Give them a little tid-bit as to how you are feeling or how your day is going, and if they are also interested in pursuing the conversation, they will latch onto it and either share something from their end or ask you questions so that you can extrapolate. If they are not interested, they will say something to again meet the standards of politeness but get out of the conversation.

yea i hate double meanings sometimes...ive never quite understood human greeting rituals. ive just learned to kind of deal with them. though i'd like to completely figure them out someday or another...

yea i can see that. i just dont always know how to follow through beyond that. part of that of course is i dont open up rather fast or quickly. also yea body language....i dont completely get it either i guess. i guess this will require some changing of my mindset a tad to navigate through people better and more easily.

I don't remember the exact percentages, but a huge amount of our communication is through body language while only a small amount is the actual words we use. Understanding the subtlties, double-meanings, hints, etc. will require studying body language, facial expressions, eye contact, etc. I think this is why it is easier for me to understand what people are communicating and pick up on the subtleties you seem to be missing- because my background in studying animals made it easier for me to recognize this body language.

Animals are also big on body language, especically our pets when trying to communicate with us. They can't speak English, so they have to get their point across somehow, and all their signals are ampllified. I pick up on animal signals so easily that I can usually identify what they are communicating without even realizing how I know, but it's because I've practiced. If I want to gain that same famiiliarity with people, I need to practice more with them.

One thing I can tell you is that there is always going to be a combination of factors working together in order to communicate something. The more you can identify and understand these multiple signals, the better you will understand the overall message being conveyed. You may even find yourself identifiying the "hidden" signals that communicate things people aren't really trying to tell you. This can sometimes help, because you may pick up on how someone is feeling without them coming out and telling you- and if you bring it up and show interest this person will be more likely to start a conversation with you, as noticing it is a sign you care.

you know this probably is the problem here. i hadnt quite thought of it like that before. i suppose i need to figure out to at least fake it. this would much easier if i was still a master of lieing....but i have for better or worse kicked that habit. i suppose at one time i could convince people i gave a crap rather easily. to prove the point i was with my best friend and his brother. we were playing cards. i got his brother to go take a box that i was stealing to the car. my best friends was unaware of this. well a little bit later the kid we robbed was complaining about it though unaware it was me or my friends brother. so i made a special point of staring my best friend dead straight in the eyes and telling him nope i didnt do it because he knowing me knows i have stolen stuff in the past. my point is i used to be able to fake care these interactions but upon cleaning myself up i went the polar opposite and simply forgot how to go through these things. and i have a hard time really caring about someone i just meant on any meaningful level. i suppose i should work on faking it a little at first and maybe actually caring rather than going to one polar extreme or the other.

just not sure how to change my mentality honestly but i guess there is always trial and error?

If you think of it as faking or lying, that is just going to make it harder. While I often feel like surface interactions are "fake", they aren't really. People communicate many things through their simple and "boring" conversations that has far more to do with the words they are saying or topics they are discussing. How much you engage will depend on how much interest you are able to build in yourself. I can get a relationship to that halfway point between associate and friend with no problem, because I can understand the subtlties of greetings and body language well enough to do so. The "small talk" that makes up the next step though is more complicated and where I tend to get lost, because I really have no interest in small talk, and I'm not skilled enough at picking up on the under-the-surface communications they entail.

All of my friendships kind of skipped over this phase. I found myself engage in settings or with people who were extroverted enough that small talk wasn't necessary. The best way to skip over this is to get invovled in things where you have to be active. The activity itself helps form a bond and gives you a shared interest to talk about that can be deeper and more meaningful than small talk.

the problem i think is reverse for me. i had a social life and got it. then i moved when i was 10 and had to make all new friends. i think this is the beginning of my shyness really taking hold. but i managed to get by. by 6th grade and onwards i had my crowd of people i hung with. and managed to make plenty of friends. however over time i realized smoking pot stealing and being a royal screw up wasnt the path i wanted. so i cut off a large chunk of these people. maintained with friendship with like two or three people. and in order to overcome the vast array of problems needed to get my temple garments i ended up mastering the art of cutting people out of my life. so i am now 27 trying to relearn it. ive been in utah for a year and half now but i am just now realizing i should problem figure this socializing dating thing out. sad i know. oddly enough in all of my groups of friends ive had ive always been the dominate one. the one that usually determines what we do and dont do.i got people to want to hang around me. i just havent a clue how i did that and how to replicate this is on any level.

I think it is only the truly extroverted people that don't have trouble making "new" friends. We all make friends easily when we are younger and tend to hold on to those friendships for a long long time, IF we stick around those friends and continue to do things together. The friendship usually doesn't start falling apart until we start coming of age and separating because of our different interests. The fact that you moved as a child and had to make all new friends meant you had to work hard to step into already solid friendships and re-establish yourself. I moved quite a bit growing up, and I think this is why I lost interest in socializing- it was too hard to keep forming new friendships over and over and there were other things to capture my interest that I could engage in.

Making new friends is a very slow process without something to help facilitate it. This is kind of the purpose of YSA activities- to put us in a variety of different settings where we have an opportunity to open ourselves up and form bonds of friendship. It works best when the activities are varied, because everyone then gets a chance to really engage in something they find particularly interesting. You find people who share your interests and get to break past the barriers by expressing your enthusiasms.

you know what judominja? you sound exactly like me quite scarey actually except as i explained above i went from somewhat social to not social lol. if your in your 20s and female match made in heaven here lol.

Thanks, but a match is about much more than being similar socially. Forming friendships on one point of similarity is certainly possible, but a "match" is even more complicated than a friendship with many many more factors at play. And just like forming friendships, identifying and understanding those factors requires practice .

[kayne]

Thanks, but a match is about much more than being similar socially. Forming friendships on one point of similarity is certainly possible, but a "match" is even more complicated than a friendship with many many more factors at play. And just like forming friendships, identifying and understanding those factors requires practice .

yes tis was a joke. internet humor i hope you got it lol

Just some more thoughts I have on the whole "How are you?" "I'm fine, how are you?" greeting-

If both respond with the standard "I'm fine", that meets the social expectations for politeness while working as a signal that for whatever reason you are not interested in moving the conversation any further. So, the awkwardness you are experiencing is probably because you gave this standard response, but would like to continue the conversation with something more meaningful.

If you would like to pursue a conversation, then when someone asks "How are you?" a better response than "I'm fine" would be something more "honest" and detailed, but not too detailed. Give them a little tid-bit as to how you are feeling or how your day is going, and if they are also interested in pursuing the conversation, they will latch onto it and either share something from their end or ask you questions so that you can extrapolate. If they are not interested, they will say something to again meet the standards of politeness but get out of the conversation.

yea its true. i think i may go with that. i've given this alot thought in the past month. i think i am just going to stop caring. if people find me cynical and sarcastic so freakin be it. i may have to tell myself that for a little while but i suppose as long as i get to it sooner or later then all is well. i do admit the years of porn completely wrecked my ability to interact with the opposite sex....so that might need a little more work but consquences for my actions i suppose. either way i have seriously been contemplating how to kind of come out of my shell a bit. of course i say this here online whether i do it or not or how successful i am are entirely two different things. geez why cant i be this talkative offline.

I don't remember the exact percentages, but a huge amount of our communication is through body language while only a small amount is the actual words we use. Understanding the subtlties, double-meanings, hints, etc. will require studying body language, facial expressions, eye contact, etc. I think this is why it is easier for me to understand what people are communicating and pick up on the subtleties you seem to be missing- because my background in studying animals made it easier for me to recognize this body language.

Animals are also big on body language, especically our pets when trying to communicate with us. They can't speak English, so they have to get their point across somehow, and all their signals are ampllified. I pick up on animal signals so easily that I can usually identify what they are communicating without even realizing how I know, but it's because I've practiced. If I want to gain that same famiiliarity with people, I need to practice more with them.

One thing I can tell you is that there is always going to be a combination of factors working together in order to communicate something. The more you can identify and understand these multiple signals, the better you will understand the overall message being conveyed. You may even find yourself identifiying the "hidden" signals that communicate things people aren't really trying to tell you. This can sometimes help, because you may pick up on how someone is feeling without them coming out and telling you- and if you bring it up and show interest this person will be more likely to start a conversation with you, as noticing it is a sign you care.

yea in that sociology marriage class we mentioned thats a pretty big amount. women are especially prone to body language cues. i admit i probably suck at this and this needs the most help. you know its quite funny anytime weve had a dog ive picked up on their body language just fine its those pesky humans that bug me

If you think of it as faking or lying, that is just going to make it harder. While I often feel like surface interactions are "fake", they aren't really. People communicate many things through their simple and "boring" conversations that has far more to do with the words they are saying or topics they are discussing. How much you engage will depend on how much interest you are able to build in yourself. I can get a relationship to that halfway point between associate and friend with no problem, because I can understand the subtlties of greetings and body language well enough to do so. The "small talk" that makes up the next step though is more complicated and where I tend to get lost, because I really have no interest in small talk, and I'm not skilled enough at picking up on the under-the-surface communications they entail.

All of my friendships kind of skipped over this phase. I found myself engage in settings or with people who were extroverted enough that small talk wasn't necessary. The best way to skip over this is to get invovled in things where you have to be active. The activity itself helps form a bond and gives you a shared interest to talk about that can be deeper and more meaningful than small talk.

lol same here. i tend to either really like a person and steamroll forward or i dont. this girl i mentioned in this thread is probably the only example i can think of where i didnt do that and we kind of progressed forward. but not at a super speed yet somehow became friends. and its all really entirely confusing and very out of my comfort zone. oh yes and years of porn have as i said wrecked my female interaction skills that i am still trying to repair. heck my social skills in general are probably pretty shot due to porn.

yea you think just like me on these surface interactions. i suppose i really should stop being so cynical about it but i admit that is hard. i have seen to many phony fake surface interactions with people that were generally out for blood. working at a customer service desk will basically teach you all surface interactions are fake. all these people want you dead over every and anything so you kind of learn greetings are fake. unfortunently i did that for so long while recovering from various other problems i think i may of become too cynical or just assume it is all fake. so far i am not sure how to change my mind on the subject. clearly something i need to work on.

I think it is only the truly extroverted people that don't have trouble making "new" friends. We all make friends easily when we are younger and tend to hold on to those friendships for a long long time, IF we stick around those friends and continue to do things together. The friendship usually doesn't start falling apart until we start coming of age and separating because of our different interests. The fact that you moved as a child and had to make all new friends meant you had to work hard to step into already solid friendships and re-establish yourself. I moved quite a bit growing up, and I think this is why I lost interest in socializing- it was too hard to keep forming new friendships over and over and there were other things to capture my interest that I could engage in.

Making new friends is a very slow process without something to help facilitate it. This is kind of the purpose of YSA activities- to put us in a variety of different settings where we have an opportunity to open ourselves up and form bonds of friendship. It works best when the activities are varied, because everyone then gets a chance to really engage in something they find particularly interesting. You find people who share your interests and get to break past the barriers by expressing your enthusiasms.

true enough. i do wonder how those extroverted people maintain that many friendships at once. i also wonder how sincere these friendships are as they seem to come and go so fast and easily. a problem with YSA is being a slow friend maker and more interested in something more meaningful everyone is coming and going so much it is hard to establish that. of course more quite folks like myself arent always into ward activities so we dont always stumble across each other by our very natures. i also wonder how said bonds form so fast and easily.

and its true i think thats how i had a crowd of people before in school we just stuck around each other year after year after year.

you know though ive thought about this topic a lot in the past month. quite honestly i realized i am clueless at this. i also realized i have spent such a vast amount of effort overcoming other things(you know porn, drugs, stealing, depressiong etc) that somewhere i lost this socializing skill. also a lot of the edge and nerve needed to do those things i lost too. i became entirely too quite and gun shy as a result and i need to find some happy middle ground. i also think living with roommates is getting on my last nerve and having a kitchen that looks like hell is sickening as well as a few other things. one of which is i have no alone time to recover even with my door shut it can still get noisey. i just feel uncomfortable and out of place. quite frankly though i have no idea how to fix this. it seems i am stuck here till i get my degree at the very minimum. this is also making video games really take on center stage of my habits and what i do because i have nothing else to do in my spare time. between school and a church service mission i cannot afford to work and go half and half with my folks for a place of my own and escape the insanity. i feel stuck and trapped with really no way out so i am stuck here trying to be a more happy outgoing social person but on the inside i come home to a place i am learning to truely despise. the place i call home right now is the place i hate the most. i feel stuck and my mental health and probably physical health(you know rotting crap in the kitchen) is likely taking a toll on me. yet i cannot see any other choice. the only two reasons i keep going forward are school ill have a degree and the church service mission which i am not always able to go as much as i want too. with my rampant insomnia it is rough to do that and school on 0 sleep i keep trying to go bed on time or earlier but it just doesnt want to work. so i am stuck here trying to figure out how to interact and socialize because boy do i need out of this apartment but doing so while somewhat miserable on the inside.

though i do have somewhat of a plan. i am really going to committ to home teaching this semester hopefully my companion is down for it. i am going to do ward choir so sure only 30 minutes extra but it makes you feel good. possibly basketball during the week. and when i am here i am going to try and bury myself in school now that i am not sick anymore so video games can stop taking a full center stage to my bordem. i also intend to goto the temple at least once a week. tuesday will be this week. saturday was last week. so i will have that down. also really crack down on daily scripture reading.

sure it doesnt sound like a lot but i am seriously attempting to escape the boredom and miserableness of living here. my biggest problem will probably be concentration my brain can wander quite easily. though someone did suggest the idea of doing homework at school and not the apartment. i may try that idea plus it will get me out of this apartment which should help with the mental health. i think i am just going to try and improve my mental health. i spent the past many years stopping bad habits among other things that i completely ignored my mental health and state of mind and even my spiritual health by adopting the attitude at least i am not doing drugs anymore so i didnt worry about my mental health.

you know i also had a strange realization i didnt think i would have. talking to someone today...ok talking to someone and earlier apologizing to that girl and kind of being more open so i think in essence agreeing relationship is not what we want but making our friendship better and then talking to someone else later too i kind of just had an opening up day and realized a few things i think had i not opened up to her i wouldnt of opened up later in the day as i think it set my mood for the day. one of which is R rated movies rot the brain at least too much of it does. ive come to realize the truely vile and extreme ones have completely wrecked havoc. its like if i watched another of the extremely psychotice variety my brain would have to go into recovery mode as if unable to process anymore of the drug its been getting fed for ages. i do want to be clear and say i mean extremely raunchy off the walls psychotic stuff that has been a guilty pleasure for a while now. but due to some experiences ive the vileness of that does not even compare so i did not think it a big deal but today i talking to someone i realized you know what this is an unhealthy drug that is just wreaking my brain. its come to the point where i could watch several of these in a row and now one good one will do me in for like a month or two. its like i think i need weeks of recovery. my poor brain ive been feeding it junkie stimulation for years now and i didnt realize how badly years of that would end up coming to bite me in the butt i dont mean just casual R rated movies or stuff like say underworld or halo which isnt too terrible. but i truely mean the most vile of things. add porn which is already rather vile to the mix as well. i think i may just have to go in the total opposite direction for a while as i have little ability left to guage what is truely rotten and what is not though i can kind of tell somethings are truely rotten so i will avoid it.

to be fair ill give you some credit too. i dont think it completely hit me until i was replying to you. took talking to a third person today for me to really stumble across something golden. so thanks for your role in this.

i really cannot beleive i just had this realization i am quite shocked to be honest. dont know why i am prophets have certainly said be weary of R rated smut for years now. but still i am quite shocked it is just finnally dawning on me.

i was hoping major self improvement projects were done for a while i guess i not. i do admit i am burned out by them. so i guess mental and spiritual health is my next self improvement project.

Edited January 30, 2012 by kayne

[Dravin]

I don't remember the exact percentages, but a huge amount of our communication is through body language while only a small amount is the actual words we use.

And tone, or are you shelving that under body language?

"I love you" can, in a large part depending on tone, be:

1) A sincere declaration of love.

2) An admission of approval

3) A response to hearing "I love you" with little meaning beyond ritual.

4) A sarcastic declaration intended to indicate disapproval.

And of course many a statement is changed into a question simply by using a rising intonation (at least in some languages).

I say largely because the only time our communications lack body language is when we're on the phone, much like how the only time they lack tone is when it's a written medium. Actually the latter part is why emoticons/smilies/tags* are fairly common. They are a way of infusing an otherwise tone and body language devoid communication medium with that additional layer. It's about as subtle as a hammer when we do so but it works to some degree.

*If you don't know what I mean:

[Keanu Reeves]

Whoa!

[/Keanu Reeves]

Edited January 30, 2012 by Dravin

[JudoMinja]

Kayne-

Self-improvement projects never end, because the more we improve the more we see more areas where we can improve. When you stop working on self improvement, you find yourself either stuck in a rut or sliding backwards, so identifying areas where you can improve and then working on them is a very good thing. It keeps us moving forward, which is what I think the Savior cares the most about- are we improving? Doesn't matter where we currently stand- is that stance in a better place than where we were yesterday? That is what counts.

It sounds like you've been letting quite a bit of negativity, garbage, and filth into your life, so it is no wonder you see things in a negative light. What we put in is what will come out. It's good that you recognize that and want to work on changing it. It will be pretty much impossible to avoid everything negative, as the world is full of it, but we all have to find a place where we are comfortable and not letting the negativity affect us- be in the world but not of the world. What is important is that we take charge of the amount of filth entering our lives that we can control- like your issue with the R-rated movies. You can control that by deciding beforehand what you will and will not watch. You can control what music you listen to by limiting what you purchase or what radio stations you tune into. Etc.

Just a small example- I like listening to the Christian radio station KLOVE because the DJs are always so positive, share positive news stories, put a positive spin on things, give positive feedback and advice to callers, etc. The Christian music is great to listen to also, but sometimes it gets old because they play the same stuff over and over, and I like a wide variety of music. One day I decided to change the station as I was in the mood for something different, and I noticed a big difference in the DJs on the other station- they weren't saying anything bad really. Weren't being raunchy or anything necessarily wrong. But one of their fun news sections was to identify "stupid things stupid people do". They came up with some "stupid" stories, and they basically cut people down for what they'd done that was so stupid. After listening to KLOVE so much, that little bit of negativity really had an effect on me, and I decided to change the station back.

The more you bring positivie things inside, the more you will be able to send positive things out. And it is up to you to take charge of that by deciding what you will filter out of your life, and what you will get yourself actively involved in that is positive. You need to do more than just cut out the bad- you need to bring in the good. It sounds like you have a good plan, and I wish you the best. I really think that working on building a more positive outlook on the world will see a big improvement in your socialization efforts.

And tone, or are you shelving that under body language?

"I love you" can, in a large part depending on tone, be:

1) A sincere declaration of love.

2) An admission of approval

3) A response to hearing "I love you" with little meaning beyond ritual.

4) A sarcastic declaration intended to indicate disapproval.

And of course many a statement is changed into a question simply by using a rising intonation (at least in some languages).

I say largely because the only time our communications lack body language is when we're on the phone, much like how the only time they lack tone is when it's a written medium. Actually the latter part is why emoticons/smilies/tags* are fairly common. They are a way of infusing an otherwise tone and body language devoid communication medium with that additional layer. It's about as subtle as a hammer when we do so but it works to some degree.

*If you don't know what I mean:

[Keanu Reeves]

Whoa!

[/Keanu Reeves]

I thought I should mention tone separately, but I did kinda lump it in with body language . Basically, the actual words entail very very little of the message, and we have to interpret what someone is telling us based on all these other communications tied into it. Punctuation somewhat conveys tone in writing, and skilled writers can incorporate a "voice" through their writing style and word choice, but as you said, tone is for the most part absent from the written word.

[kayne]

yea im aware self improvement is never ending. however i only intended to really ever tackle extremely important ones. however i was just simply so exhausted from the huge one in so many other areas of my life. seeing another just wore me out. im fully content with a lot of self improvement coming gradually overtime however i think this one is a more pressing focus alot of effort on it at once. i think with this one when it is accomplished i will have finnally hit a more content point as prior to this i had already spent 4 or 5 years really self improving. so i think with this i think i might be able to put that effort elsewhere when i am done with this project as i cant afford to constantly devote large chunks of time to self improvement forever and ever. life demands i do other things. for instance socialize and date and school. and large self improvement projects like this are extremely taxing and time consuming. granted theyare a good benefit however i think with this it will be closer to 6 years of doing this in the past 8 years. it should be about time to move or look towards a different stage of my life. at least i hope so. so with that said i think by May sometime i can accomplish this task. hopefully no later than June. Ive done this plenty in the past so ive got a fairly good handle on how to do it if i truely set my mind to it. ill just need to keep up the maintence from that point on.

however it isnt really just R rated movies. its a combo of a ton of things. i guess everything became so extreme. i just never stopped to think i should repair some of the damage. and because of stuff it just never was as bad as other stuff before....so its weird i never thought it to be a huge a deal. but i guess it finnally dawned on me rather odd. i guess just at no other time have i really desired to live a Celestial law i guess thats why its finnally dawning on me.

i too noticed that about music ages ago. its one reason i dont listen to a lot of music and i didnt really listen to a lot of music before hand. however regardless i never want to get to a point where i cannot handle said crazyness though im fairly certain that wont happen. im scarred for life in that regard. alot of modern music is so freakin depressing.ive become a talk radio nut instead even then i rarely have a chance to listen to that.

i will say this there is a chunk of my negative views that are based firmly on reality. i also refuse to trust people enough to leave my door unlocked. and i do refuse to trust just any and everyone. so for that and other things i will retain some of my negative outlook it is crucial to survive. but scaling down on some of the non crucial parts...yea ill see what i can do. ill be sorting this out in the coming weeks as i weed through what is what exactly.

im still in the process of figuring out what this will entail exactly. also the internet is somewhat more boring after just 1 day....im going to have to figure out something to fill that void sooner or later. hmm well we shall see exactly what this entails. while i wrote out a nice plan im prone to altering that quite a bit. my brain will take a few days to fully process a full plan of attack and a little longer to fully kick into high gear.

[JudoMinja]

yea im aware self improvement is never ending. however i only intended to really ever tackle extremely important ones. however i was just simply so exhausted from the huge one in so many other areas of my life. seeing another just wore me out. im fully content with a lot of self improvement coming gradually overtime however i think this one is a more pressing focus alot of effort on it at once. i think with this one when it is accomplished i will have finnally hit a more content point as prior to this i had already spent 4 or 5 years really self improving. so i think with this i think i might be able to put that effort elsewhere when i am done with this project as i cant afford to constantly devote large chunks of time to self improvement forever and ever. life demands i do other things. for instance socialize and date and school. and large self improvement projects like this are extremely taxing and time consuming. granted theyare a good benefit however i think with this it will be closer to 6 years of doing this in the past 8 years. it should be about time to move or look towards a different stage of my life. at least i hope so. so with that said i think by May sometime i can accomplish this task. hopefully no later than June. Ive done this plenty in the past so ive got a fairly good handle on how to do it if i truely set my mind to it. ill just need to keep up the maintence from that point on.

It sounds like you view self-improvement projects the way many people view diets- a temporary change where you deprive yourself of all the things you like and enjoy so that you can lose weight and get in shape. Once you've reached your goal though, you end your diet and end up right back where you started, having to diet all over again.

Try to remove the idea of a diet from your vocabulary- in every sense of the word, not just having to do with food. Instead of going on a spiritual diet, make a lifestyle change. This is a slower and steady process, but more permanant, more fulfilling, and more rewarding. Build in yourself the good habits and things that will help you be a more positive person. I guarantee you that focusing on self-improvement thinking of it as a permanent lifestyle change will lead you to more successful interactions with others. It may seem backwards that working on yourself helps you form friendships, because you aren't really working on forming friendships, but I've seen it at work in my own life.

It's a lot like this scripture- "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." (Matthew 16:25). It's talking about losing ourselves in service, charity, and Christ-like work, so it's not directly tied into self-improvement, but improving our character is certainly part of becoming more Christ-like. When we lose ourselves in that effort for improvement, our cares and worries fall behind, and we find ourselves filled with joys we never would have anticipated.

I think it is normal to take large improvements and leaps forward in lumps, and then we kind of slack off for a while until we realize we have another leap to make, which sounds like what you're describing. However, it sounds like you are equating it to something you can "accomplish" and be "done". That it takes up all your time and energy so that you cannot do the other things you need to do, you exhaust yourself doing it and then have to give up- like an all consuming diet that you force yourself to strictly follow until you just can't take it any more.

We work on ourselves slowly, bit by bit- "line upon line, precept upon precept". You will see the most improvement in your life if you work on the little things that don't exhaust you and take all your focus. Build up on small improvements one at a time, turning them into habits and then adding on more once the first ones no longer feel like work. There is a reason many people claim they finally found a spouse once they stopped concentrating on looking so hard- its because people are quickly and easily attracted to the confidence of a self-aware and motivated individual.

I've often mentioned to others that I believe many people look for relationships because they are expecting the other person to "complete" them, and fix where they are broken. When we are single, we often feel incomplete, unwhole, and as though there is a large void we cannot fill. We expect our relationships to fill those empty spaces and make us whole, but when people approach friendships or dating in this way, they often end up disappointed, and leaving the relationship feeling even more empty than they did before getting into it.

A truly great relationship is for someone who feels whole all on their own- someone with the strength and fortitude to take charge of their life and do what they need to do to make their lives better completely independantly. They then find someone who is also "whole", and together the two wholes make an even greater one, and they can positively reinforce one another and build on their improvements.

Of course, nobody is perfect, and I think we all fall somewhere in the middle ground of these two examples.

however it isnt really just R rated movies. its a combo of a ton of things. i guess everything became so extreme. i just never stopped to think i should repair some of the damage. and because of stuff it just never was as bad as other stuff before....so its weird i never thought it to be a huge a deal. but i guess it finnally dawned on me rather odd. i guess just at no other time have i really desired to live a Celestial law i guess thats why its finnally dawning on me.

i too noticed that about music ages ago. its one reason i dont listen to a lot of music and i didnt really listen to a lot of music before hand. however regardless i never want to get to a point where i cannot handle said crazyness though im fairly certain that wont happen. im scarred for life in that regard. alot of modern music is so freakin depressing.ive become a talk radio nut instead even then i rarely have a chance to listen to that.

It's amazing how much we don't even realize what effect things have on us, until we are exposed to a situation that really helps us reflect. I've been where you are right now, as far as feeling depressed about your living situation, recovering from a porn addiction, and having frequently exposed yourself to the "filth" of much of today's media. I too, felt like it was just part of my life and wasn't really affecting me as strongly as it was... Until I was given an opportunity to realize how depressed and negative I'd become, how lonely and unmotivated. It wasn't any big obvious outward difference. To my friends, I seemed to be pretty much the same. But inside I felt very very different, and I didn't like it. I wanted the happiness and the brightness back. So I did what needed to be done to make the changes.

There are still some things I could work on, areas I could improve, and I am always trying to be better than I was the day before. But I am now very selective about what I allow into my life, and it is much easier for me to have a positive outlook and have a brighter hope for the future. Sometimes, just looking for the good instead of the bad is all it takes.

i will say this there is a chunk of my negative views that are based firmly on reality. i also refuse to trust people enough to leave my door unlocked. and i do refuse to trust just any and everyone. so for that and other things i will retain some of my negative outlook it is crucial to survive. but scaling down on some of the non crucial parts...yea ill see what i can do. ill be sorting this out in the coming weeks as i weed through what is what exactly.

im still in the process of figuring out what this will entail exactly. also the internet is somewhat more boring after just 1 day....im going to have to figure out something to fill that void sooner or later. hmm well we shall see exactly what this entails. while i wrote out a nice plan im prone to altering that quite a bit. my brain will take a few days to fully process a full plan of attack and a little longer to fully kick into high gear.

I agree that there is quite a bit of bad out there and we need to be prepared for it- be aware and do what it takes to protect ourselves. I don't see anything wrong with being a "realist", but I think that is very different from being a "cinic". A realist sees things as they are and does something about it. While a cinic seeks out the bad in order to complain about it. A realist recognizes what they can and cannot control, lets go of the things they can't and does something about the things they can. A cinic makes no distinction as far as what can be controlled and claims that "all is lost" because things are so bad. A realist tries it make changes while maintaining a good head on their shoulders and realizing their influence will be limited. A cinic just doesn't care and has no hope for the future.

I certainly understand the boredom that follows when you cut out things you used to do. That is when you need to find good things to fill the empty spaces, get more active and involved, and find positive things to help build and instill that new positive attitude. :) It's hard to stay negative when you surround yourself with good positive things. Volunteer work is a great way to get involved, and there are so many options for how to do so within the church and within the community- the Bishops storehouse, soup kitchens, be a helper at public schools, animal shelters, homeless shelters, retirement centers, special needs programs, etc. Just do some general searches for ways to get involved with volunteer work in your local community, and I bet you'll be surprised what you'll find, and get a whole new outlook on life that will help you improve your mindset and overcome your struggles.

[kayne]

It sounds like you view self-improvement projects the way many people view diets- a temporary change where you deprive yourself of all the things you like and enjoy so that you can lose weight and get in shape. Once you've reached your goal though, you end your diet and end up right back where you started, having to diet all over again.

Try to remove the idea of a diet from your vocabulary- in every sense of the word, not just having to do with food. Instead of going on a spiritual diet, make a lifestyle change. This is a slower and steady process, but more permanant, more fulfilling, and more rewarding. Build in yourself the good habits and things that will help you be a more positive person. I guarantee you that focusing on self-improvement thinking of it as a permanent lifestyle change will lead you to more successful interactions with others. It may seem backwards that working on yourself helps you form friendships, because you aren't really working on forming friendships, but I've seen it at work in my own life.

hmm i suppose it might sound like that. but no i do noit mean that. what i mean is and by and large my point of this current effort is this. for instance take porn. to overcome that required at least 5 hours a day of spiritual devotion at least for me. however i was also overcoming a lot of other stuff kind of at the same time. however i did succeed and these are not problems anymore. but i have no plan of upkeep. while 5 hours a day was no longer neccessary i didnt neccessarly take care or stick to any kind of schedule of upkeep. one day i might not read the scriptures. one day i might reed for 10 minutes. another for an hour. temple visits became irregular. i took little care to what my brain watched and read. the intial problems were gone but i didnt maintain anything. so this plan is largely a plan of getting back to that point but then maintaining so maybe not 5 hours a day but ya know a more a regular schedule. weekly temple trips. a more regular scripture reading. a more careful notice of what i read and watch. kind of like cleaning the house upkeep is 15 minutes a day. failure to do it for months is an entire weekend gone. my point here is to do the weekend clean but in the process get an upkeep going. i basically then jumped straight into school after all of that. as i said before part of my realization i had the other night was i failed to stop and recover. so i am feeling some level of burnout.

just out of desperation i had to binge clean every day. i succeeded got tired as it was a ton of work and just sort of floundered around.

I think it is normal to take large improvements and leaps forward in lumps, and then we kind of slack off for a while until we realize we have another leap to make, which sounds like what you're describing. However, it sounds like you are equating it to something you can "accomplish" and be "done". That it takes up all your time and energy so that you cannot do the other things you need to do, you exhaust yourself doing it and then have to give up- like an all consuming diet that you force yourself to strictly follow until you just can't take it any more.

i hope the lesson i intend to learn here is to stick to regular healthy habits but admittely this wasnt a priority. if youve seen the show hoarders you know the priority is toss out the trash form habits later. my life could be described as a hoarder house and i was just killing myself to toss out the trash. while it doesnt look like that again....its not where it should be either. again my goal is to set myself up to clean 15 minutes a day so i dont get to this point again.

I've often mentioned to others that I believe many people look for relationships because they are expecting the other person to "complete" them, and fix where they are broken. When we are single, we often feel incomplete, unwhole, and as though there is a large void we cannot fill. We expect our relationships to fill those empty spaces and make us whole, but when people approach friendships or dating in this way, they often end up disappointed, and leaving the relationship feeling even more empty than they did before getting into it.

ive noticed this too. i admit the singles ward mentality and before that really the lack of dating in the past 10 years also is starting to get to me and in general this entire city of provo-orem has this marriage atomsphere. one reason i havent dated in like 10 years besides a few dates in the past few months is my life was a wreck and i had little desire to sucker anyone into joining it. and eventually porn reared its ugly head and i didnt want anyone joining in my "communion with Satan" as one person describes porn. i admit i had that complete me attitude but ive questioned whether it is correct or not. i had begun to suspect it was not correct.

also in hindsight i think moving away for a while for school and what not will make this change possible. i dont think if i was at home i could maintain a friendship with those people and change myself as much like i had to do in the past tell 100 people to bug off(except in cuss word form of course) because its hard to stop smoking pot while hanging with potheads all day. so at least this way i can maintain those friends while not actually having to see them and be exposed to that environment constantly. as when i first moved out here i thought it was for the best but ive generally hated it here so ive questioned that revelation trying to figure it out. i am beginning to see if i was back home i would never be able to set myself up to live a Celestial Law because i would be stuck with the same people. but here i can avoid that heartache and still set myself up to live however i see fit.

It's amazing how much we don't even realize what effect things have on us, until we are exposed to a situation that really helps us reflect. I've been where you are right now, as far as feeling depressed about your living situation, recovering from a porn addiction, and having frequently exposed yourself to the "filth" of much of today's media. I too, felt like it was just part of my life and wasn't really affecting me as strongly as it was... Until I was given an opportunity to realize how depressed and negative I'd become, how lonely and unmotivated. It wasn't any big obvious outward difference. To my friends, I seemed to be pretty much the same. But inside I felt very very different, and I didn't like it. I wanted the happiness and the brightness back. So I did what needed to be done to make the changes.

same here lol. to my friends back home i seem the same mostly. on the inside i have been dieing for a while. struggling with where i want to be and what i am always exposed to are constantly clashing. and the thing is that filth hardly compares to hardcore porn so it is really easy to say at least its not hardcore porn. or in my case at least isnt a number of other things that shame hardcore porn.

I agree that there is quite a bit of bad out there and we need to be prepared for it- be aware and do what it takes to protect ourselves. I don't see anything wrong with being a "realist", but I think that is very different from being a "cinic". A realist sees things as they are and does something about it. While a cinic seeks out the bad in order to complain about it. A realist recognizes what they can and cannot control, lets go of the things they can't and does something about the things they can. A cinic makes no distinction as far as what can be controlled and claims that "all is lost" because things are so bad. A realist tries it make changes while maintaining a good head on their shoulders and realizing their influence will be limited. A cinic just doesn't care and has no hope for the future.

a nice descripition there really.

I certainly understand the boredom that follows when you cut out things you used to do. That is when you need to find good things to fill the empty spaces, get more active and involved, and find positive things to help build and instill that new positive attitude. It's hard to stay negative when you surround yourself with good positive things. Volunteer work is a great way to get involved, and there are so many options for how to do so within the church and within the community- the Bishops storehouse, soup kitchens, be a helper at public schools, animal shelters, homeless shelters, retirement centers, special needs programs, etc. Just do some general searches for ways to get involved with volunteer work in your local community, and I bet you'll be surprised what you'll find, and get a whole new outlook on life that will help you improve your mindset and overcome your struggles.

yea true. for now i am just occupying my interenet time i might of spent reading while eating instead reading garbage just reading one of the 10000 general conference talks. i am finding myself rather hungry for it even when i was recovering through all the other aforementioned stuff i never found myself quite starving and hungering for this stuff the way i feel it now. though one of my teachers this semester is doing nothing but tossing brain rotting filth into my brain. so this sort of conflicts with my current goals but it is school im not sure there is a lot i can do about that. though since i did get sick at the beginning of the semester i did fall behind. i may drop a class and hers is the likely one if i did do that. also fixing my brain here is really killing my concentration too on anything but this.

i am somewhat amazed at what i have figured out in the past two days really.